Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ - OHIO ST.

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Poison

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Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #300 on: September 22, 2017, 06:35:17 PM »
I hope Dixon and Trimble can carry the load next year, cause that will be our backcourt.

Where do you think LoVett and Ponds are going to go? They're not NBA players. Maybe one day, but they're not even close right now.

Poison

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Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #301 on: September 22, 2017, 06:44:17 PM »
Looks like re-upping matt was pretty silly at this point.  Going on two years in a row with minimal impact.

Who recruited Ponds, Lovett, Yawke, Ahmed, Wilson, Brown, Owens, Clark, Simon, Keita, Trimble and Roberts? Tony Chiles?

Shouldn't the line be drawn on actually playing ball here? Brown will never play here. Wilson will never play here. This isn't a class that's being asked to replace to an entire roster like Lavin was forced to. There was no need to take the chances that the staff took.

If they just grabbed a couple of lunch pail tough guys to rebound the damn ball, we'd be a tournament team this year. At what point do you acknowledge that by comparison, Lavin and his staff, despite their short comings, were better at this?

Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #302 on: September 22, 2017, 06:47:29 PM »
Missing out on Luther definitely hurts, but this year's team is still the team we expected, minus Sid Wilson. Still time for a late addition this year and definitely time to add a piece or two for 2018.

Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #303 on: September 22, 2017, 07:25:55 PM »
Give me guys like Charles Minlind, Tyrone Grant, Lamont Middleton, Lavor Postell.....none were 5 star kids. We sometime suffer from unrealistic  expectations, we are not going to have a run like nova, gonzaga or like butler did. we can hope to make some noise on an occasional season. If we can grab a transfer/Juco player here and there add him to guys who develope over a couple of years and take it from there. Recruiting 5 star kids from ny or outside is a waste of resources (and I hate to say that)

Poison

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Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #304 on: September 22, 2017, 09:34:16 PM »
Give me guys like Charles Minlind, Tyrone Grant, Lamont Middleton, Lavor Postell.....none were 5 star kids. We sometime suffer from unrealistic  expectations, we are not going to have a run like nova, gonzaga or like butler did. we can hope to make some noise on an occasional season. If we can grab a transfer/Juco player here and there add him to guys who develope over a couple of years and take it from there. Recruiting 5 star kids from ny or outside is a waste of resources (and I hate to say that)

Lavor Postell wasn't a 5 star, but he was a highly ranked recruit. Around #60 nationally, but even to find a Ty Grant, or a Lamont Middleton the staff has to work harder. Ours hasn't lately.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 09:39:30 PM by Poison »

Tha Kid

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Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #305 on: September 22, 2017, 09:46:25 PM »
Looks like re-upping matt was pretty silly at this point.  Going on two years in a row with minimal impact.

Who recruited Ponds, Lovett, Yawke, Ahmed, Wilson, Brown, Owens, Clark, Simon, Keita, Trimble and Roberts? Tony Chiles?

Matt did a great job first two years.  Last and this  not so much.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 09:46:45 PM by Tha Kid »
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Foad

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Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #306 on: September 22, 2017, 10:36:06 PM »
Looks like re-upping matt was pretty silly at this point.  Going on two years in a row with minimal impact.

Who recruited Ponds, Lovett, Yawke, Ahmed, Wilson, Brown, Owens, Clark, Simon, Keita, Trimble and Roberts? Tony Chiles?

Matt did a great job first two years.  Last and this  not so much.

Mullin was hired end of March 2015. Its's now mid September 2017. So he's been head coach for about 2.5 years. Which would explain why Matt A hasn't done that good a job recruiting the last four years.

Foad

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Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #307 on: September 22, 2017, 10:46:24 PM »
This isn't a class that's being asked to replace to an entire roster like Lavin was forced to. There was no need to take the chances that the staff took.

What are you talking about? Lavin inherited a tournament team with ten seniors that went on to play professional basketball. Mullin inherited Felix Balamou and Amir Alibagoshit and within two recruiting cycles has assembled more talent than that nice person Lavin did in five years. What are you even talking about? Good grief.

Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #308 on: September 22, 2017, 11:09:22 PM »
This isn't a class that's being asked to replace to an entire roster like Lavin was forced to. There was no need to take the chances that the staff took.

What are you talking about? Lavin inherited a tournament team with ten seniors that went on to play professional basketball. Mullin inherited Felix Balamou and Amir Alibagoshit and within two recruiting cycles has assembled more talent than that nice person Lavin did in five years. What are you even talking about? Good grief.

That's not entirely fair.  The idea that he inherited an NCAA team is based on the fact he took them to the NCAA's not because he inherited a team that played in one prior.  That is a huge difference. Mike Jarvis inherited an NCAA team from Fran, why?  Because they went to the NCAA's the year before and returned Artest, Postell, Ty Grant, Bootsy (who would become eligible) and the top HS PG in the country coming in.  10 seniors or not he inherited a team that went 5-13, 6-12 and 6-12 in the BE in the 3 years prior to his arrival, hardly evidence he inherited an NCAA team.

Furthermore even if you grant the fact that he "inherited an NCAA team" by definition he had to essentially replace an entire roster, you can't blame that on him.  In other words you can't have it both ways, you can't say he inherited all those seniors and then dismiss the fact that he had to replace an entire roster that he inherited.

Furthermore by his 3rd year he had a 8-10 NIT team in a much more difficult conference (cannot compare the current BE to the old BE.  Not even close).  By his 4th year he had arguably the most talented roster at SJU in a long time even without Harkless.  With Harkless it would have been right there with Villanova in the BE imho. This is where you can argue he underachieved and did not do enough.  Because that is where I would agree.  But either way 3 20 win seasons and 4 NIT/NCAA seasons in 5 years is not good enough.  That is fine.  It shouldn't be, we expect to be at a level commensurate with Nova.  No reason they can't.

But Mullin did not inherit a mess of a program.  He needed to rebuild the roster no doubt.  But he is going into his 3rd year, he has forced out a well known assistant, had countless kids transfer, whiffed on most of the top local kids (a huge factor in his hiring was going to be him and his staff's ability to land Alkins, Tucker, Naz Reid, Muhammad etc).  Because again although he deserves credit for rebuilding the roster at the same time he has gotten far too much credit from posters giving him credit for improving from 1  league win to 7.  When you are THAT BAD early it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE not to improve unless you are named Rutgers.  Bottom line is if Lavin were the coach the last 2 years I don't think SJU would have been much worse or in fact worse, my guess is they would have been better specifically 2015-16 (Mullin's first year because I think Lavin would have had some recruits stay-I don't fault Mullin for that however).

The harder part is NOW.  SJU squeezed every possible win out of last year they could.  Most of their losses were blowouts especially in the league.  That is what scares me.  The record can be misleading I look at not just the losses but how competitive they were in those losses as evidence they have it going in the right direction.  The losses were blowouts for the most part, totally non-competitive.  The easy part was going from 1 to 7, the harder part is going from 7 to 10 or 11 and beyond.  He needs to start showing NOW why he and not Lavin not Danny Hurley was the best choice for SJU 2 1/2 years ago. He needs to start showing this year he can do that and then put in the work on the road to capitalize with recruits. 


« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 11:15:07 PM by fordham96 »

Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #309 on: September 22, 2017, 11:27:28 PM »
Steve Lavin's Head Coaching Record at SJU:

21-12
2-2
17-14
20-13
21-12

I'll just leave this here.

Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #310 on: September 22, 2017, 11:40:56 PM »
This isn't a class that's being asked to replace to an entire roster like Lavin was forced to. There was no need to take the chances that the staff took.

What are you talking about? Lavin inherited a tournament team with ten seniors that went on to play professional basketball. Mullin inherited Felix Balamou and Amir Alibagoshit and within two recruiting cycles has assembled more talent than that nice person Lavin did in five years. What are you even talking about? Good grief.

That's not entirely fair.  The idea that he inherited an NCAA team is based on the fact he took them to the NCAA's not because he inherited a team that played in one prior.  That is a huge difference. Mike Jarvis inherited an NCAA team from Fran, why?  Because they went to the NCAA's the year before and returned Artest, Postell, Ty Grant, Bootsy (who would become eligible) and the top HS PG in the country coming in.  10 seniors or not he inherited a team that went 5-13, 6-12 and 6-12 in the BE in the 3 years prior to his arrival, hardly evidence he inherited an NCAA team.

Furthermore even if you grant the fact that he "inherited an NCAA team" by definition he had to essentially replace an entire roster, you can't blame that on him.  In other words you can't have it both ways, you can't say he inherited all those seniors and then dismiss the fact that he had to replace an entire roster that he inherited.

Furthermore by his 3rd year he had a 8-10 NIT team in a much more difficult conference (cannot compare the current BE to the old BE.  Not even close).  By his 4th year he had arguably the most talented roster at SJU in a long time even without Harkless.  With Harkless it would have been right there with Villanova in the BE imho. This is where you can argue he underachieved and did not do enough.  Because that is where I would agree.  But either way 3 20 win seasons and 4 NIT/NCAA seasons in 5 years is not good enough.  That is fine.  It shouldn't be, we expect to be at a level commensurate with Nova.  No reason they can't.

But Mullin did not inherit a mess of a program.  He needed to rebuild the roster no doubt.  But he is going into his 3rd year, he has forced out a well known assistant, had countless kids transfer, whiffed on most of the top local kids (a huge factor in his hiring was going to be him and his staff's ability to land Alkins, Tucker, Naz Reid, Muhammad etc).  Because again although he deserves credit for rebuilding the roster at the same time he has gotten far too much credit from posters giving him credit for improving from 1  league win to 7.  When you are THAT BAD early it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE not to improve unless you are named Rutgers.  Bottom line is if Lavin were the coach the last 2 years I don't think SJU would have been much worse or in fact worse, my guess is they would have been better specifically 2015-16 (Mullin's first year because I think Lavin would have had some recruits stay-I don't fault Mullin for that however).

The harder part is NOW.  SJU squeezed every possible win out of last year they could.  Most of their losses were blowouts especially in the league.  That is what scares me.  The record can be misleading I look at not just the losses but how competitive they were in those losses as evidence they have it going in the right direction.  The losses were blowouts for the most part, totally non-competitive.  The easy part was going from 1 to 7, the harder part is going from 7 to 10 or 11 and beyond.  He needs to start showing NOW why he and not Lavin not Danny Hurley was the best choice for SJU 2 1/2 years ago. He needs to start showing this year he can do that and then put in the work on the road to capitalize with recruits. 



This. Haven't always agreed with Fordham and Dinkins but lately they have been knocking them out of the park ala Judge and Stanton.

Poison

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Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #311 on: September 22, 2017, 11:49:44 PM »
Steve Lavin's Head Coaching Record at SJU:

21-12
2-2
17-14
20-13
21-12

I'll just leave this here.

Overall, it was disappointing, but I guess the devil you know comes to mind. I never wanted Mullin. It's a risk the program would never recovery from if he ever had to be fired. It seems like he's not a coach on an upswing in the eyes of recruits. They are avoiding him like the plague. Recruits were drawn to him. He didn't always make the best choices in terms of character, but no one had a record before they came to STJ. That's more than we can say for Norm & Mullin.

Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #312 on: September 23, 2017, 12:13:48 AM »
This isn't a class that's being asked to replace to an entire roster like Lavin was forced to. There was no need to take the chances that the staff took.

What are you talking about? Lavin inherited a tournament team with ten seniors that went on to play professional basketball. Mullin inherited Felix Balamou and Amir Alibagoshit and within two recruiting cycles has assembled more talent than that nice person Lavin did in five years. What are you even talking about? Good grief.

That's not entirely fair.  The idea that he inherited an NCAA team is based on the fact he took them to the NCAA's not because he inherited a team that played in one prior.  That is a huge difference. Mike Jarvis inherited an NCAA team from Fran, why?  Because they went to the NCAA's the year before and returned Artest, Postell, Ty Grant, Bootsy (who would become eligible) and the top HS PG in the country coming in.  10 seniors or not he inherited a team that went 5-13, 6-12 and 6-12 in the BE in the 3 years prior to his arrival, hardly evidence he inherited an NCAA team.

Furthermore even if you grant the fact that he "inherited an NCAA team" by definition he had to essentially replace an entire roster, you can't blame that on him.  In other words you can't have it both ways, you can't say he inherited all those seniors and then dismiss the fact that he had to replace an entire roster that he inherited.

Furthermore by his 3rd year he had a 8-10 NIT team in a much more difficult conference (cannot compare the current BE to the old BE.  Not even close).  By his 4th year he had arguably the most talented roster at SJU in a long time even without Harkless.  With Harkless it would have been right there with Villanova in the BE imho. This is where you can argue he underachieved and did not do enough.  Because that is where I would agree.  But either way 3 20 win seasons and 4 NIT/NCAA seasons in 5 years is not good enough.  That is fine.  It shouldn't be, we expect to be at a level commensurate with Nova.  No reason they can't.

But Mullin did not inherit a mess of a program.  He needed to rebuild the roster no doubt.  But he is going into his 3rd year, he has forced out a well known assistant, had countless kids transfer, whiffed on most of the top local kids (a huge factor in his hiring was going to be him and his staff's ability to land Alkins, Tucker, Naz Reid, Muhammad etc).  Because again although he deserves credit for rebuilding the roster at the same time he has gotten far too much credit from posters giving him credit for improving from 1  league win to 7.  When you are THAT BAD early it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE not to improve unless you are named Rutgers.  Bottom line is if Lavin were the coach the last 2 years I don't think SJU would have been much worse or in fact worse, my guess is they would have been better specifically 2015-16 (Mullin's first year because I think Lavin would have had some recruits stay-I don't fault Mullin for that however).

The harder part is NOW.  SJU squeezed every possible win out of last year they could.  Most of their losses were blowouts especially in the league.  That is what scares me.  The record can be misleading I look at not just the losses but how competitive they were in those losses as evidence they have it going in the right direction.  The losses were blowouts for the most part, totally non-competitive.  The easy part was going from 1 to 7, the harder part is going from 7 to 10 or 11 and beyond.  He needs to start showing NOW why he and not Lavin not Danny Hurley was the best choice for SJU 2 1/2 years ago. He needs to start showing this year he can do that and then put in the work on the road to capitalize with recruits. 



This. Haven't always agreed with Fordham and Dinkins but lately they have been knocking them out of the park ala Judge and Stanton.

Haha!  +1


Johnny23

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Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #314 on: September 23, 2017, 08:33:00 AM »
Some interesting quotes from the article:

"The perception exists that the recruiting structure at St. John’s is different from that of most high-major programs, that Abdelmassih does most of the recruiting. But Mullin said the entire staff chips in. In the Twitter and recruiting-crazy age, everyone knows who is seeing whom. It has become more than a one-man job."

“Very few, if any, staffs operate like St. John’s,” Slater said. “To a degree, it puts them at a competitive disadvantage.”


Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #315 on: September 23, 2017, 08:35:33 AM »
Great article from Zach that pretty much sums up our current state. Are there issues that need to be addressed? Yes. (Zack Brown, Sid Wilson, Luther, lack of Mullin involvement) Is it time to panic? No. The results on the court this season will dictate quite a bit.

The minute Matt secured Owens I kind of knew that the transfer game would be our strategy to rebuild and I'm fine with that until we see some real success on the court. Hopefully we can roll some winning into 4 or possibly 5 star high school kid(s). 

Tha Kid

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Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #316 on: September 23, 2017, 08:49:30 AM »
Looks like re-upping matt was pretty silly at this point.  Going on two years in a row with minimal impact.

Who recruited Ponds, Lovett, Yawke, Ahmed, Wilson, Brown, Owens, Clark, Simon, Keita, Trimble and Roberts? Tony Chiles?

Matt did a great job first two years.  Last and this  not so much.

Mullin was hired end of March 2015. Its's now mid September 2017. So he's been head coach for about 2.5 years. Which would explain why Matt A hasn't done that good a job recruiting the last four years.

Last seasons recruiting is for this season - year 3.  This seasons recruiting is for next season - year 4.  And many teams already have good players signed on.  But don't let the facts get in the way of your quips.
"I drink and I know things"

Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #317 on: September 23, 2017, 09:14:17 AM »
 it's about wins, recognition, experienced staff, proven development and facilities etc.We struggle in all of that right now.

Zach article was good. The glaring hole for now that is fixable as pointed out remains in who recruits. Mullin's comments of everyone "pitching in" is BS. Team work and sharing some load is one thing in a great organization but there still needs to be a clear team, not one person doing the bulk and others dabbling. The other programs & recruiting analysts see this as abnormal, yet Mullin will not admit to it directly or is blind.

Mullin & AD Goff need to update the game plan now. It's less about progress in this season with more W's bit the long term structure.

Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #318 on: September 23, 2017, 11:29:19 AM »
This isn't a class that's being asked to replace to an entire roster like Lavin was forced to. There was no need to take the chances that the staff took.

What are you talking about? Lavin inherited a tournament team with ten seniors that went on to play professional basketball. Mullin inherited Felix Balamou and Amir Alibagoshit and within two recruiting cycles has assembled more talent than that nice person Lavin did in five years. What are you even talking about? Good grief.

That's not entirely fair.  The idea that he inherited an NCAA team is based on the fact he took them to the NCAA's not because he inherited a team that played in one prior.  That is a huge difference. Mike Jarvis inherited an NCAA team from Fran, why?  Because they went to the NCAA's the year before and returned Artest, Postell, Ty Grant, Bootsy (who would become eligible) and the top HS PG in the country coming in.  10 seniors or not he inherited a team that went 5-13, 6-12 and 6-12 in the BE in the 3 years prior to his arrival, hardly evidence he inherited an NCAA team.

Furthermore even if you grant the fact that he "inherited an NCAA team" by definition he had to essentially replace an entire roster, you can't blame that on him.  In other words you can't have it both ways, you can't say he inherited all those seniors and then dismiss the fact that he had to replace an entire roster that he inherited.

Furthermore by his 3rd year he had a 8-10 NIT team in a much more difficult conference (cannot compare the current BE to the old BE.  Not even close).  By his 4th year he had arguably the most talented roster at SJU in a long time even without Harkless.  With Harkless it would have been right there with Villanova in the BE imho. This is where you can argue he underachieved and did not do enough.  Because that is where I would agree.  But either way 3 20 win seasons and 4 NIT/NCAA seasons in 5 years is not good enough.  That is fine.  It shouldn't be, we expect to be at a level commensurate with Nova.  No reason they can't.

But Mullin did not inherit a mess of a program.  He needed to rebuild the roster no doubt.  But he is going into his 3rd year, he has forced out a well known assistant, had countless kids transfer, whiffed on most of the top local kids (a huge factor in his hiring was going to be him and his staff's ability to land Alkins, Tucker, Naz Reid, Muhammad etc).  Because again although he deserves credit for rebuilding the roster at the same time he has gotten far too much credit from posters giving him credit for improving from 1  league win to 7.  When you are THAT BAD early it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE not to improve unless you are named Rutgers.  Bottom line is if Lavin were the coach the last 2 years I don't think SJU would have been much worse or in fact worse, my guess is they would have been better specifically 2015-16 (Mullin's first year because I think Lavin would have had some recruits stay-I don't fault Mullin for that however).

The harder part is NOW.  SJU squeezed every possible win out of last year they could.  Most of their losses were blowouts especially in the league.  That is what scares me.  The record can be misleading I look at not just the losses but how competitive they were in those losses as evidence they have it going in the right direction.  The losses were blowouts for the most part, totally non-competitive.  The easy part was going from 1 to 7, the harder part is going from 7 to 10 or 11 and beyond.  He needs to start showing NOW why he and not Lavin not Danny Hurley was the best choice for SJU 2 1/2 years ago. He needs to start showing this year he can do that and then put in the work on the road to capitalize with recruits. 




I'm somewhat optimistic about this upcoming season, but everything fordham said here is dead on.  There's nothing the SJU staff can do if a kid like Nassir Little blows up and gets offered by Duke and Arizona.  I love to SJU, but to be honest if I was offered by either of those schools, I'd go with them too.  But when you spend 3 years recruiting a guy like Muhammed, the optics look really bad when a program that has not been recruiting him comes in and signs him.  Maybe I'm in the minority on this, but a class of Dixon, Keita, and Roberts doesn't really impress me at this stage.  Expected a lot more from these guys. 

ras

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Re: Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ
« Reply #319 on: September 23, 2017, 11:37:47 AM »
Some interesting quotes from the article:

"The perception exists that the recruiting structure at St. John’s is different from that of most high-major programs, that Abdelmassih does most of the recruiting. But Mullin said the entire staff chips in. In the Twitter and recruiting-crazy age, everyone knows who is seeing whom. It has become more than a one-man job."

“Very few, if any, staffs operate like St. John’s,” Slater said. “To a degree, it puts them at a competitive disadvantage.”


We are already at a disadvantage. No need to compound it. Mullin promised to bang down the gym doors. Has not done that. Also need Mitch to help w recruiting or bump him down and hire Rice. Although this whole Rice thing  is also puzzling.  Not asking for much money. He should already be on our staff.  IMO Mitch duplicates Mullins skills. I like Mich. But really need a coach that has complimentary skills. I.E. college exp, Recruiting,XOs, big man coach etc.