6th Man of St. John's Basketball
St. John's Red Storm => In The Jungle... => Topic started by: Tiger on May 01, 2014, 07:18:53 AM
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It seems SJU coaches make contact with a lot of high school ball players, but never offer early. The approach is different from Kentucky (recruit and offer all (only) top-5 kids, every year) and Providence (recruit and offer every top-100 kid). What are the consequences of this approach?
Impact on Student athletes:
1) If there was a coaching change, the student might have to work to get a release.
2) The students can use their official visits to visit other schools
3) The students can see how the current team develops and project how much playing time they would get, rather than project two or three years down the road.
4) The student sees what other students/players are going to SJU or leaving SJU.
Impact on SJU:
1) Coaching staff appears to care about the kids and will only recruit kids that will play
2) Staff can better evaluate needs of future teams based on the latest development of existing players and the overall team.
3) By being so secretive, there is no buzz surrounding the program.
4) Kids on the current SJU team don’t have a sense they are being recruited over.
5) After being courted by other coaches, the highest rated student athletes will commit elsewhere.
6) This should leave SJU with a team of student athletes that have been passed over by other teams and coaches. These students may have deficiencies in their academics or athletic backgrounds.
7) Can create a feeling of desperation among fans and coaches.
8) Opposing coaches can tell kids ‘Why are you considering SJU? No one is going there.’
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The point of this thread..?
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One man's analysis shared for consideration by all. Does a thread need a "point"?
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The argument is that he doesn't offer an opinion on if this is a good or bad strategy. Is there something that SJU could be doing better or what SJU is doing wrong. At best he is saying that the sky is blue ...ok what is the point. Not saying he is right or wrong but what is the point.
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The point of my initial thread was get some input on how the SJU recruiting strategy works. Like most posters, I know nothing about recruiting. I have never recruited a student athlete, nor have I been recruited. Coach Lavin does this for a living, and after several years of recruiting, his recruiting plan should be discernible. The plan that I see seems flawed. Contrary to what other schools do, Lavin seems to focus on a few four or five star kids. The fatal flaw in this strategy is that you run the risk of not getting any commitments, which exacerbates the perception problem (Why does a top kid go to SJU if no other kids go there?)
Look at some other schools as examples:
(Data is from Verbal Commits. While this data may not be the most current and accurate, it is readily available.)
2015 Recruiting:
Georgetown: 19 offers for 5 spots (4:1) – 1 commitment
Villanova: 10 offers for 3 spots (3:1) – 2 commitments
Providence: 24 Offers for 3 spots (8:1) – 1 commitment
St. Johns: 12 Offers for 6 spots (2:1) – 0 commitments
Maybe the staff should continue to offer the four star kids, but also chase a few 3 star kids?
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One man's analysis shared for consideration by all. Does a thread need a "point"?
Well lets go with his main point in the first part - he mentions getting involved early and offering either Top 5 or Top 100 kids...
Then is the second part he mentions consequences on student athletes and says they will have to get releases... that is 100% incorrect. Offering scholarships has no impact to the player or the school and can have no negative impact to the student athlete. Now if the player signed a LOI, it would be a different situation.
So again, re-read the entire initial post and try to explain what the point of it was...
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Rothstein stating the obvious;
"2. St. John's needs strong 2015 recruiting class
The Red Storm may not have to sign nine players like they did when Lavin first took over the reigns of the program in 2010, but it's pretty clear that St. John's 2015 recruiting class will shape its future. The Red Storm will lose D'Angelo Harrison, Jamal Branch, Phil Greene and Dom Pointer after this season to graduation, and likely both Rysheed Jordan and Chris Obekpa to the NBA.
What does that mean for Lavin? In addition to the pressures of attempting to take this program back to the NCAA Tournament for the first time since his first season, he's also going to have to sign a heck of a class to maintain the talent level that's he's had since arriving in Jamaica. St. John's will return role players like Christian Jones, Felix Balamou, Keith Thomas and Adonis DeLaRosa in '15-16, but it's clear that this program needs to add a slew of impactful newcomers in its upcoming recruiting class.
St. John's remains on the short list for Top 100 prospects such as Isaiah Briscoe (Roselle Catholic, 6-3 PG), Cheick Diallo (Our Savior New American, 6-9 PF), Brandon Sampson (Madison Prep Academy, 6-4 SG), and Malik Beasley (Saint Francis High School, 6-4 SG). The key to the entire class may be Briscoe, a talented, scoring lead guard who recently said he's not going to sign until next spring. As of now, the Red Storm don't have a starting-caliber perimeter player on the roster for the '15-16 campaign as long as Jordan departs after next season as expected."
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24653336/observations-cincy-adds-skilled-frontcourt-to-hard-nosed-program (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24653336/observations-cincy-adds-skilled-frontcourt-to-hard-nosed-program)
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@franfraschilla: Good stuff on Saint John's recruiting. I'd bank on Red Storm coming up with a solid recruiting class. http://t.co/de4zdSem2l (http://t.co/de4zdSem2l)
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I'd bank on a top recruiting year as well...if fraschilla was doing the recruiting.
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I'm surprised to see this thread has any content at all
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I'm surprised to see this thread has any content at all
It's his coaching strategy thread that is blank!
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Does anybody think the big five conferences have more autonomy will impact the 15-16 class at all?
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His recruiting is good. He is coaching style is to let has to be let his bench coach coach the team. Hopefully whitesel is up to it. Another year like last year he is fired and he knows it
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His recruiting is good. He is coaching style is to let has to be let his bench coach coach the team. Hopefully whitesel is up to it. Another year like last year he is fired and he knows it
If you think SJU is fing a guy who goes 10-8 and wins 20 games and is a Bubble team then you are 100% wrong. ZERO chance. No way.
Don't get me wrong that would be a disappointment no doubt, this year they definitely should be a NCAA team. Other than Nova no one has more returning talent in the BE than SJU and add Thomas as a rebounder and a healthy and happy Jordan they should be good, potentially real good.
But SJU is not firing a coach for a being a "disappointment." He would have a to be a complete disaster, meaning losing record overall that type of thing.
You guys are confusing disappointing with disaster. Last year was not viewed by anyone at SJU as a complete disaster despite how they finished.
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His recruiting is good. He is coaching style is to let has to be let his bench coach coach the team. Hopefully whitesel is up to it. Another year like last year he is fired and he knows it
If you think SJU is fing a guy who goes 10-8 and wins 20 games and is a Bubble team then you are 100% wrong. ZERO chance. No way.
Don't get me wrong that would be a disappointment no doubt, this year they definitely should be a NCAA team. Other than Nova no one has more returning talent in the BE than SJU and add Thomas as a rebounder and a healthy and happy Jordan they should be good, potentially real good.
But SJU is not firing a coach for a being a "disappointment." He would have a to be a complete disaster, meaning losing record overall that type of thing.
You guys are confusing disappointing with disaster. Last year was not viewed by anyone at SJU as a complete disaster despite how they finished.
New school President just started and most likely a new AD soon too and the program's LARGEST benefactor very disappointed in the state of the program he has put a very large amount of money behind.... Coach Lavin is squarely on a very hot seat...
I would not call last year a disaster but it was a very big disappointment, the team should have won a minimum of 3 - 4 more games and should have made the tournament
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His recruiting is good. He is coaching style is to let has to be let his bench coach coach the team. Hopefully whitesel is up to it. Another year like last year he is fired and he knows it
If you think SJU is fing a guy who goes 10-8 and wins 20 games and is a Bubble team then you are 100% wrong. ZERO chance. No way.
Don't get me wrong that would be a disappointment no doubt, this year they definitely should be a NCAA team. Other than Nova no one has more returning talent in the BE than SJU and add Thomas as a rebounder and a healthy and happy Jordan they should be good, potentially real good.
But SJU is not firing a coach for a being a "disappointment." He would have a to be a complete disaster, meaning losing record overall that type of thing.
You guys are confusing disappointing with disaster. Last year was not viewed by anyone at SJU as a complete disaster despite how they finished.
New school President just started and most likely a new AD soon too and the program's LARGEST benefactor very disappointed in the state of the program he has put a very large amount of money behind.... Coach Lavin is squarely on a very hot seat...
I would not call last year a disaster but it was a very big disappointment, the team should have won a minimum of 3 - 4 more games and should have made the tournament
"LARGEST benefactor very disappointed" ====> Mike Francesca??? :2funny:
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His recruiting is good. He is coaching style is to let has to be let his bench coach coach the team. Hopefully whitesel is up to it. Another year like last year he is fired and he knows it
If you think SJU is fing a guy who goes 10-8 and wins 20 games and is a Bubble team then you are 100% wrong. ZERO chance. No way.
Don't get me wrong that would be a disappointment no doubt, this year they definitely should be a NCAA team. Other than Nova no one has more returning talent in the BE than SJU and add Thomas as a rebounder and a healthy and happy Jordan they should be good, potentially real good.
But SJU is not firing a coach for a being a "disappointment." He would have a to be a complete disaster, meaning losing record overall that type of thing.
You guys are confusing disappointing with disaster. Last year was not viewed by anyone at SJU as a complete disaster despite how they finished.
New school President just started and most likely a new AD soon too and the program's LARGEST benefactor very disappointed in the state of the program he has put a very large amount of money behind.... Coach Lavin is squarely on a very hot seat...
I would not call last year a disaster but it was a very big disappointment, the team should have won a minimum of 3 - 4 more games and should have made the tournament
"LARGEST benefactor very disappointed" ====> Mike Francesca??? :2funny:
Well you got the first name right. ;)
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I've made some posts urging and questioning the staff to do more overseas, but alas, I may have been a bit too critical. The staff was out in Turkey (anyone know who?) in July for the FIBA U18s.
Excerpt: " The Sports Complex was a welcoming place, and it says something about the state of basketball in 2014 that you can walk into a gym in a far-off place and see familiar things: Division I college coaches in the stands, in shirts from St.John's (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/team/st-johns-red-storm) and Gonzaga (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/team/gonzaga-bulldogs) and Baylor (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/team/baylor-bears) and Miami, and more. Scouts from NBA teams, a month removed from a draft in which one-third of the first-rounders were born outside the U.S., took notes in leather-bound portfolios."
http://www.si.com/nba/2014/08/06/fiba-croatia-dragan-bender-maccabi-tel-aviv-nba (http://www.si.com/nba/2014/08/06/fiba-croatia-dragan-bender-maccabi-tel-aviv-nba)
fwiw - Terps appear to have another Euro big man to follow on with 2014's Michael Cekovsky (Canaris BA)- Dragan Bender's older bro, Ivan, is said to be going to UMD...
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I've made some posts urging and questioning the staff to do more overseas, but alas, I may have been a bit too critical. The staff was out in Turkey (anyone know who?) in July for the FIBA U18s.
Excerpt: " The Sports Complex was a welcoming place, and it says something about the state of basketball in 2014 that you can walk into a gym in a far-off place and see familiar things: Division I college coaches in the stands, in shirts from St.John's (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/team/st-johns-red-storm) and Gonzaga (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/team/gonzaga-bulldogs) and Baylor (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/team/baylor-bears) and Miami, and more. Scouts from NBA teams, a month removed from a draft in which one-third of the first-rounders were born outside the U.S., took notes in leather-bound portfolios."
http://www.si.com/nba/2014/08/06/fiba-croatia-dragan-bender-maccabi-tel-aviv-nba (http://www.si.com/nba/2014/08/06/fiba-croatia-dragan-bender-maccabi-tel-aviv-nba)
fwiw - Terps appear to have another Euro big man to follow on with 2014's Michael Cekovsky (Canaris BA)- Dragan Bender's older bro, Ivan, is said to be going to UMD...
Maryland signs players. this should be posted under Lavin's Travel strategy.
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I've made some posts urging and questioning the staff to do more overseas, but alas, I may have been a bit too critical. The staff was out in Turkey (anyone know who?) in July for the FIBA U18s.
Excerpt: " The Sports Complex was a welcoming place, and it says something about the state of basketball in 2014 that you can walk into a gym in a far-off place and see familiar things: Division I college coaches in the stands, in shirts from St.John's (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/team/st-johns-red-storm) and Gonzaga (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/team/gonzaga-bulldogs) and Baylor (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/team/baylor-bears) and Miami, and more. Scouts from NBA teams, a month removed from a draft in which one-third of the first-rounders were born outside the U.S., took notes in leather-bound portfolios."
http://www.si.com/nba/2014/08/06/fiba-croatia-dragan-bender-maccabi-tel-aviv-nba (http://www.si.com/nba/2014/08/06/fiba-croatia-dragan-bender-maccabi-tel-aviv-nba)
fwiw - Terps appear to have another Euro big man to follow on with 2014's Michael Cekovsky (Canaris BA)- Dragan Bender's older bro, Ivan, is said to be going to UMD...
Maryland signs players. this should be posted under Lavin's Travel strategy.
It should be. I maintain DC and NYC's distinct advantages should be viewed upon more favorably for the foreign players.
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His recruiting is good. He is coaching style is to let has to be let his bench coach coach the team. Hopefully whitesel is up to it. Another year like last year he is fired and he knows it
If you think SJU is fing a guy who goes 10-8 and wins 20 games and is a Bubble team then you are 100% wrong. ZERO chance. No way.
Don't get me wrong that would be a disappointment no doubt, this year they definitely should be a NCAA team. Other than Nova no one has more returning talent in the BE than SJU and add Thomas as a rebounder and a healthy and happy Jordan they should be good, potentially real good.
But SJU is not firing a coach for a being a "disappointment." He would have a to be a complete disaster, meaning losing record overall that type of thing.
You guys are confusing disappointing with disaster. Last year was not viewed by anyone at SJU as a complete disaster despite how they finished.
Then why doesn'the he have an extension?
You may disagree but you know full well that there are people around the program who have soured on Lavin. not just the benevolent benefactor.
A repeat of last season and there's a very good chance he doesn't return.
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His recruiting is good. He is coaching style is to let has to be let his bench coach coach the team. Hopefully whitesel is up to it. Another year like last year he is fired and he knows it
If you think SJU is fing a guy who goes 10-8 and wins 20 games and is a Bubble team then you are 100% wrong. ZERO chance. No way.
Don't get me wrong that would be a disappointment no doubt, this year they definitely should be a NCAA team. Other than Nova no one has more returning talent in the BE than SJU and add Thomas as a rebounder and a healthy and happy Jordan they should be good, potentially real good.
But SJU is not firing a coach for a being a "disappointment." He would have a to be a complete disaster, meaning losing record overall that type of thing.
You guys are confusing disappointing with disaster. Last year was not viewed by anyone at SJU as a complete disaster despite how they finished.
Then why doesn'the he have an extension?
You may disagree but you know full well that there are people around the program who have soured on Lavin. not just the benevolent benefactor.
A repeat of last season and there's a very good chance he doesn't return.
You have no idea what you are talking about and you never have.
You are 100% clueless about his extension.
Zero. You know nothing. The baseless speculation by people who have zero to do with Coach's future is beyond funny.
My favorite is when people were convinced Roberts was gone after year 4 and not only was he not fired but he was given a rollover extension and both Harrington abd Monasch talked openly about how THRILLED they were he was their coach.
Like I said ZERO clue. Here is a piece of advice if most people are convinced something is going to happen specifically Coach being fired bet the opposite is true. And no I don't care what you think because it is laughable to hear people tell me what I don't know and then proceed to speculate on what might happen...
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Hopefully they have learned from the Robert's error and if Lavin continues to underachieve they won't wait that long this time. Hopefully we don't ever have to find out and Lavin makes the T and has a big recruiting year as many of you are predicting.
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I don't think anyone is going to verbal/sign until the Spring. The recruits have to wait and see if Lavin wins and there is a formal announcement of an extension. He isn't that hard to recruit against this season. Why commit to a coach who may not even be there and has sent all of one guy {Harkless} to the NBA?
Recruits have to wait and see if Lavin wins and is going to be here. The Dunlap coached team of Norm holdovers were a good fundamental team. Lavin really misses him.
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Interview summary from last week;
https://creighton.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1671403
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Lavin's seat isn't even warm yet. Whether it should or shouldn't be is a different matter. Norm was awful and he was here for 40 years--or at least it felt like it. This isn't exactly UCLA.
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Steve's record at SJU is pretty ho hum
71–60 (.542) overall
36–36 (.500) in conference.
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Steve's record at SJU is pretty ho hum
71–60 (.542) overall
36–36 (.500) in conference.
Steve's record at SJU is pretty ho hum
71–60 (.542) overall
36–36 (.500) in conference.
Steve's record at SJU is pretty ho hum
71–60 (.542) overall
36–36 (.500) in conference.
That's still better the. The past two coaches and he is probably the best coach since Louie...Man it has been painful...
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It's amazing we're all still fans. ;)
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It's amazing we're all still fans. ;)
With shortened life spans.
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His recruiting is good. He is coaching style is to let has to be let his bench coach coach the team. Hopefully whitesel is up to it. Another year like last year he is fired and he knows it
If you think SJU is fing a guy who goes 10-8 and wins 20 games and is a Bubble team then you are 100% wrong. ZERO chance. No way.
Don't get me wrong that would be a disappointment no doubt, this year they definitely should be a NCAA team. Other than Nova no one has more returning talent in the BE than SJU and add Thomas as a rebounder and a healthy and happy Jordan they should be good, potentially real good.
But SJU is not firing a coach for a being a "disappointment." He would have a to be a complete disaster, meaning losing record overall that type of thing.
You guys are confusing disappointing with disaster. Last year was not viewed by anyone at SJU as a complete disaster despite how they finished.
Then why doesn'the he have an extension?
You may disagree but you know full well that there are people around the program who have soured on Lavin. not just the benevolent benefactor.
A repeat of last season and there's a very good chance he doesn't return.
You have no idea what you are talking about and you never have.
You are 100% clueless about his extension.
Zero. You know nothing. The baseless speculation by people who have zero to do with Coach's future is beyond funny.
My favorite is when people were convinced Roberts was gone after year 4 and not only was he not fired but he was given a rollover extension and both Harrington abd Monasch talked openly about how THRILLED they were he was their coach.
Like I said ZERO clue. Here is a piece of advice if most people are convinced something is going to happen specifically Coach being fired bet the opposite is true. And no I don't care what you think because it is laughable to hear people tell me what I don't know and then proceed to speculate on what might happen...
Roberts was exactly what was needed at the time. He is a straight arrow and ran a clean program. After the strip club fiasco the program was dismal, no kid wanted to go there. Roberts had to recruit third tier players and his teams slowly improved. SJU had little to offer in those years, Im sure kids looked at the club incident and it was brought up by other schools as a reason to not go to SJU. Who kicks off most of the team for an incident that had no basis (striper allegation quickly proved false) and really amounted to 20 year olds acting 20. Top kids were terrified of SJU because of this. Roberts did a great job bringing the reputation of the program back and left a solid team for Dunlap and Lavin to take credit for. He taught those kids for 3 years, does anyone really think they learned to play together in a few months under the new coaches. Criticism of Roberts is unfounded.
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His recruiting is good. He is coaching style is to let has to be let his bench coach coach the team. Hopefully whitesel is up to it. Another year like last year he is fired and he knows it
If you think SJU is fing a guy who goes 10-8 and wins 20 games and is a Bubble team then you are 100% wrong. ZERO chance. No way.
Don't get me wrong that would be a disappointment no doubt, this year they definitely should be a NCAA team. Other than Nova no one has more returning talent in the BE than SJU and add Thomas as a rebounder and a healthy and happy Jordan they should be good, potentially real good.
But SJU is not firing a coach for a being a "disappointment." He would have a to be a complete disaster, meaning losing record overall that type of thing.
You guys are confusing disappointing with disaster. Last year was not viewed by anyone at SJU as a complete disaster despite how they finished.
Then why doesn'the he have an extension?
You may disagree but you know full well that there are people around the program who have soured on Lavin. not just the benevolent benefactor.
A repeat of last season and there's a very good chance he doesn't return.
You have no idea what you are talking about and you never have.
You are 100% clueless about his extension.
Zero. You know nothing. The baseless speculation by people who have zero to do with Coach's future is beyond funny.
My favorite is when people were convinced Roberts was gone after year 4 and not only was he not fired but he was given a rollover extension and both Harrington abd Monasch talked openly about how THRILLED they were he was their coach.
Like I said ZERO clue. Here is a piece of advice if most people are convinced something is going to happen specifically Coach being fired bet the opposite is true. And no I don't care what you think because it is laughable to hear people tell me what I don't know and then proceed to speculate on what might happen...
Roberts was exactly what was needed at the time. He is a straight arrow and ran a clean program. After the strip club fiasco the program was dismal, no kid wanted to go there. Roberts had to recruit third tier players and his teams slowly improved. SJU had little to offer in those years, Im sure kids looked at the club incident and it was brought up by other schools as a reason to not go to SJU. Who kicks off most of the team for an incident that had no basis (striper allegation quickly proved false) and really amounted to 20 year olds acting 20. Top kids were terrified of SJU because of this. Roberts did a great job bringing the reputation of the program back and left a solid team for Dunlap and Lavin to take credit for. He taught those kids for 3 years, does anyone really think they learned to play together in a few months under the new coaches. Criticism of Roberts is unfounded.
You had me up until the last few sentences. Yes I think those kids learned how to play together, it didnt happen right when lavin and dunlap got to them, it happened half way through that year. Norm got us some respect back, he cleaned our image, he recruited good kids but he didnt know how to use them (larry wright, dwight hardy, Brownlee, ect.). There was plenty to criticize him for.
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Roberts was exactly what was needed at the time. He is a straight arrow and ran a clean program. After the strip club fiasco the program was dismal, no kid wanted to go there. Roberts had to recruit third tier players and his teams slowly improved. SJU had little to offer in those years, Im sure kids looked at the club incident and it was brought up by other schools as a reason to not go to SJU. Criticism of Roberts is unfounded.
Lets get this straight, the position of the program had zero to do with Roberts recruiting third tier players. It had to do with Roberts, period. You think the fact that prior players went to a strip club is a reason a recruit wouldn't want to come to the school? That couldn't be further from the truth. Many young males go to strip clubs, so what. Baylor had players murdering each other and that didn't stop them from bringing in top recruits. If we could have hired a Cal, Pitino, etc we would have had a top 5 recruiting class in two years. Pitino got Jamaal Mashburn to sign with Ketucky while they were on probation! Its the coach that brings in the players, Little to offer????? NYC, MSG, minutes, best conference in college basketball. Roberts had so much to offer recruits his first couple of years, he just couldn't close.
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His recruiting is good. He is coaching style is to let has to be let his bench coach coach the team. Hopefully whitesel is up to it. Another year like last year he is fired and he knows it
If you think SJU is fing a guy who goes 10-8 and wins 20 games and is a Bubble team then you are 100% wrong. ZERO chance. No way.
Don't get me wrong that would be a disappointment no doubt, this year they definitely should be a NCAA team. Other than Nova no one has more returning talent in the BE than SJU and add Thomas as a rebounder and a healthy and happy Jordan they should be good, potentially real good.
But SJU is not firing a coach for a being a "disappointment." He would have a to be a complete disaster, meaning losing record overall that type of thing.
You guys are confusing disappointing with disaster. Last year was not viewed by anyone at SJU as a complete disaster despite how they finished.
Then why doesn'the he have an extension?
You may disagree but you know full well that there are people around the program who have soured on Lavin. not just the benevolent benefactor.
A repeat of last season and there's a very good chance he doesn't return.
You have no idea what you are talking about and you never have.
You are 100% clueless about his extension.
Zero. You know nothing. The baseless speculation by people who have zero to do with Coach's future is beyond funny.
My favorite is when people were convinced Roberts was gone after year 4 and not only was he not fired but he was given a rollover extension and both Harrington abd Monasch talked openly about how THRILLED they were he was their coach.
Like I said ZERO clue. Here is a piece of advice if most people are convinced something is going to happen specifically Coach being fired bet the opposite is true. And no I don't care what you think because it is laughable to hear people tell me what I don't know and then proceed to speculate on what might happen...
Roberts was exactly what was needed at the time. He is a straight arrow and ran a clean program. After the strip club fiasco the program was dismal, no kid wanted to go there. Roberts had to recruit third tier players and his teams slowly improved. SJU had little to offer in those years, Im sure kids looked at the club incident and it was brought up by other schools as a reason to not go to SJU. Who kicks off most of the team for an incident that had no basis (striper allegation quickly proved false) and really amounted to 20 year olds acting 20. Top kids were terrified of SJU because of this. Roberts did a great job bringing the reputation of the program back and left a solid team for Dunlap and Lavin to take credit for. He taught those kids for 3 years, does anyone really think they learned to play together in a few months under the new coaches. Criticism of Roberts is unfounded.
Roberts was a disease far worse than anything Mike Jarvis, or any one person ever did to SJU. And yes, I really think that the coaching staff taught Norm's recruits to play in the few months they had before BE play began. We saw it with our own eyes. The staff found a way to undo the damage Norm did in 3 years.
Without question, Norm Roberts is the worst thing that ever happened to STJ basketball.
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Roberts was exactly what was needed at the time. He is a straight arrow and ran a clean program. After the strip club fiasco the program was dismal, no kid wanted to go there. Roberts had to recruit third tier players and his teams slowly improved. SJU had little to offer in those years, Im sure kids looked at the club incident and it was brought up by other schools as a reason to not go to SJU. Criticism of Roberts is unfounded.
Lets get this straight, the position of the program had zero to do with Roberts recruiting third tier players. It had to do with Roberts, period. You think the fact that prior players went to a strip club is a reason a recruit wouldn't want to come to the school? That couldn't be further from the truth. Many young males go to strip clubs, so what. Baylor had players murdering each other and that didn't stop them from bringing in top recruits. If we could have hired a Cal, Pitino, etc we would have had a top 5 recruiting class in two years. Pitino got Jamaal Mashburn to sign with Ketucky while they were on probation! Its the coach that brings in the players, Roberts had so much to offer recruits his first couple of years, he just couldn't close.
Baylor and Kentucky pay their players. If Roberts had had their budgets he'd have recruited better.
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His recruiting is good. He is coaching style is to let has to be let his bench coach coach the team. Hopefully whitesel is up to it. Another year like last year he is fired and he knows it
If you think SJU is fing a guy who goes 10-8 and wins 20 games and is a Bubble team then you are 100% wrong. ZERO chance. No way.
Don't get me wrong that would be a disappointment no doubt, this year they definitely should be a NCAA team. Other than Nova no one has more returning talent in the BE than SJU and add Thomas as a rebounder and a healthy and happy Jordan they should be good, potentially real good.
But SJU is not firing a coach for a being a "disappointment." He would have a to be a complete disaster, meaning losing record overall that type of thing.
You guys are confusing disappointing with disaster. Last year was not viewed by anyone at SJU as a complete disaster despite how they finished.
Then why doesn'the he have an extension?
You may disagree but you know full well that there are people around the program who have soured on Lavin. not just the benevolent benefactor.
A repeat of last season and there's a very good chance he doesn't return.
You have no idea what you are talking about and you never have.
You are 100% clueless about his extension.
Zero. You know nothing. The baseless speculation by people who have zero to do with Coach's future is beyond funny.
My favorite is when people were convinced Roberts was gone after year 4 and not only was he not fired but he was given a rollover extension and both Harrington abd Monasch talked openly about how THRILLED they were he was their coach.
Like I said ZERO clue. Here is a piece of advice if most people are convinced something is going to happen specifically Coach being fired bet the opposite is true. And no I don't care what you think because it is laughable to hear people tell me what I don't know and then proceed to speculate on what might happen...
Roberts was exactly what was needed at the time. He is a straight arrow and ran a clean program. After the strip club fiasco the program was dismal, no kid wanted to go there. Roberts had to recruit third tier players and his teams slowly improved. SJU had little to offer in those years, Im sure kids looked at the club incident and it was brought up by other schools as a reason to not go to SJU. Who kicks off most of the team for an incident that had no basis (striper allegation quickly proved false) and really amounted to 20 year olds acting 20. Top kids were terrified of SJU because of this. Roberts did a great job bringing the reputation of the program back and left a solid team for Dunlap and Lavin to take credit for. He taught those kids for 3 years, does anyone really think they learned to play together in a few months under the new coaches. Criticism of Roberts is unfounded.
You had me up until the last few sentences. Yes I think those kids learned how to play together, it didnt happen right when lavin and dunlap got to them, it happened half way through that year. Norm got us some respect back, he cleaned our image, he recruited good kids but he didnt know how to use them (larry wright, dwight hardy, Brownlee, ect.). There was plenty to criticize him for.
The last few years have proven Dunlaps worth
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Roberts was a disease far worse than anything Mike Jarvis, or any one person ever did to SJU.
I wouldn't go that far now, Jarvis was the root cause of the programs demise. We shouldn't ever speak his name again.
Just refer to him as he who shall remain nameless.
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Jarvis single-handedly ran this program into the ground. He took all of the good work that Fraschilla did in and obliterated it. He had that pompous attitude and all the city coaches said they never saw him at any of their games. He took a program that was almost always relevant and made them irrelevant.
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Roberts was a disease far worse than anything Mike Jarvis, or any one person ever did to SJU.
I wouldn't go that far now, Jarvis was the root cause of the programs demise. We shouldn't ever speak his name again.
Just refer to him as he who shall remain nameless.
Bullshit he was. He coached them to an elite 8, and to a BE tournament championship. He certainly imploded, because he couldn't handle that you have to kiss the asses of these punk 17 year olds. That's part of the job. He didn't care, and that's why he's no longer coaching.
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Jarvis single-handedly ran this program into the ground. He took all of the good work that Fraschilla did in and obliterated it. He had that pompous attitude and all the city coaches said they never saw him at any of their games. He took a program that was almost always relevant and made them irrelevant.
Actually, Father Harrington ran this program into the ground when he expelled 3 players for doing what schools like Kentucky and Uconn consider to be just a typical night out.
Under Mike Jarvis, how many post season tournaments did STJ make? I count 3. The NCAAs 3 times. One year, they went 8-8, and didn't make the post season. That's only because he scheduled a real non conference schedule. Say what you want about his personality, or his recruiting, but he coached STJ to more post season success than anyone since Lou C. And it's not even close.
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Roberts was a disease far worse than anything Mike Jarvis, or any one person ever did to SJU.
I wouldn't go that far now, Jarvis was the root cause of the programs demise. We shouldn't ever speak his name again.
Just refer to him as he who shall remain nameless.
Bullshit he was. He coached them to an elite 8, and to a BE tournament championship. He certainly imploded, because he couldn't handle that you have to kiss the asses of these punk 17 year olds. That's part of the job. He didn't care, and that's why he's no longer coaching.
He who shall remain nameless was a far superior coach than Roberts no question, but like you said, he imploded, and took the program with him.
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Roberts was exactly what was needed at the time. He is a straight arrow and ran a clean program. After the strip club fiasco the program was dismal, no kid wanted to go there. Roberts had to recruit third tier players and his teams slowly improved. SJU had little to offer in those years, Im sure kids looked at the club incident and it was brought up by other schools as a reason to not go to SJU. Criticism of Roberts is unfounded.
Lets get this straight, the position of the program had zero to do with Roberts recruiting third tier players. It had to do with Roberts, period. You think the fact that prior players went to a strip club is a reason a recruit wouldn't want to come to the school? That couldn't be further from the truth. Many young males go to strip clubs, so what. Baylor had players murdering each other and that didn't stop them from bringing in top recruits. If we could have hired a Cal, Pitino, etc we would have had a top 5 recruiting class in two years. Pitino got Jamaal Mashburn to sign with Kentucky while they were on probation! Its the coach that brings in the players, Roberts had so much to offer recruits his first couple of years, he just couldn't close.
Baylor and Kentucky pay their players. If Roberts had had their budgets he'd have recruited better.
True....maybe those schools are bad examples. However the premise of my statement still holds true. If we could have brought in a Coach K, Larry Brown, etc etc, any credible coach, we could have recovered much sooner.
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Roberts was a disease far worse than anything Mike Jarvis, or any one person ever did to SJU.
I wouldn't go that far now, Jarvis was the root cause of the programs demise. We shouldn't ever speak his name again.
Just refer to him as he who shall remain nameless.
Bullshit he was. He coached them to an elite 8, and to a BE tournament championship. He certainly imploded, because he couldn't handle that you have to kiss the asses of these punk 17 year olds. That's part of the job. He didn't care, and that's why he's no longer coaching.
He who shall remain nameless was a far superior coach than Roberts no question, but like you said, he imploded, and took the program with him.
If they fired Jarvis after the season, it could have been rebuilt in 1-2 years, juts like Baylor was. And Baylor actually had a legitimate situation. Why is it that everyone forgets that the Pittsburgh scandal happened after Jarvis was fired. Harry caused 100% of the program's downfall. But at least he was an honest president.
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Deja vu...all over again!
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Comparative Negligence
Jarvis 60% Harry40%
or
Harry60% Jarvis40%
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Jarvis could coach. For a period, we recruited well under him, although I don't know if that had more to do with the success of the program and the assistants who were recruiting for Jarvis. And then everything went to hell, and Jarvis seemed to not be concerned with the implosion.
Related note, since we are talking about past coaches. Some of may have heard Calipari on Francessa's show earlier in the week. Francessa told Rick Majerus was close to taking the St. John's job, with Slice as his lead assistant to recruit, but that it fell apart when North Carolina made overtures about Majerus taking that job. I had never heard that before. Any idea where that falls in the timeline? Sometime before UNC hired Matt D is my guess.
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Jarvis could coach. For a period, we recruited well under him, although I don't know if that had more to do with the success of the program and the assistants who were recruiting for Jarvis. And then everything went to hell, and Jarvis seemed to not be concerned with the implosion.
Related note, since we are talking about past coaches. Some of may have heard Calipari on Francessa's show earlier in the week. Francessa told Rick Majerus was close to taking the St. John's job, with Slice as his lead assistant to recruit, but that it fell apart when North Carolina made overtures about Majerus taking that job. I had never heard that before. Any idea where that falls in the timeline? Sometime before UNC hired Matt D is my guess.
Jarvis could coach. For a period, we recruited well under him, although I don't know if that had more to do with the success of the program and the assistants who were recruiting for Jarvis. And then everything went to hell, and Jarvis seemed to not be concerned with the implosion.
Related note, since we are talking about past coaches. Some of may have heard Calipari on Francessa's show earlier in the week. Francessa told Rick Majerus was close to taking the St. John's job, with Slice as his lead assistant to recruit, but that it fell apart when North Carolina made overtures about Majerus taking that job. I had never heard that before. Any idea where that falls in the timeline? Sometime before UNC hired Matt D is my guess.
If true and it fell apart cause Majerus got involved with N Carolina I guess it was the old how dare he even think about anything but SJU {see FF}.
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I don't even know where this thread is currently at, but I saw Roberts and I felt compelled to post just how truly awful he was. No hope. None. You'd think any coach in the country would have made the tournament with that many juniors--most who played huge minutes since day one. Nope...not even close. He would have ruined the next year as well. I have no doubt.
It took Dunlap's ridiculous zone and Lavin centering the team around Hardy at the point (gotta give the guy credit) and Brownlee to turn them into what they were. Norm couldn't even figure out that Hardy was the star. Problem is now that the long leash Lavin gave Brownlee is the same he gives to Dom and expects the same results.
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Related note, since we are talking about past coaches. Some of may have heard Calipari on Francessa's show earlier in the week. Francessa told Rick Majerus was close to taking the St. John's job, with Slice as his lead assistant to recruit, but that it fell apart when North Carolina made overtures about Majerus taking that job. I had never heard that before. Any idea where that falls in the timeline? Sometime before UNC hired Matt D is my guess.
The evidence suggests Francessa is talking out his enormous ass.
Dean Smith retired in 1997.
Gurthridge: 1997-2000
Doh: 2000-2003
Williams: 2003 - ?
Fran: 1996-1998
Jarhead: 1998-2003
(Kevin Clark)
Norm: 2004-2010
Majerus: left Utah at the end of the 03-04 season for "health reasons" and subsequently took the HC job at USC in December 2004 - his "dream job" he called it - from which he resigned 5 days later - also for health reasons, although he later changed his story and said he resigned because his mother said California was too far from Wisconsin, which makes little sense, as it's only 700 miles from Salt Lake to LA, but whatever.
For this scenario to fit it - and the dates don't really work - it must be that Majerus resigned from Utah for health reasons, then resigned from his dream job at USC for health reasons, then almost accepted the SJU job, then change his mind and considered the NC job, which ended up going to Roy Williams (except Williams had been hired a year earlier) and SJU ended up with Norm.
So to recap: nonsense.
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I don't even know where this thread is currently at, but I saw Roberts and I felt compelled to post just how truly awful he was. No hope. None. You'd think any coach in the country would have made the tournament with that many juniors--most who played huge minutes since day one. Nope...not even close. He would have ruined the next year as well. I have no doubt.
It took Dunlap's ridiculous zone and Lavin centering the team around Hardy at the point (gotta give the guy credit) and Brownlee to turn them into what they were. Norm couldn't even figure out that Hardy was the star. Problem is now that the long leash Lavin gave Brownlee is the same he gives to Dom and expects the same results.
We can blame Lavin for quite a bit, but Dom needs to grow up.
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My guess is we wouldn't be rehashing all this if Lavin had delivered as expected.
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I don't even know where this thread is currently at, but I saw Roberts and I felt compelled to post just how truly awful he was. No hope. None. You'd think any coach in the country would have made the tournament with that many juniors--most who played huge minutes since day one. Nope...not even close. He would have ruined the next year as well. I have no doubt.
I agree, it's a shame Steve Lavin couldn't take last year's junior laden team to the NCAA tournament - especially since many of those top 100 out of HS juniors played huge minutes from day one, and not to mention the addition of valuable upper class men like AA JUCO GG Achiewa and Utah Jazz starting forward O Sanchez. It reveals real shortcomings in Lavin's coaching ability. Probably any other coach in the country would have made the tournament with that roster.
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Related note, since we are talking about past coaches. Some of may have heard Calipari on Francessa's show earlier in the week. Francessa told Rick Majerus was close to taking the St. John's job, with Slice as his lead assistant to recruit, but that it fell apart when North Carolina made overtures about Majerus taking that job. I had never heard that before. Any idea where that falls in the timeline? Sometime before UNC hired Matt D is my guess.
The evidence suggests Francessa is talking out his enormous ass.
Dean Smith retired in 1997.
Gurthridge: 1997-2000
Doh: 2000-2003
Williams: 2003 - ?
Fran: 1996-1998
Jarhead: 1998-2003
(Kevin Clark)
Norm: 2004-2010
Majerus: left Utah at the end of the 03-04 season for "health reasons" and subsequently took the HC job at USC in December 2004 - his "dream job" he called it - from which he resigned 5 days later - also for health reasons, although he later changed his story and said he resigned because his mother said California was too far from Wisconsin, which makes little sense, as it's only 700 miles from Salt Lake to LA, but whatever.
For this scenario to fit it - and the dates don't really work - it must be that Majerus resigned from Utah for health reasons, then resigned from his dream job at USC for health reasons, then almost accepted the SJU job, then change his mind and considered the NC job, which ended up going to Roy Williams (except Williams had been hired a year earlier) and SJU ended up with Norm.
So to recap: nonsense.
I know nothing about the Majerus situation that was presented at the time....but the fact that he coached through the 04 season in no way means he could not have flirted with taking the St. John's job or the UNC job prior to leaving Utah. I know how unheard of it is for a coach to leave before a contract is up, but believe it or not, it has happened before ;)
If anything, I'd say your timeline only supports Fatcessa's theory. Him leaving Utah in 04 means it was possible if not likely that he considered leaving a year earlier, when a good HC job opened up (us) and a fantastic job opened up (UNC). Again, I know nothing about the situation, and I am NOT a fan of Fatcessa, but it certainly seems like what he's saying could possibly have been true.
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Related note, since we are talking about past coaches. Some of may have heard Calipari on Francessa's show earlier in the week. Francessa told Rick Majerus was close to taking the St. John's job, with Slice as his lead assistant to recruit, but that it fell apart when North Carolina made overtures about Majerus taking that job. I had never heard that before. Any idea where that falls in the timeline? Sometime before UNC hired Matt D is my guess.
The evidence suggests Francessa is talking out his enormous ass.
Dean Smith retired in 1997.
Gurthridge: 1997-2000
Doh: 2000-2003
Williams: 2003 - ?
Fran: 1996-1998
Jarhead: 1998-2003
(Kevin Clark)
Norm: 2004-2010
Majerus: left Utah at the end of the 03-04 season for "health reasons" and subsequently took the HC job at USC in December 2004 - his "dream job" he called it - from which he resigned 5 days later - also for health reasons, although he later changed his story and said he resigned because his mother said California was too far from Wisconsin, which makes little sense, as it's only 700 miles from Salt Lake to LA, but whatever.
For this scenario to fit it - and the dates don't really work - it must be that Majerus resigned from Utah for health reasons, then resigned from his dream job at USC for health reasons, then almost accepted the SJU job, then change his mind and considered the NC job, which ended up going to Roy Williams (except Williams had been hired a year earlier) and SJU ended up with Norm.
So to recap: nonsense.
I know nothing about the Majerus situation that was presented at the time....but the fact that he coached through the 04 season in no way means he could not have flirted with taking the St. John's job or the UNC job prior to leaving Utah. I know how unheard of it is for a coach to leave before a contract is up, but believe it or not, it has happened before ;)
If anything, I'd say your timeline only supports Fatcessa's theory. Him leaving Utah in 04 means it was possible if not likely that he considered leaving a year earlier, when a good HC job opened up (us) and a fantastic job opened up (UNC). Again, I know nothing about the situation, and I am NOT a fan of Fatcessa, but it certainly seems like what he's saying could possibly have been true.
Your theories:
Scenario 1:
Rick Majerus was the choice to replace Fran at SJU n 1998, before Jarhead was hired, but he spurned SJU because UNC approached him to replace Dean Smith's hand picked successor Bill Guthridge, a year into his tenure, coming off a Final Four appearance.
Scenario 2:
Sometime in 2003: while at Utah Rick Majerus is approached by both UNC, to replace Mat Doh!, and by SJU, to replace the Jarvae
April 2003: Roy Williams hired at UNC to replace Matt Doh!
December 2003: Mike Jarvis fired, replaced by Kevin Clark
March 2004: Kevin Clark relieved of duties
April 2004: Majerus resigns from Utah because his heart keeps exploding
April 2004: Majerus spurns SJU, having been approached by UNC to replace either (a) Matt Doh! in 2003 or (b) Roy Williams
April 2004: Roberts hired
December 2004: Majerus resigns USC "dream job" because his heart keeps exploding
One of these scenarios you believe "could possibly have been true," because you "know nothing about the .. situation."
Thanks for playing.
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I don't even know where this thread is currently at, but I saw Roberts and I felt compelled to post just how truly awful he was. No hope. None. You'd think any coach in the country would have made the tournament with that many juniors--most who played huge minutes since day one. Nope...not even close. He would have ruined the next year as well. I have no doubt.
I agree, it's a shame Steve Lavin couldn't take last year's junior laden team to the NCAA tournament - especially since many of those top 100 out of HS juniors played huge minutes from day one, and not to mention the addition of valuable upper class men like AA JUCO GG Achiewa and Utah Jazz starting forward O Sanchez. It reveals real shortcomings in Lavin's coaching ability. Probably any other coach in the country would have made the tournament with that roster.
GG was a D-2 JUCO AA...big difference. Coach started a freshman PG, a soph PF, and, at times, a soph center. He didn't have a single senior that played all four years. Norm had a top 75 5th year senior to add to those juniors...perhaps other seniors but I don't want to remember the pain aymore than I have to.
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I don't even know where this thread is currently at, but I saw Roberts and I felt compelled to post just how truly awful he was. No hope. None. You'd think any coach in the country would have made the tournament with that many juniors--most who played huge minutes since day one. Nope...not even close. He would have ruined the next year as well. I have no doubt.
I agree, it's a shame Steve Lavin couldn't take last year's junior laden team to the NCAA tournament - especially since many of those top 100 out of HS juniors played huge minutes from day one, and not to mention the addition of valuable upper class men like AA JUCO GG Achiewa and Utah Jazz starting forward O Sanchez. It reveals real shortcomings in Lavin's coaching ability. Probably any other coach in the country would have made the tournament with that roster.
GG was a D-2 JUCO AA...big difference. Coach started a freshman PG, a soph PF, and, at times, a soph center. He didn't have a single senior that played all four years. Norm had a top 75 5th year senior to add to those juniors...perhaps other seniors but I don't want to remember the pain aymore than I have to.
Plus Roberts had Malik Stith. He was really fast.
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One of these scenarios you believe "could possibly have been true," because you "know nothing about the .. situation."
Thanks for playing.
Neither of those things are what I was suggesting, but thank you for playing.
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Jarvis single-handedly ran this program into the ground. He took all of the good work that Fraschilla did in and obliterated it. He had that pompous attitude and all the city coaches said they never saw him at any of their games. He took a program that was almost always relevant and made them irrelevant.
Actually, Father Harrington ran this program into the ground when he expelled 3 players for doing what schools like Kentucky and Uconn consider to be just a typical night out.
Under Mike Jarvis, how many post season tournaments did STJ make? I count 3. The NCAAs 3 times. One year, they went 8-8, and didn't make the post season. That's only because he scheduled a real non conference schedule. Say what you want about his personality, or his recruiting, but he coached STJ to more post season success than anyone since Lou C. And it's not even close.
Jarvis was a cancer. If you are a young kid and you see players getting expelled for normal 19 year old behavior you will stay away from the program. RE the first Lavin/Dunlap team, the team, maturity and poise of that minimally-talented team did not come overnight as suggested above. Harrington wanted a clean program, he got it, but clean does not lead to success. All the major programs are dirty but some are lucky and hide it well
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Jarvis went 152-90 with four NCAA appearances (one sweet 16) at GW. Then he was 110-61 at SJU with three NCAAs (one elite 8) and an NIT win. I really doubt Lavin could have done as well with what he had to work with. Fraschilla maybe Lavin no way. Jarvis did implode but his record speaks for itself. Firing Fran was probably the key mistake out of so many by our fabulous sports staff. Jarvis at least had credentials when he was hired. That was the opposite of Roberts who had the shoes to claim credit for Self's achievements. What a sad story and it ain't over yet.
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To be accurate 46 of Jarvis's wins have been vacated for Abe freakin' Keita. I mean Keita didn't even learn the Jarvis weave and chuck offense and look what he cost the esteemed Uncle Phil. Jarvis did coach good defense but once Fran's recruits left his shortcomings in offense and player motivation became apparent, besides being a POS person. THE WORST THING that has happened to the STJ basketball program was Marcus Hatten carrying the 2003 team to the NIT Championship. A first round loss and 15-14 record and Jarvis is fired. No Pittsburgh, No Norm, No disruption to recruiting. Not saying the admin at that time would have made a great hire but the job would have been attractive enough for a good hire in the old big east. Heck with a starting five of Hill, Ingram, Hamilton, Cuffe and Reynolds a NEW coach might have even beat Fairfield and Hofstra.
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@NYPost_Brazille: New ESPN 2015 rankings: Cheick Diallo (7), Isaiah Briscoe (13), Brandon Sampson (31). #sjubb