1980s St.John's defense

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Poison

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1980s St.John's defense
« on: November 30, 2016, 10:17:12 AM »
Can we give that a try?

Late in the game the press turned Delaware State over at least 3 times. Why is that not a defense that we play until it's desperation time?





TONYD3

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Re: 1980s St.John's defense
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2016, 10:58:57 AM »
Can we give that a try?

Late in the game the press turned Delaware State over at least 3 times. Why is that not a defense that we play until it's desperation time?





No depth.

Re: 1980s St.John's defense
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2016, 02:11:32 PM »
Did St John's trademark their 80's Defense? Like the 85 Bears Defense? Sorry but i'm not aware.  ???

Re: 1980s St.John's defense
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2016, 02:49:25 PM »
Can we give that a try?

Late in the game the press turned Delaware State over at least 3 times. Why is that not a defense that we play until it's desperation time?






Have to make shots to set up the press.

Plus, that's not how we played defense in the 80s.  We played basic man-to-man defense back then.  The emphasis Louie put on the guys was foot movement.  Playing defense with your feet, rather then your hands, cut down on reaching fouls, and grabbing fouls.  That was wise, but we never really dialed up the pressure on a regular basis.

Poison

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Re: 1980s St.John's defense
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2016, 03:32:15 PM »
Can we give that a try?

Late in the game the press turned Delaware State over at least 3 times. Why is that not a defense that we play until it's desperation time?






Have to make shots to set up the press.

Plus, that's not how we played defense in the 80s.  We played basic man-to-man defense back then.  The emphasis Louie put on the guys was foot movement.  Playing defense with your feet, rather then your hands, cut down on reaching fouls, and grabbing fouls.  That was wise, but we never really dialed up the pressure on a regular basis.

They scored 34 points in the first half, yet I don't see recall seeing a real press until the game had 3/4 minutes to go. All I'm asking is why not?

Poison

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Re: 1980s St.John's defense
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2016, 03:33:00 PM »
Did St John's trademark their 80's Defense? Like the 85 Bears Defense? Sorry but i'm not aware.  ???

Teams were afraid to come to MSG. Not all of them, but a lot of them.

TONYD3

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Re: 1980s St.John's defense
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2016, 03:35:58 PM »
If Ahmed picks up his second foul in the first 3 minutes we can't compete. I hate zone. But I agree with some others. I would play zone for most of 1st half. And play tough defense in second half. Like Jarvis did.

Poison

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Re: 1980s St.John's defense
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2016, 03:51:16 PM »
If Ahmed picks up his second foul in the first 3 minutes we can't compete. I hate zone. But I agree with some others. I would play zone for most of 1st half. And play tough defense in second half. Like Jarvis did.

It's amazing that Jarvis is the best coach this program has had since Coach retired.

SJUFAN

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Re: 1980s St.John's defense
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2016, 05:36:20 PM »
Can we give that a try?

Late in the game the press turned Delaware State over at least 3 times. Why is that not a defense that we play until it's desperation time?






Have to make shots to set up the press.

Plus, that's not how we played defense in the 80s.  We played basic man-to-man defense back then.  The emphasis Louie put on the guys was foot movement.  Playing defense with your feet, rather then your hands, cut down on reaching fouls, and grabbing fouls.  That was wise, but we never really dialed up the pressure on a regular basis.

They scored 34 points in the first half, yet I don't see recall seeing a real press until the game had 3/4 minutes to go. All I'm asking is why not?

Same reason Syracuse doesn't press the entire game, its the philosophy of the Coach. You have Coaches who do it and those that don't. It's not about the type of offense or defense you run, its the execution of whatever it is you run. Coaches are reluctant to "try" something else if they don't practice it. If they can't execute what they practice the thought isn't going to be "lets switch to something we don't practice". We are losing because the effort hasn't been there and execution has been poor. The staff has done a poor job drilling the rules of their system into the players. It appears that coach wants this to be a high scoring team, not by turning the other team over, but by playing fast and shooting 3's. That's not going to change based on who we play. Some may not agree with it, but that seems to be what it is. Coach will try to bring in players that will play to his system. Since the program was void in talent when he took over, it will take more than one season and 7 games.

And for the record, I keep hearing we need a "X's and O's" coach. You don't think Mullin knows X's and O's? Speak to Norm Roberts about basketball, he knows his X's and O's. The staff needs a great teacher. That is what separates coaches. They all know X's and O's, but the really good ones know how to teach it. They know how to create a "curriculum" of drills that will address and improve areas of deficiencies that are identified and commit time to working on it. Norm's answers were always "we need to play tougher". I've heard Mullin say we need to do a better job putting a body on the opposing player to rebound the ball but is he actually spending significant time emphasizing that with drills in practice? I don't know. If he is then its the player and those elements will improve in time. Cant make that assessment watching games alone.   

         
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 05:43:40 PM by SJUFAN »

Poison

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Re: 1980s St.John's defense
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2016, 07:48:44 PM »
Can we give that a try?

Late in the game the press turned Delaware State over at least 3 times. Why is that not a defense that we play until it's desperation time?






Have to make shots to set up the press.

Plus, that's not how we played defense in the 80s.  We played basic man-to-man defense back then.  The emphasis Louie put on the guys was foot movement.  Playing defense with your feet, rather then your hands, cut down on reaching fouls, and grabbing fouls.  That was wise, but we never really dialed up the pressure on a regular basis.

They scored 34 points in the first half, yet I don't see recall seeing a real press until the game had 3/4 minutes to go. All I'm asking is why not?

Same reason Syracuse doesn't press the entire game, its the philosophy of the Coach. You have Coaches who do it and those that don't. It's not about the type of offense or defense you run, its the execution of whatever it is you run. Coaches are reluctant to "try" something else if they don't practice it. If they can't execute what they practice the thought isn't going to be "lets switch to something we don't practice". We are losing because the effort hasn't been there and execution has been poor. The staff has done a poor job drilling the rules of their system into the players. It appears that coach wants this to be a high scoring team, not by turning the other team over, but by playing fast and shooting 3's. That's not going to change based on who we play. Some may not agree with it, but that seems to be what it is. Coach will try to bring in players that will play to his system. Since the program was void in talent when he took over, it will take more than one season and 7 games.

And for the record, I keep hearing we need a "X's and O's" coach. You don't think Mullin knows X's and O's? Speak to Norm Roberts about basketball, he knows his X's and O's. The staff needs a great teacher. That is what separates coaches. They all know X's and O's, but the really good ones know how to teach it. They know how to create a "curriculum" of drills that will address and improve areas of deficiencies that are identified and commit time to working on it. Norm's answers were always "we need to play tougher". I've heard Mullin say we need to do a better job putting a body on the opposing player to rebound the ball but is he actually spending significant time emphasizing that with drills in practice? I don't know. If he is then its the player and those elements will improve in time. Cant make that assessment watching games alone.   

         

Fair points. Mullin and his staff have a responsibility to prepare their team. They failed in epic proportion even for St.John's. I'm not sure he's going to here next season if the players can't improve. I'm still not sure what Mullin does. There were rumors going around that he had no idea how to coach. It's not a rumor anymore. So far, he's our worst coach yet.

Re: 1980s St.John's defense
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2016, 10:30:17 PM »
If Ahmed picks up his second foul in the first 3 minutes we can't compete. I hate zone. But I agree with some others. I would play zone for most of 1st half. And play tough defense in second half. Like Jarvis did.
i vote for fran, even though he showed his peletas
It's amazing that Jarvis is the best coach this program has had since Coach retired.
i vote for fran even though he showed his peletas
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 10:30:51 PM by valgoth »

TONYD3

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Re: 1980s St.John's defense
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2016, 11:30:41 PM »
If Ahmed picks up his second foul in the first 3 minutes we can't compete. I hate zone. But I agree with some others. I would play zone for most of 1st half. And play tough defense in second half. Like Jarvis did.
i vote for fran, even though he showed his peletas
It's amazing that Jarvis is the best coach this program has had since Coach retired.
i vote for fran even though he showed his peletas
I am 38. I loved the Jarvis teams. I used to park illegally sometimes in Jarvis's spot. He used to laugh at me. But his later teams were awful. Not saying Lavin was a great coach, but his 5 years were fun. The non sense was annoying. But we never won so much in my lifetime. I will never understand the hate for him. We won big games. (Maybe not enoug) we won at home. We beat our rivals.

Poison

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Re: 1980s St.John's defense
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2016, 12:21:05 AM »
If Ahmed picks up his second foul in the first 3 minutes we can't compete. I hate zone. But I agree with some others. I would play zone for most of 1st half. And play tough defense in second half. Like Jarvis did.
i vote for fran, even though he showed his peletas
It's amazing that Jarvis is the best coach this program has had since Coach retired.
i vote for fran even though he showed his peletas
I am 38. I loved the Jarvis teams. I used to park illegally sometimes in Jarvis's spot. He used to laugh at me. But his later teams were awful. Not saying Lavin was a great coach, but his 5 years were fun. The non sense was annoying. But we never won so much in my lifetime. I will never understand the hate for him. We won big games. (Maybe not enoug) we won at home. We beat our rivals.

Lavin was much more fun than Roberts. And he was sure as shot more fun than Mullin. I never thought the University could make a worse hire than Roberts, yet here we are.

SJUFAN

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Re: 1980s St.John's defense
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2016, 12:01:15 PM »
If Ahmed picks up his second foul in the first 3 minutes we can't compete. I hate zone. But I agree with some others. I would play zone for most of 1st half. And play tough defense in second half. Like Jarvis did.
i vote for fran, even though he showed his peletas
It's amazing that Jarvis is the best coach this program has had since Coach retired.
i vote for fran even though he showed his peletas
I am 38. I loved the Jarvis teams. I used to park illegally sometimes in Jarvis's spot. He used to laugh at me. But his later teams were awful. Not saying Lavin was a great coach, but his 5 years were fun. The non sense was annoying. But we never won so much in my lifetime. I will never understand the hate for him. We won big games. (Maybe not enoug) we won at home. We beat our rivals.

Lavin was much more fun than Roberts. And he was sure as shot more fun than Mullin. I never thought the University could make a worse hire than Roberts, yet here we are.

I think too many of you are pushing the panic button a little to quickly here. Are there some areas for concern? Perhaps but this was a 8-24 team last year. That's not because of coaching alone, the talent was not there. We added some good pieces but good enough to go from 1-17 in league play to 9-7, 8-8? 5-13 or 6-12 is realistic. Look what Dunlap did with Lavin's first recruiting class which was considered a top 5 class, they went 13-19 (6-12). We didn't bring in a top 5 class. Our best players have played 7 games of D1 basketball. I'm looking for progress. Next year I would like us to challenge for a above .500 record in league play but a .500 record may be realistic. Rebuilding a program is a 3-4 year process. Look at Tom Crean's record at Indiana his first 3 years, it wasn't because he can't coach, he didn't have players to put the ball through the net. That takes time, we need players to put the ball through the net.