6th Man of St. John's Basketball
St. John's Red Storm => Recruiting => 2020 Class => Topic started by: QuanMan on September 30, 2019, 02:16:08 PM
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@daves_joint
St. John’s still has a chance at recruiting yet landing another big in @max_amada, a 6-foot-10 senior at @OSLBasketball
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI6nMuiNO44
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SJUBB Takes
@RedStormReport
I have heard from several sources that the 2020 class is not finished. Expect 1-2, possibly even 3 more commits. Bigs to keep an eye on: Max Amadasun, Josh Gray, Cliff Omoruyi, Ahmad Rand. #sjubb #detes
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I see St. John’s getting two more players, Christian Guess and Max A.
I also do not see McGriff, Earlington, and. Caraher finishing their career at St. John’s.
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I see St. John’s getting two more players, Christian Guess and Max A.
I also do not see McGriff, Earlington, and. Caraher finishing their career at St. John’s.
What makes you say that McGriff, Earlington and Caraher?
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What makes you say that McGriff, Earlington and Caraher?
McGriff there will be too many bigger guards that can play PG, in Posh, Wusu, and names that will pop up in 2020 and McGriff will get overshadowed, and I’ve heard that Earlington is a little slow for the Fastest 40 but who knows, he might come into it. Caraher is a just a name I don’t hear of much and numbers are going to have to work their way out because they are going for 2-3 more spots in 2020 and that means 2-3 transfers and some attrition which in this case isn’t a bad thing.
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McGriff there will be too many bigger guards that can play PG, in Posh, Wusu, and names that will pop up in 2020 and McGriff will get overshadowed, and I’ve heard that Earlington is a little slow for the Fastest 40 but who knows, he might come into it. Caraher is a just a name I don’t hear of much and numbers are going to have to work their way out because they are going for 2-3 more spots in 2020 and that means 2-3 transfers and some attrition which in this case isn’t a bad thing.
Caraher won the ROY as a freshman. That seems like a guy we’d like to keep around. McGriff and Earlington, IDK, but Earlington in limited time was more aggressive than Clark and Keita and probably should have been given some of their minutes.
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Caraher won the ROY as a freshman. That seems like a guy we’d like to keep around.
So did Mikey Dixon. Some guys can handle the bump in level, some guys can't. We'll see which camp Caraher falls in soon enough
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So did Mikey Dixon. Some guys can handle the bump in level, some guys can't. We'll see which camp Caraher falls in soon enough
You don’t think Dixon could handle the BE? I remember him being sorely missed after he left.
If you said Alpha Bangura, I’d see your point. Speaking of, half the time, that’s who Heron reminds me of.
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Before speculating on any potential transfer, let's see who on the roster fits into this system first.
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I see St. John’s getting two more players, Christian Guess and Max A.
I also do not see McGriff, Earlington, and. Caraher finishing their career at St. John’s.
It's why McGriff was a questionable first recruit. I'm surprised Earlington is even still here but part of me still intrigued by him as a project hybrid small power forward. As for Caraher I think it will all depend on how he's deployed. He's a heady tough player and I think he'll be a good glue guy off the bench in spot minutes. Also played a big role in getting Steere here as well as they were teammates in travel ball.
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Max played with Wusu in travel ball. Clearly building pipelines with Long Island Lightning which isn't a bad thing BUT they are the weakest of 3 Nike teams in NYC. PSA Cardinals and Rens have been considerably more talented for better part of this decade.
I'd strongly prefer Cliff Omoruyi over Amadasun. He also played on LI Lightning part time was also on Under Armour's WE R1.
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You don’t think Dixon could handle the BE? I remember him being sorely missed after he left.
It was clear to anybody watching that Dixon couldn't handle the Big East. That's why he played a grand total of 8 minutes in the 2 Big East games he was around for. He would have been nice to have to eat some minutes here and there because we didn't have much depth, but he was far from sorely missed.
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It was clear to anybody watching that Dixon couldn't handle the Big East. That's why he played a grand total of 8 minutes in the 2 Big East games he was around for. He would have been nice to have to eat some minutes here and there because we didn't have much depth, but he was far from sorely missed.
I disagree. I think this team really could have used him during Big East play. I think his lack of effort defensively is what limited his minutes but he would have been a capable spark plug.
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I disagree. I think this team really could have used him during Big East play. I think his lack of effort defensively is what limited his minutes but he would have been a capable spark plug.
It wasn't lack of effort that was the problem, it was lack of basketball IQ and the game was simply too fast for him on both ends of the floor. Interesting you'd stick up for him, a guy who proved he couldn't hack it at this level but are quick to dismiss Anderson's guys before giving them a chance.
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It wasn't lack of effort that was the problem, it was lack of basketball IQ and the game was simply too fast for him on both ends of the floor. Interesting you'd stick up for him, a guy who proved he couldn't hack it at this level but are quick to dismiss Anderson's guys before giving them a chance.
I'm not sure he proved he couldn't hack anything. I don't think he got the chance to. He played a total of 7 min in Big East action. Up to then he was hitting 3 pointers at a 43% clip. We don't beat VCU or Cal without him.
I think he was a solid bench guy who could score and handle the ball when needed. We needed that in conference play especially when Shamorie was on the mend.
He had his deficiencies but the last staff was too quick to dismiss him instead of convincing him to stay. It was a costly mistake.
Instead of Dixon we now have Rutherford a career 25% 3 pt shooter who is a cast off from Florida Atlantic and a bad Monmouth team. I'd argue that Grand Canyon University has more talented incoming backcourt than us.
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Dixon could have helped. But transfers are more akin in my view to bailing at the first sign of adversity, and so when you rely so heavily on that you are setting yourself up. Had we recruited in a more balanced fashion we wouldn’t have had as much of a revolving door. Had we had other recruiters that would have helped. Had our primary “recruiter” not cared as much about having his name in the papers or another recruiter getting credit, that would have helped too.
I wasn’t shocked when Dixon bounced because when you take on kids who left another school for various reasons you shouldn’t be shocked they bail again when things are going their way.
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Dixon could have helped. But transfers are more akin in my view to bailing at the first sign of adversity, and so when you rely so heavily on that you are setting yourself up. Had we recruited in a more balanced fashion we wouldn’t have had as much of a revolving door. Had we had other recruiters that would have helped. Had our primary “recruiter” not cared as much about having his name in the papers or another recruiter getting credit, that would have helped too.
I wasn’t shocked when Dixon bounced because when you take on kids who left another school for various reasons you shouldn’t be shocked they bail again when things are going their way.
While I agree with you on us being too transient I disagree in your theory of guys leaving because they left before. Statistically it's more unlikely that they leave twice. I also think it was necessary to get a certain amount of transfers to fix scholarship imbalance leftover from Norm Roberts however I wish our last class had more true freshman.
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Have no issue with a certain amount of transfers. They fix the point you raised on roster balance and a school like ours needs to rely on transfers/JUCOs to some extent. Your statistics makes sense intuitively and I don't doubt you're right, but there is also level of nuance that goes towards recruiting those kids and you need to be wary of the risk they'll grow unhappy again and move elsewhere. We were far too reliant the last few years in this regard; that's a reflection on Mullin not running the program properly and a reflection on the guy recruiting them.
Had no issue with taking transfers to fill the roster Mully's first year, just as I have no issue with Anderson doing it now. Had no issue with Clark or Simon either given their pedigree and, again, the state of the roster at this time. By year 3 and 4 we should have sought balance in recruiting and failed massively in that respect. Of course you taking a Heron, but far too much otherwise the last few years when we could have been balancing classes and acquiring talent through other channels.
While I agree with you on us being too transient I disagree in your theory of guys leaving because they left before. Statistically it's more unlikely that they leave twice. I also think it was necessary to get a certain amount of transfers to fix scholarship imbalance leftover from Norm Roberts however I wish our last class had more true freshman.
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Committed to Pitt
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Committed to Pitt
Capel suggests Anderson to Cragg, which suggestion is deemed a home run by Krweweenski and shortly thereafter Capel starts poaching recruits from Anderson's backyard. It like an O Henry short story, nearly.
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Capel suggests Anderson to Cragg, which suggestion is deemed a home run by Krweweenski and shortly thereafter Capel starts poaching recruits from Anderson's backyard. It like an O Henry short story, nearly.
And they got the better Champagnie brother. Also hot on RJ Davis who would have been my preferred option over Posh Alexander.
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Reminds me of the days Calipari and Calhoun would endorse Norm Roberts, saying what a great job he was doing. Then they would poach and cherry pick all the NYC talent.
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And they got the better Champagnie brother. Also hot on RJ Davis who would have been my preferred option over Posh Alexander.
They also been recruiting them longer than CMA. It doesn’t matter what one prefers if RJ Davis didn’t want to come to SJU.
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They also been recruiting them longer than CMA. It doesn’t matter what one prefers if RJ Davis didn’t want to come to SJU.
Personally I believe getting inferior kids and good coaching is > getting talented kids and poor coaching
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Personally I believe getting inferior kids and good coaching is > getting talented kids and poor coaching
I think the greatest is getting talented kids and good coaching
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I think the greatest is getting talented kids and good coaching
Absolutely, when was the last time SJU had that ?
Early years of Mike Jarvis
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Absolutely, when was the last time SJU had that ?
Early years of Mike Jarvis
I can't say much about Jarvis coaching acumen but it's been a long time unless you want to count Mike Dunlap.
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Personally I believe getting inferior kids and good coaching is > getting talented kids and poor coaching
I believe CMA is building it the right way. Bring in kids who he believes is talented enough who want to be here, opposed to holding out for higher rated players only to lose out.
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I don’t know. It’s a little early to settle for marginal players. I gave MA a complete pass for ‘19 ,but would have liked to see the ’20 recruits ranked higher. It’s not that I have a problem w any individual recruits., but I am disappointed w the aggregate. Would have liked to see a couple of top 100 mixed in. If Figgy leaves, I don’t think we have 1 player for next year in the top 150. Hopefully a healthy Posh will elevate in the rankings. I also like the Cole signing. We will see how this all plays out.
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Shades of Chris Taft.
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And they got the better Champagnie brother.
When Pitt got Justin Champagnie our Coach was Chris Mullin.
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Personally I believe getting inferior kids and good coaching is > getting talented kids and poor coaching
Two questions:
1. Can you name some high major programs or coaches that have had sustained success recruiting inferior players?
2. If good coaching and inferior players is a recipe for success why do so many elite coaches risk their livelihoods paying for highly ranked players?
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Two questions:
1. Can you name some high major programs or coaches that have had sustained success recruiting inferior players?
2. If good coaching and inferior players is a recipe for success why do so many elite coaches risk their livelihoods paying for highly ranked players?
I don't generally disagree with you on this but plenty of teams perform better with less talent than those that don't. Look at the 2 teams in the national championship game last season. Virginia and Texas Tech have gotten good players but they are certainly not the schools you would think of when when asked which CBB heavyweights typically get the best recruits year in and year out. Tony Bennett and Chris Beard get good recruits who fit what they want to do, develop them at a high level and coach circles around most other coaches.
Now, I don't think the players Mike Anderson has gotten are close to the level that Virginia and Texas Tech have gotten, nor do I think he is near the coach that either of those two guys are. But that's essentially the formula he's trying to duplicate at a smaller scale. Recruit guys that fit what he wants, develop them and win with them as upperclassmen. I have no idea if he'll be successful doing this here.
The answer to your second question is easy. Because those "elite" coaches aren't as elite as you think. The players they pay for make them elite. Give those coaches the same amount of talent as everybody else and they'd be as average as everybody else.
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I believe CMA is building it the right way. Bring in kids who he believes is talented enough who want to be here, opposed to holding out for higher rated players only to lose out.
Norm Roberts did that too.
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I don't generally disagree with you on this but plenty of teams perform better with less talent than those that don't. Look at the 2 teams in the national championship game last season. Virginia and Texas Tech have gotten good players but they are certainly not the schools you would think of when when asked which CBB heavyweights typically get the best recruits year in and year out. Tony Bennett and Chris Beard get good recruits who fit what they want to do, develop them at a high level and coach circles around most other coaches.
Now, I don't think the players Mike Anderson has gotten are close to the level that Virginia and Texas Tech have gotten, nor do I think he is near the coach that either of those two guys are. But that's essentially the formula he's trying to duplicate at a smaller scale. Recruit guys that fit what he wants, develop them and win with them as upperclassmen. I have no idea if he'll be successful doing this here.
The answer to your second question is easy. Because those "elite" coaches aren't as elite as you think. The players they pay for make them elite. Give those coaches the same amount of talent as everybody else and they'd be as average as everybody else.
I'm confused because Virginia's core was full of talented players. Kyle Guy was a McDonalds All-American. Ty Jerome and DeAndre Hunter were top 50/100 players. Braxton Key, Mamadi Diakite were both top 50.
If you want to sprinkle in an underrated guy like Kihei Clark to that group that can work but you can't have a team full of Kihei Clarks.
Texas Tech is somewhat of a better example but guys like Jarrett Culver are rare and don't happen often.
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Norm Roberts did that too.
Norm couldn’t coach. That was made obvious after the coaching change. Can’t compare the two.
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Norm Roberts did that too.
Awesome comparison Dave, hold tight while I eviscerate you
Norm Roberts Record before becoming SJU HC - 24-84 (22.22%) 0 Postseason
CMA Record before becoming SJU HC - 369-200 (64.9%) 9 NCAA's, 1 Elite 8
(https://images.rapgenius.com/43f95c911149ee7c7cba7463d96178b0.500x456x1.jpg)
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Fellas we're talking recruiting. I'm not sure how many times it has to be pointed out that Mike Anderson is a very good basketball coach who has a very good track record.
It's very fair to say Norm Roberts and Mike Anderson both brought in lower rated perhaps under the radar talent.
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I'm confused because Virginia's core was full of talented players. Kyle Guy was a McDonalds All-American. Ty Jerome and DeAndre Hunter were top 50/100 players. Braxton Key, Mamadi Diakite were both top 50.
If you want to sprinkle in an underrated guy like Kihei Clark to that group that can work but you can't have a team full of Kihei Clarks.
Texas Tech is somewhat of a better example but guys like Jarrett Culver are rare and don't happen often.
Fair enough. Virginia had a solid recruiting class in 2016 and then didn't have a top 30 class the 2 years leading up to their championship. Like I said, Virginia had good recruits but not 31-3 in the ACC followed by national championship level recruits.
Beard has been winning with inferior talent his whole career. Yeah, Jarrett Culver is rare but he did the same thing a year before turning Zhaire Smith from a 3 star recruit to a 1st round pick in just one season.
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I don't generally disagree with you on this but plenty of teams perform better with less talent than those that don't. Look at the 2 teams in the national championship game last season. Virginia and Texas Tech have gotten good players but they are certainly not the schools you would think of when when asked which CBB heavyweights typically get the best recruits year in and year out. Tony Bennett and Chris Beard get good recruits who fit what they want to do, develop them at a high level and coach circles around most other coaches.
Coaches like Chris Beard or say Brad Stevens (Virginia had five top 75 recruits last year and the lowest rated one was a lottery pick) are few and far between. I'm not saying it's impossible for inferior talent to compete perenially on a national stage, but it happens somewhere between rarely and never. (Pete Carill was the best coach I ever saw and he didn't win anything. Whereas Jim Boeheim's a nitwit who's won 1000 games.) College blue bloods recruting elite talent and competing perennially despite being coached by numbskulls is the norm.
Now, I don't think the players Mike Anderson has gotten are close to the level that Virginia and Texas Tech have gotten, nor do I think he is near the coach that either of those two guys are. But that's essentially the formula he's trying to duplicate at a smaller scale. Recruit guys that fit what he wants, develop them and win with them as upperclassmen. I have no idea if he'll be successful doing this here.
If they wanted to win every four years they should never have fired Lavin.
The answer to your second question is easy. Because those "elite" coaches aren't as elite as you think. The players they pay for make them elite. Give those coaches the same amount of talent as everybody else and they'd be as average as everybody else.
By "elite" coaches I meant coaches whose programs are consistently in the national conversation - dook, uk, kansas, michigan - but the two coaches I was thinking of specifically were Pitino and Larry Brown, both of whom are elite in that they've won everywhere and both of whom routinely committed what otherwise would be felonies to sign elite players. Anyway if elite coaches wouldn't be elite without elite players how does that support OP's position that inferior kids and good coaching is > getting talented kids and poor coaching?
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Shades of Chris Taft.
Yes and a ton of those 6'0 point guards from St. Rays I think,
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Fellas we're talking recruiting. I'm not sure how many times it has to be pointed out that Mike Anderson is a very good basketball coach who has a very good track record.
It's very fair to say Norm Roberts and Mike Anderson both brought in lower rated perhaps under the radar talent.
Norm would have ruined every recruit he landed at St.John’s if not for Lavin and his staff. Players haven’t improved under the last three coaches.
As always, nothing has been harder to achieve at St.John’s than player development. That’s what CMA should be judged on even as early as this season. Regardless of the time constraints, CMA picked players to come here now. We all should see why beyond just filling out the roster.
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Yes and a ton of those 6'0 point guards from St. Rays I think,
Krauser, Benhanin and Ramon owned us.
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Fellas we're talking recruiting. I'm not sure how many times it has to be pointed out that Mike Anderson is a very good basketball coach who has a very good track record.
It's very fair to say Norm Roberts and Mike Anderson both brought in lower rated perhaps under the radar talent.
My point is you can’t say the recruits Norm brought in were “marginal” based on the success of the team when a new staff took over. That was the best season SJU has had this millennium. It’s wasn’t just due to coaching.
You say the recruits CMA has brought in are marginal, I say let the results dictate that, not their perspective rankings out of HS. A lot will depend on the coach and I believe CMA is up for the task.
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Taft, as I recall, was ranked much higher than Max, not that I liked missing out on the latter.
Yes and a ton of those 6'0 point guards from St. Rays I think,
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You are right, of course, in that getting really good players is the key to sustained success, and that rankings are very often a good measuring stick for how good a kid will be at the college level. Dave is also right in that the goal should be to get really talented kids and coach them up.
Given when he was hired and where we are as a program, I'm going to reserve judgment on Anderson's recruiting ability. Perhaps some of these kids end up better than the rankings predict, through coaching, player development and the staff's ability to find some diamonds in the rough. Perhaps we start getting higher level kids in the next class now that the staff has more time to develop relationships and won't be "late to the game".
Willard's been at the Hall for almost a decade and was terrible for half that period. Yes, he sold his soul and God knows what else to get Whitehead/Angel in the door, which turned things around and got him an extension. But if you look at their squad now, ranked consensus top 15 in the country, I believe it only has 2/3 kids who were ranked in the top 100 out of HS (Powell, Cale and the FSU transfer, and Powell/Cale were closer to 100 than 50 as I recall). They've had success the past few years developing kids who were not rated as highly as the kind of recruits we'd want, making sure they are happy and stay through their junior/senior years so as to receive maximum benefit of that development. Anderson's coaching resume is better than Willard's, and so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the staff can develop the kids they've brought on into solid contributors, with some on-court success and additional recruiting investment time leading to us getting some more highly ranked kids in future classes.
Two questions:
1. Can you name some high major programs or coaches that have had sustained success recruiting inferior players?
2. If good coaching and inferior players is a recipe for success why do so many elite coaches risk their livelihoods paying for highly ranked players?
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My point is you can’t say the recruits Norm brought in were “marginal” based on the success of the team when a new staff took over. That was the best season SJU has had this millennium. It’s wasn’t just due to coaching.
You say the recruits CMA has brought in are marginal, I say let the results dictate that, not their perspective rankings out of HS. A lot will depend on the coach and I believe CMA is up for the task.
I think there are some parallels but I wasn't talking about DJ Kennedy, Paris Horne, and co. Now some of these guys didn't pan out but overall the disparity isn't far.
Granted Anderson is superior coach but the talent gap will be significant group to make up.
https://247sports.com/college/saint-johns/Season/2004-Basketball/Commits/
https://247sports.com/college/saint-johns/Season/2005-Basketball/Commits/
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Given when he was hired and where we are as a program, I'm going to reserve judgment on Anderson's recruiting ability. Perhaps some of these kids end up better than the rankings predict, through coaching, player development and the staff's ability to find some diamonds in the rough. Perhaps we start getting higher level kids in the next class now that the staff has more time to develop relationships and won't be "late to the game".
Obviously Coach Third Choice deserves a pass for this year and maybe even for next. Where the problem might arise is if he has so much faith in his system that he thinks it doesn't matter what players he plugs into it. Because there are other coaches in the league who have systems that have had more success than CTC had at Arkansas and if they get elite players and CTC doesn't CTC will be as successful at SJ as he was at Arkansas, which is about as successful as Mullin and Lavin were over about the same time frame and SJ fired those guys for not being successful enough. And then we're starting over again.
Willard's been at the Hall for almost a decade and was terrible for half that period. Yes, he sold his soul and God knows what else to get Whitehead/Angel in the door, which turned things around and got him an extension. But if you look at their squad now, ranked consensus top 15 in the country, I believe it only has 2/3 kids who were ranked in the top 100 out of HS (Powell, Cale and the FSU transfer, and Powell/Cale were closer to 100 than 50 as I recall). They've had success the past few years developing kids who were not rated as highly as the kind of recruits we'd want, making sure they are happy and stay through their junior/senior years so as to receive maximum benefit of that development. Anderson's coaching resume is better than Willard's, and so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the staff can develop the kids they've brought on into solid contributors, with some on-court success and additional recruiting investment time leading to us getting some more highly ranked kids in future classes.
What Willard's success demonstrates to me is how badly the administration has mismanaged the program. Willard was hired the same year as Lavin. Lavin went 92-72 in five years with two NCAA appearances and got fired. Willard went 82-81 (with one winning season, which is one fewer than Norm had) and got extended and now they're in the national conversation, at least in the preseason. If that does not demonstrate the importance of continuity, what does.
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My point is you can’t say the recruits Norm brought in were “marginal” based on the success of the team when a new staff took over. That was the best season SJU has had this millennium. It’s wasn’t just due to coaching.
You say the recruits CMA has brought in are marginal, I say let the results dictate that, not their perspective rankings out of HS. A lot will depend on the coach and I believe CMA is up for the task.
Anyone but Norm Roberts can win with 11 upperclassmen.