Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life

  • 155 replies
  • 28738 views

Marillac

  • *****
  • 11224
Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #100 on: June 07, 2016, 01:57:32 AM »
"You may think it's crazy that people can believe kids from the suburbs can live harder lives than kids from the inner-city, but I don't think you really understand how much more important family and support systems are than money and socio-economic status."

I never dismissed the importance of family and support systems. I mentioned that as being important, and agree its even more importance than socio economic status. However, and I say this with respect, because some kids from the suburbs have been exposed to some harsh things that somehow makes them believe they know what the "hard" life is like? Come on man. You had a support system. You had help, from whatever direction it came, you knew your Dad, you knew your grand parents and what is was like being a grandchild, you knew and had relationships with your family, you knew what it was like to have that love, that bond, it creates a sense of importance. You had a home, you had a community that helped you focus on school.....you had options. Are there bad role models, yeah they are everywhere. You have had some unfortunate experience and so has many people, that is not uncommon. What I am speaking of is a life style.   

Think about this....You never knew your dad, or anyone in your family outside of your mom. You may have other siblings but they are not with you. You don't have a stable place to stay, you bounce around from place to place, you have one pair of jeans and a couple of shirts. If you have a stable place its a rat hole, heater is always broken and no AC. The mice play around in the middle of the f'n living room like your their guest. You hear gun fire everyday, everyday. Someone gets shot or dies what seems like every week, every week. You go outside and our drug dealers didn't push a BMW. They pushed a Acura and busy cracking open a crack heads head, often there would be shoot outs from rival gangs trying to take over the spot or retaliate. Your mom is a crack head and doesn't give a shit about if you eat, when you go to sleep, where you are, or your schoolwork. (How do you think that impacts the development of a 5 year old) If you have a sister your mom starts pimping her out as soon as she develops so she can get some more dope. You see different dudes coming out of the room from bagging your sister while you stay in the living room with the mice. Often times you figure your better off not being there and that is often the case at around 14-15. You go into survival mode and do what you can, often end up a ward of the court, but often times it goes undetected until your an adult and you get caught and go to jail.

I was lucky, I had a stable upbringing, had both my parents, a home to call our own, but it didn't change what was in front of my face on a daily basis and who my associates where as a youth and what they had to go through. Not everyone was influenced negatively, many didn't choose a life of crime but they also didn't learn good study habits or the importance of an education. My parents weren't educated and didn't understand the impact the environment outside had on us. I was smoking weed when I was 12. There didn't seem anything wrong with that at the time, I felt like I was mature enough. I was a baby, learning how to cut up and package crack. That was the only industry I knew about. The negative influence is too great, my brother got sucked in and got murdered for it. I changed as I matured. I'm the first in my family to get a college degree let alone a graduate degree. But I'm not narcissistic to believe that since I was able to do it others should as well, of course everyone has the ability to, but statistics doesn't work like that.

Yes Jordan may have been a ass, or just another kid who got caught in the mix. It wasn't until I was in my early twenties for the light to come on, but I always went to school, its what my parents asked of me and supported me. 

Here's to those who persevered.



 

Very little of what you wrote applies to Jordan and stars like him. They are treated like royalty from elementary school.

You chose to sell crack at 12. My friend chose to sell weed at 12 (and still does). I chose to wash dishes off the books at a diner and caddy even though I didn't know the first thing about golf. I hung out at his place daily and turned down drugs (almost) every time. When I look at the roster of kids that used to hang out there, only a few of us didn't die from overdose, get locked up, or go to mental institutions. I don't think you understand how much drug use there is in the suburbs.

You are right that I did  have help. My saving grace was that I wast fast and football, track, and baseball coaches took an interest in me. My biggest help was dating a coach's daughter for a # of years who was an angel. You had teachers and coaches too. Jordan had more support and interest than either of us. He could have found himself a good girl to keep him straight. He saw the world and what was out there and still chose to act like a selfish baby and stay in his little box. He chose that over making his mom/siblings/neighborhood proud. That is a choice. Jordan's problem is that he was spoiled.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 03:25:58 AM by Marillac »

SJUFAN

  • *****
  • 2280
Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #101 on: June 07, 2016, 02:08:11 PM »

Very little of what you wrote applies to Jordan and stars like him. They are treated like royalty from elementary school.


He is a product of his environment. Was he treated differently as he got older sure, but it often doesn't change the conditioning. No different than a child who is raised in a racist environment. He's not going to automatically change because he's exposed to other rational minds, although some may, many do not. You keep saying he see's this, he see's that. Try explaining a color to a person who is born blind.

I know full well how much drug abuse exist everywhere. You are failing to acknowledge my point which is in the suburbs, it is a choice, for the most part. You had other options to chose form that don't exist in the hood. You said you got out because you were fast. You got out the suburbs?!?!?! All those clean streets and quite evenings must have been hard on you. We didn't have little league baseball, pop warner football, nothing. Wherever they were whose going to take you and sign you up? An 8 year old should know how to do this on their own and pay for it? My local High School didn't have a football team or a baseball team, with over 3000 students. Of course there are kids that grew up in abusing households in the suburbs and were on drugs, a hard life is often in the eyes of the beholder and can have similar effects as they have nothing to compare it to. However knowing what you do Its almost comical that you believe the ghetto is on par with the suburbs and there is no additional side effects predicated on the conditions that exist there. Your entitled to your opinion, we can agree to disagree. 

wpc77

  • ****
  • 863
Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #102 on: June 07, 2016, 02:13:05 PM »

Very little of what you wrote applies to Jordan and stars like him. They are treated like royalty from elementary school.


He is a product of his environment. Was he treated differently as he got older sure, but it often doesn't change the conditioning. No different than a child who is raised in a racist environment. He's not going to automatically change because he's exposed to other rational minds, although some may, many do not. You keep saying he see's this, he see's that. Try explaining a color to a person who is born blind.

I know full well how much drug abuse exist everywhere. You are failing to acknowledge my point which is in the suburbs, it is a choice, for the most part. You had other options to chose form that don't exist in the hood. You said you got out because you were fast. You got out the suburbs?!?!?! All those clean streets and quite evenings must have been hard on you. We didn't have little league baseball, pop warner football, nothing. Wherever they were whose going to take you and sign you up? An 8 year old should know how to do this on their own and pay for it? My local High School didn't have a football team or a baseball team, with over 3000 students. Of course there are kids that grew up in abusing households in the suburbs and were on drugs, a hard life is often in the eyes of the beholder and can have similar effects as they have nothing to compare it to. However knowing what you do Its almost comical that you believe the ghetto is on par with the suburbs and there is no additional side effects predicated on the conditions that exist there. Your entitled to your opinion, we can agree to disagree. 

Although what you have written applies to, unfortunately,  countless kids, you are ignoring that all evidence points to it not applying in this specific situation.  The gofundme page is particularly galling.  He's an asshat

boo3

  • *****
  • 6816
Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #103 on: June 07, 2016, 08:03:47 PM »
SJUFAN-   Great posts in this thread.. Majority of folks understand the point you are trying to make.  The other, well, they will never take that side, so why bother?

 Gotta love white suburban kids comparing themselves to kids in the projects... Lol

Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #104 on: June 07, 2016, 10:17:31 PM »
SJUFAN-   Great posts in this thread.. Majority of folks understand the point you are trying to make.  The other, well, they will never take that side, so why bother?

 Gotta love white suburban kids comparing themselves to kids in the projects... Lol

No white kids live in the projects?

Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #105 on: June 07, 2016, 10:54:03 PM »
SJUFAN-   Great posts in this thread.. Majority of folks understand the point you are trying to make.  The other, well, they will never take that side, so why bother?

 Gotta love white suburban kids comparing themselves to kids in the projects... Lol

No white kids live in the projects?

White Mike.  But he cool.

Marillac

  • *****
  • 11224
Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #106 on: June 08, 2016, 01:46:40 AM »
SJUFAN-   Great posts in this thread.. Majority of folks understand the point you are trying to make.  The other, well, they will never take that side, so why bother?

 Gotta love white suburban kids comparing themselves to kids in the projects... Lol

SJUFAN-   Great posts in this thread.. Majority of folks understand the point you are trying to make.  The other, well, they will never take that side, so why bother?

 Gotta love white suburban kids comparing themselves to kids in the projects... Lol

No white kids live in the projects?

Rest assured they'll find an excuse why those kids somehow have it better.

SJUFAN

  • *****
  • 2280
Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #107 on: June 08, 2016, 12:08:06 PM »
SJUFAN-   Great posts in this thread.. Majority of folks understand the point you are trying to make.  The other, well, they will never take that side, so why bother?

 Gotta love white suburban kids comparing themselves to kids in the projects... Lol

No white kids live in the projects?

This isn't a race issue, it's a socioeconomic one. It touches many races however the statistics show that in urban centers the majority of individuals who live in these sub sections are typical of a certain racial background.  So to answer your question, yes there are white kids that live in the projects, just as there are representation of every race in the suburbs. What's your point? That's a rhetorical question because there isn't any. A white kid from the projects would understand that kids from the suburbs whether they be white, black, yellow, orange, or green, does not have the same challenges in general as someone living in poverty and wouldn't be debating this nonsense.

Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #108 on: June 09, 2016, 07:24:43 AM »
SJUFAN-   Great posts in this thread.. Majority of folks understand the point you are trying to make.  The other, well, they will never take that side, so why bother?

 Gotta love white suburban kids comparing themselves to kids in the projects... Lol

No white kids live in the projects?

This isn't a race issue, it's a socioeconomic one. It touches many races however the statistics show that in urban centers the majority of individuals who live in these sub sections are typical of a certain racial background.  So to answer your question, yes there are white kids that live in the projects, just as there are representation of every race in the suburbs. What's your point? That's a rhetorical question because there isn't any. A white kid from the projects would understand that kids from the suburbs whether they be white, black, yellow, orange, or green, does not have the same challenges in general as someone living in poverty and wouldn't be debating this nonsense.

I know its not a race issue, that was my point

Ez_Uzi

  • **
  • 172
Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #109 on: June 10, 2016, 10:36:20 AM »
On this issue sir, I must disagree. But first i agree that If income and financial wealth is the only indicator of our well-being then Capitalism is certainly the answer.  I also agree that if concentration of wealth among fewer and fewer people is the purpose of capitalism then i am compelled to agree againl. A recent Credit Suisse report on inequality shows that a person needs only $3,210 to be in the wealthiest 50% of world citizens. About $68,800 secures a place in the top 10%, while the top 1% have more than $759,900. The report defines wealth as the value of assets including property and stock market investments, but excludes debt. We can perhaps even add a third social change of Capitalism, namely, the single mother conundrum. To believe that Capitalism can solve this problem is somewhat far-fetched. The list of the number of negative social changes brought out by Capitalism can go on ... divorce, crime, etc etc ...

But before being labelled a commie, i will share with you my weltenschuuang of what governance should be about. I believe societies evolved criss-cross institutions to solve problems that one institution could not. Markets fail education, health for all, they exactly do not do wonders for the climate or the environment. This is where the state and communitarian institutions can take over and fill in key gaps. The key problem with Capitalism is the overwhelming belief in markets providing solutions to all our needs at the scorn of state institutions and communities. Socialism's belief in the state can provide solutions to all our needs is the same blind faith. Or for the anarchists that communitarian institutions can do it all ... again another cul de sac.

A key factor in why poor people stay poor is the whole issue of power. The reason the top 1% are top 1% is because they can effectively eliminate the poor from almost all the wealth available, if they cared to take it all. If I step outside of the United States, and examine how countries have made huge strides in poverty reduction, i come up with the following lessons:

•   sustained economic growth, which is necessary but not sufficient for poverty reduction;
•   economic growth in sectors that provide employment, production and entrepreneurship opportunities to the poor.  These include sectors where the poor are more likely to find their livelihoods such as agriculture, fishing, forestry and other natural resources; and others where unskilled labor is important. In addition, a growing body of evidence suggests that access to energy by the poor can lead to benefits across multiple dimensions ranging from income to education and health outcomes and the well-being of women.
•   redistribution of the benefits of growth through public spending in the provision of equitable, quality services (in health, education, water and sanitation and others) for the poor that helps improve their – and their children’s –skills and productivity.  In turn, the poor boost growth when they are equipped with assets and resources to actively take part in the development process (this is a main reason for why you would want the poor to get out of poverty);
•   pro-active focus on women, the excluded,  and hard to reach population groups who may need special help to  gain access to employment and quality services. These may have important multiplier effects, positively affecting several dimensions of well-being – for example, educated mothers tend to have better nourished and educated children;
•   empowering the poor and marginalized – especially women – to play an effective role in the  decisions that determine their long term well-being;
•   providing protection against negative shocks (the proverbial safety nets) – including those arising from global crises such as those due to high food prices – so as to avoid slowdowns or reversals in poverty reduction.

This explains largely why even the poorest of the countries were able to make large tends into poverty. In the converse, this might also explain generally with this country has not been able to do it. Quality of education and health for the lowest wealth percentile along with other key services like skills, credit, etc etc perpetuates the inter-generational cycle of poverty.

So it is inaccurate to say that hand outs do not work. It is how they are designed. For example in Brazil, Bosla Familia programme (a social protection measure) gives the lowest wealth percentile cash income on the condition that their children attend school and undertake quarterly health checks. The results have been phenomenal in undoing some of the worst inequality conditions, and this country is not far in being one of the most unequal societies. This country can stay strong if it invests in its people particularly the lowest wealth percentile.

Thank you :)

QuanMan

  • *****
  • 1744
Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #110 on: June 10, 2016, 10:44:59 AM »
Today is Sheed's 22nd birthday as he sits in a federal prison awaiting his attempted murder trial. It must be one lonely introspective day.
Section 3
Section 116

Foad

  • *****
  • 6064
Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #111 on: June 10, 2016, 03:03:04 PM »
On this issue sir, I must disagree.

This is too long to reply to in full. But a few points. Note that I have <hosed> sections of your reply, not to as is usually the case take the poster out of context in the interest of mockery, but in the interest of clarity and brevity.

[...]

Quote
We can perhaps even add a third social change of Capitalism, namely, the single mother conundrum. To believe that Capitalism can solve this problem is somewhat far-fetched. The list of the number of negative social changes brought out by Capitalism can go on ... divorce, crime, etc etc ...

Capitalism does not cause crime. Cain slew Abel long before markets existed. Chimpanzees rape and murder other chimpanzees and they don't have Walmarts. Human nature causes crime, because human beings are venal. And divorce is caused by first wives. Don't get me started.


Quote
I believe societies evolved criss-cross institutions to solve problems that one institution could not.

Civilization came to be because a man alone in the state of nature is prey. That man now has the luxury of solving first world problems - like having clean drinking water and curing acne - is a product of a cooperative ecomony that provides a majority of its citizens with basic necessities like food, defense and shelter.


Quote
Markets fail education, health for all, they exactly do not do wonders for the climate or the environment. This is where the state and communitarian institutions can take over and fill in key gaps. The key problem with Capitalism is the overwhelming belief in markets providing solutions to all our needs at the scorn of state institutions and communities. Socialism's belief in the state can provide solutions to all our needs is the same blind faith. Or for the anarchists that communitarian institutions can do it all ... again another cul de sac.

Obviously the market is not perfect and it does not solve all problems. It has however solved more problems for more people than all other economic systems that have ever existed combined. Socialism solves problems by sending the problematic to the gulag or shooting them in the head. Capitalism solves problems by allowing citizens the power to improve their lot through intellect, effort, innovation and cooperation.

Quote
A key factor in why poor people stay poor is the whole issue of power. The reason the top 1% are top 1% is because they can effectively eliminate the poor from almost all the wealth available, if they cared to take it all.

I don't necessarily disagree with all of this, but who hold do you think holds the power? The Koch Brothers? Nazi collaborator George Soros? It's the government. The government has the power to regulate behavior, the power to tax, the guns to enforce their edicts and an ever expanding ravenous appetite. Warren Buffet is certainly rich, which yields to him the power to get a better table at Gramercy Tavern than Mahar and the rest of the serfs: he has more liberty than the rest of us by virtue of his wealth. But he didn't get rich by eating the poor's slice of the pie, he got rich by making the pie bigger and then shoveling more of it into his greedy maw. 

   
Quote
This explains largely why even the poorest of the countries were able to make large tends into poverty. In the converse, this might also explain generally with this country has not been able to do it. Quality of education and health for the lowest wealth percentile along with other key services like skills, credit, etc etc perpetuates the inter-generational cycle of poverty.

This doesn't make any sense. The poorest of countries are poor. If they have made large inroads into poverty they would be poor no longer.

It's also not true.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/2015/economy/population_below_poverty_line_2015_0.html

The US is 30th out of 130 from the bottom, on about a par with a bunch of other civilized countries. Of the countries that are above it you have a bunch that are subsidized by the US economy, like Germany, which would be a third world country if the US closed its bases there. Countries like Norway and France, which would be no where as prosperous as they are if the US had not spent trillions protecting them from Slavic depredation. (Not to mention if the US capitalist economy did not have a ravenous appetite for lute fish, cheese and existentialism.) Then there are criminals like Switzerland, whose prosperity came chiefly from melting down gold from the teeth of murdered Jews and which sustains itself by laundering money for drug cartels and various mass murderers like Saddam Hussein. And China, which operates a slave economy. And at the top of the list you have the usual conga line of third world hamster in a wheel socialist shit holes, like Nigeria and Swaziland.



Quote
So it is inaccurate to say that hand outs do not work. It is how they are designed.

Except I didn't hand outs didn't work. I said the opposite: that in a civilized society it is imperative that charity be extended to those in need - but that the way charity in this country is designed and administered - via a massive inefficient centrally planned federal bureaucracy - is flawed and in many ways evil, because it encourages the very behaviors that give rise to the pathologies that cause poverty, which it purports to cure.

Quote
For example in Brazil, Bosla Familia programme (a social protection measure) gives the lowest wealth percentile cash income on the condition that their children attend school and undertake quarterly health checks. The results have been phenomenal in undoing some of the worst inequality conditions, and this country is not far in being one of the most unequal societies. This country can stay strong if it invests in its people particularly the lowest wealth percentile.

Again, I don't have a problem with charity. I don't have a problem with educating the uneducated or curing the sick or mitigating the suffering of the afflicted. A society must do those things to be a just society. I simply believe that those things are best done locally and in a way that encourages long term behavioral changes that will ameliorate the social ills that result in deprivation and despair. Simply giving people food stamps and section 8 housing does not do that, as has been amply demonstrated by the war on poverty.

SJUFAN

  • *****
  • 2280
Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #112 on: June 10, 2016, 06:29:45 PM »

"Treat a man as he is, and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he could be, and he will become what he should be."

-Ralph Waldo Emerson

Marillac

  • *****
  • 11224
Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #113 on: June 10, 2016, 10:35:39 PM »

"Treat a man as he is, and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he could be, and he will become what he should be."

-Ralph Waldo Emerson


This quote and your tone in this thread makes it seem like individuals are powerless and their fate is determined by others and their circumstances.  We all make choices.  Some people are born on third base and think they hit a triple.  Others have to work for it.  It's not fair, but nobody is powerless.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 10:36:59 PM by Marillac »

Marillac

  • *****
  • 11224
Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #114 on: June 10, 2016, 10:50:12 PM »
SJUFAN-   Great posts in this thread.. Majority of folks understand the point you are trying to make.  The other, well, they will never take that side, so why bother?

 Gotta love white suburban kids comparing themselves to kids in the projects... Lol

No white kids live in the projects?

This isn't a race issue, it's a socioeconomic one. It touches many races however the statistics show that in urban centers the majority of individuals who live in these sub sections are typical of a certain racial background.  So to answer your question, yes there are white kids that live in the projects, just as there are representation of every race in the suburbs. What's your point? That's a rhetorical question because there isn't any. A white kid from the projects would understand that kids from the suburbs whether they be white, black, yellow, orange, or green, does not have the same challenges in general as someone living in poverty and wouldn't be debating this nonsense.

I also don't think you understand what suburbs are. Some of the poorest most crime-infested neighborhoods in the country are classified as suburban or rural.  When you use the term suburb, it seems like you are envisioning the Wonder Years.  In NY there are very clear housing projects but in places like Miami and LA, it is very spread out and bad neighborhoods look like NY suburbs physically.  Some of the poorest areas in the south are between suburban and straight up rural.  Newburgh, NY is more dangerous than just about any place I've been in NYC and it either a very small city or a suburb. I lived in NYC then in a terrible neighborhood in a bad city (New Brunswick, NJ) then the suburbs of NY as a kid.

Ez_Uzi

  • **
  • 172
Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #115 on: June 11, 2016, 04:41:31 AM »
Thank you for a very civil and enlightening response. On redmen.com when i challenged a poster on the merits of nuking the middle east, lets just say that bigotry was the least of the shortcomings of the response ... I presumed he received his education from SJU where i find the scholarship generally wanting. I presume you did not attend SJU but i was happy to read about your father's contributions to the University. And there can be no doubt that we both support Mr. Mullin and SJU basketball.

Overall, it seems we agree on most accounts. On some points I need to further clarify what I meant. And on some points, it is not about agreeing to disagree but rather which evidence and which lens makes more sense to use. My short responses below. 

On this issue sir, I must disagree.

This is too long to reply to in full. But a few points. Note that I have <hosed> sections of your reply, not to as is usually the case take the poster out of context in the interest of mockery, but in the interest of clarity and brevity.

[...]

Quote
We can perhaps even add a third social change of Capitalism, namely, the single mother conundrum. To believe that Capitalism can solve this problem is somewhat far-fetched. The list of the number of negative social changes brought out by Capitalism can go on ... divorce, crime, etc etc ...

Capitalism does not cause crime. Cain slew Abel long before markets existed. Chimpanzees rape and murder other chimpanzees and they don't have Walmarts. Human nature causes crime, because human beings are venal. And divorce is caused by first wives. Don't get me started.

I partly agree with the above, and that's why in particular I stopped after the first wife lolz. Perhaps you want to say that capitalism can also cause crime. If Capitalism does not cause or lend to crime, then why the rampant colonization of poor countries moving from merchant capitalism to modern capitalism ... the rape and pillage particularly by the British to fuel their industrial revolution and propel its capitalism? Would you say that the destruction of societies, dispossession of lands and natural resources does not constitute a crime against humanity? Moving forward to present day the disenfranchisement of certain sections of the world or within societies by increasing concentration of wealth would not cause crime to emerge and remain?

Quote
I believe societies evolved criss-cross institutions to solve problems that one institution could not.

Civilization came to be because a man alone in the state of nature is prey. That man now has the luxury of solving first world problems - like having clean drinking water and curing acne - is a product of a cooperative ecomony that provides a majority of its citizens with basic necessities like food, defense and shelter.

Again I partly agree here. But i would state it differently. I think where Darwin got it less right was on natural selection, and the focus on the individuals within a species. I think group selection explains the phenomenon better. We needed to cooperate because we were a prey in order to survive. Now this partly also explains why some runts continue to exist - you know the middle east nukers. Group selection also partly explains the emergence of religion, which i call a moral framework ... that is, collective action and the rules and norms for survival. Finally group selection also partly explains the evolutionary leap our specie made because we needed to move on from primordial emotions and develop advanced emotions such as empathy and love.

Quote
Markets fail education, health for all, they exactly do not do wonders for the climate or the environment. This is where the state and communitarian institutions can take over and fill in key gaps. The key problem with Capitalism is the overwhelming belief in markets providing solutions to all our needs at the scorn of state institutions and communities. Socialism's belief in the state can provide solutions to all our needs is the same blind faith. Or for the anarchists that communitarian institutions can do it all ... again another cul de sac.

Obviously the market is not perfect and it does not solve all problems. It has however solved more problems for more people than all other economic systems that have ever existed combined. Socialism solves problems by sending the problematic to the gulag or shooting them in the head. Capitalism solves problems by allowing citizens the power to improve their lot through intellect, effort, innovation and cooperation.

I completely agree here again but again would state it as .. markets solve problems much much better provided they are not interfered with inexorably ... that some regulations are required (we cant sell rat poison and call it white bread) ... that there is a level playing field so that all citizens can access the resources they need to engage in markets and innovate. Also knowing that markets fail, and where they do government and civil society institutions' intervention and cooperation is needed.

Quote
A key factor in why poor people stay poor is the whole issue of power. The reason the top 1% are top 1% is because they can effectively eliminate the poor from almost all the wealth available, if they cared to take it all.

I don't necessarily disagree with all of this, but who hold do you think holds the power? The Koch Brothers? Nazi collaborator George Soros? It's the government. The government has the power to regulate behavior, the power to tax, the guns to enforce their edicts and an ever expanding ravenous appetite. Warren Buffet is certainly rich, which yields to him the power to get a better table at Gramercy Tavern than Mahar and the rest of the serfs: he has more liberty than the rest of us by virtue of his wealth. But he didn't get rich by eating the poor's slice of the pie, he got rich by making the pie bigger and then shoveling more of it into his greedy maw. 

If I apply the Foucauldian thinking then power is held in discourse ... the power to define the "other" and thus hold power over it and subject it to one's whims, so rich countries over poorer countries. But I will apply a more political economy lens, and this is where i disagree with your neat separation between the government, markets and civil society (or not so civil society). We all know about the special interests groups, pharmaceuticals for example, and how they exert power over the government and how this perpetuates the crime of kick-backs. Warren Buffet may have escaped all these shenanigans but a number of special interest groups here and the multinational corporations in poorer countries do not. I could cite a number of sources but i trust you will give me the benefit of doubt. Finally let me give you my definition of wealth and if we agree on this, i wholeheartedly agree with your statement "he has more liberty than the rest of us by virtue of his wealth." I see wealth as multidimensional where of course financial capital is an obvious and key one but to me this is incomplete so i include in it human capital (knowledge, skills, good health), physical capital (equipment, technology, etc.), social capital and increasingly natural capital (including our climate). I think you will agree with my definition particularly where the IQ of wealth is liberty (particularly from the serfs) ...

 
Quote
This explains largely why even the poorest of the countries were able to make large tends into poverty. In the converse, this might also explain generally with this country has not been able to do it. Quality of education and health for the lowest wealth percentile along with other key services like skills, credit, etc etc perpetuates the inter-generational cycle of poverty.

This doesn't make any sense. The poorest of countries are poor. If they have made large inroads into poverty they would be poor no longer.

It's also not true.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/2015/economy/population_below_poverty_line_2015_0.html

The US is 30th out of 130 from the bottom, on about a par with a bunch of other civilized countries. Of the countries that are above it you have a bunch that are subsidized by the US economy, like Germany, which would be a third world country if the US closed its bases there. Countries like Norway and France, which would be no where as prosperous as they are if the US had not spent trillions protecting them from Slavic depredation. (Not to mention if the US capitalist economy did not have a ravenous appetite for lute fish, cheese and existentialism.) Then there are criminals like Switzerland, whose prosperity came chiefly from melting down gold from the teeth of murdered Jews and which sustains itself by laundering money for drug cartels and various mass murderers like Saddam Hussein. And China, which operates a slave economy. And at the top of the list you have the usual conga line of third world hamster in a wheel socialist shit holes, like Nigeria and Swaziland.

I am not sure why i cant access the link you sent or the earlier one on the war on poverty. I am currently on the edge of a jungle in Zambia (look up South Luangwa National Park and within it Croc Valley Camp) which might explain it. I mis-wrote and instead wanted to say education, health and access for the poorest breaks the cycle.

I agree on the subsidizing argument but do not forget to include Israel. But also look up something called the Human Development Index, which also shows a more multi-dimensional understanding of well-being and this country starts to slip and continues to slip. And to my original point that Zambia was a very poor country but is increasingly less poor because of the investments it makes in its people. Also based purely on my observations and one key reason it is growing at 6% per annum is the work ethic of its people. No comment on China, who like earlier colonizers are sucking African natural resources dry but unlike earlier colonizers do provide tangible benefits to the Africans - the terms of trade are better.

Quote
So it is inaccurate to say that hand outs do not work. It is how they are designed.

Except I didn't hand outs didn't work. I said the opposite: that in a civilized society it is imperative that charity be extended to those in need - but that the way charity in this country is designed and administered - via a massive inefficient centrally planned federal bureaucracy - is flawed and in many ways evil, because it encourages the very behaviors that give rise to the pathologies that cause poverty, which it purports to cure.

My bad ...

Quote
For example in Brazil, Bosla Familia programme (a social protection measure) gives the lowest wealth percentile cash income on the condition that their children attend school and undertake quarterly health checks. The results have been phenomenal in undoing some of the worst inequality conditions, and this country is not far in being one of the most unequal societies. This country can stay strong if it invests in its people particularly the lowest wealth percentile.

Again, I don't have a problem with charity. I don't have a problem with educating the uneducated or curing the sick or mitigating the suffering of the afflicted. A society must do those things to be a just society. I simply believe that those things are best done locally and in a way that encourages long term behavioral changes that will ameliorate the social ills that result in deprivation and despair. Simply giving people food stamps and section 8 housing does not do that, as has been amply demonstrated by the war on poverty.

Whether one calls it charity or investing in your own people, it is a good long-term investment if it is done right. Here instead of a strong work ethic, a culture of entitlement prevails which doesnt help anyone.


Foad

  • *****
  • 6064
Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #116 on: June 11, 2016, 12:36:24 PM »
My short responses below. 
Very poor job with the quote function, just saying

Quote
Perhaps you want to say that capitalism can also cause crime. If Capitalism does not cause or lend to crime, then why the rampant colonization of poor countries moving from merchant capitalism to modern capitalism ... the rape and pillage particularly by the British to fuel their industrial revolution and propel its capitalism? Would you say that the destruction of societies, dispossession of lands and natural resources does not constitute a crime against humanity? Moving forward to present day the disenfranchisement of certain sections of the world or within societies by increasing concentration of wealth would not cause crime to emerge and remain?

What I want to say is what I said. Capitalism does not cause crime, any more than it causes skin rashes: if it caused crime we'd all be criminals. Certainly capitalists commit crimes. Capitalists also perform acts of charity, but I'm guessing you wouldn't say that capitalism causes altruism.

What I'd say about colonialism is that certainly some of it was a crime against humanity - although I try not to condemn people for living in the times in which they were born - but that it is caused by natural human rapaciousness and venality. (That's what's so great about capitalism: it's based on the same things.) Territorial expansion was what people did; westerners just did it better than everyone else. Is there really a difference between the plague virus invading Egypt and Belgium invading the Congo, or is that just a biological imperative. Anyway, was Alexander the Great a capitalist? Napoleon? Caesar? Were the Apache - who invaded the American southwest and enslaved native peoples - capitalists? Were the Incas? Was Hitler? Stalin? If not does socialism cause crime? Or maybe it's wearing a toga that does it?

Quote
Again I partly agree here. But i would state it differently. I think where Darwin got it less right was on natural selection, and the focus on the individuals within a species. I think group selection explains the phenomenon better. We needed to cooperate because we were a prey in order to survive. Now this partly also explains why some runts continue to exist - you know the middle east nukers. Group selection also partly explains the emergence of religion, which i call a moral framework ... that is, collective action and the rules and norms for survival. Finally group selection also partly explains the evolutionary leap our specie made because we needed to move on from primordial emotions and develop advanced emotions such as empathy and love.

I'm not a Darwinian: evolution is a crock. It's easier to believe that we're characters in a video game 10000 years in the future or the remnants of a neglected cosmic fish tank than it is that Beethoven's 7th Symphony was the result of spontaneous generation in lake of mud. I do not believe that we are as a species evolving into always better forms of homo sapiens, upward towards god, any more than I think that a bacteria that develops a resistance to penicillin is becoming a better more enlightened germ.


Quote
I completely agree here again but again would state it as .. markets solve problems much much better provided they are not interfered with inexorably ... that some regulations are required (we cant sell rat poison and call it white bread) ... that there is a level playing field so that all citizens can access the resources they need to engage in markets and innovate. Also knowing that markets fail, and where they do government and civil society institutions' intervention and cooperation is needed.

I don't know that I agree with all of that: a bakery that sold bread that killed people would not stay long in business. Of course I do agree that there is a need for law, because man needs the threat of punishment to keep him from exercising his normal base instincts and descending into vicious mindless depravity. Cavils about how that law is promulgated, enacted and enforced is a different argument: every time a law is passed citizens lose more of their liberty and the government accretes to itself more power. I want as much freedom as possible and do not trust the government at all.

[...]

Quote
I agree on the subsidizing argument but do not forget to include Israel.

I didn't mention it because it has a higher percentage of people living under the poverty line than the US and thus was not relevant. I hope you are not an antisemite, that would be unfortunate.


Quote
But also look up something called the Human Development Index, which also shows a more multi-dimensional understanding of well-being and this country starts to slip and continues to slip.

A, the HDI was created by the UN, so it's somewhere between suspect and complete hooey and B, according to that index the US is the 8th happiest country in the world. I notice that it's behind Germany again, where 60 years ago they were shoving human beings into ovens and baking them like pop tarts. Nowadays half the German population thinks Auschwitz was a myth, which perhaps explains their self-satisfaction.


Quote
And to my original point that Zambia was a very poor country but is increasingly less poor because of the investments it makes in its people. Also based purely on my observations and one key reason it is growing at 6% per annum is the work ethic of its people. No comment on China, who like earlier colonizers are sucking African natural resources dry but unlike earlier colonizers do provide tangible benefits to the Africans - the terms of trade are better.

I'm not going to argue about Zambia with someone living in Zambia. However, 76 percent of the Zambian population lives below the poverty level, the HDI ranks them 5th from the bottom on the happiness scale, and whatever economic successes they've had recently seem to be the result of (a) jettisoning their socialist economy and (b) aid from the world monetary fund. If that's true they seem to be embracing the free market rather than rejecting it.

SJUFAN

  • *****
  • 2280
Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #117 on: June 11, 2016, 01:45:06 PM »

"Treat a man as he is, and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he could be, and he will become what he should be."

-Ralph Waldo Emerson


This quote and your tone in this thread makes it seem like individuals are powerless and their fate is determined by others and their circumstances.  We all make choices.  Some people are born on third base and think they hit a triple.  Others have to work for it.  It's not fair, but nobody is powerless.

Individuals are not powerless, we all have choices. I’m simply saying that others do determine a person’s circumstance and that influence can impact their fate. I’m not condoning anyone’s actions or saying they shouldn’t be held accountable, just pointing out what contributes to a person making dumb choices. I think too many turn a blind eye to that and chalk it up to individual choice. Yes some people will make it through it, but those are the exceptions rather than the rule. We as a society will never effect change if we continue to ignore causation. Not everyone child/teenager commits suicide from bulling. Does that mean bulling isn't an issue and has no impact? I just want the shit that influences people to make bad choices to stop. Then we can truly focus on the choices they make.   

Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #118 on: June 11, 2016, 01:52:32 PM »
Individuals have the power to reject Social Darwinism and be careful about jumping back and forth between Nietzsche's good vs. bad and good vs. evil paradigms.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 01:53:14 PM by fuchsia »

Marillac

  • *****
  • 11224
Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #119 on: June 11, 2016, 02:05:01 PM »

"Treat a man as he is, and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he could be, and he will become what he should be."

-Ralph Waldo Emerson


This quote and your tone in this thread makes it seem like individuals are powerless and their fate is determined by others and their circumstances.  We all make choices.  Some people are born on third base and think they hit a triple.  Others have to work for it.  It's not fair, but nobody is powerless.

Individuals are not powerless, we all have choices. I’m simply saying that others do determine a person’s circumstance and that influence can impact their fate. I’m not condoning anyone’s actions or saying they shouldn’t be held accountable, just pointing out what contributes to a person making dumb choices. I think too many turn a blind eye to that and chalk it up to individual choice. Yes some people will make it through it, but those are the exceptions rather than the rule. We as a society will never effect change if we continue to ignore causation. Not everyone child/teenager commits suicide from bulling. Does that mean bulling isn't an issue and has no impact? I just want the shit that influences people to make bad choices to stop. Then we can truly focus on the choices they make.   

I don't disagree with you that some people are born with the deck stacked against them. It's all about luck who ends up with which family and with which situation and environment. It's f*cked up. But a kid like Jordan had it better than most kids anywhere in the world. He was given a healthy body and was a genetic anomaly.  He could get any girl he wanted. He flew all over the country and world. He was the jewel of his family, neighborhood, and school. All of his teachers and coaches took an interest  in him so he never felt neglected. Think about kids that are born with crippling physical or mental conditions...children sold into slavery...children who were mollested, etc. Wluld you rather be from A tough neighborhood or that? And we can't even compare ghettos in America to others in the world where kids walk around with AKs at 5-6, become sexual slaves as children, drink water they sh*t and piss in, and don't have the hope of being in a country like America. They don't have Twitter followers, computers, cell phones, etc.  Jordan did. Someone always has it worse than you.