Does Lavin deserve an extension

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Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #140 on: March 03, 2015, 05:45:15 PM »
Maybe the real question is are we comfortable with a coach who can only win with seniors?

I've made great hay calling Lavin a chowderhead but maybe he's stupid like a fox. He found a situation where expectations are so low that making the tournament every four years is considered the greatest accomplishment since the building of the pyramids. He makes every excuse in the book and jibber jabbers about unicorns and baby steps and the rubes lap it up and can't wait to give him another 15 million dollars for his trouble. In five years he's won two post season games - a first round NIT game by 2 and a BE game he would have lost except Jim Burr is blind and Tim Higgins is a drunk. He comes right out and says he feels absolutely no pressure to win. Nah, not at Saint John's, it's not like UCLA. He doesn't have to win, he recruits the Appian Way every June, and he can even wear his pajamas on the sidelines. It's a pretty good gig all things considered.

If JaKarr Sampson dunks that ball against PC last year in Big East tourney. St. John's dances and he has 3 NCAA appearances in 5 years. Now I understand we're not playing horseshoes but I'd take the glass half full at this point.

Darn that Jakarr Sampson. He ruined everything. Although maybe if Lavin hadn't thrown away half a dozen games last January mixing and matching his rotations and starting his walkons the season wouldn't have come down to a single split second decision made by a sophomore who everyone and their brother claims was a cancer anyway.

I don't really care who the coach is and frankly I like having Lavin to kick around. He's my Jerry Ford. But if you think Lavin is the answer all that shows is that you don't understand the question.

There are less than a handful of a coaches who are truly the answer. I just don't believe the grass is any greener without Lavin for St. John's. I believe continuity is important than pressing reset button.

Yeah, it definitely didn't work when UVA fired Leitao for Bennett

Leito had the worst record of any coach at UVA since the 70's (which was still better than Norm Roberts) and Bennett had a dreadful first two seasons at UVA while reshaping the program. Not a good comparison.
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Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #141 on: March 03, 2015, 06:17:20 PM »
Take a look at the big picture

And what is the big picture in your mind?

It is what it is. These kids will get  to the NCAA despite Lavins shenanigans. Good for them. There will be plenty of time in the offseason to pick the Lavin situation apart.

And everyone will come to their same conclusions! It's like the Republicans with Obama, he hasn't made a correct decision since he was elected and never will. What will happen will happen with no input from this Board. Funny this is the same conversation Terp fans were having about Turgeon last year, look at the big picture, which wasn't too good. Today different story.

Not comparable.   They had talent returning.  Wells, Layman, Pack etc  And they had Trimble inked.   

If Sheed was as good as Trimble is this freshman year, do you think we have danced last year. I suppose he was coached up by Turgeon. When you are rebuilding it takes some luck and skill of course. Remember that 5 UMD players transferred out last year, do you think they were all stiffs. I live down here and nobody was happy with him. Prior to the Wisconsin game my friends didn't trust him at all, now they are warming up, but worry if Trimble declares will they go back to last years performance.

Few fans are rarely happy with their coach, everyone is smarter.


Actually, Melo was coached up by Joe Wooten.  Melo was mostly SG frosh/soph seasons, and made the transition to PG his Jr. year at O'Connell.  He still is a score first PG, but he can go left/right and distribute to teammates good enough for now.  He needs to improve his A/TO ratio quite a bit to get ready for the next level. IMO, Turgeon coached him up the most in the psychological department when PG Seth Allen unexpectedly transferred.  He let Melo play his game and didn't pressure him too much. 


I say this because that is the one primary area Sheed needs to keep working on - consistently getting his head in the game.  Sheed's recent uptick in play has quietly (I say quietly because of the loud boom from Dom and Phil's play) supported the team's push forward.  Sheed's decision making and shooting in the flow of the offense is markedly improved. 


I still want the program to take a further step forward (yes, results-wise) the next 5 years.  Can Lavin get us there? I'm not sure. The one thing that has irked most of us is the uneven recruiting numbers.  I can deal with the coaching quirks as they will not cost "many" games, but this staff needs to keep getting talent in at a manageable level, i.e., year in, year out.  I really don't want to hear about a variety of circumstances why we're sitting with another potentially unbalanced class. Strange as it seems, we'll all be very thankful if Sheed and Chris are here next season to provide some starter continuity for Sampson and whoever joins him. We all were looking at doom if they left after this year.  I do not believe it will happen if they're smart, but I think this is most important for Lavin's next two years if he stays.


We are no means to be a lock with a coach that is a sure thing to do better than this staff if a move was made.  I like 2-3 coaches who I am pretty sure will do better the next 10 years (Hurley, Miller, and plug in any of a few more), but if we do not connect with them after making a move, there is some risk we could step back a bit - yes, now there's a smidge of room to take steps back - we should give Lavin credit for that, however begrudgingly some might be inclined.


Since Turgeon was mentioned earlier, and being a long time Terps fan (not as long as STJ's :) , I know it will be hard to get a coach with Turgeon's pedigree that is seemingly a best bet for taking it to the next level.  That is why, if a move is made, it better be a late 30s, early 40s HC with some experience and success, but also has the eye of the tiger energy to recruit his behind off and get it done.  The up and down recruiting years has me wavering on whether Lavin and the staff can get it done to improve on the past 5 years for the next 5.  I don't know who feels like gambling or cashing in on the safe bet of slightly above mediocre.  I really am on the fence right now.  If this was 20 years ago, Houdini would pull a sweet 16 out of his hat and quell the natives' drumming for another season.  we'll see what unfolds here.........


 


 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 06:18:03 PM by bball purist »

Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #142 on: March 03, 2015, 06:21:18 PM »
Turgeon has a real shot of landing a diamond soon ;)
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Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #143 on: March 03, 2015, 06:29:12 PM »
Maybe the real question is are we comfortable with a coach who can only win with seniors?

I've made great hay calling Lavin a chowderhead but maybe he's stupid like a fox. He found a situation where expectations are so low that making the tournament every four years is considered the greatest accomplishment since the building of the pyramids. He makes every excuse in the book and jibber jabbers about unicorns and baby steps and the rubes lap it up and can't wait to give him another 15 million dollars for his trouble. In five years he's won two post season games - a first round NIT game by 2 and a BE game he would have lost except Jim Burr is blind and Tim Higgins is a drunk. He comes right out and says he feels absolutely no pressure to win. Nah, not at Saint John's, it's not like UCLA. He doesn't have to win, he recruits the Appian Way every June, and he can even wear his pajamas on the sidelines. It's a pretty good gig all things considered.

If JaKarr Sampson dunks that ball against PC last year in Big East tourney. St. John's dances and he has 3 NCAA appearances in 5 years. Now I understand we're not playing horseshoes but I'd take the glass half full at this point.

Darn that Jakarr Sampson. He ruined everything. Although maybe if Lavin hadn't thrown away half a dozen games last January mixing and matching his rotations and starting his walkons the season wouldn't have come down to a single split second decision made by a sophomore who everyone and their brother claims was a cancer anyway.

I don't really care who the coach is and frankly I like having Lavin to kick around. He's my Jerry Ford. But if you think Lavin is the answer all that shows is that you don't understand the question.

There are less than a handful of a coaches who are truly the answer. I just don't believe the grass is any greener without Lavin for St. John's. I believe continuity is important than pressing reset button.

Can he still recruit at an elite level?    Because the last two seasons make me think not.   

Absolutely.

2013- Rysheed Jordan, Orlando Sanchez
2014- Adonis Delarosa, Joey Delarosa, Amar Alibegovic, Keith Thomas, Myles Stewart, Jay Henderson

2014 they swung for the fences on a few guys and missed. With the roster so loaded with upperclassman they could take that risk but they should have taken a more practical approach. Example a guy like Ben Bentil would have helped this team but they didn't go after him. All in all though I like Amar and Adonis. If Keith Thomas was on this team they would have really had a good rotation down low.

As for 2015 Brandon Sampson is as good of a recruit that has ever come here. They should have had Briscoe but they can still get Diallo. That's incredible. Doughty is a tough kid who is cut from the same cloth as DJ Kennedy. Fans will like him.

I do think St. John's needs to do a better job of having some plan B kids. They're after some big fish and they've hooked more than they've lost but need to be on some 3-star guys too.
I still get on the phone with Pervis and try and get Malik over here. PT galore. Terps have way less PT to give.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 06:31:57 PM by bball purist »

Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #144 on: March 03, 2015, 06:30:37 PM »
Turgeon has a real shot of landing a diamond soon ;)


Everything I've seen had Terps at around 10%.  I think the victory last week puts Stone right in the cross hairs. It's good to read your opinion. I think with Carter Jr and Stone, they might be top 10 again next season.

Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #145 on: March 03, 2015, 07:01:49 PM »
If Lavin does not get Diallo, then his main focus should be balancing the roster. A few JUCOs, transfers and/or 5th year players.

Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #146 on: March 03, 2015, 07:55:43 PM »
Maybe the real question is are we comfortable with a coach who can only win with seniors?

I've made great hay calling Lavin a chowderhead but maybe he's stupid like a fox. He found a situation where expectations are so low that making the tournament every four years is considered the greatest accomplishment since the building of the pyramids. He makes every excuse in the book and jibber jabbers about unicorns and baby steps and the rubes lap it up and can't wait to give him another 15 million dollars for his trouble. In five years he's won two post season games - a first round NIT game by 2 and a BE game he would have lost except Jim Burr is blind and Tim Higgins is a drunk. He comes right out and says he feels absolutely no pressure to win. Nah, not at Saint John's, it's not like UCLA. He doesn't have to win, he recruits the Appian Way every June, and he can even wear his pajamas on the sidelines. It's a pretty good gig all things considered.

If JaKarr Sampson dunks that ball against PC last year in Big East tourney. St. John's dances and he has 3 NCAA appearances in 5 years. Now I understand we're not playing horseshoes but I'd take the glass half full at this point.

Or how bout if he doesnt foul a 3pt shooter up 3 pts against pstate?
*wipes ketchup from his eyes* - I guess Heinz sight isn’t 20/20.

hnk

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Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #147 on: March 03, 2015, 08:03:43 PM »
We missed a ton of foul shots in that game (even D'Lo)....Lavin's fault of course.

Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #148 on: March 03, 2015, 08:05:41 PM »
Desco, you deserve Coach K ....the top coach in college basketball history.  And of course, you'd still complain,but you deserve nothing less.

Really?   I don't like Lavin, so that means I could only be satisfied by the winning-est coach ever?     

He has moved the program forward.  We are better than we were under Norm.  The perception of the program and it's visibility has improved.  He made a tournament in 2010 and it looks like he might again this season.
All of these things are true.

But I truthfully don't know if that is good enough.   I also look at the state of the program and wonder if the brief success of two 1st round losses, is worth struggling for the next 2+ years.


Desco I think you are a good poster whos only problems people have with you revolves around your position on lavin. That is what it is. But you have got to stop doing what you did above. Before this season started it was "now lavin will be coming off of his 4th straight year of no NCAA", now its "Two first round exits". Guess what, the first part never happened and the second part might just as easily be a visit to the sweet 16. Ive seen you call out posters for off predictions in the past, myself included, just know that thats a title dawned by everyone.
*wipes ketchup from his eyes* - I guess Heinz sight isn’t 20/20.

jr49

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Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #149 on: March 03, 2015, 09:03:31 PM »
What are the reasons he deserves an extension?

3 - 20 win season out of 5
2 - NCAA Tournament bids
The first group of Seniors he has to stay are all graduating.



From a basketball sense, were you expecting more?

Sure but I wasn't expecting him to have cancer for a year either.  To pretend like that didn't affect things would be foolish.  If we get a good recruiting class for next year he deserves to come back.  I bet 3/5 appearances would be fair to expect from lavin going forward personally.

He had cancer yes. But he also proclaimed himself the teams GM, traveling around the world on so called recruiting trips. Team should be stacked, not in rebuilding mode yet again.

when has SJU ever been STACKED..?
They were not stacked and thats part of it. The last 2 classes could be a reason not to bring him back. Looking for shooters and bringing in Hooper and Bourgoult. Then it was walkons and guys who were never going to qualify, and we were down to 6 players. That never should have happened. The kids coming back this year was remarkable. Go figure Dom would thrive playing 40.  Thing is if the last 2 recruiting classes are what can be expected, he can't be brought back. If it can be figured that was just a freak happening, and coach Steve can be expected to bring in guys who can play, sure, bring him back.

desco80

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Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #150 on: March 03, 2015, 09:11:10 PM »
Desco, you deserve Coach K ....the top coach in college basketball history.  And of course, you'd still complain,but you deserve nothing less.

Really?   I don't like Lavin, so that means I could only be satisfied by the winning-est coach ever?     

He has moved the program forward.  We are better than we were under Norm.  The perception of the program and it's visibility has improved.  He made a tournament in 2010 and it looks like he might again this season.
All of these things are true.

But I truthfully don't know if that is good enough.   I also look at the state of the program and wonder if the brief success of two 1st round losses, is worth struggling for the next 2+ years.


Desco I think you are a good poster whos only problems people have with you revolves around your position on lavin. That is what it is. But you have got to stop doing what you did above. Before this season started it was "now lavin will be coming off of his 4th straight year of no NCAA", now its "Two first round exits". Guess what, the first part never happened and the second part might just as easily be a visit to the sweet 16. Ive seen you call out posters for off predictions in the past, myself included, just know that thats a title dawned by everyone.

Mase if I criticized him before for no ncaa appearances, I'm not moving the goalposts now, he's just done slightly better.
but just making the tournament was never my barometer.
Frankly no matter what he does this season I don't think he should be back.  And I've said that through both wins and losses.   no single outcome should be determinitive.
my opinion is based on watching the team for the past 5 seasons, and all that has occurred.   So, we might get hot and roll to the Sweet sixteen.  We also might get a terrible match up and be bounced in the 1st round.   Either way my view will probably only change slightly.
there's been a big sample size already

Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #151 on: March 03, 2015, 09:13:17 PM »
Desco, you deserve Coach K ....the top coach in college basketball history.  And of course, you'd still complain,but you deserve nothing less.

Really?   I don't like Lavin, so that means I could only be satisfied by the winning-est coach ever?     

He has moved the program forward.  We are better than we were under Norm.  The perception of the program and it's visibility has improved.  He made a tournament in 2010 and it looks like he might again this season.
All of these things are true.

But I truthfully don't know if that is good enough.   I also look at the state of the program and wonder if the brief success of two 1st round losses, is worth struggling for the next 2+ years.


Desco I think you are a good poster whos only problems people have with you revolves around your position on lavin. That is what it is. But you have got to stop doing what you did above. Before this season started it was "now lavin will be coming off of his 4th straight year of no NCAA", now its "Two first round exits". Guess what, the first part never happened and the second part might just as easily be a visit to the sweet 16. Ive seen you call out posters for off predictions in the past, myself included, just know that thats a title dawned by everyone.

Mase if I criticized him before for no ncaa appearances, I'm not moving the goalposts now, he's just done slightly better.
but just making the tournament was never my barometer.
Frankly no matter what he does this season I don't think he should be back.  And I've said that through both wins and losses.   no single outcome should be determinitive.
my opinion is based on watching the team for the past 5 seasons, and all that has occurred.   So, we might get hot and roll to the Sweet sixteen.  We also might get a terrible match up and be bounced in the 1st round.   Either way my view will probably only change slightly.
there's been a big sample size already

Anything Lavin can do over the next 4-5 years to change your view of him?

hnk

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Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #152 on: March 03, 2015, 09:14:43 PM »
How many times are you going to write the exact same thing?   You don't like Coach Lavin. You want a new coach.  No matter what.  You are a basketball genius. 

Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #153 on: March 03, 2015, 09:21:27 PM »
Desco, you deserve Coach K ....the top coach in college basketball history.  And of course, you'd still complain,but you deserve nothing less.

Really?   I don't like Lavin, so that means I could only be satisfied by the winning-est coach ever?     

He has moved the program forward.  We are better than we were under Norm.  The perception of the program and it's visibility has improved.  He made a tournament in 2010 and it looks like he might again this season.
All of these things are true.

But I truthfully don't know if that is good enough.   I also look at the state of the program and wonder if the brief success of two 1st round losses, is worth struggling for the next 2+ years.


Desco I think you are a good poster whos only problems people have with you revolves around your position on lavin. That is what it is. But you have got to stop doing what you did above. Before this season started it was "now lavin will be coming off of his 4th straight year of no NCAA", now its "Two first round exits". Guess what, the first part never happened and the second part might just as easily be a visit to the sweet 16. Ive seen you call out posters for off predictions in the past, myself included, just know that thats a title dawned by everyone.

Mase if I criticized him before for no ncaa appearances, I'm not moving the goalposts now, he's just done slightly better.
but just making the tournament was never my barometer.
Frankly no matter what he does this season I don't think he should be back.  And I've said that through both wins and losses.   no single outcome should be determinitive.
my opinion is based on watching the team for the past 5 seasons, and all that has occurred.   So, we might get hot and roll to the Sweet sixteen.  We also might get a terrible match up and be bounced in the 1st round.   Either way my view will probably only change slightly.
there's been a big sample size already

I believe that to be the case for the administration. Lavin has to make them want to give him a contract. Anything less than sweet 16 won't change minds.

hnk

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Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #154 on: March 03, 2015, 09:25:05 PM »
I believe you. You are all knowing.  We don't deserve you.  Not a one of us. 

Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #155 on: March 03, 2015, 09:27:18 PM »
I believe you. You are all knowing.  We don't deserve you.  Not a one of us. 

We will find out soon enough

Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #156 on: March 03, 2015, 09:35:28 PM »
Desco, you deserve Coach K ....the top coach in college basketball history.  And of course, you'd still complain,but you deserve nothing less.

Really?   I don't like Lavin, so that means I could only be satisfied by the winning-est coach ever?     

He has moved the program forward.  We are better than we were under Norm.  The perception of the program and it's visibility has improved.  He made a tournament in 2010 and it looks like he might again this season.
All of these things are true.

But I truthfully don't know if that is good enough.   I also look at the state of the program and wonder if the brief success of two 1st round losses, is worth struggling for the next 2+ years.


Desco I think you are a good poster whos only problems people have with you revolves around your position on lavin. That is what it is. But you have got to stop doing what you did above. Before this season started it was "now lavin will be coming off of his 4th straight year of no NCAA", now its "Two first round exits". Guess what, the first part never happened and the second part might just as easily be a visit to the sweet 16. Ive seen you call out posters for off predictions in the past, myself included, just know that thats a title dawned by everyone.

Mase if I criticized him before for no ncaa appearances, I'm not moving the goalposts now, he's just done slightly better.
but just making the tournament was never my barometer.
Frankly no matter what he does this season I don't think he should be back.  And I've said that through both wins and losses.   no single outcome should be determinitive.
my opinion is based on watching the team for the past 5 seasons, and all that has occurred.   So, we might get hot and roll to the Sweet sixteen.  We also might get a terrible match up and be bounced in the 1st round.   Either way my view will probably only change slightly.
there's been a big sample size already

I believe that to be the case for the administration. Lavin has to make them want to give him a contract. Anything less than sweet 16 won't change minds.
:2funny:

Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #157 on: March 03, 2015, 09:37:43 PM »
No inside info by any stretch, but a few people who claim to be "in the know" have told me that Jordan (along with Obekpa) is expected to be back.  Obviously a lot of time and things to play before that happens.

Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #158 on: March 03, 2015, 09:48:15 PM »
No inside info by any stretch, but a few people who claim to be "in the know" have told me that Jordan (along with Obekpa) is expected to be back.  Obviously a lot of time and things to play before that happens.

So is it inside info or not ;)
*wipes ketchup from his eyes* - I guess Heinz sight isn’t 20/20.

Re: Does Lavin deserve an extension
« Reply #159 on: March 04, 2015, 02:06:30 PM »
No inside info by any stretch, but a few people who claim to be "in the know" have told me that Jordan (along with Obekpa) is expected to be back.  Obviously a lot of time and things to play before that happens.
 

I don't think these guys feel they have to go like Jakarr due to age concerns.  Only if they want to be undrafted and roll the dice.  Both guys can step way up into the '16 draft - I think this would let the staff work hard on finishing a really good '16 class. I would like to see a couple more players for '15 To start balancing this roster out