Patience/Comparable Rebuilds

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Foad

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Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #80 on: February 01, 2018, 04:37:26 PM »
How can you possibly hate lavin more then Jarvis?

I don't know, how can people possibly put mayonnaise on lobster. I find the thought of it abhorrent but some people love it. Why would anyone vote for Obama? Who buys Lady Gaga records? Why does Stephen King sell more books than Cormac McCarthy? The world is full of mysteries. De gustibus non est disputandum.

johnniesfilmmaker

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Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #81 on: February 01, 2018, 04:49:46 PM »
-We need middle aged guys alongside Mullin. The average age on the bench sans Mitch is probably 32-33. For a coach w no experience, you need men who have been through the wars. (cough, Jim Crews, cough).

-I don't want to hear about point differential, the spread coverage, category stats, etc. The only stat that matters is our record, and right now its a national embarrassment. We're amidst a 10 game losing streak about to face two top5 teams in the next 5 days.

-Yes, Marcus' departure is the immediate reason for our poor year. But its the roster mismanagement that allowed this to be the reason for failure. This years failure stems back to the first crack in the foundation as Sima left last December. Ever since then its been a downward spiral on the depth chart. We failed as a program this year bc of the 2017 class, point blank.

-There is no sugar coating this year, its deserves a F- grade, and heads should roll bc of it. No one, from fans to players to administration to donors expected or deserves 0-10 in Year3. There is no spinning this year to recruits, we've taken a step back and need to take three steps forward next year.

If you only care about the record, then why watch the game? You could spend your time doing a million other things if all that matters to you is the record especially during a rebuild. I agree there needs to be staff changes but this year certainly doesn't deserve an F-grade unless you were an irrational fan who legitimately expected an NCAA Tournament appearance this year and would've been disappointed by an NIT bid even with Lovett healthy for a full season. I would give this season a D+ with the potential for a C-. Win both against Marquette, beat DePaul and Seton Hall to finish 4-3 in the conference.

I also don't understand why people assume we are going to get spanked by Duke when we thought we'd be spanked by Villanova, Xavier, and Creighton and we played them extremely tough. I certainly wouldn't bet on us but I'm also not betting on Duke if the line is anything more than like 10

This is the 3rd season for the staff, and a staff who didn't have to concern themselves with any kind of banishments.  So, why shouldn't he or anyone look or want wins in the 3rd season?  If this was youth league, then I'd understand your sentiments.  Yes, this team is still in the rebuilding stages, but you're seriously overplaying that card.  Some "hoop heads" had this team anywhere between 5th-7th in the Big East, as a few thought we'd either make the NCAA Tournament or be on the "bubble."

This staff did drop the ball this season when it came to depth.  That's clear as day to anyone who is even halfway paying attention.  If you don't think there are fundamental flaws with how we play, then I feel you're either watching the game blindfolded or simply sticking your head in the sand.

As, far as getting blown out by Duke....  I don't think we'll get blown out, either.  Unfortunately, at the end of the day, I think we're gonna be on the short end of the stick once the final horn sounds.  I don't care about the margin of losses at this stage because it's still an "L" when it's all said and done.  I just wanna eventually get 3 or 4 wins before the season is over.  Each passing game, it's looking less likely.

There are definitely flaws but we've also clearly made strides from last season. So what makes you think that we won't correct some of these flaws? Also, Owens, Simon, and Clark are playing almost double or triple the minutes played the last season that they actually played.

It's the 3rd season and we should expect wins. Yes we were predicted to finish 5-7 with Lovett. Predictions don't mean anything though. We could've finished 5th if everything broke right but the lack of experience would lead me to believe we probably would've finished closer to 7th and likely would've missed the tournament (but we might've snuck in) so NIT was the most reasonable expectation. Losing Lovett crippled us to no end.

Again, the staff deserves criticism, we should've been better. But it's not like we aren't competitive, it's not like we're getting smoked night in and night out, it's not like we aren't right there almost every night which is a drastic difference from last season. So to jump right to fire Mullin is irrational. Criticize all you want, you have valid reasons to. But people abandoning ship in year 3 is just crazy, especially when year 1 there was nothing. This team is better than last year's team. We are better defensively, we are smarter offensively (in terms of not turning the ball over). The record was better last year, partly, because the league wasn't as good as it is this year and we had our 2nd best player and two key role players that had experience in Ellison and Mussini.

Staff needs to teach kids not to leave their feet on defense, they need to work on defending the three pointer, and they need to find ways to get open looks at the 3 and make them. Personally, I think a lot of this will come from Shamorie being a better catch and shoot player. Most of his 3's come on hesi pull-ups or step backs. Simon also needs to develop a shot. This year's been a disappointment but the staff deserves a chance to keep moving forward.

Foad

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Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #82 on: February 01, 2018, 04:54:51 PM »
Crews is a solid Xs and Os guy but couldn't recruit to save his life. If you give him players he'll know what to do with them, which is why he won with Majerus' players.

Or maybe he had a really good assistant. Or maybe he inherited nine well coached upperclassmen his first years at St Louis who didn't need his help and there were seven left his second year ditto and then when he was left to his own devices with eleven underclassmen his third year and eight the next he flamed out spectacularly because he couldn't coach a Bangkok whore to give him head. As I said I never heard of him. Maybe he's a genius, but his record is pretty dubious


Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #83 on: February 01, 2018, 04:55:17 PM »
How can you possibly hate lavin more then Jarvis?

I don't know, how can people possibly put mayonnaise on lobster. I find the thought of it abhorrent but some people love it. Why would anyone vote for Obama? Who buys Lady Gaga records? Why does Stephen King sell more books than Cormac McCarthy? The world is full of mysteries. De gustibus non est disputandum.

First off I must admit I like Stephen King. But it would be tough for anyone to sell more books than King because he writes like 5 of them a year. Just by sheer numbers no one could match him. He just wrote one while I was writing this post.

Johnny23

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Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #84 on: February 01, 2018, 04:57:39 PM »
Certainly made strides from last season? Like the kind that go in reverse? The players need some real in-game coaching. That's all.

Foad

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Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #85 on: February 01, 2018, 04:59:26 PM »
Now I am laughing on the train.

Do they have toilets on the train or are you freelancing?

Quote
Reasonable chance he challenges coach k to a fight.

Mullin gets T'd up for chasing Schrewhnski up the clock and cutting off his tail with a carving knife. That I'd pay to see.

Foad

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Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #86 on: February 01, 2018, 05:02:18 PM »
I must admit I like Stephen King.

I'm sorry to hear that. PM me your address and I'll send you a copy of Blood Meridian. Once you go Cormac you never go back.


Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #87 on: February 01, 2018, 05:02:40 PM »
Certainly made strides from last season? Like the kind that go in reverse? The players need some real in-game coaching. That's all.

That dude would've made the wacky, Jim Jones proud.

Foad

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Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #88 on: February 01, 2018, 05:03:53 PM »
Certainly made strides from last season?

Agree or disagree: before Marcus Lovett was injured St John's was playing much better in 2017 than they were in 2016.

TONYD3

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Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #89 on: February 01, 2018, 05:16:30 PM »
Certainly made strides from last season?

Agree or disagree: before Marcus Lovett was injured St John's was playing much better in 2017 than they were in 2016.
I agree. Think they are still better. Defense is much better. Ellison and Ahmed at the same time was scary. Simon >>> Ellison.

Johnny23

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Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #90 on: February 01, 2018, 05:22:03 PM »
Certainly made strides from last season?

Agree or disagree: before Marcus Lovett was injured St John's was playing much better in 2017 than they were in 2016.

With Lovett, they were playing good this year against lesser comp. but the Big East season is the real litmus test.

Foad

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Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #91 on: February 01, 2018, 05:29:32 PM »
Certainly made strides from last season?

Agree or disagree: before Marcus Lovett was injured St John's was playing much better in 2017 than they were in 2016.
I agree. Think they are still better. Defense is much better. Ellison and Ahmed at the same time was scary. Simon >>> Ellison.

I agree. Let's have a foad fun conversation. And then if this works out you can buy me lunch.

I think early in the season they were moving the ball better on offense and were better defensively and in general were a year bigger and stronger and more mature and on their way to 17 or 18 wins and an NIT berth. Which is all I expected in year three.

Question: How'd they get better? That is, if Mullin stinks as much as you believe, why would more exposure to him make them better? If he's as toxic as you say, wouldn't they have gotten worse?

Johnny23

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Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #92 on: February 01, 2018, 05:32:39 PM »
Certainly made strides from last season? Like the kind that go in reverse? The players need some real in-game coaching. That's all.

That dude would've made the wacky, Jim Jones proud.

 :) Yeah whacky.

goredmen

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Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #93 on: February 01, 2018, 05:35:02 PM »
Crews is a solid Xs and Os guy but couldn't recruit to save his life. If you give him players he'll know what to do with them, which is why he won with Majerus' players.

Or maybe he had a really good assistant. Or maybe he inherited nine well coached upperclassmen his first years at St Louis who didn't need his help and there were seven left his second year ditto and then when he was left to his own devices with eleven underclassmen his third year and eight the next he flamed out spectacularly because he couldn't coach a Bangkok whore to give him head. As I said I never heard of him. Maybe he's a genius, but his record is pretty dubious



Mike Dunlap's record in D1 is terrible and he was the guy that figured out how to win with Norm's players with an idiot as head coach.

We aren't going to find a guy that has a great head coaching record that is willing to be an assistant in Jamaica, Queens

Foad

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Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #94 on: February 01, 2018, 05:36:46 PM »
Certainly made strides from last season?

Agree or disagree: before Marcus Lovett was injured St John's was playing much better in 2017 than they were in 2016.

With Lovett, they were playing good this year against lesser comp. but the Big East season is the real litmus test.

Fair enough. Last year they lost to LIU and Delaware State and whoever else. So they were playing worse last year against lesser competition and better this year against the arguably a better schedule and were unable to prove themselves against a real litmus test because a key component of the team - the second best player - was removed from the equation.

So when OP said they'd made strides from last year he wasn't completely wrong. They took a step forward in terms of basketball on the court and a step backward in terms of personnel and depth and roster continuity. Is that a fair statement?

Foad

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Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #95 on: February 01, 2018, 05:38:11 PM »
Mike Dunlap's record in D1 is terrible and he was the guy that figured out how to win with Norm's players with an idiot as head coach.

Mike Dunlap sucks and Jim Crews is a genius, is that your final answer? Do you want a lifeline?

goredmen

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Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #96 on: February 01, 2018, 05:40:31 PM »
Mike Dunlap's record in D1 is terrible and he was the guy that figured out how to win with Norm's players with an idiot as head coach.

Mike Dunlap sucks and Jim Crews is a genius, is that your final answer? Do you want a lifeline?

I was praising the job Mike Dunlap did here. I don't see how you thought I said he sucked from what I wrote there. Try reading it again.

Johnny23

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Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #97 on: February 01, 2018, 05:41:17 PM »
Certainly made strides from last season?

Agree or disagree: before Marcus Lovett was injured St John's was playing much better in 2017 than they were in 2016.

With Lovett, they were playing good this year against lesser comp. but the Big East season is the real litmus test.

Fair enough. Last year they lost to LIU and Delaware State and whoever else. So they were playing worse last year against lesser competition and better this year against the arguably a better schedule and were unable to prove themselves against a real litmus test because a key component of the team - the second best player - was removed from the equation.

So when OP said they'd made strides from last year he wasn't completely wrong. They took a step forward in terms of basketball on the court and a step backward in terms of personnel and depth and roster continuity. Is that a fair statement?

That's fair.

TONYD3

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Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #98 on: February 01, 2018, 05:47:44 PM »
Certainly made strides from last season?

Agree or disagree: before Marcus Lovett was injured St John's was playing much better in 2017 than they were in 2016.
I agree. Think they are still better. Defense is much better. Ellison and Ahmed at the same time was scary. Simon >>> Ellison.

I agree. Let's have a foad fun conversation. And then if this works out you can buy me lunch.

I think early in the season they were moving the ball better on offense and were better defensively and in general were a year bigger and stronger and more mature and on their way to 17 or 18 wins and an NIT berth. Which is all I expected in year three.

Question: How'd they get better? That is, if Mullin stinks as much as you believe, why would more exposure to him make them better? If he's as toxic as you say, wouldn't they have gotten worse?
I don’t believe he is toxic. I think he is useless, maybe that is not the best word. I don’t believe he should be a head coach in the big east. I am not trying to antagonize (right now) . This team has legit big east players. Last year not the case. Games were won. You like checking my posts. I was shocked every time we won. I thought the offense last year sucked and so did the defense. We got lucky a few times. Ponds and Lovett can mask a lot of bad coaching.

We play duke Saturday. What is he going to do to get shots for ponds. They are going to double that high pick just like butler did. I think the defense still sucks. Simon and Michigan state kid are just better defenders.

10 games left. If you like him so much. You should expect to see some improvement. Close losses when he makes glaring coaching errors don’t count as improvements. Better then last year isn’t good enough. We have 2 very good players. Ahmed is r ally dumb, but he isn’t horrible. Owens and mich state are bettter then ok players.  Yakwe should be more productive. He isn’t and shouldn’t be this bad.

Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #99 on: February 01, 2018, 07:21:41 PM »
How can you possibly hate lavin more then Jarvis?

I don't know, how can people possibly put mayonnaise on lobster. I find the thought of it abhorrent but some people love it. Why would anyone vote for Obama? Who buys Lady Gaga records? Why does Stephen King sell more books than Cormac McCarthy? The world is full of mysteries. De gustibus non est disputandum.
Is it a personal thing or do you actually view Jarvis as a better coach at St Johns then Lavin?  No sense in dragging up the merits of lavin as a coach as you and I obviously fall on opposite ends of that spectrum. If you're straight up comparing lavin to Jarvis though you're talking one guy who had, at worst,  moderate success vs another guy who paid players and had a player sex scandal under his watch leading to us being on probation/ sanctions.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 07:22:44 PM by colelatshaw2010 »