Zach Brown - C - Miami, FL

Quote from: Poison on January 11, 2017, 05:02:03 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 11, 2017, 11:32:48 AM

Quote from: Foad on January 10, 2017, 11:25:23 AM

Quote from: Marillac on January 10, 2017, 10:31:22 AM

Okay, would you be fine with a slow 5 year rebuild while the staff only takes good students and citizens?

To be fair that was Norm's approach and he was a huge fan.

Norm went after some questionable recruits himself:

Doug Wiggins - committed to SJU then got kicked out of Uconn
Derwin Kitchen - Ineligible
Aaron Spears- Busted for drugs while at SJU
Qa'rran Calhoun - Knocked up girl and left first year
Sylvan Lamdesburg - drama and left after a year in UVA
Rob Thomas - Ineligible
DJ Kennedy - Had a kid when we recruited him and like 14 kids by graduation

Bite your tongue. DJ Kennedy is one of the best 4 year players we've ever had at St.John's.

Agreed. And he was a risk that paid off. Most coaches wouldn't look twice at a high schooler with a child....probably why he was available and willing to come to SJU. Believe me, I'm not knocking him. I was arrested before college and was a huge risk myself.

This thread is about taking questionable people. In no way was DJ a questionable person. Aaron Spears, yes. Derwin Kitchen, maybe, but not certainly. By and large Norm recruited good kids. That wasn't why he failed. He lost out on just about every top recruiting target, key players were always hurt, he had almost no continuity due to transfers and he was a clueless strategist 24/7.

Quote from: Foad on January 10, 2017, 09:13:50 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 10, 2017, 03:35:18 PM

Quote from: Foad on January 10, 2017, 12:24:43 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 10, 2017, 11:39:59 AM

Quote from: Foad on January 10, 2017, 11:25:23 AM

Quote from: Marillac on January 10, 2017, 10:31:22 AM

Okay, would you be fine with a slow 5 year rebuild while the staff only takes good students and citizens?

To be fair that was Norm's approach and he was a huge fan.

Norm's second class had a player guilty of the exact same crime that Zack Brown was arrested for. Yet, Aaron Spears was given a second chance by a guy who only recruits "good" kids. Let's be real, Norm took what he could get. Lance Stephenson's high school behavior wasn't the reason he didn't play for us. Clearly, Norm was.

What's a better outcome? Norm giving Aaron Spears a second chance and Spears rehabilitating himself or Rysheed Jordan ending up in prison for attempted murder after two years of Steve Lavin's mentoring?

When Lavin recruited Jordan there were perhaps some red flags, but the kid hadn't done anything wrong at the time. There wasn't a need for a second chance. He went down a dark path, but that has nothing to do with Steve Lavin, and everything to do with Rysheed Jordan.

So Steve Lavin recruits a player to school who you claim is a good kid and after two years under Lavin's wing the kid drops out and ends up in prison and that has nothing at all to do with Steve Lavin. That's seemingly odd, as Steve Lavin often said that there were more important things than winning and among those things especially was preparing his delicate charges for success later in life. He often said that he was a teacher first and a basketball coach second. 

Question: since Steve Lavin does not deserve blame for Jordan's transformation from good kid to felon does he deserve credit for D'Angelo Harrison's transformation from angry young man to model citizen or does that have everything to do with D'Angelo Harrison?

When a 12 year old is arrested for armed robbery, it's pretty easy to understand that he didn't end up in that situation on his own. Rysheed Jordan is a grown man. It's absolutely ridiculous to blame Steve Lavin for his arrest. From what I can tell, Lavin has a good relationship with many of his former players from both UCLA and St.John's.

If Lavin handed Jordan a loaded weapon, you'd have a damn good point.

Your evasion of the question is noted.

We Are SJU,  don't tell me the Elite 8 team wouldn't have played hard for Fran.  Fran was 10x the coach Jarvis was
  Jarvis just rolled the balls out. 

If Fran behaved like a professional or things weren't made public, he could've stayed here and we would have more than 1 Final Four banner.

That's debatable. I wasn't happy when they fired Fran, but who could complain after the 98-99 season? In 1996-1997, Fran won 14 games with Lopez and Zendon as upperclassmen + Minlend as a senior. Lost to Rutgers two times in one season. Lost to f'n LIU at Alumni Hall, too. He was no walk in the walk.

Jarvis clearly wasn't the answer for many reasons, but you can't look back on the body of work and say he wasn't a good coach. You are what your record is. The season Harrington fired him on Christmas Eve, we were terrible. He had given up. Before that, St.John's basketball may not have been great year in, year out, but we definitely had great moments, and seasons. No one can deny that.

Quote from: Poison on January 11, 2017, 04:56:22 PM

Quote from: Foad on January 10, 2017, 09:13:50 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 10, 2017, 03:35:18 PM

Quote from: Foad on January 10, 2017, 12:24:43 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 10, 2017, 11:39:59 AM

Quote from: Foad on January 10, 2017, 11:25:23 AM

Quote from: Marillac on January 10, 2017, 10:31:22 AM

Okay, would you be fine with a slow 5 year rebuild while the staff only takes good students and citizens?

To be fair that was Norm's approach and he was a huge fan.

Norm's second class had a player guilty of the exact same crime that Zack Brown was arrested for. Yet, Aaron Spears was given a second chance by a guy who only recruits "good" kids. Let's be real, Norm took what he could get. Lance Stephenson's high school behavior wasn't the reason he didn't play for us. Clearly, Norm was.

What's a better outcome? Norm giving Aaron Spears a second chance and Spears rehabilitating himself or Rysheed Jordan ending up in prison for attempted murder after two years of Steve Lavin's mentoring?

When Lavin recruited Jordan there were perhaps some red flags, but the kid hadn't done anything wrong at the time. There wasn't a need for a second chance. He went down a dark path, but that has nothing to do with Steve Lavin, and everything to do with Rysheed Jordan.

So Steve Lavin recruits a player to school who you claim is a good kid and after two years under Lavin's wing the kid drops out and ends up in prison and that has nothing at all to do with Steve Lavin. That's seemingly odd, as Steve Lavin often said that there were more important things than winning and among those things especially was preparing his delicate charges for success later in life. He often said that he was a teacher first and a basketball coach second. 

Question: since Steve Lavin does not deserve blame for Jordan's transformation from good kid to felon does he deserve credit for D'Angelo Harrison's transformation from angry young man to model citizen or does that have everything to do with D'Angelo Harrison?

When a 12 year old is arrested for armed robbery, it's pretty easy to understand that he didn't end up in that situation on his own. Rysheed Jordan is a grown man. It's absolutely ridiculous to blame Steve Lavin for his arrest. From what I can tell, Lavin has a good relationship with many of his former players from both UCLA and St.John's.

If Lavin handed Jordan a loaded weapon, you'd have a damn good point.

Your evasion of the question is noted.

Who the hell knows who is responsible for Harrison's maturity? Lavin never told us why he suspended the kid.

Who the hell knows who is responsible for Harrison's maturity? Lavin never told us why he suspended the kid.

If Jordan is solely responsible for what happened to Jordan, why would Harrison not be solely responsible for what happened to Harrison.

Fair argument.  Perhaps Harrison allowed himself to accept help from others and Jordan did not

We Are SJU,  don't tell me the Elite 8 team wouldn't have played hard for Fran.  Fran was 10x the coach Jarvis was
  Jarvis just rolled the balls out. 

If Fran behaved like a professional or things weren't made public, he could've stayed here and we would have more than 1 Final Four banner.

I liked Fran. Thought he would be Louie 2.0
Knew a player that played for Fran. Said everyone hated him. Jarvis for whatever reason was a perfect fit for that team in that they could just go out and play. Not sure Fran lets that happen.

Quote from: desco80 on January 11, 2017, 06:17:44 PM

We Are SJU,  don't tell me the Elite 8 team wouldn't have played hard for Fran.  Fran was 10x the coach Jarvis was
  Jarvis just rolled the balls out. 

If Fran behaved like a professional or things weren't made public, he could've stayed here and we would have more than 1 Final Four banner.

There's a heavy dose of irony in your post.   

I really hope that was intentional - hilarious.

Quote from: wpc77 on January 09, 2017, 02:32:10 PM

Quote from: Dave on January 09, 2017, 02:05:35 PM

Quote from: wpc77 on January 09, 2017, 01:40:21 PM

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on January 09, 2017, 01:33:57 PM

Quote from: wpc77 on January 09, 2017, 01:28:14 PM

So to recap, our lead 2016 big man recruit was a mental patient who punched a cop, and our lead 2017 big man recruit is a chronic criminal with academic issues.  WTF

We are not a top 50 program so we need to take chances on kids that top 25 programs pass up. Don't care if you are Lavin or Mullin we unfortunately need to take some risks when it comes to recruiting. Hopefully the staff has/had a plan B.

Mike Brey, to give one example, has (by and large) been "getting by" without "top 50 program" big men for over a decade.  Without scrapping the barrel with players who have checkered pasts

ND has landed NINE four star ranked kids in past 4 years and has had the same head coach for past 16 years. C'mon lets be realistic here.

I am talking about the big men only, Dave.  Here's who Brey hasnabbed in the past 4 years at the 4/5 (BTW, yes Brey has had very good results and a track record, but also the disadvantages of some of the worst hoops facilities in major conference hoops during his time and a campus in the middle of nowheresville):

Mooney - got him after he decomitted from Florida when Donovan bailed.  He was seen as a 3 star by most people.
Burns - got him over BC, the Hall and Rhody.  He was seen as a 3 star by most people.
Geben - got him over Maryland, Miami.  He was seen as a 3 star by some, 4 by others.
Colson - got him over FSU, Minnesota, Iowa St.  He was seen as a 3 star by most people.
Burgett - got him over Cincy and Iowa.   He was seen as a 3 star by most people.
Torres - got him over Lamar and Navy.  1 star recruit.  Package deal with Demetris Jackson.
Auguste - got him over WVU, GTech, Florida, Marquette. He was seen as a 4 star by most people.

So now you're saying you only need decent bigs when you have great guards?

No, I was referring to big men recruits, so was sticking with that topic.  But to branch out to guards and to stick with ND as an example, the only elite guard Brey has signed over past 4 years or so was Demetris Jackson.  Rest are 3 and borderline 4 starts.  He's focusing on, as Baldi said, smart players who can all handle the ball and shoot well coming in, with no baggage (bad grades are one thing and can be "fixed", baggae is what it is usually, and can be poisonous).

Quote from: Marillac on January 11, 2017, 05:37:27 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 11, 2017, 05:02:03 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 11, 2017, 11:32:48 AM

Quote from: Foad on January 10, 2017, 11:25:23 AM

Quote from: Marillac on January 10, 2017, 10:31:22 AM

Okay, would you be fine with a slow 5 year rebuild while the staff only takes good students and citizens?

To be fair that was Norm's approach and he was a huge fan.

Norm went after some questionable recruits himself:

Doug Wiggins - committed to SJU then got kicked out of Uconn
Derwin Kitchen - Ineligible
Aaron Spears- Busted for drugs while at SJU
Qa'rran Calhoun - Knocked up girl and left first year
Sylvan Lamdesburg - drama and left after a year in UVA
Rob Thomas - Ineligible
DJ Kennedy - Had a kid when we recruited him and like 14 kids by graduation

Bite your tongue. DJ Kennedy is one of the best 4 year players we've ever had at St.John's.

Agreed. And he was a risk that paid off. Most coaches wouldn't look twice at a high schooler with a child....probably why he was available and willing to come to SJU. Believe me, I'm not knocking him. I was arrested before college and was a huge risk myself.

This thread is about taking questionable people. In no way was DJ a questionable person. Aaron Spears, yes. Derwin Kitchen, maybe, but not certainly. By and large Norm recruited good kids. That wasn't why he failed. He lost out on just about every top recruiting target, key players were always hurt, he had almost no continuity due to transfers and he was a clueless strategist 24/7.

Disagree. How many babies do you see behind Duke and Nova benches? Can you imagine the distraction of a baby, babymama, and a 5 hour commute for a teenager trying to balance academics and d-1 athletics? DJ handled it all well but to say he wasn't a risk is crazy. Pitt pulled his offer for a reason even though his teammate Blair was a stud.

Quote from: Poison on January 11, 2017, 09:30:20 PM

Who the hell knows who is responsible for Harrison's maturity? Lavin never told us why he suspended the kid.

If Jordan is solely responsible for what happened to Jordan, why would Harrison not be solely responsible for what happened to Harrison.

Who suggested that Harrison wasn't solely responsible for actions? He didn't come to St.John's as a 12 year old.

Quote from: Poison on January 11, 2017, 08:56:43 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 11, 2017, 05:37:27 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 11, 2017, 05:02:03 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 11, 2017, 11:32:48 AM

Quote from: Foad on January 10, 2017, 11:25:23 AM

Quote from: Marillac on January 10, 2017, 10:31:22 AM

Okay, would you be fine with a slow 5 year rebuild while the staff only takes good students and citizens?

To be fair that was Norm's approach and he was a huge fan.

Norm went after some questionable recruits himself:

Doug Wiggins - committed to SJU then got kicked out of Uconn
Derwin Kitchen - Ineligible
Aaron Spears- Busted for drugs while at SJU
Qa'rran Calhoun - Knocked up girl and left first year
Sylvan Lamdesburg - drama and left after a year in UVA
Rob Thomas - Ineligible
DJ Kennedy - Had a kid when we recruited him and like 14 kids by graduation

Bite your tongue. DJ Kennedy is one of the best 4 year players we've ever had at St.John's.

Agreed. And he was a risk that paid off. Most coaches wouldn't look twice at a high schooler with a child....probably why he was available and willing to come to SJU. Believe me, I'm not knocking him. I was arrested before college and was a huge risk myself.

This thread is about taking questionable people. In no way was DJ a questionable person. Aaron Spears, yes. Derwin Kitchen, maybe, but not certainly. By and large Norm recruited good kids. That wasn't why he failed. He lost out on just about every top recruiting target, key players were always hurt, he had almost no continuity due to transfers and he was a clueless strategist 24/7.

Disagree. How many babies do you see behind Duke and Nova benches? Can you imagine the distraction of a baby, babymama, and a 5 hour commute for a teenager trying to balance academics and d-1 athletics? DJ handled it all well but to say he wasn't a risk is crazy. Pitt pulled his offer for a reason even though his teammate Blair was a stud.

It's crazy to say that DJ wasn't a risk? Actually, it's not. It's crazy to think that any University or basketball fan has a right to judge DJ Kennedy's personal life.

Speaking of Duke, go Google the response that Elton Brand had for a fan who ridiculed him for leaving after two seasons. It wasn't directed at you, but maybe it could have been.

Quote from: Foad on January 12, 2017, 07:41:59 AM

Quote from: Poison on January 11, 2017, 09:30:20 PM

Who the hell knows who is responsible for Harrison's maturity? Lavin never told us why he suspended the kid.

If Jordan is solely responsible for what happened to Jordan, why would Harrison not be solely responsible for what happened to Harrison.

Who suggested that Harrison wasn't solely responsible for actions? He didn't come to St.John's as a 12 year old.

Are you thick? I'm asking why Lavin is not responsible for Jordan failing and yet gets credit for Harrison's succeeding. It's a very simple question.

Quote from: Marillac on January 12, 2017, 02:45:21 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 11, 2017, 08:56:43 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 11, 2017, 05:37:27 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 11, 2017, 05:02:03 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 11, 2017, 11:32:48 AM

Quote from: Foad on January 10, 2017, 11:25:23 AM

Quote from: Marillac on January 10, 2017, 10:31:22 AM

Okay, would you be fine with a slow 5 year rebuild while the staff only takes good students and citizens?

To be fair that was Norm's approach and he was a huge fan.

Norm went after some questionable recruits himself:

Doug Wiggins - committed to SJU then got kicked out of Uconn
Derwin Kitchen - Ineligible
Aaron Spears- Busted for drugs while at SJU
Qa'rran Calhoun - Knocked up girl and left first year
Sylvan Lamdesburg - drama and left after a year in UVA
Rob Thomas - Ineligible
DJ Kennedy - Had a kid when we recruited him and like 14 kids by graduation

Bite your tongue. DJ Kennedy is one of the best 4 year players we've ever had at St.John's.

Agreed. And he was a risk that paid off. Most coaches wouldn't look twice at a high schooler with a child....probably why he was available and willing to come to SJU. Believe me, I'm not knocking him. I was arrested before college and was a huge risk myself.

This thread is about taking questionable people. In no way was DJ a questionable person. Aaron Spears, yes. Derwin Kitchen, maybe, but not certainly. By and large Norm recruited good kids. That wasn't why he failed. He lost out on just about every top recruiting target, key players were always hurt, he had almost no continuity due to transfers and he was a clueless strategist 24/7.

Disagree. How many babies do you see behind Duke and Nova benches? Can you imagine the distraction of a baby, babymama, and a 5 hour commute for a teenager trying to balance academics and d-1 athletics? DJ handled it all well but to say he wasn't a risk is crazy. Pitt pulled his offer for a reason even though his teammate Blair was a stud.

It's crazy to say that DJ wasn't a risk? Actually, it's not. It's crazy to think that any University or basketball fan has a right to judge DJ Kennedy's personal life.

Speaking of Duke, go Google the response that Elton Brand had for a fan who ridiculed him for leaving after two seasons. It wasn't directed at you, but maybe it could have been.

Wow, you are a f*cking nice person.

(1) You called recruits "actual criminals" in this very thread.

(2) If it's so crazy for a fan to have the right to judge a player's personal life, please explain why you called Eric King and Willie Shaw "lazy, arrogant thugs who simply weren't interested in working on their games"   http://johnnyjungle.com/forum/index.php?topic=9975.msg258410#msg258410 

(3) Surely you understand the difference between acknowledging risk factors and judging someone's character. Some kids with good backgrounds will do bad things and some kids with red flags will be great teammates and people.

(4) WTF do the reactions of Duke fans to Brand declaring have to do with backgrounds of Coach K's recruits?

I don't remember ever hearing a peep in terms of issues with Kennedy during his recruitment or 4 years here at St. John's. Seemed like the model student-athlete, turned professional. Heart, hustle, defense. all things I wish our current team had.

I don't remember ever hearing a peep in terms of issues with Kennedy during his recruitment or 4 years here at St. John's. Seemed like the model student-athlete, turned professional. Heart, hustle, defense. all things I wish our current team had.

Agreed. He is one of my all-time favorite players. What that idiot doesn't get in the midst of his white knight act is the difference between judging and acknowledging risk factors. Coach K doesn't recruit the kids DJ or myself were even though we both turned out fine.  The irony is that Scarsdale is literally the most judgmental a rear of a donkey on this site and is perfectly okay with labeling any non coastal city a dump and its inhabitants misfortunate gomers.

Quote from: Poison on January 12, 2017, 08:24:04 PM

Quote from: Foad on January 12, 2017, 07:41:59 AM

Quote from: Poison on January 11, 2017, 09:30:20 PM

Who the hell knows who is responsible for Harrison's maturity? Lavin never told us why he suspended the kid.

If Jordan is solely responsible for what happened to Jordan, why would Harrison not be solely responsible for what happened to Harrison.

Who suggested that Harrison wasn't solely responsible for actions? He didn't come to St.John's as a 12 year old.

Are you thick? I'm asking why Lavin is not responsible for Jordan failing and yet gets credit for Harrison's succeeding. It's a very simple question.

It appears you're thick. Forget it. Have a nice Friday.

Quote from: redstorm212 on January 13, 2017, 02:29:17 AM

I don't remember ever hearing a peep in terms of issues with Kennedy during his recruitment or 4 years here at St. John's. Seemed like the model student-athlete, turned professional. Heart, hustle, defense. all things I wish our current team had.

Agreed. He is one of my all-time favorite players. What that idiot doesn't get in the midst of his white knight act is the difference between judging and acknowledging risk factors. Coach K doesn't recruit the kids DJ or myself were even though we both turned out fine.  The irony is that Scarsdale is literally the most judgmental a rear of a donkey on this site and is perfectly okay with labeling any non coastal city a dump and its inhabitants misfortunate gomers.

Correct. You are dirt under my fingernails you confused child.

Quote from: Foad on January 12, 2017, 09:31:49 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 12, 2017, 08:24:04 PM

Quote from: Foad on January 12, 2017, 07:41:59 AM

Quote from: Poison on January 11, 2017, 09:30:20 PM

Who the hell knows who is responsible for Harrison's maturity? Lavin never told us why he suspended the kid.

If Jordan is solely responsible for what happened to Jordan, why would Harrison not be solely responsible for what happened to Harrison.

Who suggested that Harrison wasn't solely responsible for actions? He didn't come to St.John's as a 12 year old.

Are you thick? I'm asking why Lavin is not responsible for Jordan failing and yet gets credit for Harrison's succeeding. It's a very simple question.

It appears you're thick. Forget it. Have a nice Friday.

Yes, I trapped you like a rat didn't I. In future remember that it's hard to appear dignified when you announce that you're flouncing off.

Quote from: Marillac on January 13, 2017, 03:22:58 AM

Quote from: redstorm212 on January 13, 2017, 02:29:17 AM

I don't remember ever hearing a peep in terms of issues with Kennedy during his recruitment or 4 years here at St. John's. Seemed like the model student-athlete, turned professional. Heart, hustle, defense. all things I wish our current team had.

Agreed. He is one of my all-time favorite players. What that idiot doesn't get in the midst of his white knight act is the difference between judging and acknowledging risk factors. Coach K doesn't recruit the kids DJ or myself were even though we both turned out fine.  The irony is that Scarsdale is literally the most judgmental a rear of a donkey on this site and is perfectly okay with labeling any non coastal city a dump and its inhabitants misfortunate gomers.

Correct. You are dirt under my fingernails you confused child.

Are you still judging?

Quote from: Marillac on January 13, 2017, 03:22:58 AM

Quote from: redstorm212 on January 13, 2017, 02:29:17 AM

I don't remember ever hearing a peep in terms of issues with Kennedy during his recruitment or 4 years here at St. John's. Seemed like the model student-athlete, turned professional. Heart, hustle, defense. all things I wish our current team had.

Agreed. He is one of my all-time favorite players. What that idiot doesn't get in the midst of his white knight act is the difference between judging and acknowledging risk factors. Coach K doesn't recruit the kids DJ or myself were even though we both turned out fine.  The irony is that Scarsdale is literally the most judgmental a rear of a donkey on this site and is perfectly okay with labeling any non coastal city a dump and its inhabitants misfortunate gomers.

Correct. You are dirt under my fingernails you confused child.

Why do you have the remains of confused children under your fingernails? What did you do to me in your twisted hypo, Ed Gein? You went from zero to windowless van and a puppy way too quick.