The blame for poor attendance falls on....

Quote from: Dave on January 20, 2009, 11:50:10 AM

There are plenty of teams with worse product on the floor who see much better attendance results. The coach doesn't make the ticket prices, the coach doesn't market to sell tickets, the coach doesn't make the in game promotions, the coach doesn't sell the tickets, the coach doesn't do seating charts, and the coach doesn't hire all the people in the athletic department who are responsible for this.

To go back to your analogy of the pet sitter. Would you blame the pet sitter for the plants in the house dying? For the house getting dusty? For not doing the laundry? For not taking in the newspaper? For not cutting the lawn?

So to put the blame solely or most responsibly on the coach for attendance is just misplaced.

Are you REALLY blaming marketing and seating charts for decline in ticket sales?  What world do you live in?  This is one of the winningest college basketball teams of all time.  ITS THE COACH!

There was a lot of gripes with the season ticket situation and seats being bumped up last season. People were in fact outraged and ready not to renew after 20 seasons but now you're saying none of this matter its solely on the coach?

I'm not placing blame on anyone or anything however I was trying to engage in some civil discussion on what were he contributing factors to the decline and perhaps come up with some possible solutions.

If you want to place blame on Norm for the scheduling that is fair to say. Who wants to see us play NJIT. However the question gets deeper would you go see NJIT for $33? Even if we were a top 25 team in the country you still probably wouldn't go see them play NJIT. Especially if you were a family of 4 would you spend $132 to take your kids out to see NJIT? Would you go see the game if you could take your family of 4 out for $40-60. There is definitely a better chance.

This has ALWAYS been an issue with St. John's basketball, Dave.  Always.  CA has overcharged for crappy games.  That has been a constant.  The variable is the product ont he floor.  Are there other contributing factors? Probably.  Yes, if the tix were less, more people would come to see this team...but the variable, the REASON for the drop in attendance from past years, is the poor product.  And that falls SQUARELY on Norm's shoulders.  He's the main reason why sales have dropped so drastically.  Suggesting other factors are even close to the Norm factor is just fantasy.

Quote from: Marillac on January 20, 2009, 12:10:43 PM

Quote from: Dave on January 20, 2009, 11:50:10 AM

To go back to your analogy of the pet sitter. Would you blame the pet sitter for the plants in the house dying? For the house getting dusty? For not doing the laundry? For not taking in the newspaper? For not cutting the lawn?

I have gone back to this a few times and I just can't understand where you are going with this.  We think so differently.  What do any of the factors you mention have to do with the dog starving?  If the sitter was hired to feed the dog, what does not doing the launry or dusting have ANYTHING to do with it?  They are not contibuting factors to tthe dogs death.  Get it?

I think you inadvertently saw my point. What does coaching have to do with selling tickets? Get it?

But what did any of the things you mentioned have to do with the dog dying - which is what the dog analogy was all about?  You asked me if I would blame the pet sitter, Norm Roberts in the analogy, for the factors you listed that had nothing to do with the dog dying (poor ticket sales).  That would be like me blaming Norm for wearing a bad suit or not being able to speak Mandarin Chinese.  It has nothing to do with ticket sales, and I don't see the point you are making.  If anything it actually counters your claim that other factors have more to do with ticket sales than coaching. 

This has ALWAYS been an issue with St. John's basketball, Dave.  Always.  CA has overcharged for crappy games.  That has been a constant.  The variable is the product ont he floor.  Are there other contributing factors? Probably.  Yes, if the tix were less, more people would come to see this team...but the variable, the REASON for the drop in attendance from past years, is the poor product.  And that falls SQUARELY on Norm's shoulders.  He's the main reason why sales have dropped so drastically.  Suggesting other factors are even close to the Norm factor is just fantasy.

Well put.  I thought this would be something that everyone, irrespective of their opinion of Norm, would agree on.  I guess not. 

Teams that lose for five-six years straight will almost always have lower ticket sales. 

Quote from: Dave on January 20, 2009, 11:50:10 AM

There are plenty of teams with worse product on the floor who see much better attendance results. The coach doesn't make the ticket prices, the coach doesn't market to sell tickets, the coach doesn't make the in game promotions, the coach doesn't sell the tickets, the coach doesn't do seating charts, and the coach doesn't hire all the people in the athletic department who are responsible for this.

To go back to your analogy of the pet sitter. Would you blame the pet sitter for the plants in the house dying? For the house getting dusty? For not doing the laundry? For not taking in the newspaper? For not cutting the lawn?

So to put the blame solely or most responsibly on the coach for attendance is just misplaced.

Are you REALLY blaming marketing and seating charts for decline in ticket sales?  What world do you live in?  This is one of the winningest college basketball teams of all time.  ITS THE COACH!

I don't know if you're a current season ticket holder or just a fan, but the seating at MSG is, to use an oveused expression, a joke. How many times does one have to witness fans from an opposing fan base come in for his biannual game at MSG sitting in front of him/her?

If Dennis Myron doesn't want to advocate for his fanbase to the powers that be at MSG, why should fans bother purchasing season ticket packages or donating to a red/white club?
They can simply pick and choose the games that are of more interest to them.

My top 5 reasons for the attendance:
1) the lack of attachment to the university and basketball program from the alumni base
2) the lack of faith in the head coach and the direction of the program
3) selling a substandard product without creative marketing or strong customer loyalty
4) many televised games
5) working class fan base

There was a lot of gripes with the season ticket situation and seats being bumped up last season. People were in fact outraged and ready not to renew after 20 seasons but now you're saying none of this matter its solely on the coach?

I'm not placing blame on anyone or anything however I was trying to engage in some civil discussion on what were he contributing factors to the decline and perhaps come up with some possible solutions.

If you want to place blame on Norm for the scheduling that is fair to say. Who wants to see us play NJIT. However the question gets deeper would you go see NJIT for $33? Even if we were a top 25 team in the country you still probably wouldn't go see them play NJIT. Especially if you were a family of 4 would you spend $132 to take your kids out to see NJIT? Would you go see the game if you could take your family of 4 out for $40-60. There is definitely a better chance.

You are certainly right that there was a lot of griping about the season ticket policy and the moving of people's seats and people threatening to not renew (a lot have not over the past 2 years). That all had to do with the point system for season ticket holders that was implemtned and had nothing to do with Coach Roberts. The school made a decision to reward to most generous fans of the program. While I do think its the right system to have, the timing of its implementation at St. John's has been horrendous. The schools adminstration never thought they would continue to be this bad and they thought the uproad over the point system would go away with an improveing team. The team has continued to suck under Coach Roberts and the griping about the season ticket policy has continued.

If St. John's were a succesful team, the price of the ticket wouldn't matter, the fans would come. When St. John's has historically been good or even average, drawing fans has never been an issue. It will not be an issue once the teams gets better.

If Coach Roberts had improved the on court this conversation would never happen.

right now there's one way to fill seats and only one.

a coldplay concert before the njit game.

beyonce before bethune cookman.

dave matthews band before liu...

you get the picture.

going to the games now is giving the school something (your money) for nothing (the on court product).

Really bad team
Really boring team
Apathy from the admin trickles down to the fans. Call it the Kansas City Royals affect.
Losing tradition the last 6 years
Bad economy
Many,many,many other things to do in NYC

Quote from: Marillac on January 20, 2009, 12:10:43 PM

Quote from: Dave on January 20, 2009, 11:50:10 AM

To go back to your analogy of the pet sitter. Would you blame the pet sitter for the plants in the house dying? For the house getting dusty? For not doing the laundry? For not taking in the newspaper? For not cutting the lawn?

I have gone back to this a few times and I just can't understand where you are going with this.  We think so differently.  What do any of the factors you mention have to do with the dog starving?  If the sitter was hired to feed the dog, what does not doing the launry or dusting have ANYTHING to do with it?  They are not contibuting factors to tthe dogs death.  Get it?

I think you inadvertently saw my point. What does coaching have to do with selling tickets? Get it?

So if Cal or Pitino was hired their first game wouldn't have a packed house?

Quote from: Dave on January 20, 2009, 12:13:20 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 20, 2009, 12:10:43 PM

Quote from: Dave on January 20, 2009, 11:50:10 AM

To go back to your analogy of the pet sitter. Would you blame the pet sitter for the plants in the house dying? For the house getting dusty? For not doing the laundry? For not taking in the newspaper? For not cutting the lawn?

I have gone back to this a few times and I just can't understand where you are going with this.  We think so differently.  What do any of the factors you mention have to do with the dog starving?  If the sitter was hired to feed the dog, what does not doing the launry or dusting have ANYTHING to do with it?  They are not contibuting factors to tthe dogs death.  Get it?

I think you inadvertently saw my point. What does coaching have to do with selling tickets? Get it?

So if Cal or Pitino was hired their first game wouldn't have a packed house?

Only if they lower the ticket prices and market the heck out of it!

Quote from: we are sju on January 20, 2009, 04:47:44 PM

Quote from: Dave on January 20, 2009, 12:13:20 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 20, 2009, 12:10:43 PM

Quote from: Dave on January 20, 2009, 11:50:10 AM

To go back to your analogy of the pet sitter. Would you blame the pet sitter for the plants in the house dying? For the house getting dusty? For not doing the laundry? For not taking in the newspaper? For not cutting the lawn?

I have gone back to this a few times and I just can't understand where you are going with this.  We think so differently.  What do any of the factors you mention have to do with the dog starving?  If the sitter was hired to feed the dog, what does not doing the launry or dusting have ANYTHING to do with it?  They are not contibuting factors to tthe dogs death.  Get it?

I think you inadvertently saw my point. What does coaching have to do with selling tickets? Get it?

So if Cal or Pitino was hired their first game wouldn't have a packed house?

Only if they lower the ticket prices and market the heck out of it!

Too bad we will never find out!

Quote from: Marillac on January 20, 2009, 04:57:05 PM

Quote from: we are sju on January 20, 2009, 04:47:44 PM

Quote from: Dave on January 20, 2009, 12:13:20 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 20, 2009, 12:10:43 PM

Quote from: Dave on January 20, 2009, 11:50:10 AM

To go back to your analogy of the pet sitter. Would you blame the pet sitter for the plants in the house dying? For the house getting dusty? For not doing the laundry? For not taking in the newspaper? For not cutting the lawn?

I have gone back to this a few times and I just can't understand where you are going with this.  We think so differently.  What do any of the factors you mention have to do with the dog starving?  If the sitter was hired to feed the dog, what does not doing the launry or dusting have ANYTHING to do with it?  They are not contibuting factors to tthe dogs death.  Get it?

I think you inadvertently saw my point. What does coaching have to do with selling tickets? Get it?

So if Cal or Pitino was hired their first game wouldn't have a packed house?

Only if they lower the ticket prices and market the heck out of it!

Too bad we will never find out!

And that is the real shame.

Really bad team
Really boring team
Apathy from the admin trickles down to the fans. Call it the Kansas City Royals affect.
Losing tradition the last 6 years
Bad economy
Many,many,many other things to do in NYC

The commuter school has a very low alumni giving rate (12-16%), the US News & World Report's gauge of alumni satisfaction.



A general overview of giving rates at other colleges:
http://www2.acs.ncsu.edu/UPA/peers/current/research_intensive/alumgiv.htm

http://oirsacs.jmu.edu/PerfMeasures/peerSatisfaction.asp

STJ's pitch:
http://www.alumni.stjohns.edu/pls/portal30/alumdev.alum_sitelet?p_code=gb

To enhance support - parents of prospective students look at the giving rate as an indicator of alumni satisfaction.

Quote from: Dave on January 20, 2009, 12:13:20 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 20, 2009, 12:10:43 PM

Quote from: Dave on January 20, 2009, 11:50:10 AM

To go back to your analogy of the pet sitter. Would you blame the pet sitter for the plants in the house dying? For the house getting dusty? For not doing the laundry? For not taking in the newspaper? For not cutting the lawn?

I have gone back to this a few times and I just can't understand where you are going with this.  We think so differently.  What do any of the factors you mention have to do with the dog starving?  If the sitter was hired to feed the dog, what does not doing the launry or dusting have ANYTHING to do with it?  They are not contibuting factors to tthe dogs death.  Get it?

I think you inadvertently saw my point. What does coaching have to do with selling tickets? Get it?

Dave you are WAY smarter than to believe that.  Why do you need to defend Norm when it just isn't worth it?

Norm is reponsible for the product on the floor.  People are NOT buying tickets because the product on the floor is subpar.  Therefore, HE is responsible for the drop in ticket sales.  Get it?

Winning makes a difference, but this program has had cheap alumni with winning teams as well losing ones. I watched us in a half empty arena when we had Artest.