Patience/Comparable Rebuilds

Quote from: sju61982 on February 01, 2018, 11:56:06 AM

A comparison to this year, would be the 1999-2000 BC Eagles.  A little different, because they actually won their conference opener before the long losing streak of mostly close games, and it was a weaker league, but the margin of defeats are eerily similar to us this year.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2000-schedule.html

And, with most everyone back, here's how they did the following season.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2001-schedule.html

Granted, that's an extreme jump even by the most optimistic of standards, but it would be nice to have something close to that next year.

And to go along with my experience point. Of the 7 players that averaged more than five points per game in 1999-20, only two of those players had played at least a year at Boston College. Of the 7 players to do it in 00-01, six of them had played at least a year at Boston College.

Of the six players to average more than five points per game for us this year, only three had played the year prior at St. John's and only two were starters. And our Strength of Schedule is 4 points higher than what the first BC team had to deal with.

you are ignoring the revolving door that caused some of this.  We had a couple of experienced players that would have helped with this, and with depth, but they left.  the staff didn't manage the roster well

Quote from: johnniesfilmmaker on February 01, 2018, 01:06:08 PM

Quote from: sju61982 on February 01, 2018, 11:56:06 AM

A comparison to this year, would be the 1999-2000 BC Eagles.  A little different, because they actually won their conference opener before the long losing streak of mostly close games, and it was a weaker league, but the margin of defeats are eerily similar to us this year.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2000-schedule.html

And, with most everyone back, here's how they did the following season.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2001-schedule.html

Granted, that's an extreme jump even by the most optimistic of standards, but it would be nice to have something close to that next year.

And to go along with my experience point. Of the 7 players that averaged more than five points per game in 1999-20, only two of those players had played at least a year at Boston College. Of the 7 players to do it in 00-01, six of them had played at least a year at Boston College.

Of the six players to average more than five points per game for us this year, only three had played the year prior at St. John's and only two were starters. And our Strength of Schedule is 4 points higher than what the first BC team had to deal with.

you are ignoring the revolving door that caused some of this.  We had a couple of experienced players that would have helped with this, and with depth, but they left.  the staff didn't manage the roster well

Precisely.  This is what gets me about the "short handed/lack of depth argument" people use to excuse how bad a year CM and SJU have had.  They act like he inherited this roster.  They act like someone else recruited and built this roster and he had no choice but to accept this roster.  Who the hell recruited this roster?  Who watched countless kids transfer, countless kids get missed in recruiting?  Who took chances on sit out transfers that you knew would not be able to suit up this year???  He did.  He owns this as well.

Quote from: wpc77 on February 01, 2018, 01:16:51 PM

Quote from: johnniesfilmmaker on February 01, 2018, 01:06:08 PM

Quote from: sju61982 on February 01, 2018, 11:56:06 AM

A comparison to this year, would be the 1999-2000 BC Eagles.  A little different, because they actually won their conference opener before the long losing streak of mostly close games, and it was a weaker league, but the margin of defeats are eerily similar to us this year.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2000-schedule.html

And, with most everyone back, here's how they did the following season.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2001-schedule.html

Granted, that's an extreme jump even by the most optimistic of standards, but it would be nice to have something close to that next year.

And to go along with my experience point. Of the 7 players that averaged more than five points per game in 1999-20, only two of those players had played at least a year at Boston College. Of the 7 players to do it in 00-01, six of them had played at least a year at Boston College.

Of the six players to average more than five points per game for us this year, only three had played the year prior at St. John's and only two were starters. And our Strength of Schedule is 4 points higher than what the first BC team had to deal with.

you are ignoring the revolving door that caused some of this.  We had a couple of experienced players that would have helped with this, and with depth, but they left.  the staff didn't manage the roster well

Precisely.  This is what gets me about the "short handed/lack of depth argument" people use to excuse how bad a year CM and SJU have had.  They act like he inherited this roster.  They act like someone else recruited and built this roster and he had no choice but to accept this roster.  Who the hell recruited this roster?  Who watched countless kids transfer, countless kids get missed in recruiting?  Who took chances on sit out transfers that you knew would not be able to suit up this year???  He did.  He owns this as well.

Yup, roster management is quite a fair area of criticism.

Quote from: ras on January 31, 2018, 09:53:31 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 09:34:20 PM

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 31, 2018, 09:24:43 PM

Quote from: Foryoureyesonly88 on January 31, 2018, 09:06:53 PM

Quote from: goredmen on January 31, 2018, 08:58:19 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 08:18:34 PM

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Complete insanity

He’s right though. We were well on pace for 20 wins this year before everything imploded. 22-25 wins next year ( assuming all known variables are still in place) is very realistic and should be the expectation.

More like you agree, rather than him being "right." 

IMO, Mullin may need to make two changes to the staff.  If those changes are made, along with everyone coming back and the newcomers doesn't renege, then there's a chance we could win 20 games.  Regardless, a change on the staff will need to be made, and it'll have to be with someone who'll make a difference.  Otherwise, it'll be more of the same.

By the way, Keita is raw (not directed at you, Eyes).  I don't care anything about his size.  He may have improved during his season off, but to expect much from him is setting yourself up for disappointment.  Maybe, playing last season with Chris Silva rubbed off on him.  We'll see.  I don't have much expectations from Keita next season.

Keita was raw. He also played 10 mpg as a true freshman for a team that made it to the national championship game. I'd like to think we could win 22-25 with him as a third year college player playing 20 mpg. Brooks isn't raw by any measurement. Clark played big minutes in the final four at PF and C. That's not a bad trio. Throw in Simon too in smaller lineups. These kids need be repositioned. Simon and Clark should be combining for 5 offensive boards a game.

If I’m not mistaken Keita was a 4 star player  out of hs and will benefit from the redshirt year. I’m also excited about Brooks, a player w real inside skills, which is something that IMO, Mullin has never had as a coach. As bad as this season has been, if we can keep the core intact, keep Brooks, and hire another experienced coach to help out, we can be in good shape.

Keita was a 4-star player coming out of HS.  I can name plenty of players who were 4-star players coming out of HS who didn't do much of anything in college.  I hope Keita comes out guns blazin', but I saw him a season ago and he's raw.  Hopefully, the redshirt season benefits him, but I'm not gonna expect too much from him next season.

I agree with the latter part of your reply, but those are a lot of "if's" from you, me, and several others.

Keita and Owens had very similar stats in their frosh years in the SEC.  Keita played a couple more mins/g, shot worse, scored less but rebounded a little more.  He will come in less polished than Tariq was last year, gives up a couple inches on Tariq as well.  All I'm hoping is that he uses his significantly bigger body to get more rebounds and a couple extra putbacks and solid on the ball defense.    I know Tariq had the opportunity to play more minutes but didn't, and Keita was behind a couple of other productive bigs but I'm just commenting on their time spent on the court frosh year and how it might project.

Quote from: wpc77 on February 01, 2018, 01:16:51 PM

Quote from: johnniesfilmmaker on February 01, 2018, 01:06:08 PM

Quote from: sju61982 on February 01, 2018, 11:56:06 AM

A comparison to this year, would be the 1999-2000 BC Eagles.  A little different, because they actually won their conference opener before the long losing streak of mostly close games, and it was a weaker league, but the margin of defeats are eerily similar to us this year.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2000-schedule.html

And, with most everyone back, here's how they did the following season.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2001-schedule.html

Granted, that's an extreme jump even by the most optimistic of standards, but it would be nice to have something close to that next year.

And to go along with my experience point. Of the 7 players that averaged more than five points per game in 1999-20, only two of those players had played at least a year at Boston College. Of the 7 players to do it in 00-01, six of them had played at least a year at Boston College.

Of the six players to average more than five points per game for us this year, only three had played the year prior at St. John's and only two were starters. And our Strength of Schedule is 4 points higher than what the first BC team had to deal with.

you are ignoring the revolving door that caused some of this.  We had a couple of experienced players that would have helped with this, and with depth, but they left.  the staff didn't manage the roster well

Precisely.  This is what gets me about the "short handed/lack of depth argument" people use to excuse how bad a year CM and SJU have had.  They act like he inherited this roster.  They act like someone else recruited and built this roster and he had no choice but to accept this roster.  Who the hell recruited this roster?  Who watched countless kids transfer, countless kids get missed in recruiting?  Who took chances on sit out transfers that you knew would not be able to suit up this year???  He did.  He owns this as well.

Nobody's saying Mullin doesn't own anything. He owns everything. But saying we have lots of experience when we don't have lots of experience is saying something that's demonstrably false. Why we don't have lots of experience is a separate issue.

If I say have a sandwich, there's a load of delicious black forest ham and swiss cheese and iceberg lettuce and russian dressing in the fridge and I just bough a bag of fresh kaiser rolls and and there's nothing in the refrigerator except a moldy loaf of white bread it's not an excuse to point out that the refrigerator is empty: it's correcting a false statement. It might be empty because Mullin forgot to go the store or because big fat Steve Lavin ate all the cold cuts to grow his man tits. Why the refrigerator is empty is different from the refrigerator actually being empty.

Things are bad enough without making up things to make them look worse.

Quote from: fordham96 on February 01, 2018, 02:02:16 PM

Quote from: wpc77 on February 01, 2018, 01:16:51 PM

Quote from: johnniesfilmmaker on February 01, 2018, 01:06:08 PM

Quote from: sju61982 on February 01, 2018, 11:56:06 AM

A comparison to this year, would be the 1999-2000 BC Eagles.  A little different, because they actually won their conference opener before the long losing streak of mostly close games, and it was a weaker league, but the margin of defeats are eerily similar to us this year.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2000-schedule.html

And, with most everyone back, here's how they did the following season.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2001-schedule.html

Granted, that's an extreme jump even by the most optimistic of standards, but it would be nice to have something close to that next year.

And to go along with my experience point. Of the 7 players that averaged more than five points per game in 1999-20, only two of those players had played at least a year at Boston College. Of the 7 players to do it in 00-01, six of them had played at least a year at Boston College.

Of the six players to average more than five points per game for us this year, only three had played the year prior at St. John's and only two were starters. And our Strength of Schedule is 4 points higher than what the first BC team had to deal with.

you are ignoring the revolving door that caused some of this.  We had a couple of experienced players that would have helped with this, and with depth, but they left.  the staff didn't manage the roster well

Precisely.  This is what gets me about the "short handed/lack of depth argument" people use to excuse how bad a year CM and SJU have had.  They act like he inherited this roster.  They act like someone else recruited and built this roster and he had no choice but to accept this roster.  Who the hell recruited this roster?  Who watched countless kids transfer, countless kids get missed in recruiting?  Who took chances on sit out transfers that you knew would not be able to suit up this year???  He did.  He owns this as well.

Nobody's saying Mullin doesn't own anything. He owns everything. But saying we have lots of experience when we don't have lots of experience is saying something that's demonstrably false. Why we don't have lots of experience is a separate issue.

If I say have a sandwich, there's a load of delicious black forest ham and swiss cheese and iceberg lettuce and russian dressing in the fridge and I just bough a bag of fresh kaiser rolls and and there's nothing in the refrigerator except a moldy loaf of white bread it's not an excuse to point out that the refrigerator is empty: it's correcting a false statement. It might be empty because Mullin forgot to go the store or because big fat Steve Lavin ate all the cold cuts to grow his man tits. Why the refrigerator is empty is different from the refrigerator actually being empty.

Things are bad enough without making up things to make them look worse.

Not just this board read twitter and other boards plenty of used the lack of depth as an excuse...

No I am not making things up much like you are not making it up that you always gave Lavin the chance from the beginning...

Quote from: rdstr25 on February 01, 2018, 12:21:40 PM

Quote from: johnniesfilmmaker on February 01, 2018, 11:13:39 AM

Quote from: fordham96 on January 31, 2018, 10:02:58 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 09:27:42 PM

Quote from: goredmen on January 31, 2018, 08:58:19 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 08:18:34 PM

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Complete insanity

We'll have depth for the first time. Size for the first time. Experience all over the court. Oh, and the best player in the conference as an upperclassman.

Couple of things.  I do think SJU can have a big turnaround next year.  But more importantly they will have to, there is no way he can win 7 league games next year and claim it was an improvement based on this year being a disaster.  Again he does not get the benefit of the doubt like he did after year 1.  He does not get to benefit from a disaster this year.  The year 4 expectations still remain.  As I said it is a two year plan now with a HUGE jump next year expected and then year 5 competing with Nova.  So I like your enthusiasm...

...but you are way  overstating things.  You are saying SJU will have depth and some frontcourt talent for the first time, that doesn't guarantee anything.  As you know the other 9 teams are not standing still.  They will have talent and depth and the idea that SJU is going to jump 10-11 wins based simply on extra bodies is a bit of a leap of faith.

Secondly you are giving WAAAYYY too much credit for last year's 8 wins.  Again if you count the BE Tourney they were 8-12.  All 12 losses weren't close.  They had zero chance to win any of them.  They won I counted 4 games that could have gone either way, both wins against Georgetown at MSG, road win at DePaul and the Butler game at Carnesecca.  They won every one, quite frankly they were probably closer to 6-14 than say 10-10.  Put it to you another way, they probably didn't improve as much as we thought last year.  So don't put too much stock in last year's record.  In fact if anything some of those close wins last year are starting to even out this year with losses.  Since they really had no close losses last year.

Lastly, Ponds the best player next year in the BE??  Hopefully he improves but right now based on production and the fact the teams they play on are simply more successful I would put Markus Howard of Marquette, Jalen Brunson/Mikal Bridges/Omari Spellman/Phil Booth/Donte D all have eligiblity for Nova left after this year., Kamar Baldwin of Butler is a terrific player, Kyri Thomas of Creighton is averagine 14.6 while shooting over 50% and is a Junior.  I think Shamorie can be one of the best guards in the BE next year but I have to see a LOT more consistency to actually say he is the best returning player in the BE.  Not sure how other than SJU hype machine can anyone actually say that at this point.

Lastly when teams have had HUGE 1 year turnarounds, Minnesota last year, Oklahoma this year, it usually has been accompanied by a big time national talent joining the program.  Amir Coffey with Minny and Trae Yound with Oklahoma.  There is no one on SJU's roster that has that type of talent.  But no doubt they should be improved but more importantly they expect to be SIGNIFICANTLY improved (remember the 2 year plan starts next year) and even more important than that they BETTER be significantly better next year...

It's odd that you site last year's record and say we weren't close in any of the losses. But we've been close in all but three games this season. We could just as easily be 8-3 in conference play this year if we had more depth and experience. We're so much more competitive this year over last year.

How much more experience do you want?  We have 6 guys playing that have been in college for 3 years or more.  Would you like to start 5 5th year seniors to have enough experience?  If you are talking coaching, thats a different story

Tariq Owens has started in 29 games over three years. This is the first season he's started more than eight. That's not a lot of experience.  This is the first time Marvin Clark has started more than 7 games. Justin Simon started zero games before coming here. Bashir Ahmed is in his second season. The only guys with real experience are Ponds and Yakwe. Sitting out a year isn't experience. I want guys who've averaged more than 15 minutes per game before this year (so add Owens to the list of experienced players). It's also a team that is largely playing only their second year together. That's not experience. I want a team that's largely played 3 years together

Here's the amount of minutes played before this season:
Owens: 815
Clark; 729
Simon: 180
Ponds: 1,109
Ahmed: 881
Yakwe: 1,284
Alibegovic: 978

That's 5,976 minutes from seven guys. Those seven average 284 minutes over last three years

Now here's Villanova
Brunson: 2,077
Bridges: 1,886
DiVincenzo: 919
Booth: 1,468
Paschall (a transfer): 1,623

That's 7,973 from five guys and they are supplanted by freshman. Those five average 531 minutes over the last three years.

That's a difference of 1,997 total minutes. Obviously skill is a factor and I'm not saying that if we had the experience that Villanova had we'd be Villanova. All I'm saying is, the actual in-game experience of our time is very weak.

SO what you're saying is these guys aren't Nova.  Thanks for that.

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 31, 2018, 09:58:38 PM

Quote from: ras on January 31, 2018, 09:53:31 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 09:34:20 PM

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 31, 2018, 09:24:43 PM

Quote from: Foryoureyesonly88 on January 31, 2018, 09:06:53 PM

Quote from: goredmen on January 31, 2018, 08:58:19 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 08:18:34 PM

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Complete insanity

He’s right though. We were well on pace for 20 wins this year before everything imploded. 22-25 wins next year ( assuming all known variables are still in place) is very realistic and should be the expectation.

More like you agree, rather than him being "right." 

IMO, Mullin may need to make two changes to the staff.  If those changes are made, along with everyone coming back and the newcomers doesn't renege, then there's a chance we could win 20 games.  Regardless, a change on the staff will need to be made, and it'll have to be with someone who'll make a difference.  Otherwise, it'll be more of the same.

By the way, Keita is raw (not directed at you, Eyes).  I don't care anything about his size.  He may have improved during his season off, but to expect much from him is setting yourself up for disappointment.  Maybe, playing last season with Chris Silva rubbed off on him.  We'll see.  I don't have much expectations from Keita next season.

Keita was raw. He also played 10 mpg as a true freshman for a team that made it to the national championship game. I'd like to think we could win 22-25 with him as a third year college player playing 20 mpg. Brooks isn't raw by any measurement. Clark played big minutes in the final four at PF and C. That's not a bad trio. Throw in Simon too in smaller lineups. These kids need be repositioned. Simon and Clark should be combining for 5 offensive boards a game.

If I’m not mistaken Keita was a 4 star player  out of hs and will benefit from the redshirt year. I’m also excited about Brooks, a player w real inside skills, which is something that IMO, Mullin has never had as a coach. As bad as this season has been, if we can keep the core intact, keep Brooks, and hire another experienced coach to help out, we can be in good shape.

Keita was a 4-star player coming out of HS.  I can name plenty of players who were 4-star players coming out of HS who didn't do much of anything in college.  I hope Keita comes out guns blazin', but I saw him a season ago and he's raw.  Hopefully, the redshirt season benefits him, but I'm not gonna expect too much from him next season.

I agree with the latter part of your reply, but those are a lot of "if's" from you, me, and several others.

Keita and Owens had very similar stats in their frosh years in the SEC.  Keita played a couple more mins/g, shot worse, scored less but rebounded a little more.  He will come in less polished than Tariq was last year, gives up a couple inches on Tariq as well.  All I'm hoping is that he uses his significantly bigger body to get more rebounds and a couple extra putbacks and solid on the ball defense.    I know Tariq had the opportunity to play more minutes but didn't, and Keita was behind a couple of other productive bigs but I'm just commenting on their time spent on the court frosh year and how it might project.

The biggest potential impact for next year for a big man/low post presence is Brooks...

Now you have to cross your fingers on him making it to SJU.

Not just this board read twitter and other boards plenty of used the lack of depth as an excuse...

Do you know what the word excuse means? Because it has a different definition than words like reason and cause.

No I am not making things up much like you are not making it up that you always gave Lavin the chance from the beginning...

You're wrong. I thought it was a brilliant hire and was quite excited at the prospects of a basketball resurgence. I quickly realized that he sucked though, just like all the UCLA fans said he did, and that beyond that he was (is) mentally ill, and a shameless self-promoting huckster out to gull the rubes. 

Quote from: Foad on February 01, 2018, 02:32:33 PM

Quote from: fordham96 on February 01, 2018, 02:02:16 PM

Quote from: wpc77 on February 01, 2018, 01:16:51 PM

Quote from: johnniesfilmmaker on February 01, 2018, 01:06:08 PM

Quote from: sju61982 on February 01, 2018, 11:56:06 AM

A comparison to this year, would be the 1999-2000 BC Eagles.  A little different, because they actually won their conference opener before the long losing streak of mostly close games, and it was a weaker league, but the margin of defeats are eerily similar to us this year.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2000-schedule.html

And, with most everyone back, here's how they did the following season.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2001-schedule.html

Granted, that's an extreme jump even by the most optimistic of standards, but it would be nice to have something close to that next year.

And to go along with my experience point. Of the 7 players that averaged more than five points per game in 1999-20, only two of those players had played at least a year at Boston College. Of the 7 players to do it in 00-01, six of them had played at least a year at Boston College.

Of the six players to average more than five points per game for us this year, only three had played the year prior at St. John's and only two were starters. And our Strength of Schedule is 4 points higher than what the first BC team had to deal with.

you are ignoring the revolving door that caused some of this.  We had a couple of experienced players that would have helped with this, and with depth, but they left.  the staff didn't manage the roster well

Precisely.  This is what gets me about the "short handed/lack of depth argument" people use to excuse how bad a year CM and SJU have had.  They act like he inherited this roster.  They act like someone else recruited and built this roster and he had no choice but to accept this roster.  Who the hell recruited this roster?  Who watched countless kids transfer, countless kids get missed in recruiting?  Who took chances on sit out transfers that you knew would not be able to suit up this year???  He did.  He owns this as well.

Nobody's saying Mullin doesn't own anything. He owns everything. But saying we have lots of experience when we don't have lots of experience is saying something that's demonstrably false. Why we don't have lots of experience is a separate issue.

If I say have a sandwich, there's a load of delicious black forest ham and swiss cheese and iceberg lettuce and russian dressing in the fridge and I just bough a bag of fresh kaiser rolls and and there's nothing in the refrigerator except a moldy loaf of white bread it's not an excuse to point out that the refrigerator is empty: it's correcting a false statement. It might be empty because Mullin forgot to go the store or because big fat Steve Lavin ate all the cold cuts to grow his man tits. Why the refrigerator is empty is different from the refrigerator actually being empty.

Things are bad enough without making up things to make them look worse.

Not just this board read twitter and other boards plenty of used the lack of depth as an excuse...

No I am not making things up much like you are not making it up that you always gave Lavin the chance from the beginning...

It's fair to criticize Mullin for not retaining some of the players and adding too many guards. But to call for his firing for that is ridiculous.

This team has clearly grown and made strides from last season. In conference losses last year, we lost only two by 10 points or less. So far, we've lost eight games by less than 10 points without our 2nd best player. Last year we were last in scoring defense and this year we are 3rd. Last year we were 9th in field goal percentage defense, this year we are first, last year we were 4th in steals trailing first place by 0.4 steals per game and this year we are first averaging two full steals a game more than the leader from last year and this year. Butler lead us in turnover margin by turnover a game (they had a +3.1 and we had a +2.1) whereas this year our turnover margin is double the second place Villanova. This is all without our 2nd best player. Our scoring offense dropped from 4th to 9th but last year, only two teams averaged more than 80 points per game. Villanova's 3rd place scoring offense from last year would rank 8th this year. 

We still can't rebound, shoot the three, or defend the three. But we've clearly made strides and have grown. Ponds last year never scored more than 29 points. He's scored over 30 four times and almost had a 40 point game while making zero 3's against the top ranked team in the country. Owens has developed and Simon shows some serious flashes of being a dynamic player. Yakwe has regressed but you can argue he only looked so good as a freshman because there was no other talented players on the roster.

I know it's been a disappointing season but to call for Mullin to be fired is completely irrational and unreasonable. Next year we will have roster balance and a team that's played a full season together (if he keeps everybody around, which sure, has been an issue) and a team led by upperclassmen.

It's extremely fair to criticize the staff for some of the decisions. Rohrssen, letting both Ellison and Mussini walk, and the Lovett situation. But to say he deserves to be fired is crazy and would be a program killer. Rebuilds take time and they take patience. This year was a setback but the staff deserves a chance to show they can rebound.

Quote from: johnniesfilmmaker on February 01, 2018, 12:50:35 PM

Quote from: rdstr25 on February 01, 2018, 12:21:40 PM

Quote from: johnniesfilmmaker on February 01, 2018, 11:13:39 AM

Quote from: fordham96 on January 31, 2018, 10:02:58 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 09:27:42 PM

Quote from: goredmen on January 31, 2018, 08:58:19 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 08:18:34 PM

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Complete insanity

We'll have depth for the first time. Size for the first time. Experience all over the court. Oh, and the best player in the conference as an upperclassman.

Couple of things.  I do think SJU can have a big turnaround next year.  But more importantly they will have to, there is no way he can win 7 league games next year and claim it was an improvement based on this year being a disaster.  Again he does not get the benefit of the doubt like he did after year 1.  He does not get to benefit from a disaster this year.  The year 4 expectations still remain.  As I said it is a two year plan now with a HUGE jump next year expected and then year 5 competing with Nova.  So I like your enthusiasm...

...but you are way  overstating things.  You are saying SJU will have depth and some frontcourt talent for the first time, that doesn't guarantee anything.  As you know the other 9 teams are not standing still.  They will have talent and depth and the idea that SJU is going to jump 10-11 wins based simply on extra bodies is a bit of a leap of faith.

Secondly you are giving WAAAYYY too much credit for last year's 8 wins.  Again if you count the BE Tourney they were 8-12.  All 12 losses weren't close.  They had zero chance to win any of them.  They won I counted 4 games that could have gone either way, both wins against Georgetown at MSG, road win at DePaul and the Butler game at Carnesecca.  They won every one, quite frankly they were probably closer to 6-14 than say 10-10.  Put it to you another way, they probably didn't improve as much as we thought last year.  So don't put too much stock in last year's record.  In fact if anything some of those close wins last year are starting to even out this year with losses.  Since they really had no close losses last year.

Lastly, Ponds the best player next year in the BE??  Hopefully he improves but right now based on production and the fact the teams they play on are simply more successful I would put Markus Howard of Marquette, Jalen Brunson/Mikal Bridges/Omari Spellman/Phil Booth/Donte D all have eligiblity for Nova left after this year., Kamar Baldwin of Butler is a terrific player, Kyri Thomas of Creighton is averagine 14.6 while shooting over 50% and is a Junior.  I think Shamorie can be one of the best guards in the BE next year but I have to see a LOT more consistency to actually say he is the best returning player in the BE.  Not sure how other than SJU hype machine can anyone actually say that at this point.

Lastly when teams have had HUGE 1 year turnarounds, Minnesota last year, Oklahoma this year, it usually has been accompanied by a big time national talent joining the program.  Amir Coffey with Minny and Trae Yound with Oklahoma.  There is no one on SJU's roster that has that type of talent.  But no doubt they should be improved but more importantly they expect to be SIGNIFICANTLY improved (remember the 2 year plan starts next year) and even more important than that they BETTER be significantly better next year...

It's odd that you site last year's record and say we weren't close in any of the losses. But we've been close in all but three games this season. We could just as easily be 8-3 in conference play this year if we had more depth and experience. We're so much more competitive this year over last year.

How much more experience do you want?  We have 6 guys playing that have been in college for 3 years or more.  Would you like to start 5 5th year seniors to have enough experience?  If you are talking coaching, thats a different story

Tariq Owens has started in 29 games over three years. This is the first season he's started more than eight. That's not a lot of experience.  This is the first time Marvin Clark has started more than 7 games. Justin Simon started zero games before coming here. Bashir Ahmed is in his second season. The only guys with real experience are Ponds and Yakwe. Sitting out a year isn't experience. I want guys who've averaged more than 15 minutes per game before this year (so add Owens to the list of experienced players). It's also a team that is largely playing only their second year together. That's not experience. I want a team that's largely played 3 years together

Here's the amount of minutes played before this season:
Owens: 815
Clark; 729
Simon: 180
Ponds: 1,109
Ahmed: 881
Yakwe: 1,284
Alibegovic: 978

That's 5,976 minutes from seven guys. Those seven average 284 minutes over last three years

Now here's Villanova
Brunson: 2,077
Bridges: 1,886
DiVincenzo: 919
Booth: 1,468
Paschall (a transfer): 1,623

That's 7,973 from five guys and they are supplanted by freshman. Those five average 531 minutes over the last three years.

That's a difference of 1,997 total minutes. Obviously skill is a factor and I'm not saying that if we had the experience that Villanova had we'd be Villanova. All I'm saying is, the actual in-game experience of our time is very weak.

SO what you're saying is these guys aren't Nova.  Thanks for that.

You're welcome. But if you could read all the way through, I already told you that we aren't Villanova. But a team with more experience would likely garner greater results. Just because we have guys who have been in school 3 or more years doesn't mean we have experience if most of that time was spent playing minimal minutes and sitting out a year.

-We need middle aged guys alongside Mullin. The average age on the bench sans Mitch is probably 32-33. For a coach w no experience, you need men who have been through the wars. (cough, JIM CREWS, cough).

-I don't want to hear about point differential, the spread coverage, category stats, etc. The only stat that matters is our record, and right now its a national embarrassment. We're amidst a 11 game losing streak about to face two top5 teams in the next 5 days.

-Yes, Marcus' departure is the immediate reason for our poor year. But its the roster mismanagement that allowed this to be the reason for failure. This years failure stems back to the first crack in the foundation as Sima left last December. Ever since then its been a downward spiral on the depth chart. We failed as a program this year bc of the 2017 class, point blank.

-There is no sugar coating this year, its deserves a F- grade, and heads should roll bc of it. No one, from fans to players to administration to donors expected or deserves 0-11 in Year3. There is no spinning this year to recruits, we've taken a step back and need to take three steps forward next year.

-We need middle aged guys alongside Mullin. The average age on the bench sans Mitch is probably 32-33. For a coach w no experience, you need men who have been through the wars. (cough, Jim Crews, cough).

-I don't want to hear about point differential, the spread coverage, category stats, etc. The only stat that matters is our record, and right now its a national embarrassment. We're amidst a 10 game losing streak about to face two top5 teams in the next 5 days.

-Yes, Marcus' departure is the immediate reason for our poor year. But its the roster mismanagement that allowed this to be the reason for failure. This years failure stems back to the first crack in the foundation as Sima left last December. Ever since then its been a downward spiral on the depth chart. We failed as a program this year bc of the 2017 class, point blank.

-There is no sugar coating this year, its deserves a F- grade, and heads should roll bc of it. No one, from fans to players to administration to donors expected or deserves 0-10 in Year3. There is no spinning this year to recruits, we've taken a step back and need to take three steps forward next year.

If you only care about the record, then why watch the game? You could spend your time doing a million other things if all that matters to you is the record especially during a rebuild. I agree there needs to be staff changes but this year certainly doesn't deserve an F-grade unless you were an irrational fan who legitimately expected an NCAA Tournament appearance this year and would've been disappointed by an NIT bid even with Lovett healthy for a full season. I would give this season a D+ with the potential for a C-. Win both against Marquette, beat DePaul and Seton Hall to finish 4-3 in the conference.

I also don't understand why people assume we are going to get spanked by Duke when we thought we'd be spanked by Villanova, Xavier, and Creighton and we played them extremely tough. I certainly wouldn't bet on us but I'm also not betting on Duke if the line is anything more than like 10

Quote from: QuanMan on February 01, 2018, 03:25:06 PM

-We need middle aged guys alongside Mullin. The average age on the bench sans Mitch is probably 32-33. For a coach w no experience, you need men who have been through the wars. (cough, Jim Crews, cough).

-I don't want to hear about point differential, the spread coverage, category stats, etc. The only stat that matters is our record, and right now its a national embarrassment. We're amidst a 10 game losing streak about to face two top5 teams in the next 5 days.

-Yes, Marcus' departure is the immediate reason for our poor year. But its the roster mismanagement that allowed this to be the reason for failure. This years failure stems back to the first crack in the foundation as Sima left last December. Ever since then its been a downward spiral on the depth chart. We failed as a program this year bc of the 2017 class, point blank.

-There is no sugar coating this year, its deserves a F- grade, and heads should roll bc of it. No one, from fans to players to administration to donors expected or deserves 0-10 in Year3. There is no spinning this year to recruits, we've taken a step back and need to take three steps forward next year.

If you only care about the record, then why watch the game? You could spend your time doing a million other things if all that matters to you is the record especially during a rebuild. I agree there needs to be staff changes but this year certainly doesn't deserve an F-grade unless you were an irrational fan who legitimately expected an NCAA Tournament appearance this year and would've been disappointed by an NIT bid even with Lovett healthy for a full season. I would give this season a D+ with the potential for a C-. Win both against Marquette, beat DePaul and Seton Hall to finish 4-3 in the conference.

I also don't understand why people assume we are going to get spanked by Duke when we thought we'd be spanked by Villanova, Xavier, and Creighton and we played them extremely tough. I certainly wouldn't bet on us but I'm also not betting on Duke if the line is anything more than like 10

This is the 3rd season for the staff, and a staff who didn't have to concern themselves with any kind of banishments.  So, why shouldn't he or anyone look or want wins in the 3rd season?  If this was youth league, then I'd understand your sentiments.  Yes, this team is still in the rebuilding stages, but you're seriously overplaying that card.  Some "hoop heads" had this team anywhere between 5th-7th in the Big East, as a few thought we'd either make the NCAA Tournament or be on the "bubble."

This staff did drop the ball this season when it came to depth.  That's clear as day to anyone who is even halfway paying attention.  If you don't think there are fundamental flaws with how we play, then I feel you're either watching the game blindfolded or simply sticking your head in the sand.

As, far as getting blown out by Duke....  I don't think we'll get blown out, either.  Unfortunately, at the end of the day, I think we're gonna be on the short end of the stick once the final horn sounds.  I don't care about the margin of losses at this stage because it's still an "L" when it's all said and done.  I just wanna eventually get 3 or 4 wins before the season is over.  Each passing game, it's looking less likely. 

(cough, JIM CREWS, cough).

You should get that looked at. Jim Crews (never heard of him) is 157-233 as HC since 2000. Take away the two years he directly follow Majerus and he's 102-219. That's be like getting the guy who piloted the Hindenberg to co-pilot the Titanic.

Quote from: we are sju on January 31, 2018, 04:31:36 PM

Hated Lavin- While I agree in principle with you on most of the Lavin stuff, a little bit of it is irrational.

I never claimed to be rational. Lavin failed because he was scared he wasn't going to succeed. He's bulbous headed double chinned walking neurosis who ended his tenure blubbering on the radio like a big girl's blouse. If he were just a little bit more awful I'd pity him, but he's too mediocre even for that. All that's left is contempt.

Quote

Loved Norm- This just can't be explained no matter how many times you tried.

I did not love Norm. I recognized that he was in over his head and so defended him against unjust criticism. I did that because he was the only coach SJ has had in 30 years who deserved better than he got.

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Hated Jarvis- Understandable the way it ended, however I think I have noticed just a little thawing in the hatred. Just a little? Time and bad basketball heals all wounds?

Hated Jarvis, I just hate Lavin more. The wounds are fresher. Just like you hate your last girlfriend more than the one before her and her more than the one before that.

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Liked Fran?- This one is unclear. Seldom mention him.

Didn't mind Fran. Disloyal little dwarf though. Got what he deserved in the end and got it good and hard.

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Hated Mahoney?- Really just going with every other coach theory on this one.

No independent memory of the Mahoney years. I think I spent most of those years either drunk or gigging on a cruise ship or gigging drunk on a cruise ship.

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Liked Louie.

Liked Lou but couldn't wait for him to get out. I was young then though. I wish I'd appreciated him while he was around. I had no idea it was so difficult to achieve what he achieved.

How can you possibly hate lavin more then Jarvis?

Quote from: QuanMan on February 01, 2018, 03:25:06 PM

(cough, JIM CREWS, cough).

You should get that looked at. Jim Crews (never heard of him) is 157-233 as HC since 2000. Take away the two years he directly follow Majerus and he's 102-219. That's be like getting the guy who piloted the Hindenberg to co-pilot the Titanic.

30 years of head coaching experience, Bob Knight disciple, lifetime record of 431-404, a free agent. Other names are Bobby Lutz, Bruiser Flint, to name a few. Not specifically these guys but just the direction I'd like to see them go as far as an experienced hire. As a person with limitless resources on all levels I don't understand why CM doesn't have excellent assistants with tenure and professional expertise.

Quote from: QuanMan on February 01, 2018, 03:25:06 PM

(cough, JIM CREWS, cough).

You should get that looked at. Jim Crews (never heard of him) is 157-233 as HC since 2000. Take away the two years he directly follow Majerus and he's 102-219. That's be like getting the guy who piloted the Hindenberg to co-pilot the Titanic.

The problem is that, ya know, the good coaches that win are already employed.

Crews is a solid Xs and Os guy but couldn't recruit to save his life. If you give him players he'll know what to do with them, which is why he won with Majerus' players. He'd be solid as an assistant for us

Quote from: fordham96 on February 01, 2018, 02:02:16 PM

Quote from: wpc77 on February 01, 2018, 01:16:51 PM

Quote from: johnniesfilmmaker on February 01, 2018, 01:06:08 PM

Quote from: sju61982 on February 01, 2018, 11:56:06 AM

A comparison to this year, would be the 1999-2000 BC Eagles.  A little different, because they actually won their conference opener before the long losing streak of mostly close games, and it was a weaker league, but the margin of defeats are eerily similar to us this year.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2000-schedule.html

And, with most everyone back, here's how they did the following season.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2001-schedule.html

Granted, that's an extreme jump even by the most optimistic of standards, but it would be nice to have something close to that next year.

And to go along with my experience point. Of the 7 players that averaged more than five points per game in 1999-20, only two of those players had played at least a year at Boston College. Of the 7 players to do it in 00-01, six of them had played at least a year at Boston College.

Of the six players to average more than five points per game for us this year, only three had played the year prior at St. John's and only two were starters. And our Strength of Schedule is 4 points higher than what the first BC team had to deal with.

you are ignoring the revolving door that caused some of this.  We had a couple of experienced players that would have helped with this, and with depth, but they left.  the staff didn't manage the roster well

Precisely.  This is what gets me about the "short handed/lack of depth argument" people use to excuse how bad a year CM and SJU have had.  They act like he inherited this roster.  They act like someone else recruited and built this roster and he had no choice but to accept this roster.  Who the hell recruited this roster?  Who watched countless kids transfer, countless kids get missed in recruiting?  Who took chances on sit out transfers that you knew would not be able to suit up this year???  He did.  He owns this as well.

Nobody's saying Mullin doesn't own anything. He owns everything. But saying we have lots of experience when we don't have lots of experience is saying something that's demonstrably false. Why we don't have lots of experience is a separate issue.

If I say have a sandwich, there's a load of delicious black forest ham and swiss cheese and iceberg lettuce and russian dressing in the fridge and I just bough a bag of fresh kaiser rolls and and there's nothing in the refrigerator except a moldy loaf of white bread it's not an excuse to point out that the refrigerator is empty: it's correcting a false statement. It might be empty because Mullin forgot to go the store or because big fat Steve Lavin ate all the cold cuts to grow his man tits. Why the refrigerator is empty is different from the refrigerator actually being empty.

Things are bad enough without making up things to make them look worse.

I thank you foady. You helped get through a very boring day at work. Now I am laughing on the train. 3 years later. Lavin ate all the cold cuts and has man tits. I am laughing so hard snot came out. Obsessed much? Come to the game i will buy you a sandwich. You should really watch our coach in person. Not much coaching goes on, but he will most certainly tell someone to shut the fxck up. Don’t think we have a chance to win. Good chance he gets atleast 1 tech. Reasonable chance he challenges coach k to a fight.

Quote from: Foad on February 01, 2018, 03:45:15 PM

Quote from: QuanMan on February 01, 2018, 03:25:06 PM

(cough, JIM CREWS, cough).

You should get that looked at. Jim Crews (never heard of him) is 157-233 as HC since 2000. Take away the two years he directly follow Majerus and he's 102-219. That's be like getting the guy who piloted the Hindenberg to co-pilot the Titanic.

30 years of head coaching experience, Bob Knight disciple, lifetime record of 431-404, a free agent. Other names are Bobby Lutz, Bruiser Flint, to name a few. Not specifically these guys but just the direction I'd like to see them go as far as an experienced hire. As a person with limitless resources on all levels I don't understand why CM doesn't have excellent assistants with tenure and professional expertise.

I bet anyone on here 2 beers to one at first Garden game next year, St. jean is still the top assistant