The Rasta thread and the question of Halie Selassie's divinity

A lotta peeps been askin me so Ill put this to bed post haste and once and for all.

I am not of the Rastafari.

To be clear I used to practice many of the Rasta culture back in the day. And soma my extend fams is of the Rasta. But just one look at my shaved cap and y'all know I aint Rasta. 

I was drawn to the Rasta as a young man and they was a time when I consider the conversion. But in my heart I was never able to accept the notion that His Imperial Majesty the Emperor Halie Selassie was God or a member of the Godhead or Jah Rastafari.

Now I believe that his His Imperial Majesty the Emperor Halie Selassie was a prophet, a righteous deliverer of his peeps from the bonds of oppression and arguable the most important man of the 20th Century.

But as a man of Christ, I cannot accept his divinity which is at the heart of the Rasta. Dont mean I dont respct they beliefs and that we all will be lead to the kingdom of Zion. Just that I come to it from a diffnt perspective is all.

So in the spirit of presentin new cultural offerings on the JJ, I'd like to open it up to y'all fo discussion or any question y'all may have on the nature of the Rastafari and whether y'all hold the notion of HIM the Emperor Halie Selassie's divinity and what is his place in histry.

Peace be unto you.

So in the spirit of presentin new cultural offerings on the JJ, I'd like to open it up to y'all fo discussion or any question y'all may have on the nature of the Rastafari and whether y'all hold the notion of HIM the Emperor Halie Selassie's divinity and what is his place in histry.

Peace be unto you.

I'll play. Salassie was not a god, because there's no such thing as god. He may have been a prophet though.

I won't pretend to know anything about Rastafarians except I've heard of Bob Marley and have smoked a shitload of weed. On the one hand, I can't stand the reggae music. On the other hand I love weed. As far as sacraments go weed is pretty much the balls.

Regarding the most important person of the 20th century, that 's a tough call and very much a matter of perspective. Where do you start? How do you compare the guy who developed the polio vaccine with the guy who built Auschwitz? How do you compare Ghandi and Mandela? What about someone like Bill Gates, who revolutionized the way human beings live and in addition has created a philanthropic organization that will improve the lives of millions over hundeds of years? What about all the joy Justin Beiber brings to people's lives? Is that even quantifiable?

That said, I think I'd go with Lenin. He was directly responsible for the enslavement and murder of hundreds of millions of people: Soviet citizens, the peoples the Soviets enslaved in Eastern Europe, Africa, and South America, and the victims who were slaughtered world wide in furtherance of Soviet ideology. I think Mao makes the list. Pope Paul 2. Hitler. Churchill. Dark horses: Oppenheimer (Einstein, whoever) ; Henry Ford; Sigmund Freud. 

Quote from: Choz4Life on January 21, 2013, 08:46:21 PM

So in the spirit of presentin new cultural offerings on the JJ, I'd like to open it up to y'all fo discussion or any question y'all may have on the nature of the Rastafari and whether y'all hold the notion of HIM the Emperor Halie Selassie's divinity and what is his place in histry.

Peace be unto you.

I'll play. Salassie was not a god, because there's no such thing as god. He may have been a prophet though.

I won't pretend to know anything about Rastafarians except I've heard of Bob Marley and have smoked a shitload of weed. On the one hand, I can't stand the reggae music. On the other hand I love weed. As far as sacraments go weed is pretty much the balls.

Regarding the most important person of the 20th century, that 's a tough call and very much a matter of perspective. Where do you start? How do you compare the guy who developed the polio vaccine with the guy who built Auschwitz? How do you compare Ghandi and Mandela? What about someone like Bill Gates, who revolutionized the way human beings live and in addition has created a philanthropic organization that will improve the lives of millions over hundeds of years? What about all the joy Justin Beiber brings to people's lives? Is that even quantifiable?

That said, I think I'd go with Lenin. He was directly responsible for the enslavement and murder of hundreds of millions of people: Soviet citizens, the peoples the Soviets enslaved in Eastern Europe, Africa, and South America, and the victims who were slaughtered world wide in furtherance of Soviet ideology. I think Mao makes the list. Pope Paul 2. Hitler. Churchill. Dark horses: Oppenheimer (Einstein, whoever) ; Henry Ford; Sigmund Freud.

After all that weed you can say there is no god?  Sure you inhaled enough?  Actually a little Reggae never hurt anyone and how could you leave Chris Mullin off your list?

As alway, Foad bringin the conversation to the forefront wit introduction of contrary ideas. Much welcomed.

He also bring up an interest in the herb, which I figure would be brought up soon enuf. We will delve into a discussion of that later in the session on its place within religious culture of the Rastafari. 

That said, I think I'd go with Lenin. He was directly responsible for the enslavement and murder of hundreds of millions of people: Soviet citizens, the peoples the Soviets enslaved in Eastern Europe, Africa, and South America, and the victims who were slaughtered world wide in furtherance of Soviet ideology. I think Mao makes the list. Pope Paul 2. Hitler. Churchill. Dark horses: Oppenheimer (Einstein, whoever) ; Henry Ford; Sigmund Freud. 

Since the 20th Cent was straight up the bloodiest 100 year of humankind, I can see your nomination. If we take the three great wars as in WWI begat WWII, which begat the Cold War, then do we nominate some peep like Gavrilo Princip, assasin of Archduke Ferdinand. Or does he really matter? One could argue successfully that WWI woulda likely broken out whether or not the brother took a shot on the Latin Bridge.

The question posed: would the October Revolution have occured if they was no Lenin? Was czarist Russia ripe for revolution regardless of leader?

Since the 20th Cent was straight up the bloodiest 100 year of humankind, I can see your nomination. If we take the three great wars as in WWI begat WWII, which begat the Cold War, then do we nominate some peep like Gavrilo Princip, assasin of Archduke Ferdinand. Or does he really matter? One could argue successfully that WWI woulda likely broken out whether or not the brother took a shot on the Latin Bridge.

The question posed: would the October Revolution have occured if they was no Lenin? Was czarist Russia ripe for revolution regardless of leader?

Its interesting that you mention Princip because I almost threw his name out there. It seemed frivolous though because wars are inevitable and especially that one. It's kind of like saying that Hitler's mother was the most important person of the 19th century.

Regarding Russia, a revolution would likely have occured eventually: whatever can be destroyed is, sooner or later. Whether it was relatively bloodless like the one that created the US or an orgy of carnage like there was everywhere else is debatable. What's not arguable is the effect Lenin had on the track that Soviet history took - in the use of terror as a political instrument and in the favor and power he bestowed on Stalin.

Lenin to Stalin transition is open to debate from what I have read,  Derzhinsky and Trotsky outplayed by Stalin who as General Secretary of the Party was in the position of awarding patronage to those who would back him.

Quote from: Choz4Life on January 21, 2013, 08:46:21 PM

So in the spirit of presentin new cultural offerings on the JJ, I'd like to open it up to y'all fo discussion or any question y'all may have on the nature of the Rastafari and whether y'all hold the notion of HIM the Emperor Halie Selassie's divinity and what is his place in histry.

Peace be unto you.

I'll play. Salassie was not a god, because there's no such thing as god. He may have been a prophet though.

I won't pretend to know anything about Rastafarians except I've heard of Bob Marley and have smoked a shitload of weed. On the one hand, I can't stand the reggae music. On the other hand I love weed. As far as sacraments go weed is pretty much the balls.

Regarding the most important person of the 20th century, that 's a tough call and very much a matter of perspective. Where do you start? How do you compare the guy who developed the polio vaccine with the guy who built Auschwitz? How do you compare Ghandi and Mandela? What about someone like Bill Gates, who revolutionized the way human beings live and in addition has created a philanthropic organization that will improve the lives of millions over hundeds of years? What about all the joy Justin Beiber brings to people's lives? Is that even quantifiable?

That said, I think I'd go with Lenin. He was directly responsible for the enslavement and murder of hundreds of millions of people: Soviet citizens, the peoples the Soviets enslaved in Eastern Europe, Africa, and South America, and the victims who were slaughtered world wide in furtherance of Soviet ideology. I think Mao makes the list. Pope Paul 2. Hitler. Churchill. Dark horses: Oppenheimer (Einstein, whoever) ; Henry Ford; Sigmund Freud. 

brilliant!

Lenin to Stalin transition is open to debate from what I have read,  Derzhinsky and Trotsky outplayed by Stalin who as General Secretary of the Party was in the position of awarding patronage to those who would back him.

The short answer is I don't believe what you've read. Leftist academics denied Stalin was a barbarian even after the pact with Hitler. They denied Hiss was a spy until the release of the Verona papers. They to this day deny the existence of well documented and massively organized Soviet inflitration into every facet of american society - the arts, labor unions, the government - and lionize those who countenanced it - eg FDR - or particpated in it - eg the Hollywood 10. They deny every evil truth about fascism. Stalin though is a problem, because there's 60 million corpses to explain away. They rehabilitate the mass murderer Lenin by positing a break with the mass murderer Stalin to save for themselves the lie of moral equivalence: it's not the totalitarian system that's bad, it's the way the totalitarian system was implemented.

Anyway even if what you say is true - that Stalin succeeded Lenin because "as General Secretary of the Party was in the position of awarding patronage." Who had Stalin appointed General Secretary? Lenin.

"Lenin ... encountered difficulties pushing his policies through and decided to give his reliable ally, Stalin, more power. With the help of Kamenev, Lenin successfully had Stalin appointed to the post of General Secretary on April 3, 1922." -- The Gospel According to Wikipedia.

Which makes your alternative explanation proof of my hypothesis.

I believe that's mate.

With all due respect to the Kremlin think tank debate I'd prefer to go with people whose accomplishments carried over to the next century rather than the collapse of the USSR.  I'll take FDR (and his wife) to any and all of the above and feel more justified with every SS check and Medicare allowance I receive.  I also recall the many days I spent on the Bethpage Black and think how good things can come from bad circumstances.  To me it's no contest but I admit to a personal bias that will last until the knuckleheads in charge eventually screw up a very good thing.

With all due respect to the Kremlin think tank debate I'd prefer to go with people whose accomplishments carried over to the next century rather than the collapse of the USSR.  I'll take FDR (and his wife) to any and all of the above and feel more justified with every SS check and Medicare allowance I receive.  I also recall the many days I spent on the Bethpage Black and think how good things can come from bad circumstances.  To me it's no contest but I admit to a personal bias that will last until the knuckleheads in charge eventually screw up a very good thing.

The matter under discussion was who was the most important person of the 20th century, not who was prescient enough to figure you'd end up on the dole.

PS genocide > golf

Quote from: bobre45 on January 23, 2013, 11:34:53 AM

With all due respect to the Kremlin think tank debate I'd prefer to go with people whose accomplishments carried over to the next century rather than the collapse of the USSR.  I'll take FDR (and his wife) to any and all of the above and feel more justified with every SS check and Medicare allowance I receive.  I also recall the many days I spent on the Bethpage Black and think how good things can come from bad circumstances.  To me it's no contest but I admit to a personal bias that will last until the knuckleheads in charge eventually screw up a very good thing.

The matter under discussion was who was the most important person of the 20th century, not who was prescient enough to figure you'd end up on the dole.

PS genocide > golf

When you contribute as much as I have to the system a reasonable return is not an unreasonable expectation.  It's not like I had a choice.  We just had an election and I'm pretty sure the majority would laugh at some of the names you've been bandying about.  My candidate also did quite a bit about genocide while managing to fit in quite a few public works projects that continue to serve the citizenry.  I take it you don't play golf.  That's your problem for sure.

When you contribute as much as I have to the system a reasonable return is not an unreasonable expectation.  It's not like I had a choice.

I agree that Roosevelt implemented a mandatory program that restricts the liberty of the citizenry by using the force of government to confiscate private property for the citizenry's own good. I disagree that that your getting paid back is the most important innovation of the past century.

We just had an election and I'm pretty sure the majority would laugh at some of the names you've been bandying about.

As usual it didn't take you long to descend into incoherence. I'm not sure what relevance the election has to with this thread and certainly don't care what the majority of democratic voters laugh at.

My candidate also did quite a bit about genocide

Actually your candidate did next to nothing to alleviate the murder of European Jews and in fact built his own concentration camps here at home to intern US citizens merely on the basis of their race.

Beware the Poughkeepsie gambit.  Outcome does not prove causality.  Too suggest that Uncle Felix or Mr. Bronstein were not equally capable at amassing body counts is to deny historical facts.  Stalin won, was played by German intelligence in the military purges and probably moved to a psychotic level of paranoia leading up to his death.  Lenin has been revealed to be the lead player in the use of executions as a method of policy in the beginning of the Soviet era, but that does not mean he passed that role to Stalin.  When I am back up North and finish reading it myself, I can try and get the tome on the KGB that i have been reading, in proximity to your very observant self. (The defector co-author whose name I forget, had the misfortune of it coming out just before, 1987, the Soviet collapse, but it documents Russian secret police functions going back to Peter the Great, including their extensive use of infiltration and agent provocateurs.

Quote from: bobre45 on January 23, 2013, 02:13:28 PM

When you contribute as much as I have to the system a reasonable return is not an unreasonable expectation.  It's not like I had a choice.

I agree that Roosevelt implemented a mandatory program that restricts the liberty of the citizenry by using the force of government to confiscate private property for the citizenry's own good. I disagree that that your getting paid back is the most important innovation of the past century.

Quote

We just had an election and I'm pretty sure the majority would laugh at some of the names you've been bandying about.

As usual it didn't take you long to descend into incoherence. I'm not sure what relevance the election has to with this thread and certainly don't care what the majority of democratic voters laugh at.

Quote

My candidate also did quite a bit about genocide

Actually your candidate did next to nothing to alleviate the murder of European Jews and in fact built his own concentration camps here at home to intern US citizens merely on the basis of their race.

No, I'd count recovery from the depression and our emergence as still the only legitimate superpower in the world as two biggies.  Entering and winning WW2 was also pretty cool.  Now another democrat rescues us from a republican boondoggle and you're discounting it.  Hey buddy you LOST!  Deal with it.   

Was watching Charlie Rose on NPR and discussants of the Israeli election were talking about Netanyahu finding a Nixon to China moment in dealing with the Palistinians.  I bring it up because I keep hoping for Obama to have a Nixon to China moment in terms of ineffective domestic spending that not only doesn't work, but damages the individual and social fabric.  Strongly favor locking up the dingbat left and the dingbat right on an island with all the assault weapons they want and let the rest of us get back to building the country

  Happy Birthday Bob Marley!

 Praise Jah !

I thought this was the name of a Cereal