6th Man of St. John's Basketball
St. John's Red Storm => In The Jungle... => Topic started by: QuanMan on December 24, 2019, 04:08:32 PM
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Easily one of the most pivotal games of the past ten years. Protect home court and (3) Top 25 wins are on the resume. Butler is last in the conference in steals and rebounds, they play at a slow pace and rarely turn the ball over. They can shoot it and are well coached. Let's start up the discussion, win this and we are sitting very pretty for the time being.
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Easily one of the most pivotal games of the past ten years. Protect home court and (3) Top 25 wins are on the resume. Butler is last in the conference in steals and rebounds, they play at a slow pace and rarely turn the ball over. They can shoot it and are well coached. Let's start up the discussion, win this and we are sitting very pretty for the time being.
They will not be allowed to play slow as we take them out of their comfort zone.
Our pressure will lead to tight game with winning a strong possibility.
I’ve been extremely impressed by how the team hustles to get the ball in and over the line after made baskets. Wreaks havoc on the opposition
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Easily one of the most pivotal games of the past ten years. Protect home court and (3) Top 25 wins are on the resume. Butler is last in the conference in steals and rebounds, they play at a slow pace and rarely turn the ball over. They can shoot it and are well coached. Let's start up the discussion, win this and we are sitting very pretty for the time being.
We can make an early statement with a win here. Defending home court is also important. Should be fun.
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They may have rarely turned the ball over until now but our quick hands and pressure will change that. Butler has to attack the pressure. If they pull it out and slow it down it will benefit us as our defense has been great. See shot clock problems for them.
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I think it comes down to their offense against our defense. I think we can win, as we all should.
Trying to be cautious with my optimism, but it’s telling that after losing Heron the team needed someone to step up and that someone was everyone. Every single player has stepped up since Heron’s injury.
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Easily one of the most pivotal games of the past ten years. Protect home court and (3) Top 25 wins are on the resume. Butler is last in the conference in steals and rebounds, they play at a slow pace and rarely turn the ball over. They can shoot it and are well coached. Let's start up the discussion, win this and we are sitting very pretty for the time being.
They were picked to finish 8th in the league. Clearly it’s a rebuilding year for them according to the logic of one of our most prolific posters.
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They were picked to finish 8th in the league. Clearly it’s a rebuilding year for them according to the logic of one of our most prolific posters.
It’s more to it than that obviously. New coaches, new systems, no pg on the roster, etc.
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It’s more to it than that obviously. New coaches, new systems, no pg on the roster, etc.
The carmine nickname is stupid and we all should not encourage him by discussing it further. Let’s talk hoops and not engage in ridiculous arguments. Anyone with any hoop knowledge can see the team is playing much better. JYD (junk yard dog) would be more appropriate.
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Looking forward to this one. It will be a tough game. I think expecting a win is getting ahead of ourselves
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I think we'll be about 5 point dogs in this one.
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I think we'll be about 5 point dogs in this one.
Seems high. That means we would be 8/9 at butler?
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Seems high. That means we would be 8/9 at butler?
Closer to 10 but yeah
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Closer to 10 but yeah
You have been right. But that seems really high.
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The carmine nickname is stupid and we all should not encourage him by discussing it further.
As much as I would like to take credit for it, alas I can't. It's Doc's creation. All I did is alter it slightly from "CTC" to "CFC".
Michael wrote this on the closed thread; "Coach 20/52 was never disrespected like Coach Anderson." He must have been asleep the last 4 years and 10,000 posts.
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As much as I would like to take credit for it, alas I can't. It's Doc's creation. All I did is alter it slightly from "CTC" to "CFC".
Michael wrote this on the closed thread; "Coach 20/52 was never disrespected like Coach Anderson." He must have been asleep the last 4 years and 10,000 posts.
What are you taking credit for? Sorry you and your ilk are so butt hurt. Keep this crusade up. I may the only one but I find it hilarious. You guys have been on this board since it’s existence. We finally have a great coach who seems to be doing everything right. We have a real AD who is really trying. And you Guys take shots at him and the program every chance you get. Keep counting empty seats. Keep predicting losses. Keep everything up in general. I love discussing coach lazy ass 20-59. That shit is never boring.
PS-2 weeks ago- the New Year’s Eve game barely sold 2500 tickets. That’s not true any more
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What are you taking credit for? Sorry you and your ilk are so butt hurt. Keep this crusade up. I may the only one but I find it hilarious. You guys have been on this board since it’s existence. We finally have a great coach who seems to be doing everything right. We have a real AD who is really trying. And you Guys take shots at him and the program every chance you get. Keep counting empty seats. Keep predicting losses. Keep everything up in general. I love discussing coach lazy ass 20-59. That shit is never boring.
PS-2 weeks ago- the New Year’s Eve game barely sold 2500 tickets. That’s not true any more
Let's squash the false narrative you believe once and for all that CFC is your coach and Coach Mullin is my coach.
CFC is my coach. Chris Mullin was my coach. Steve Lavin was my coach. Norm Roberts was my coach. Mike Jarvis was my coach. Fran Frischilla was my coach. Brian Mahoney was my coach and Lou Carnesecca was my coach.
In fact, the Razorback is more my coach than he's your coach because a true Johnny fan would never have a disparaging word to say about the legend. Period!
Here's your quote:
"And you Guys take shots at him and the program every chance you get." I don't know who these "you Guys" are you're lumping me in with but I've never taken a single shot at him since the day he was hired. Calling him the very benign, innocent "CFC" is no shot. In fact, I've been nothing short of complimentary towards him. You just having been paying attention I guess.
disclaimer: I have in fact taken shots at the program from time to time. How could you not? For
We are...St. Johns.
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Let's squash the false narrative you believe once and for all that CFC is your coach and Coach Mullin is my coach.
CFC is my coach. Chris Mullin was my coach. Steve Lavin was my coach. Norm Roberts was my coach. Mike Jarvis was my coach. Fran Frischilla was my coach. Brian Mahoney was my coach and Lou Carnesecca was my coach.
In fact, the Razorback is more my coach than he's your coach because a true Johnny fan would never have a disparaging word to say about the legend. Period!
Here's your quote:
"And you Guys take shots at him and the program every chance you get." I don't know who these "you Guys" are you're lumping me in with but I've never taken a single shot at him since the day he was hired. Calling him the very benign, innocent "CFC" is no shot. In fact, I've been nothing short of complimentary towards him. You just having been paying attention I guess.
disclaimer: I have in fact taken shots at the program from time to time. How could you not? For
We are...St. Johns.
All coaches sometimes deserve the criticism that they get. If they do something that i feel warrants criticism, I will give it to them regardless of who they may be. Once Mullin became the coach I looked past his accomplishments as a player and was forced to judge him through a different lens, the actual success of the team and him as a coach.
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Let's squash the false narrative you believe once and for all that CFC is your coach and Coach Mullin is my coach.
CFC is my coach. Chris Mullin was my coach. Steve Lavin was my coach. Norm Roberts was my coach. Mike Jarvis was my coach. Fran Frischilla was my coach. Brian Mahoney was my coach and Lou Carnesecca was my coach.
In fact, the Razorback is more my coach than he's your coach because a true Johnny fan would never have a disparaging word to say about the legend. Period!
Here's your quote:
"And you Guys take shots at him and the program every chance you get." I don't know who these "you Guys" are you're lumping me in with but I've never taken a single shot at him since the day he was hired. Calling him the very benign, innocent "CFC" is no shot. In fact, I've been nothing short of complimentary towards him. You just having been paying attention I guess.
disclaimer: I have in fact taken shots at the program from time to time. How could you not? For
We are...St. Johns.
So you are not butt hurt? And happy that we FINALLY have a real coach? I assume the curse is over and you are confident that we are on the right track to to win games and have success?
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I was totally wrong about the Arizona game for Mike but I have a feeling the feel good is going to come to an end..Butler trounced Mike two years ago in the NCAA tourney which pretty much led to his firing at Arkansas. Will he make changes this time around? We’ll see!!
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My concern would be the advanced scouting for league play. If we don’t turn the other team over we may struggle to score in the half court. Time for Heron to play up to his pre-season billing. If we can get consistent play out of Heron and LJ, we may surprise this year.
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Guys....Carmine has made up nicknames since the beginning of time. Half the time it takes me a while to figure out who he's even talking about but that's his thing. It's the thing that makes this place special that we have all these quirks from so many posters.
If you want to debate whether it's a dumb nickname or the best nickname then make a thread and keep that discussion there. This thread is about the St. John's vs Butler.
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We're 2-0 against top 25 teams when I pick against us so let's keep it going.
I think we play Butler tough as Anderson's identity has clearly taken hold with this team. Very active defense and crashing the glass are our staples now. However I think Butler is really good this year. We give them a good game but come up short in the end. Heron needs to get his head out of his ass.
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My concern would be the advanced scouting for league play. If we don’t turn the other team over we may struggle to score in the half court. Time for Heron to play up to his pre-season billing. If we can get consistent play out of Heron and LJ, we may surprise this year.
We are going to have turn them over and get some easy baskets. This is what we do. If butler or anyone else handles the pressure we lose. Arizona was prepared for it just like the rest of the conference will be. The finesse big east will not like playing us.
I am also hoping heron can play and score some points.
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I think we will not turn butler over as much as we did wv and Arizona. If so, we’ll need to score in some other ways because there will not be as many fast break points. I think the most likely source of points is heron and lj managing to shoot 40+% from 3; if they do that we’ll be right in this one
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We are 18th in tempo and Butler is 331st. Pretty huge contrast there. We are going to need to find a way to speed them up and make it an up and down game which they are not used to.
Thompson has been their best player of late which is pretty crazy for a 6-2 guy who can't shoot in today's game. He was pretty bad the last 3 times he's played us because we essentially didn't guard him 15 feet out. We'll see how we choose to defend him this time around.
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We will speed them up in the first half, and if we follow the same pattern as with Arizona in the first half and get up double digits, we will hang on for dear life and win despite Butler's half time adjustments ...
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68-38 Butler
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68-38 Butler
67-36 Butler
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I was totally wrong about the Arizona game for Mike but I have a feeling the feel good is going to come to an end..Butler trounced Mike two years ago in the NCAA tourney which pretty much led to his firing at Arkansas. Will he make changes this time around? We’ll see!!
[/quoteI was totally wrong about the Arizona game for Mike but I have a feeling the feel good is going to come to an end..Butler trounced Mike two years ago in the NCAA tourney which pretty much led to his firing at Arkansas. Will he make changes this time around? We’ll see!!
Why would there even be a remote connection?
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Johnnies 82
Bulldogs 78
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City - 68
Country - 67
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Bulldogs 71
Johnnies 78
Don't let Tucker go off!
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I think we'll be about 5 point dogs in this one.
Does that reflect Heron not playing. Has a time table been released?
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Does that reflect Heron not playing. Has a time table been released?
Heron is practicing
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Butler now at #11 nationally in today's AP poll.
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I think we'll be about 5 point dogs in this one.
Butler -5.5
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Arkansas played Bulter a couple years ago, Butler had little problems with Anderson's defense in that game. Different teams but I assume Bulter has same coach.
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Butler fans on their forum are pretty certain they won’t turn the ball over and figure they should win pretty easy and St Johns won’t score 70, even one player calls Anderson a racist POS. Should be some good motivation to get that dub.
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Arkansas played Bulter a couple years ago, Butler had little problems with Anderson's defense in that game. Different teams but I assume Bulter has same coach.
These soft big East teams are not going to like playing us.
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Butler fans on their forum are pretty certain they won’t turn the ball over and figure they should win pretty easy and St Johns won’t score 70, even one player calls Anderson a racist POS. Should be some good motivation to get that dub.
By player I assume you mean poster otherwise you have quite a scoop.
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By player I assume you mean poster otherwise you have quite a scoop.
yeah whoops haha
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Just win baby!
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A win here would be a beautiful beginning to the new year and conference play. :smiley6600:
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https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1211984345524789248
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Brutal defensive possession from LJ there. Left shooter Baldwin to guard non shooter Thompson then got caught cherry picking which gave Baldwin a second wide open 3 after the offensive rebound.
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Too many wasted O possessions and outside shots. Get the ball inside and convert.
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Nice take and offensive board by Earlington.
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Ok start. Great defensive intensity by both teams. Gonna be a good one
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Dunn going to the line to tie in a game that feels like we should be down 6 or so points. Solid Butler D really exposing the offensive limitations our peripheral guys have.
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Do any of our guys ever practice shooting the basketball. Great effort but can't hit an outside shot at all.
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This is what I was concerned about with Earlington. Not playing his role. He can't shoot. Opponents will gladly give him jumpers all game. He needs to live in the paint and not drift 10-18 feet out.
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Earlington everywhere. Too bad he can’t shoot. Shot way too flat
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Butler D providing the blueprint for how we will be guarded all season. Just sag off everybody, go under screens and beg us to shoot jumpers.
Teams that don't turn it over and control tempo will crush us.
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LJ isn’t an alpha. He needs to play off others.
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Bring back mullin :buck2: :)
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Butler D providing the blueprint for how we will be guarded all season. Just sag off everybody, go under screens and beg us to shoot jumpers.
Teams that don't turn it over and control tempo will crush us.
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I generally agree. With Heron out and LJ in trouble offense is shaky.
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Our first 6 field goals were all drives to the hoop. Can't hit an outside shot to save our lives. Keep attacking the rim and pray for a miracle comeback.
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This is what happens when your only two players that have played meaningful minutes in the Big East are taken out of the game.
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This beatdown is good for this team. They need to know where they stand.
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And im still waiting for Williams for his breakout game
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Let’s see what halftime adjustments CMA makes because so far, Butler has game planned for us perfectly.
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Just checked stats. Butler up 2-1 on the boards and we’re getting killed on assists. Horrible.
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Let’s see what halftime adjustments CMA makes because so far, Butler has game planned for us perfectly.
Best half time adjustment he could make would be to hop into his car and go celebrate New Year's Eve with his wife.
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LJ doesnt want to be out there. He was begging for his 4th foul.
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I like the team isn't hanging its head. They still are trying, look engaged.
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Rutherford giving some quality minutes again.
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LJ doesnt want to be out there. He was begging for his 4th foul.
That’s what I was thinking. Interesting Steere hasn’t got into the game.
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We should drive to the basket every posession no jump shots
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Gotta luv the effort by Rutherford. That’s the mentality CMA is looking for.
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BS call on Dunn. Great defensive pressure. That's a foul on Butler if anything.
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This is what you love about CMA's style. Team using great defensive intensity to get back in the game. Love the fight.
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This is what you love about CMA's style. Team using great defensive intensity to get back in the game. Love the fight.
All you can ask for is this kind of effort every night. They are not an offensively skilled group so when shots don't fall they need to play like they have in second half. Really hope one day Anderson gets a team full of horses as it would be so much fun to watch!
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That’s what I was thinking. Interesting Steere hasn’t got into the game.
Weird that Steere is not getting in. Nice run. Defense now performing like I expected
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Gotta love Rutherford's heart and intensity.
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BS call on Dunn. Great defensive pressure. That's a foul on Butler if anything.
Not the reason they are down, but contact being called very differently on both ends of court. Style and aggressiveness is part of it, but not all of it.
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Apparently coach can motivate
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All you can ask for is this kind of effort every night. They are not an offensively skilled group so when shots don't fall they need to play like they have in second half. Really hope one day Anderson gets a team full of horses as it would be so much fun to watch!
Indeed
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How can anyone not appreciate this effort?
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Greg Williams! Let's go!
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So proud of this team....
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Incredible D. How about this shit
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This is an amazing half!!!!!!!!!
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Incredibly entertaining.
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Team seems to play more cohesive without ball dominant Figueroa and Heron.
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Rutherford is everywhere!
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The Duke! Johnnies take the lead after being down 23.
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If we pull this out I expect a lot of people to eat crow on Mike Anderson.
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I have to admit that I tuned out at halftime. Very exciting.
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Needed to see fog earlier
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Does St Johns have another miracle in them?
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Horrible last possession. Still a great come back.
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Fun game... great effort, would have liked Fig coming back in the under 4 TO. Still few bounces from a huge comeback.
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Amazing comeback to make it a close game after being down 23. Would have liked to seen the ball in Rutherford's hands at the end there.
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What a game! We did this without our top two scores. I am still encouraged and looking forward to see how season plays out. Should be fun! All BE Teams are flawed.
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Best half in years. Very positive game. Second unit phenomenal. Dunn gives, Dunn takes away.
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Just goes to show when your foundation is built on defense and toughness you can always compete. At the end of the day it’s about getting the W’s but I’m excited about the potential.
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Best half time adjustment he could make would be to hop into his car and go celebrate New Year's Eve with his wife.
Apparently, it was a hell of a half time adjustment. Fun game. We will be competitive.
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There goes the perfect in league season.
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Apparently, it was a hell of a half time adjustment. Fun game. We will be competitive.
I don't think there were any adjustments to make. Butler couldn't miss in the first half, and we couldn't make anything. Once we made a couple shots, even if they were just layups and free throws, we could set up the press. Hard to press, when you can't make a shot.
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Apparently, it was a hell of a half time adjustment. Fun game. We will be competitive.
I meant he should have THREATENED to hop in his car and go celebrate NYE. LOL
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I’m a St. John’s grad class of (93)and loved being in the building tonight...
I really wanted us to win and I agree, would have liked to see figs and Roberts put in at the 4 minute timeout..guess’s Anderson wanted to stay with what got him there, and I understand that...we are an exciting team and coach Anderson indeed can motivate...99/100 teams would have folded tonight...let’s enjoy this and move forward and get better....
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Game showed coach has developed a great second unit which will develop into 40 minutes of ball busting hoop. 0 points from the two stars and, if not for a bad finish, this would have been a signature win. I’m hoping Duke gets more time. He was everywhere tonight
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How can anyone not appreciate this effort?
How can anyone appreciate this effort in 'This beatdown that is good for this team. That is showing them where they stand.'
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So proud of this team....
How can you be proud of this team in the midst of 'This beatdown that is good for this team. That is showing them where they stand.'?
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The team gave a good accounting of itself tonight. I saw a cat get CPR and then die during the game while waiting for a flight at the Westchester Airport. I was going to help out until I realized it wasn’t a dog.
Anderson seems to do better without stars. Something to keep an eye on. Williams has our together a long string of good games. Him and Dunn on the floor together is menacing from athletic and defensive standpoints.
Rutherford was very good once again.
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I agree that Williams had another good game and probably his best game so far, and perhaps was the player of the game for SJU. I think you are right that he seems to have made the shift from thinking to just wanting to play his game. I think a second unit of Dunn, Williams, Earlington, Rutherford and Sears is going to give all BE teams nightmares this year. What i am noticing about a strong second unit coaching strategy (perhaps this is part of the 40 minutes of hell) is that the opposing team cannot keep up with the intensity of constant pressure, and just wears down and either cannot keep the lead or are too worn to make a full comeback. There was also a clear conditioning difference between the two teams. (Maybe that is also why Steere is not playing).
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Another encouraging thing for me as a fan and from a pure entertainment factor is that Butler was the one team in the big east that I thought would handle our pressure....and I’m telling you, I was there, for about 13 minutes in second half Butler could not make a pass without being under duress...should be a fun to watch season. Just hoping for 9 BE wins!!
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Very proud and still very disappointed. Greg Williams with confidence is a great thing. Changes our team completely and is a guy who can get into the paint.
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How can you be proud of this team in the midst of 'This beatdown that is good for this team. That is showing them where they stand.'?
Yes the 1st half beatdown showed where they stood. They needed that to light a fire in their ass for poor ass play! Appreciating the effort and being proud of this team has nothing to do with what they needed to turn it around.
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There are positives and negatives to take away from this game.
We had no business being in the game late in the 2nd but we needed to close that out for a W.
We're going to have to find a way to generate half court offense. Teams are going to figure out quick that the recipe for beating us is simply don't turn the ball over.
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There are positives and negatives to take away from this game.
We had no business being in the game late in the 2nd but we needed to close that out for a W.
We're going to have to find a way to generate half court offense. Teams are going to figure out quick that the recipe for beating us is simply don't turn the ball over.
Given last nights game it will not be simple. Butler is one of the top teams. They walk it up and play slowly which normally leads to fewerTOs. 24 turnovers last night shows me that we will turnover everyone. Agree half court offense needs a lot of work
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The guys that made the comeback were incredible. Those guys aren’t going to win to many games in the half court. Maybe coach should have went to LJ a little earlier.
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I don't expect the half court offense to ever be great but it needs to be better. This is the biggest area where this staff needs to improve. There's just not a whole lot going aside from just swinging it side to side and exchanging. There's not enough playmakers on this team for that to work.
During the Butler run in the 1st half there was a stretch where on 4 straight possessions the shots were: Dunn long 3, Earlington 3, Dunn long 3, Earlington long 2. That can't happen. Shot selection got better in the 2nd half when we started turning them over more but that should have been corrected by this point in the season.
I still worry that certain guys aren't quite understanding their roles and are trying to do too much. Earlington should never be shooting jumpers at this stage and Sears shouldn't be dribbling.
All that said, it was pretty amazing this team showed the fight to come back from that big of a deficit especially with that lineup on the floor. I still don't see us as an NCAA Tournament team but we will be fun to watch all season and will know that the effort is there night and night out.
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Given last nights game it will not be simple. Butler is one of the top teams. They walk it up and play slowly which normally leads to fewerTOs. 24 turnovers last night shows me that we will turnover everyone. Agree half court offense needs a lot of work
I think Butler got complacent and started turning the ball over. Up 20+ can lead to lackadaisical ball handling.
While I like Butler they were still picked 8th preseason. A healthy Heron obviously changes are team dramatically but I'm worried about Big East play. Still early and we are in drivers seat for tourney berth.
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Anderson's imprint was all over the court last night.
Do we struggle in the half court? Sure. However we make up for it with relentless pressure D that causes havoc for teams and forces turnovers.
Sure there will be a few games where teams don't turn it over and we'll probably be in trouble unless our outside shooting and overall fg pctg dramatically improves.
Also for those questioning LJ not getting put back in earlier last night, it could've easily worked against us as the offense could've stagnated with him trying to hold on to the ball too long.
The entire team deserves a ton of credit for turning a 23 point deficit into a 5 point lead. It sucks that we didn't close them out. That kid David's only points of the game and they proved to be the dagger. Just the way it works sometimes.
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There are positives and negatives to take away from this game.
We had no business being in the game late in the 2nd but we needed to close that out for a W.
We're going to have to find a way to generate half court offense. Teams are going to figure out quick that the recipe for beating us is simply don't turn the ball over.
Heron has to be the one to create in the half court. He's the guy who can take people off the dribble, or pull up for a jumper.
Hopefully when he returns he looks more comfortable on the court.
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Anderson's imprint was all over the court last night.
Do we struggle in the half court? Sure. However we make up for it with relentless pressure D that causes havoc for teams and forces turnovers.
Sure there will be a few games where teams don't turn it over and we'll probably be in trouble unless our outside shooting and overall fg pctg dramatically improves.
Also for those questioning LJ not getting put back in earlier last night, it could've easily worked against us as the offense could've stagnated with him trying to hold on to the ball too long.
The entire team deserves a ton of credit for turning a 23 point deficit into a 5 point lead. It sucks that we didn't close them out. That kid David's only points of the game and they proved to be the dagger. Just the way it works sometimes.
I mentioned LJ. This team plays incredibly hard. But their isn’t much talent. Coach only has a few bullets. Anderson coached a great game. I am not suggesting after the fact that LJ should have come in. At the same time he was our best scorer. Tough sitting him in crunch time.
Half court offense will improve with better talent.
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Heron has to be the one to create in the half court. He's the guy who can take people off the dribble, or pull up for a jumper.
Hopefully when he returns he looks more comfortable on the court.
Yeah, Heron and Dunn are really the only good 1-on-1 players on this team. Rutherford has gotten better at it the last two games, but no one else is really a penetrator on this team. Expect a lot of perimeter passing when those two guys (and maybe Rutherford) don't have the ball.
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I mentioned LJ. This team plays incredibly hard. But their isn’t much talent. Coach only has a few bullets. Anderson coached a great game. I am not suggesting after the fact that LJ should have come in. At the same time he was our best scorer. Tough sitting him in crunch time.
Half court offense will improve with better talent.
Agree. When we start getting more alphas, it will improve. Greg Williams is a big wild card. The kid's got it but just needs to bring it out every game.
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While I like Butler they were still picked 8th preseason.
I'm confused as to how this statement has any relevance whatsoever on January 1st.
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I think Butler got complacent and started turning the ball over. Up 20+ can lead to lackadaisical ball handling.
While I like Butler they were still picked 8th preseason. A healthy Heron obviously changes are team dramatically but I'm worried about Big East play. Still early and we are in drivers seat for tourney berth.
We may be in the driver's seat for a tourney birth but the key ain't in the ignition. LOL Love Anderson and the team so far but BE play will determine a berth and that still remains to be seen. As you said Butler while off to a great start was picked 8th and outside of Baldwin i don't see too much talent on that team either so a loss at home may not be a good indication of things to come though I remain cautiously optimistic.
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I'm confused as to how this statement has any relevance whatsoever on January 1st.
What is confusing about it? St. John's and Butler were projected to be bottom tier teams in the Big East.
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Game showed coach has developed a great second unit which will develop into 40 minutes of ball busting hoop. 0 points from the two stars and, if not for a bad finish, this would have been a signature win. I’m hoping Duke gets more time. He was everywhere tonight
That is a positive. I do think Anderson has done a nice job of raising the floor but on flip side I don't think he's increased the ceiling.
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Watchng the gane last night was very similar to many games Anderson coached in at Arkansas, including the finish. I was hoping the johnnies could finish the deal but to many bad decisions down the stretch, still in tourney conversation however.
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What is confusing about it? St. John's and Butler were projected to be bottom tier teams in the Big East.
I'm confused as to how their preseason projections are at all relevant at this point, because they aren't.
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Watchng the gane last night was very similar to many games Anderson coached in at Arkansas, including the finish. I was hoping the johnnies could finish the deal but to many bad decisions down the stretch, still in tourney conversation however.
and not even close to supposed to be in the tourney conversation losing 70 % of your scoring and only two guys coming back that have played any regular minutes. I don’t think a 23-2 run against a top 10 team is typical of What Anderson does, great coaching night without your two best players and your supposedly stud big man not even in the rotation yet. Any negative talk about last night is crazy talk, Dunn was about to get a foul drawn but somehow lost the ball.
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Yes the 1st half beatdown showed where they stood. They needed that to light a fire in their ass for poor ass play! Appreciating the effort and being proud of this team has nothing to do with what they needed to turn it around.
Nice try. As we all know, you included, there is no such thing as a 1st half beatdown and certainly you didn't write 1st half. There is only falling behind by a lot in the first half. A beatdown refers to the outcome of a game. And a team certainly gets a full game to make it not a beatdown.
You prematurely ejaculated and were made to eat your words about an hour later. It's my favorite thing about reading the game threads. You see it all the time and I find it hilarious. Try hot sauce. It makes them taste better.
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I'm confused as to how their preseason projections are at all relevant at this point,
Please allow me to allay your confusion.
The BE teams have each played only 1 game out of an 18 game regular season schedule. We're about 5% into conference play and only about 40% into the whole thing. Since we're just getting started and pre-conference play is not much of an indicator, see last year's St. John's team, of how things will end up - people still appropriately talk about pre-season projections.
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We're going to have to find a way to generate half court offense.
There was an interesting sequence during the game deciding 3+ minute scoring drought at the end.
Butler coach switched to a 1-3-1 and we looked like a deer in the headlights. We didn't score. Next time down, same defense same deer look, so CFC smartly calls a timeout which I'm sure he spent trying to teach us what a 1-3-1 is. Of course out of the timeout Butler went back to man to man and the dooming scoreless steak continued unabated.
Dunn made a big mistake pulling the ball out on his own volition last possesion with precious seconds ticking away. Hopefully that won't happen again.
Heartbreaking loss. We really needed that one. 2nd year in a row we start conference play in cruel fashion. Granted last year was crueler as we wuz robbed. Oh what could have been.
Being a fan of this program is downright brutal.
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I think Butler got complacent and started turning the ball over. Up 20+ can lead to lackadaisical ball handling.
While I like Butler they were still picked 8th preseason. A healthy Heron obviously changes are team dramatically but I'm worried about Big East play. Still early and we are in drivers seat for tourney berth.
I don’t see how anyone can say this team is in the driver’s seat for a tournament berth. Last place seems the most likely finish. You have to win your home games in this conference...especially in a game of contrasting styles where you have to dictate tempo. That becomes exponentially more difficult in someone else’s arena. We will almost certainly be swept by at least Butler now.
Some of you get so offended by tr last place talk, but who are we definitely better than? Who can we score against in the half court with four minutes remaining?
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Please allow me to allay your confusion.
The BE teams have each played only 1 game out of an 18 game regular season schedule. We're about 5% into conference play and only about 40% into the whole thing. Since we're just getting started and pre-conference play is not much of an indicator, see last year's St. John's team, of how things will end up - people still appropriately talk about pre-season projections.
The problem is that two months of non conference play is way more of an indicator than people blindly guessing how teams will finish before they’ve played a game against anybody. Butler’s 8th place projection is obsolete considering that they are a top 10 team in the country right now by pretty much every metrics site that exists
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Box score listed attendance of 3816 yet the place looked packed. What gives?
Michael Stephens again. Ya think they could take him off our conference opener crew next season?
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The problem is that two months of non conference play is way more of an indicator than people blindly guessing how teams will finish before they’ve played a game against anybody. Butler’s 8th place projection is obsolete considering that they are a top 10 team in the country right now by pretty much every metrics site that exists
I agree that non-conference play is more of an indicator than pre-season projections. I'll take it a step further. I don't think the projections mean much of anything at all. But it's not irrelevant for posters to point to them 1 game into an 18 game season.
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I don’t see how anyone can say this team is in the driver’s seat for a tournament berth. Last place seems the most likely finish. You have to win your home games in this conference...especially in a game of contrasting styles where you have to dictate tempo. That becomes exponentially more difficult in someone else’s arena. We will almost certainly be swept by at least Butler now.
Some of you get so offended by tr last place talk, but who are we definitely better than? Who can we score against in the half court with four minutes remaining?
A week ago you said you hadn’t seen zona or WVU play in a decade, but we can assume you know all 9 BE teams front and back?
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I'm confused as to how their preseason projections are at all relevant at this point, because they aren't.
Sure it is. Conference play just started.
It's not promising that we couldn't win at home against a team that was considered by the coaches to be one of the worst in the conference. As everyone knows the game isn't played on paper but conference play is going to be very tough.
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Some of you get so offended by tr last place talk, but who are we definitely better than? Who can we score against in the half court with four minutes remaining?
Which is exactly why I say we’re in rebuilding mode. The goal is to compete for championships, our roster is flawed. If we cant compete for a championship with the current makeup of the roster that sounds like we’re in rebuilding mode to me.
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Please allow me to allay your confusion.
The BE teams have each played only 1 game out of an 18 game regular season schedule. We're about 5% into conference play and only about 40% into the whole thing. Since we're just getting started and pre-conference play is not much of an indicator, see last year's St. John's team, of how things will end up - people still appropriately talk about pre-season projections.
Thank you. Exactly.
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I don’t see how anyone can say this team is in the driver’s seat for a tournament berth. Last place seems the most likely finish. You have to win your home games in this conference...especially in a game of contrasting styles where you have to dictate tempo. That becomes exponentially more difficult in someone else’s arena. We will almost certainly be swept by at least Butler now.
Some of you get so offended by tr last place talk, but who are we definitely better than? Who can we score against in the half court with four minutes remaining?
I'm not saying I think that they are going to be great in conference or make the tourney but the fact is at this point in the season they control their own destiny.
If they finish top half of conference they are in.
You can wipe out this loss with a win at Butler. Its not probable but not impossible.
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Which is exactly why I say we’re in rebuilding mode. The goal is to compete for championships, our roster is flawed. If we cant compete for a championship with the current makeup of the roster that sounds like we’re in rebuilding mode to me.
How are we in rebuilding mode? We're coming off NCAA Tournament appearance with 2 upperclassmen who are All Big East players.
We don't have a perfect roster but no one does.
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Sure it is. Conference play just started.
It's not promising that we couldn't win at home against a team that was considered by the coaches to be one of the worst in the conference. As everyone knows the game isn't played on paper but conference play is going to be very tough.
"Conference play just started" but those projections were made 3 months ago before anybody had even played a single game. If those projections had to be made again right now where do you think Butler is projected to finish? If you think it would be anything other than 1st or 2nd you'd be wrong. So yes, those projections from 3 months ago are completely and utterly irrelevant right now. Butler is a top 10 team in the country on every single metrics site which carries 10000x more weight than outdated human projections.
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We were playing a Butler team that is currently ranked #11 in the country, not the Butler team preseason picked 8th in conference. Their current ranking takes precedence over their preseason ranking when they hadn't played a game yet.
One could easily argue that it was a very encouraging effort against a team with the #4 NET nationally.
It was a shame we couldn't hang on in the end but I wouldn't consider last night a sign of bad things to come. To me it was nothing more or less than a great effort to come back that fell short.
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Nice try. As we all know, you included, there is no such thing as a 1st half beatdown and certainly you didn't write 1st half. There is only falling behind by a lot in the first half. A beatdown refers to the outcome of a game. And a team certainly gets a full game to make it not a beatdown.
You prematurely ejaculated and were made to eat your words about an hour later. It's my favorite thing about reading the game threads. You see it all the time and I find it hilarious. Try hot sauce. It makes them taste better.
What we cant make analysis and change how we feel about a team until the outcome of the game? Bitch please...did i ever root for our team to lose? Dont need to reference 1st half to make my point. Whats wrong with premature ejactulation? As long as you can still go for round 2, who cares?
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I'm not saying I think that they are going to be great in conference or make the tourney but the fact is at this point in the season they control their own destiny.
If they finish top half of conference they are in.
You can wipe out this loss with a win at Butler. Its not probable but not impossible.
Every team in the country controls their own destiny at this point in the season.
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We were playing a Butler team that is currently ranked #11 in the country, not the Butler team preseason picked 8th in conference. Their current ranking takes precedence over their preseason ranking when they hadn't played a game yet.
One could easily argue that it was a very encouraging effort against a team with the #4 NET nationally.
It was a shame we couldn't hang on in the end but I wouldn't consider last night a sign of bad things to come. To me it was nothing more or less than a great effort to come back that fell short.
Big East preseason predictions are based on conference play only. The season is 1 game old.
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Every team in the country controls their own destiny at this point in the season.
Sure to a degree but the point is that St. John's won against arguably their best two ooc opponents. Those are great resume builders and our battle isn't as uphill as it was last season.
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Big East preseason predictions are based on conference play only. The season is 1 game old.
If they redid those predictions last week right before conference play started where do you think Butler would have been predicted to finish?
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Big East preseason predictions are based on conference play only. The season is 1 game old.
Entire body of work. Pre-conference play does matter especially when you have several quality wins on your resume. I'm basing my opinion of Butler on their entire season, conference and non-conference play.
The fact that they were picked #8 in the BE preseason in October means little when evaluating them versus what they've actually done on the court to earn their #11 national ranking and #4 NET ranking.
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We were playing a Butler team that is currently ranked #11 in the country, not the Butler team preseason picked 8th in conference.
This is why you can’t be taken seriously. You consistently post that this is a rebuilding year (while simultaneously predicting a spot
on the bubble) because we were picked to finish 9th, but you absolutely refuse to apply that same logic to any other team in the league, including Butler who was picked to finish 8th just a few points ahead of us, Creighton picked for 7th or DePaul who was picked to finish behind us in last.
Butler is not the 11th best team in the country...not by a long shot. There is no chance they are ranked that high at the end of the season.
In-season rankings are not predictions. They are a reflection of what a team has achieved to date.
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"Conference play just started" but those projections were made 3 months ago before anybody had even played a single game. If those projections had to be made again right now where do you think Butler is projected to finish? If you think it would be anything other than 1st or 2nd you'd be wrong. So yes, those projections from 3 months ago are completely and utterly irrelevant right now. Butler is a top 10 team in the country on every single metrics site which carries 10000x more weight than outdated human projections.
So you're trying to compare rankings with projections. They are two different things.
Butler was projected to finish 8th in conference. A conference that might get 7 teams in the NCAA Tournament. The Big East is a monster which is the point I'm trying to raise.
If we can't beat Butler at home then we are going to have a tough time beating anyone. Not to say we can't, we won't, but it's not promising sign.
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This is why you can’t be taken seriously. You consistently post that this is a rebuilding year (while simultaneously predicting a spot
on the bubble) because we were picked to finish 9th, but you absolutely refuse to apply that same logic to any other team in the league, including Butler who was picked to finish 8th just a few points ahead of us, Creighton picked for 7th or DePaul who was picked to finish behind us in last.
Butler is not the 11th best team in the country...not by a long shot. There is no chance they are ranked that high at the end of the season.
In-season rankings are not predictions. They are a reflection of what a team has achieved to date.
The fact that you won’t admit we didn’t have a a real head coach who had a plan is mind boggling. Transfer U didn’t work. Part time Mitch didn’t develop players. The entire program needs to be rebuilt. This year and next year are rebuilding years. They shouldn’t be. But that’s what the hero left us.
Yesterday we played a top 25 team. Our second best player was injured. Our best player did basically nothing.
Under the circumstances If we would have won it would have been one of the best wins in my life time. Anyone who disagrees is lying to themselves.
Plenty of fun basketball left.
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Entire body of work. Pre-conference play does matter especially when you have several quality wins on your resume. I'm basing my opinion of Butler on their entire season, conference and non-conference play.
The fact that they were picked #8 in the BE preseason in October means little when evaluating them versus what they've actually done on the court to earn their #11 national ranking and #4 NET ranking.
Ok again there are rankings and there are conference projections.
The Big East projections do NOT take any out of conference games into consideration. This is why there is overall standings and conference standings.
Being projected 8th in Big East does not translate as you are a bad team. The difference between 3rd and 7th last year was 1 game. We made the tourney finishing in 7th place.
The point is again if we can't beat Butler at home (we get a pass for no Mustapha) then we are going to have a tough time against everyone.
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This is why you can’t be taken seriously. You consistently post that this is a rebuilding year (while simultaneously predicting a spot
on the bubble) because we were picked to finish 9th, but you absolutely refuse to apply that same logic to any other team in the league, including Butler who was picked to finish 8th just a few points ahead of us, Creighton picked for 7th or DePaul who was picked to finish behind us in last.
Butler is not the 11th best team in the country...not by a long shot. There is no chance they are ranked that high at the end of the season.
In-season rankings are not predictions. They are a reflection of what a team has achieved to date.
They are ranked 11 today (and even higher in the important NET ranking) and that's all that matters at this point of the season. It would've been a huge resume win last night towards a tourney bid. It was a tough loss, not a bad loss. 9 conf wins is still the magic number for this team.
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Ok again there are rankings and there are conference projections.
The Big East projections do NOT take any out of conference games into consideration. This is why there is overall standings and conference standings.
Being projected 8th in Big East does not translate as you are a bad team. The difference between 3rd and 7th last year was 1 game. We made the tourney finishing in 7th place.
The point is again if we can't beat Butler at home (we get a pass for no Mustapha) then we are going to have a tough time against everyone.
It sounds like you're putting more weight into Butler's projected finish in the Big East than looking at their body of work on the court to this point in the 2019-2020 season. I understand that their body of work was out of conference however the NCAA committee looks at every game, not just league opponents. Furthermore if you're going to evaluate a team, are you going to evaluate them off their preseason predicted finish or off their W-L record to date in the current season?
No objective pollster would rank Butler as the 8th best team in the BE if they made this prediction today.
Not sure how you're making the connection that losing to Butler last night will make it hard for the Johnnies to beat any team in the league.
I suppose you could say that if you mean that on any given night any team in the Big East can lose to any other team in the conference because it's as deep and there's as much competitive balance as ever. In that sense, sure.
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A week ago you said you hadn’t seen zona or WVU play in a decade, but we can assume you know all 9 BE teams front and back?
I don’t know them well at all, but I am at least familiar with them unlike WV and Zona. I don’t even know St. John’s under Anderson well yet to be honest.
If the coaches had to vote again tonight I would think we’d be last. We’be never seen a conference with no weak teams before.
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They are ranked 11 today (and even higher in the important NET ranking) and that's all that matters at this point of the season. It would've been a huge resume win last night towards a tourney bid. It was a tough loss, not a bad loss. 9 conf wins is still the magic number for this team.
A ranking isn’t a prediction. It is a reflection of what the team has achieved to date. Nobody in the country would argue they are the 11th best team in college basketball.
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A ranking isn’t a prediction. It is a reflection of what the team has achieved to date. Nobody in the country would argue they are the 11th best team in college basketball.
My point exactly. They've far exceeded that preseason prediction and will continue to do so.
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So you're trying to compare rankings with projections. They are two different things.
Butler was projected to finish 8th in conference. A conference that might get 7 teams in the NCAA Tournament. The Big East is a monster which is the point I'm trying to raise.
If we can't beat Butler at home then we are going to have a tough time beating anyone. Not to say we can't, we won't, but it's not promising sign.
My point is that the fact they were picked to finish 8th in the league before the season started is completely irrelevant to whatever point you’re trying to make because if those predictions were made again last week they would have been predicted to finish 1st and 2nd.
Losing at home is always problematic but we were never going to go 9-0 at home. The fact that the loss was to Butler doesn’t mean we will or won’t struggle at home against other BE teams because Butler is at worst the 2nd best team in this conference right now.
Again, I still don’t see why you keep bringing up the fact they were predicted to finish 8th in what are now wildly outdated predictions. They are undoubtedly one of the two best teams in the conference right now.
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A ranking isn’t a prediction. It is a reflection of what the team has achieved to date. Nobody in the country would argue they are the 11th best team in college basketball.
Right. Most would argue they’re better than 11th
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Thank you. Exactly.
Np Dave. I got your back...always.
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What we cant make analysis and change how we feel about a team until the outcome of the game?
Yes, certainly you can. I just find it comical and entertaining when people make statements early on in contests, or seasons for that matter, that later on turn out to be entirely wrong. Something I'll never be guilty of.
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The goal is to compete for championships,
The goal at St. Johns is not to compete for championships. The goal is to squeak into the Ncaa tournament. The unreasonable, pie in the sky goal is to actually win an Ncaa tournament game. Competing for championships is not even on the radar for us.
This toxic, ridiculous thinking is what was behind the unreasonable expectations for the Mullin regime. It's what will get CFC fired 4 years from now as well.
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But that’s what the hero left us.
The hero left us two 2nd team all conference selections plus Roberts, Williams and the Duke.
He was left Alibagavic, Jones and Felix the cat. And if I'm not mistaken only AA played.
Any success the team has this season will have Mullins finger prints all over it.
Thank you Chris for leaving the team in such better shape than you found it. Thank you!
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This is why you can’t be taken seriously. You consistently post that this is a rebuilding year (while simultaneously predicting a spot
on the bubble) because we were picked to finish 9th, but you absolutely refuse to apply that same logic to any other team in the league, including Butler who was picked to finish 8th just a few points ahead of us, Creighton picked for 7th or DePaul who was picked to finish behind us in last.
Butler is not the 11th best team in the country...not by a long shot. There is no chance they are ranked that high at the end of the season.
In-season rankings are not predictions. They are a reflection of what a team has achieved to date.
So West Virginia isn’t as good as you. think but is 11-1 and only loss is to us, Arizona isn’t as good as you think, and Butler isn’t as good as you think, so pretty much any team we compete with and either barely beat or lose barely too isn’t very good, maybe you finally have a defensive team, because other posters on here have claimed that Mullin wasn’t a very good defensive coach.
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The hero left us two 2nd team all conference selections plus Roberts, Williams and the Duke.
He was left Alibagavic, Jones and Felix the cat.
Any success the team has this season will have Mullins finger prints all over it.
Thank you Chris for leaving the team in such better shape than you found it. Thank you!
left with two players that have played over 15 minutes a game last year LOL, that’s def not much, Williams, Roberts, and Earlington combined for 5.4 pts a game last year.
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It sounds like you're putting more weight into Butler's projected finish in the Big East than looking at their body of work on the court to this point in the 2019-2020 season. I understand that their body of work was out of conference however the NCAA committee looks at every game, not just league opponents. Furthermore if you're going to evaluate a team, are you going to evaluate them off their preseason predicted finish or off their W-L record to date in the current season?
No objective pollster would rank Butler as the 8th best team in the BE if they made this prediction today.
Not sure how you're making the connection that losing to Butler last night will make it hard for the Johnnies to beat any team in the league.
I suppose you could say that if you mean that on any given night any team in the Big East can lose to any other team in the conference because it's as deep and there's as much competitive balance as ever. In that sense, sure.
You're making an argument against a point I'm not making.
I'm not dismissing Butler or ignoring their body of work or success or questioning their future success or their NCAA potential.
They were considered to be near the bottom of the conference and we lost to them at home. On our path for a successful season this would have been one you wanted a W in. Same could be said for Vermont.
Our road became a little tougher and its unsettling at how poor conference play can look like.
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My point exactly. They've far exceeded that preseason prediction and will continue to do so.
How have they exceeded a preseason prediction? They've only played 1 game!!!
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My point is that the fact they were picked to finish 8th in the league before the season started is completely irrelevant to whatever point you’re trying to make because if those predictions were made again last week they would have been predicted to finish 1st and 2nd.
Losing at home is always problematic but we were never going to go 9-0 at home. The fact that the loss was to Butler doesn’t mean we will or won’t struggle at home against other BE teams because Butler is at worst the 2nd best team in this conference right now.
Again, I still don’t see why you keep bringing up the fact they were predicted to finish 8th in what are now wildly outdated predictions. They are undoubtedly one of the two best teams in the conference right now.
Their record to date does not impact conference play. Because they beat Purdue does not increase or decrease their chances against Nova.
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Their record to date does not impact conference play. Because they beat Purdue does not increase or decrease their chances against Nova.
Sorry, but this is a pretty ignorant statement. Oh, yes it does. Are you telling me, when they do the line on the game vs Villanova their prior ooc record has no bearing?
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Their record to date does not impact conference play. Because they beat Purdue does not increase or decrease their chances against Nova.
Dave, this is among the dumbest points ever made here. You're claiming that predictions made in October before any games have been played are more useful and more accurate than the metrics and body of work based on the results of 2 months of games. Again, the fact that they were picked to finish 8th in October has literally zero relevance in January. If today was selection Sunday they'd be a 1 seed. Now, a ton can and will change between now and Mid-March, but the fact you're pointing to preseason predictions to drag down a 13-1 legit top 10 team is mind boggling to me.
I'll ask this one more time but you'll probably avoid answering it again. If those same pre-conference play predictions were made on December 29th, one day before conference play started, rather than mid October, where do you think Butler would be predicted to finish?
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Their record to date does not impact conference play. Because they beat Purdue does not increase or decrease their chances against Nova.
And also for the record, if Vegas had to put a point spread on a neutral court game between Villanova and Butler based on what they knew in mid-October the line would have been around Villanova -8. If they are making that line based on what they know now it would be Butler -3.5. This is a fact.
So yeah, the fact they beat Purdue (and Minnesota, and Missouri, and Stanford and Ole Miss and Florida) definitely increases their chances to beat Villanova compared to what those chances were perceived to be in Mid October.
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left with two players that have played over 15 minutes a game last year LOL, that’s def not much,
I do admire this clever use of statistics to shine the coaching performance of CFC this season in the best possible light. It does omit that the two over 15 minutes were last seasons 2nd and 3rd leading scorers that averaged 31.7 and 32 minutes respectively. These two were so good that they were both 2nd team pre-season all conference selections. Yeah, not a rebuild.
Williams, Roberts, and Earlington combined for 5.4 pts a game last year.
Yes, not surprising that Mullin was not big on playing freshmen. To be expected as he suckled at the Carnesecca teet who always did the same. Moses over Jackson famously among others. Williams played the most of this trio and showed promise last year. Roberts and the Duke showed this observer nothing last season but have been pleasant surprises. Any way you slice it, that's 5 holdovers that are huge contributors in this year's lineup. By contrast, legend had 0 holdovers from the Lavin days that contributed.
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So West Virginia isn’t as good as you. think but is 11-1 and only loss is to us, Arizona isn’t as good as you think, and Butler isn’t as good as you think, so pretty much any team we compete with and either barely beat or lose barely too isn’t very good, maybe you finally have a defensive team, because other posters on here have claimed that Mullin wasn’t a very good defensive coach.
What are you tying to write, guy? Take a deep breath, have a glass of water and try again.
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I do admire this clever use of statistics to shine the coaching performance of CFC this season in the best possible light. It does omit that the two over 15 minutes were last seasons 2nd and 3rd leading scorers that averaged 31.7 and 32 minutes respectively. These two were so good that they were both 2nd team pre-season all conference selections. Yeah, not a rebuild. Yes, not surprising that Mullin was not big on playing freshmen. To be expected as he suckled at the Carnesecca teet who always did the same. Moses over Jackson famously among others. Williams played the most of this trio and showed promise last year. Roberts and the Duke showed this observer nothing last season but have been pleasant surprises. Any way you slice it, that's 5 holdovers that are huge contributors in this year's lineup. By contrast, legend had 0 holdovers from the Lavin days that contributed.
Come on man. Why don't you admit things that everyone else can see.This coach actually has a system and seems to develop players. Last night if Mullin was coaching that game with Heron out and LJ in foul trouble all game they would have lost by 30 points. The players that did nothing under Mullin last year have seemed to really play better under coach Andersons system. You have to admit that's coaching
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left with two players that have played over 15 minutes a game last year LOL, that’s def not much, Williams, Roberts, and Earlington combined for 5.4 pts a game last year.
Who would write this when Earlington, Williams, and Roberts have been playing so well all year, Caraher is starting, and two guys were named preseason second team? And throw in 6’9 260 Steere for sh*ts and giggles. How many players does a coach need in the age of the grad transfer/waiver era?!
Seriously, wtf is wrong with some of you?
Before you ever arrived I said Earlington would be a good player here and that Roberts and Williams had all-league potential as upperclassmen. Nobody liked that trio more and I still didn’t think any of them were ready to contribute meaningful minutes last year. Roberts was raw and way too weak. Williams surprised me a bit and I wrote a post titled something along the lines that of his development was the sign of a healthy program—bringing along a quality freshman at an appropriate pace is a luxury we haven’t had in many years and something some Big East schools have done for decades.
Xavier and Creighton have redshirted at least five players I can name off the top of my head that went on to be drafted such as Justin Patton (drafted as the #16 overall player in 2017 after his redshirt freshman season). David West went to be the AP National Player of the year and was chosen #18 overall after being redshirted. But Patton really drives the point home. He was a 7’0 center with NBA potential that had no chance at of staying all four years and he was still too frail to be of any use to Creighton. If McDermott had been replaced and Patton would have had the same freshman year he had all the credit would have gone to the new coach from people who don’t understand d the game.
Butler’s McDermott played just 10 mpg as a freshman and is one of the best players in the conference as a senior.
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I do admire this clever use of statistics to shine the coaching performance of CFC this season in the best possible light. It does omit that the two over 15 minutes were last seasons 2nd and 3rd leading scorers that averaged 31.7 and 32 minutes respectively. These two were so good that they were both 2nd team pre-season all conference selections. Yeah, not a rebuild. Yes, not surprising that Mullin was not big on playing freshmen. To be expected as he suckled at the Carnesecca teet who always did the same. Moses over Jackson famously among others. Williams played the most of this trio and showed promise last year. Roberts and the Duke showed this observer nothing last season but have been pleasant surprises. Any way you slice it, that's 5 holdovers that are huge contributors in this year's lineup. By contrast, legend had 0 holdovers from the Lavin days that contributed.
It’s not a “clever use of statistics” it is blatant intellectual dishonesty. It’s
exhausting and it makes middle ground impossible.
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The goal at St. Johns is not to compete for championships. The goal is to squeak into the Ncaa tournament. The unreasonable, pie in the sky goal is to actually win an Ncaa tournament game. Competing for championships is not even on the radar for us.
This toxic, ridiculous thinking is what was behind the unreasonable expectations for the Mullin regime. It's what will get CFC fired 4 years from now as well.
BE regular season championship, BE tournament championship. These are realistic goals to strive for.
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Who would write this when Earlington, Williams, and Roberts have been playing so well all year, Caraher is starting, and two guys were named preseason second team? And throw in 6’9 260 Steere for sh*ts and giggles. How many players does a coach need in the age of the grad transfer/waiver era?!
You say this yet believe the team may still finish in last place? Either the roster isn’t good enough to finish top 3 in the league or It is and the coach cant coach. Which is it?
For the record I agree we may finish last in the league, I’m not letting CMA’s brilliance cloud my assessment of the roster. Hence my position that it’s a rebuilding year. That being said coach has these boys playing hard!
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You say this yet believe the team may still finish in last place? Either the roster isn’t good enough to finish top 3 in the league or It is and the coach cant coach. Which is it?
For the record I agree we may finish last in the league, I’m not letting CMA’s brilliance cloud my assessment of the roster. Hence my position that it’s a rebuilding year. That being said coach has these boys playing hard!
No, you are trying to play it both ways. If he wins he’s amazing and if he loses it’s a rebuilding year. We have one of the deepest rosters on the conference. How is that a rebuild? You are either impossibly stupid or first ballot at trolling.
Anderson’s “brilliance” got him got fired after last season. His brilliance doesn’t seem to allow him to draw up anything in the half court or in-bounds plays.
If your goal is to have Anderson accepted as a good coach then stop holding him out to unrealistic standards like brilliant and savior. That will make posters push back.
It’s becoming clear that Anderson had his team prepared, ready to play hard, willing to hit the glass and defend, and that he can squeeze production out of almost anyone. It’s equally as clear that he is not a good tactician.
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You say this yet believe the team may still finish in last place? Either the roster isn’t good enough to finish top 3 in the league or It is and the coach cant coach. Which is it?
Do you understand how insane you come off? Does middle ground not exist for you? Top three in the league or nothing?
A rebuilding year with this much talent? Amar, Christian, and Felix is rebuilding. Not this.
We have the best athlete in the conference in Dunn. Roberts is top 5 there too and Williams is probably top 15-20. Earlington is the strongest player in the conference. Our front court is top 5. We are one of the deepest teams. We just lack the PG play most teams in our league have. That’s it. In such a competitive year for the league it is the glaring weaknesses that will make the difference. The one unusual caveat there is that Dunn and Williams are such dynamic athletes and defenders at the position that it mitigates the differential.
If all of the players in the league went in a draft where the drafting team would keep the player for his entire career, Champagnie would be a first round pick. Williams, Earlington, and Roberts would all go in the first four or five rounds. Amar, Christian, and Felix would have gone undrafted in a 13 round draft...perhaps Felix would have been drafted on athletic potential late.
Our two seasons of being ranked in the top 15 in the last two decades came with first year coaches. Your rebuilding argument is one if the worst ever offered on this forum.
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A ranking isn’t a prediction. It is a reflection of what the team has achieved to date. Nobody in the country would argue they are the 11th best team in college basketball.
I bet if you did a poll of college basketball writers, some would say Butler is better than 11, some would say worse, but on average they would be 11th. Probably a very similar result if you surveyed college coaches. Too bad no one does that so we can’t verify which of us is right.
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Do you understand how insane you come off? Does middle ground not exist for you? Top three in the league or nothing?
A rebuilding year with this much talent? Amar, Christian, and Felix is rebuilding. Not this.
We have the best athlete in the conference in Dunn. Roberts is top 5 there too and Williams is probably top 15-20. Earlington is the strongest player in the conference. Our front court is top 5. We are one of the deepest teams. We just lack the PG play most teams in our league have. That’s it. In such a competitive year for the league it is the glaring weaknesses that will make the difference. The one unusual caveat there is that Dunn and Williams are such dynamic athletes and defenders at the position that it mitigates the differential.
If all of the players in the league went in a draft where the drafting team would keep the player for his entire career, Champagnie would be a first round pick. Williams, Earlington, and Roberts would all go in the first four or five rounds. Amar, Christian, and Felix would have gone undrafted in a 13 round draft...perhaps Felix would have been drafted on athletic potential late.
Our two seasons of being ranked in the top 15 in the last two decades came with first year coaches. Your rebuilding argument is one if the worst ever offered on this forum.
It's becoming evident that Rutherford is a competent Big East PG. His maturity and defensive presence has been a big help this whole season.
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It's becoming evident that Rutherford is a competent Big East PG. His maturity and defensive presence has been a big help this whole season.
True that!!Have seen tremendous improvement since day one...been our best defender along with Williams by a mile...
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Please remember BannerMountainMan is not a SJU fan, but a Mike Anderson fan. I suspect he is his son, but I cannot confirm this.
Everything he writes will be to make Anderson look good. Keep that in mind when reading his posts.
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It's becoming evident that Rutherford is a competent Big East PG. His maturity and defensive presence has been a big help this whole season.
His defense has been top-notch, from the outset. His offense has improved the last two games, as well.
It's funny, I was OK with bringing him on board, despite his pedestrian stats at Monmouth, because he was a grad transfer, and wouldn't cost us future recruits. Now, I'm upset that he's a grad transfer, because by the time his skills flesh out, he'll be out of here.
But, I think players like Rutherford are going to be symbolic of Anderson's overall recruting strategy. Basically, he looks for system fits first, star ratings second (it would be great to have both). John Beilein had a lot of success with this strategy at West Virginia and Michigan (he had some highly ranked guys at Michigan, but not a lot).
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I bet if you did a poll of college basketball writers, some would say Butler is better than 11, some would say worse, but on average they would be 11th. Probably a very similar result if you surveyed college coaches. Too bad no one does that so we can’t verify which of us is right.
Butler has earned the #11 ranking to date, but no reputable and unbiased coach or writer believes they are the 11th best team in the country.
How could that be possible when they haven’t beaten a single team in the AP Top 25 poll and lost to the only one it faced?
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Please remember BannerMountainMan is not a SJU fan, but a Mike Anderson fan. I suspect he is his son, but I cannot confirm this.
Everything he writes will be to make Anderson look good. Keep that in mind when reading his posts.
It’s clear that he is a relative...I’d guess son as well. Whatever the connection, props for not using his real name like that crazy b*tch who was the mother of the 22 year old soph PG we lost.
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BE regular season championship, BE tournament championship. These are realistic goals to strive for.
Nope ... and no matter how much your goal posts shift or your arguments go both ways ...
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Butler has earned the #11 ranking to date, but no reputable and unbiased coach or writer believes they are the 11th best team in the country.
How could that be possible when they haven’t beaten a single team in the AP Top 25 poll and lost to the only one it faced?
As usual you are way wrong on this. Every single metrics site has them better than the 11th they are on the AP poll so they're actually better than their ranking indicates, not worse.
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Come on man. Why don't you admit things that everyone else can see.
Ok. I wouldn't want to be labeled a contrarian.
This coach actually has a system
Yes he does. 40 minutes of hell, defensive pressure and trapping to force turnovers and easy baskets and fast break offense.
Mullin had a system too. Pro style, star dominated offense with individual decision making and freedom to create one on one, drive confidently or shoot the three without conscience at a premium.
and seems to develop players.
Williams, Dr. Roberts and the Duke have been pleasant surprises. I'm willing to give credit to the current staff for this. Yet, I'm also aware that freshmen becoming better players as sophomores is not an uncommon occurrence.
Mullin developed players too. Walden, LJ and Garfunkel spring to mind.
Last night if Mullin was coaching that game with Heron out and LJ in foul trouble all game they would have lost by 30 points.
I don't know what hypothetically would have happened in some alternate universe. Neither do you.
The players that did nothing under Mullin last year have seemed to really play better under coach Andersons system. You have to admit that's coaching.
See above.
How about the players that did something? Gil Scott's been good playing against the Sisters of the Poor. Against decent teams - not so much. In the smallest of sample sizes, LJ was horrific in the conference opener.
[/quote]
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It’s not a “clever use of statistics” it is blatant intellectual dishonesty. It’s
exhausting and it makes middle ground impossible.
I was trying to be kind.
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BE regular season championship, BE tournament championship. These are realistic goals to strive for.
If it's realistic, why hasn't it been even sniffed at in 20 years?
Oh yeah. Wait I got it. We haven't had the right coach and now we do.
My goal is to bang supermodels. That's not working out well for me either.
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All I wanted to do was come over and be a St Johns fan but y’all are bipolar, Marillac changes his tone about teams every few days which fits the narrative, I have not said anything very positive about CMA, I have said they have played good and before the year you all picked 13-15 wins for this team, now that the season is here and they have played well and now have lost to the #11 team you say this roster is great and it’s not at all a rebuilding year but only a BE top 5 team. Everyone of y’all didn’t know what to expect for Williams, Earlington, And Roberts and now that they have played well, which has been not credited at all to development.
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As usual you are way wrong on this. Every single metrics site has them better than the 11th they are on the AP poll so they're actually better than their ranking indicates, not worse.
Are you as stupid as the rest of the holdovers? I wrote that they’ve earned their spot based on their resume to date. That doesn’t make them the 11th best team, though. They may have the 11th best resume or even the best f*cking resume on January 2nd, but they aren’t even remotely close to the 11th best team in the country on the court. Nobody with half a brain would make that claim.
They haven’t won a single game against a top 25 ranked team.
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As usual you are way wrong on this. Every single metrics site has them better than the 11th they are on the AP poll so they're actually better than their ranking indicates, not worse.
If you think Butler is the 11th best team then put your money where your mouth is (or fingers are).
I bet you $1,000 that Butler won’t be a 3 seed or better. Hell, I’d even extend it to a four seed. What say you to that, you Metric Sexual?
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Are you as stupid as the rest of the holdovers? I wrote that they’ve earned their spot based on their resume to date. That doesn’t make them the 11th best team, though. They may have the 11th best resume or even the best f*cking resume on January 2nd, but they aren’t even remotely close to the 11th best team in the country on the court. Nobody with half a brain would make that claim.
They haven’t won a single game against a top 25 ranked team.
As I said, you're an idiot. They are better than the 11th best team in the country and all metrics sites agree on this.
Their only loss was 1 point loss on the road against 11th ranked on KP Baylor. They crushed the KP 12th ranked team on a neutral court, crushed the 24th ranked KP team and have 3 more wins against top 60 KP teams plus another 2 road wins over KP 80 (us) and KP 84.
There are not 11 teams better than them right now.
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If it's realistic, why hasn't it been even sniffed at in 20 years?
Oh yeah. Wait I got it. We haven't had the right coach and now we do.
My goal is to bang supermodels. That's not working out well for me either.
Norm Roberts and coach Mullin couldn’t win the big east if they coached for a thousand years. That doesn’t mean that this school is cursed.
The hardy team certainly could have won the big east. They definitely competed for it. Harrison’s junior and senior year teams were good enough. Our current team has a shot.
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As I said, you're an idiot. They are better than the 11th best team in the country and all metrics sites agree on this.
Their only loss was 1 point loss on the road against 11th ranked on KP Baylor. They crushed the KP 12th ranked team on a neutral court, crushed the 24th ranked KP team and have 3 more wins against top 60 KP teams plus another 2 road wins over KP 80 (us) and KP 84.
There are not 11 teams better than them right now.
So if they are the 11th best team or better than why won’t you bet on them being a lowly four seed?
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So if they are the 11th best team or better than why won’t you bet on them being a lowly four seed?
Huh, I think you got some posters mixed up.
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We have the best athlete in the conference in Dunn.
Roberts is top 5 there too and Williams is probably top 15-20.
Earlington is the strongest player in the conference.
Our front court is top 5.
We are one of the deepest teams.
We just lack the PG play most teams in our league have.
We have the best athlete in the conference in Dunn - he is not even best athlete on his own team
Roberts is top 5 there too and Williams is probably top 15-20 - maybe
Earlington is the strongest player in the conference - how exactly is this measured
Our front court is top 5 - maybe but not likely
We are one of the deepest teams - this is looking to be true
We just lack the PG play most teams in our league have - but you think the point guard is the best athlete in the league
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Please remember BannerMountainMan is not a SJU fan, but a Mike Anderson fan. I suspect he is his son, but I cannot confirm this.
Everything he writes will be to make Anderson look good. Keep that in mind when reading his posts.
I get why he is here. Why are u?
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Everyone of y’all didn’t know what to expect for Williams, Earlington, And Roberts and now that they have played well, which has been not credited at all to development.
This is what I wrote about this merely a couple of posts up in this very thread. We're bipolar?
"Williams, Dr. Roberts and the Duke have been pleasant surprises. I'm willing to give credit to the current staff for this."
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The hardy team certainly could have won the big east. They definitely competed for it. Harrison’s junior and senior year teams were good enough. Our current team has a shot.
"The hardy team certainly could have won the big east" if not for the fact that they squeaked by Rutgers on a Wednesday night when Jim Burr suffered a nervous breakdown late, then they lost to Syracuse in the quarterfinals.
"Harrison’s junior and senior year teams were good enough." except for the fact that both teams got beat by Providence in the quarterfinals. Crushed their senior year.
"Our current team has a shot" - Not!
Your credo should be "I type - therefore I'm wrong."
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Do you understand how insane you come off? Does middle ground not exist for you? Top three in the league or nothing?
A rebuilding year with this much talent? Amar, Christian, and Felix is rebuilding. Not this.
We have the best athlete in the conference in Dunn. Roberts is top 5 there too and Williams is probably top 15-20. Earlington is the strongest player in the conference. Our front court is top 5. We are one of the deepest teams. We just lack the PG play most teams in our league have. That’s it. In such a competitive year for the league it is the glaring weaknesses that will make the difference. The one unusual caveat there is that Dunn and Williams are such dynamic athletes and defenders at the position that it mitigates the differential.
If all of the players in the league went in a draft where the drafting team would keep the player for his entire career, Champagnie would be a first round pick. Williams, Earlington, and Roberts would all go in the first four or five rounds. Amar, Christian, and Felix would have gone undrafted in a 13 round draft...perhapsz a Felix would have been drafted on athletic potential late.
Our two seasons of being ranked in the top 15 in the last two decades came with first year coaches. Your rebuilding argument is one if the worst ever offered on this forum.
Can we stop comparing what Anderson inherited to what Mullin did as if what Mullin inherited is the rebuilding standard. Rutherford is playing very well so you can’t point to the PG position as a glaring weakness.
Here is were your argument is faulty. Since the PG play has been good based on the assessment of the other players you laid out why would they finish in last place?
I’ll tell you why and it goes to why this is a rebuilding year. Roberts wouldn’t be starting on any other BE team. Earlington and Williams are backups. The only difference between Roberts and Earlington game from last year to this year is the way they are being used. Outside of LJ and Heron, coach inherited backups. You need more than 2 players.
Dunn, Champagnie, Rutherford, and Sears Anderson brought in and were single handily responsible for few wins and make for the depth you speak of.
Just like your argument for Butler not being as good as their ranking I believe you will see Roberts stats begin to fall during conference play.
Top 5 front court yet we should finish in last place the way Rutherford and Dunn has been playing makes no sense unless it’s a terrible coaching job. I take the opposite position and believe the roster isn’t that good but Anderson is good enough to win some games he shouldn’t, he’s done so already and it’s not because of Heron or LJ.
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"The hardy team certainly could have won the big east" if not for the fact that they squeaked by Rutgers on a Wednesday night when Jim Burr suffered a nervous breakdown late, then they lost to Syracuse in the quarterfinals.
Heading into the BE tournament anybody who followed us wouldn’t have been surprised if we won the tournament championship that year. The fact that we didn’t isn’t the point.
"Our current team has a shot" - Not!
Agreed, which is why it’s a rebuilding year.
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"The hardy team certainly could have won the big east" if not for the fact that they squeaked by Rutgers on a Wednesday night when Jim Burr suffered a nervous breakdown late, then they lost to Syracuse in the quarterfinals.
"Harrison’s junior and senior year teams were good enough." except for the fact that both teams got beat by Providence in the quarterfinals. Crushed their senior year.
"Our current team has a shot" - Not!
Your credo should be "I type - therefore I'm wrong."
I am well aware we didn’t win those years. Thanks carmine. However they were good enough to win. It was a realistic goal. The hardy team beat the top teams in conference that year. The Lavin teams also won their share not only with providence, but with everyone that wasn’t nova.
It wasn’t a realistic goal the last 4 years. Guess why? And it wasn’t a realistic goal the years Norm was here.
Assuming we are not playing Wednesday night, why couldn’t our current team win 3 games vs this kind of competition?
I wouldn’t bet they would win this year. But I can’t wait for the big east. I know they will fight hard and not embarrass us.
The talent is only going to get better here. Plenty of of games will be won. Including games in March.
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Heading into the BE tournament anybody who followed us wouldn’t have been surprised if we won the tournament championship that year. The fact that we didn’t isn’t the point.
I followed us and not only would I have been surprised but I would have been near heart attack inducing shocked.
The fact that we didn’t isn’t the point.
Yes, it is the point. While it is true on some level that we COULD win the Be championship. We just haven't actually had a realistic shot in 20 years. Back to my previous example - I COULD bang Victoria Secrets models - but it ain't happening.
Agreed, which is why it’s a rebuilding year.
Wrong. The fact that we have no shot at winning the Be tournament this season doesn't make this a rebuilding year. It makes it another typical year for St. John's basketball.
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However they were good enough to win. It was a realistic goal.
If they were good enough to win, then why didn't they win? They didn't lose a tight final or even get to the semis. Anybody can state a goal. That's the easy part. They showed next to nothing that tournament.
Assuming we are not playing Wednesday night, why couldn’t our current team win 3 games vs this kind of competition?
I don't know how you can make any assumption about when we'll be playing. We're 0 - 1. (remember the number to the left is the wins and to the right the losses ) Check that - it's you so I get it. Again, they COULD hypothetically win 3 games in the Be tournament, it might take 4, but they won't. Why? Because We Are...St. Johns!
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If they were good enough to win, then why didn't they win? They didn't lose a tight final or even get to the semis. Anybody can state a goal. That's the easy part. They showed next to nothing that tournament.I don't know how you can make any assumption about when we'll be playing. We're 0 - 1. (remember the number to the left is the wins and to the right the losses ) Check that - it's you so I get it. Again, they COULD hypothetically win 3 games in the Be tournament, it might take 4, but they won't. Why? Because We Are...St. Johns!
I am not sure if you really believe the nonsense that you post. It’s beyond ridiculous.
Those teams didn’t win. That’s a fact. The hardy team was playing great until DJ got hurt. They still competed against a very good Syracuse team.
Harrison’s junior year we were the hottest team in the big east. From memory we played a poor first half. That team was plenty good.
Senior year they got killed.
That’s not the point. All 3 of those teams were good.
You and your ilk continually say we have been bad for 20 years. That’s not true. We were not bad when Jarvis, Fran, and Lavin were coaches.
We were ONLY bad when norm and lazy ass were coaches. Norm looked like he tried. He was completely overmatched. Honestly I can’t believe that you actually believe that mullin was a real coach. He barely spoke to his players. Did you watch him with you eyes closed?
Anderson is just getting started here. So far he is exceeding just about everyone’s expectations.
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You and your ilk continually say we have been bad for 20 years.
That's not true. You don't seem capable of understanding the topic at hand then put words in my mouth to promote your twisted anti-St. John's agenda.
I never said we've been bad for 20 years. I said that we haven't won a conference championship in 20 years. We've been bad for MOST of the last 20 years. I know that we've had some high points in this millennial (last seasons hugely successful campaign for instance). I was there for all of them. My point is simply that even our best teams never even got close to sniffing a BE conference championship. Which I've pointed out in my other posts.
So it's easy to say our goal is to do this and do that with no recent history to show it's even remotely possible. To me it's disingenuous.
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That's not true. You don't seem capable of understanding the topic at hand then put words in my mouth to promote your twisted anti-St. John's agenda.
I never said we've been bad for 20 years. I said that we haven't won a conference championship in 20 years. We've been bad for MOST of the last 20 years. I know that we've had some high points in this millennial (last seasons hugely successful campaign for instance). I was there for all of them. My point is simply that even our best teams never even got close to sniffing a BE conference championship. Which I've pointed out in my other posts.
So it's easy to say our goal is to do this and do that with no recent history to show it's even remotely possible. To me it's disingenuous.
Last year was not a success. The team looked great early but the team tired because of Mullin’s poor use of the roster....overplaying his key players lead to exhaustion, particularly for Ponds who was never in good shape. I’m a big Mullin fan but after 2 years I could see the writing on the wall. Last year there should have been at least 23 wins. You will argue the freshman were raw. They needed to play during the cupcake schedule so that they could play 8-15 minutes. From the little I saw last year of the three kids, they were all capable of playing enough to help. The Duke in particular looked good in the few minutes he played. Successful teams don’t fold down the stretch.
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I followed us and not only would I have been surprised but I would have been near heart attack inducing shocked.Yes, it is the point. While it is true on some level that we COULD win the Be championship. We just haven't actually had a realistic shot in 20 years. Back to my previous example - I COULD bang Victoria Secrets models - but it ain't happening. Wrong. The fact that we have no shot at winning the Be tournament this season doesn't make this a rebuilding year. It makes it another typical year for St. John's basketball.
If you don’t believe a top 25 team has a realistic chance on winning their conference tournament you don’t understand basketball.
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If you don’t believe a top 25 team has a realistic chance on winning their conference tournament you don’t understand basketball.
If you believe a St. Johns team has a realistic chance of winning their conference tournament regardless of their ranking than you don't understand St. John's basketball.
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Last year was not a success.
I'll agree with this statement only if you believe that no St. John's basketball team has had a successful year this millennium. Because last season matched the best outcome of any team last 20 years.
Last year there should have been at least 23 wins.
How did you arrive at that arbitrary number?
You will argue the freshman were raw.
I'm perfectly capable of coming up with my own ideas.
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https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1212199190815760384
This is awesome! Nice we are getting some love from Fran.
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I'll agree with this statement only if you believe that no St. John's basketball team has had a successful year this millennium. Because last season matched the best outcome of any team last 20 years.How did you arrive at that arbitrary number?I'm perfectly capable of coming up with my own ideas.
2 more wins against DePaul which should have been no problem. What do you think caused last year’s fade?
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If they were good enough to win, then why didn't they win?
Based on that same logic, if we finish in last place or second to last, would that mean the roster Anderson inherited wasn’t good enough to not finish in that position? If the roster isn’t good enough, then we need to rebuild.
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Ok. I wouldn't want to be labeled a contrarian.
Yes he does. 40 minutes of hell, defensive pressure and trapping to force turnovers and easy baskets and fast break offense.
Mullin had a system too. Pro style, star dominated offense with individual decision making and freedom to create one on one, drive confidently or shoot the three without conscience at a premium.
Williams, Dr. Roberts and the Duke have been pleasant surprises. I'm willing to give credit to the current staff for this. Yet, I'm also aware that freshmen becoming better players as sophomores is not an uncommon occurrence.
Mullin developed players too. Walden, LJ and Garfunkel spring to mind.
I don't know what hypothetically would have happened in some alternate universe. Neither do you.
See above.
How about the players that did something? Gil Scott's been good playing against the Sisters of the Poor. Against decent teams - not so much. In the smallest of sample sizes, LJ was horrific in the conference opener.
I actually agree with mostly all of your post here. I guess what I am trying to say is that with Andersons system they do not need to be the most talented team to be able to win every night. I totally agree with you about Mullins system but the problem that I have with it is that he is a brilliant basketball mind, and a lifer. He sees the game way differently than most people do. He has an extremely high basketball IQ and basketball awareness, and he seemed to expect his team and college kids to see what he saw and it just did not translate. He also never seemed to correct anything or discipline a player if they did something wrong during the game, he was to busy complaining to the refs. We have differing pinions but I do respect and appreciate your opinion.
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Are you as stupid as the rest of the holdovers? I wrote that they’ve earned their spot based on their resume to date. That doesn’t make them the 11th best team, though. They may have the 11th best resume or even the best f*cking resume on January 2nd, but they aren’t even remotely close to the 11th best team in the country on the court. Nobody with half a brain would make that claim.
They haven’t won a single game against a top 25 ranked team.
They're #7 on KenPom FWIW
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I actually agree with mostly all of your post here. I guess what I am trying to say is that with Andersons system they do not need to be the most talented team to be able to win every night. I totally agree with you about Mullins system but the problem that I have with it is that he is a brilliant basketball mind, and a lifer. He sees the game way differently than most people do. He has an extremely high basketball IQ and basketball awareness, and he seemed to expect his team and college kids to see what he saw and it just did not translate. He also never seemed to correct anything or discipline a player if they did something wrong during the game, he was to busy complaining to the refs. We have differing pinions but I do respect and appreciate your opinion.
How can you agree with carmine and praise the coach Chris mullin as a basketball genius. Then a few sentences later admit you watched him not coach his team?
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That's not true. You don't seem capable of understanding the topic at hand then put words in my mouth to promote your twisted anti-St. John's agenda.
I never said we've been bad for 20 years. I said that we haven't won a conference championship in 20 years. We've been bad for MOST of the last 20 years. I know that we've had some high points in this millennial (last seasons hugely successful campaign for instance). I was there for all of them. My point is simply that even our best teams never even got close to sniffing a BE conference championship. Which I've pointed out in my other posts.
So it's easy to say our goal is to do this and do that with no recent history to show it's even remotely possible. To me it's disingenuous.
The topic at hand is the butler game. In that game our new coach who is 11-3 almost beat a top 10 team in the country. He did that without his top 2 players. That’s reality. All of you mullintards were quiet until we lost a game.
Now butler is over rated. Even though they are rated high by every metric. Last a MAC school was a good win. But this year a loss to a top 10 team is a bad loss?
Last year mullin had no bench. Now Anderson has all of these great players to work with. You and you ilk are full of crap!
Carmine if you want to bang super models get off you ass and try. You might not ever achieve you goal. But you are never going get there if you don’t give it a shot. So you just like St. John’s basketball isn’t cursed. St. John’s basketball got rid of their dead weight you should to. (I started my diet yesterday)
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2 more wins against DePaul which should have been no problem.
You do know they don't play the games on paper, right? That senior went all Reggie Williams on us.
What do you think caused last year’s fade?
I don't know. The ball didn't go in the basket?
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Based on that same logic, if we finish in last place or second to last, would that mean the roster Anderson inherited wasn’t good enough to not finish in that position? If the roster isn’t good enough, then we need to rebuild.
No it would not mean that. When I wrote "If they were good enough to win, then why didn't they win?" I was of course referring to the team/program in it's entirety. Players, coaches, trainers, staff, fans, etc. The roster is only one part of that that I certainly didn't separate out in my statement.
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We have differing pinions but I do respect and appreciate your opinion.
Thank you. Back at you.
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The topic at hand is the butler game.
My bad. I had sidebarred off that, as I typically do, to the topic of "Is winning conference championships an appropriate goal for SJ basketball and how we haven't even sniffed at accomplishing that for 20 years now."
All of you mullintards were quiet until we lost a game.
Now butler is over rated. Even though they are rated high by every metric. Last a MAC school was a good win. But this year a loss to a top 10 team is a bad loss?
Last year mullin had no bench. Now Anderson has all of these great players to work with. You and you ilk are full of crap!
You're replying to my post with a lot of claims and statements (and name calling) that I've never made nor apply to me. I guess your somehow lumping me in with other posters similarly characterized by not spewing inappropriate hatred towards Chris Mullin in the least appropriate forum imaginable - a St. John's basketball message board. I guess I'm not opposed to that.
Carmine if you want to bang super models get off you ass and try. You might not ever achieve you goal. But you are never going get there if you don’t give it a shot.
People, like basketball programs need to understand there ceiling. For me, if I'm lucky it's bad sex with a fat, ugly shit faced girl I found almost comatose at 3:59 am in the local dive bar. For St. John's basketball it's squeaking into the Ncaa tournament and losing it's 1st game there.
So you just like St. John’s basketball isn’t cursed.
I don't think I ever said they're cursed. I just said they suck and have bad luck.
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My bad. I had sidebarred off that, as I typically do, to the topic of "Is winning conference championships an appropriate goal for SJ basketball and how we haven't even sniffed at accomplishing that for 20 years now." You're replying to my post with a lot of claims and statements (and name calling) that I've never made nor apply to me. I guess your somehow lumping me in with other posters similarly characterized by not spewing inappropriate hatred towards Chris Mullin in the least appropriate forum imaginable - a St. John's basketball message board. I guess I'm not opposed to that. People, like basketball programs need to understand there ceiling. For me, if I'm lucky it's bad sex with a fat, ugly shit faced girl I found almost comatose at 3:59 am in the local dive bar. For St. John's basketball it's squeaking into the Ncaa tournament and losing it's 1st game there.
I don't think I ever said they're cursed. I just said they suck and have bad luck.
My apologies. I have lumped you in. I don’t understand anyone being negative right now. We have a good team. Better then everyone thought. In time maybe even good enough to break what ever bad luck we have experienced.
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No it would not mean that. When I wrote "If they were good enough to win, then why didn't they win?" I was of course referring to the team/program in it's entirety.
But the topic was if the team had a realistic shot at winning the BE championship those years. Just because they didn’t win it doesn’t validate your position that they didn’t have a realistic chance of doing so, especially Lavin’s first year. Our program was bad under two coaches, Norm and Mullin. Under other coaches this millennium we were relevant and had a shot at winning.
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If you believe a St. Johns team has a realistic chance of winning their conference tournament regardless of their ranking than you don't understand St. John's basketball.
Let’s not let the dark years under Norm and Coach Mullin define the legacy of St. John’s basketball. We can win here, better coaches have shown that. Anderson will as well.
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But the topic was if the team had a realistic shot at winning the BE championship those years. Just because they didn’t win it doesn’t validate your position that they didn’t have a realistic chance of doing so, especially Lavin’s first year. Our program was bad under two coaches, Norm and Mullin. Under other coaches this millennium we were relevant and had a shot at winning.
Comparing Norm and Mullin is laughable.
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Comparing Norm and Mullin is laughable.
BE winning %
Mullin .385%
Norm .457%
Considering when Norm coached it was the old BE if your point is comparing the two could be an insult to Norm you may have one.
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BE winning %
Mullin .385%
Norm .457%
Considering when Norm coached it was the old BE if your point is comparing the two could be an insult to Norm you may have one.
And I’d you’re gonna be fair it was easier to pick up wins in the bottom half of the old big east. The top was a monster but there was consistently 5 teams around us in the basement.
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20-52 = 27.8%
You are giving Mullin way too much credit.
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https://twitter.com/phavrephan4/status/1213267418472206337?s=19
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Good news. We need LJ to show up too.
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My apologies. I have lumped you in.
No worries.
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Just because they didn’t win it doesn’t validate your position that they didn’t have a realistic chance of doing so, especially Lavin’s first year.
Perhaps not. But the fact that a) They're St. Johns and b) They didn't make it past the quarterfinals render my position a slam dunk reality.
Our program was bad under two coaches, Norm and Mullin. Under other coaches this millennium we were relevant and had a shot at winning.
Don't Tha kid yourself. Our level of sucktitude was enormous under other coaches as well. 03-04 under Jarvis/Clark was the second worse team we've ever fielded. And Hollywood's 11-12 prostate cancer team was horrendous following the graduation of the devine Paris Horne.
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Comparing Norm and Mullin is laughable.
Mullin - 1 Ncaa tournament bid in 4 seasons
Norm - 0 Ncaa tournament bids in 6 seasons
It is laughable.
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Mullin - 1 Ncaa tournament bid in 4 seasons
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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Mullin - 1 Ncaa tournament bid in 4 seasons
Norm - 0 Ncaa tournament bids in 6 seasons
It is laughable.
Combined yes it is laughable.
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20-52 = 27.8%
You are giving Mullin way too much credit.
Thanks for the Correction
Mullin 27.8
Norm 31.4
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Mullin - 1 Ncaa tournament bid in 4 seasons
Norm - 0 Ncaa tournament bids in 6 seasons
It is laughable.
If 20-52 coached during Norms time he wouldn’t had stumbled into the play-in game either.
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Comparing Norm and Mullin is laughable.
Yeah norm tried and he had a better big east record.
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Yeah norm tried and he had a better big east record.
m
Norm inherited Showtime and Lamont Hamilton after their freshmen season. They both made all-conference in the old Big East. He was also immediately gifted a top 75 recruit from a high school teammate who played his best year’s in our home arena.
Praising Norm in any way is disgusting. He was awful.
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m
Norm inherited Showtime and Lamont Hamilton after their freshmen season. They both made all-conference in the old Big East. He was also immediately gifted a top 75 recruit from a high school teammate who played his best year’s in our home arena.
Praising Norm in any way is disgusting. He was awful.
Norm was awful. But even if you think he didn’t try. He still won more games then Chris Mullin.
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Norm was awful. But even if you think he didn’t try. He still won more games then Chris Mullin.
So what. Mullin danced in less years...and Norm didn't in more years. Mullin a much better coach. Case closed.
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Norm was awful. But even if you think he didn’t try. He still won more games then Chris Mullin.
You are a true buffoon. Norm Roberts was awful by every objective standard. He was 6-12 with roster of 11 juniors and a 5th year senior! That same roster went 12-6 sans Mase Jr.
Debating with an idiot is pointless. Congratulations on becoming the second poster I will ignore in 20 years.
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How can you agree with carmine and praise the coach Chris mullin as a basketball genius. Then a few sentences later admit you watched him not coach his team?
I said I agreed with Carmine about what Mullins system was. I said that his system did not work here, because St. John's was not an NBA team and did not have the talent to run a system like an NBA team. He didn't coach the team, he complained to the refs and did not discipline any player after a poor decision or shot. His system is basically let the players do what they want with no reprecussions. That doesn't play at the college level.
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Lunardi has butler as a 1 seed.
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Lunardi has butler as a 1 seed.
He also has as on the bubble (first 4 out) ... time to start winning
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He also has as on the bubble (first 4 out) ... time to start winning
Someone from fox had us in as 11 seed. Saw that yesterday
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Someone from fox had us in as 11 seed. Saw that yesterday
if today was selection sunday, we'd probably be in dayton like last year. the arizona and west virgina wins currently look really good. and only 4 losses, including two to tourney teams, doesn't hurt too much. teams that are .500 against tourney teams and don't have terrible losses usually get in.
staying .500 against tourney teams from here on out will be the difficult part. If I was the coach I wouldn't change the rotation too much, except maybe to give a few more minutes (~5) to williams, and take them away from Caraher. I'd also cut down on 3 point attempts -- none from anyone other than heron and figueroa; maybe williams if wide open. missed 3s from the rest of the team basically eliminate our advantage in FGA.
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if today was selection sunday, we'd probably be in dayton like last year. the arizona and west virgina wins currently look really good. and only 4 losses, including two to tourney teams, doesn't hurt too much. teams that are .500 against tourney teams and don't have terrible losses usually get in.
staying .500 against tourney teams from here on out will be the difficult part. If I was the coach I wouldn't change the rotation too much, except maybe to give a few more minutes (~5) to williams, and take them away from Caraher. I'd also cut down on 3 point attempts -- none from anyone other than heron and figueroa; maybe williams if wide open. missed 3s from the rest of the team basically eliminate our advantage in FGA.
I agree. Rutherford and Dunn can get to the basket. Their outsides shots are scary.