3 Years into the new era how would you judge the Lavin hire?

Quote from: DFF6 on June 05, 2013, 11:16:33 AM

Quote from: derk on June 05, 2013, 11:05:48 AM

Quote from: we are sju on June 04, 2013, 04:35:36 PM

Lavin-1st 3 seasons
1 NCAA tourney game
1 NIT appearance
1 missed season

Jarvis
1 Elite 8
1 2nd round NCAA
1 under .500 season

Mahoney
1 second round NCAA
2 terrible seasons

Fran
1 under .500 season
1 NCAA tourney game
 Fired

If you judge according to what he has done so far he is behind Jarvis and on Fran, Mahoney level. So basically it does not tell us much.

You cannot judge what he has done so far in comparison to Jarvis etc because he started so much further behind then they did. Anyone who doesn't think so has a short memory of how close this program was to extinction under Norm. And yet one more victory here or there and Norm would've been given another 5 year run. All that angst thanks to people like oldfan and US congress among others, who have disappeared the last 3 years.

Great point.  Lavin has had to resurrect the program and then make it successful, the other coaches listed just had to keep the ball rolling.  Two very different positions to be in.

Jarvis started w Frans players. Loaded ,full squad. MCD AAs etc. He faded out w time and nearly destroyed the program. Lavin is far superior than Jarvis and has the program on an upward trend.

Another key differentiator between Lavin and the prior coaches is that Lavin had to recruit under ominous cloud of the entire Big East almost (and basically did indeed) fall apart.  He's been able to bring in great talent despite the constant rumors and innuendos regarding the Big East's uncertain future (and rumors surrounding his own health).  He's done well under those conditions.  Mahoney, Fran and Jarvis did not have to recruit against that.   (That being said, Norm had to try to recruit after a scandal - which ain't no piece of cake either, but Lavin is having much more success than Norm)

Lav has been great for St. John's - he's completely turned around the outlook of this program.  I had no hope before and now I have lots of hope - which is why I was one those that gave him the 'overwhelming success' grade in this survey.     A+ for Lavs.

Quote from: ras on June 05, 2013, 11:35:23 AM

Quote from: DFF6 on June 05, 2013, 11:16:33 AM

Quote from: derk on June 05, 2013, 11:05:48 AM

Quote from: we are sju on June 04, 2013, 04:35:36 PM

Lavin-1st 3 seasons
1 NCAA tourney game
1 NIT appearance
1 missed season

Jarvis
1 Elite 8
1 2nd round NCAA
1 under .500 season

Mahoney
1 second round NCAA
2 terrible seasons

Fran
1 under .500 season
1 NCAA tourney game
 Fired

If you judge according to what he has done so far he is behind Jarvis and on Fran, Mahoney level. So basically it does not tell us much.

You cannot judge what he has done so far in comparison to Jarvis etc because he started so much further behind then they did. Anyone who doesn't think so has a short memory of how close this program was to extinction under Norm. And yet one more victory here or there and Norm would've been given another 5 year run. All that angst thanks to people like oldfan and US congress among others, who have disappeared the last 3 years.

Great point.  Lavin has had to resurrect the program and then make it successful, the other coaches listed just had to keep the ball rolling.  Two very different positions to be in.

Jarvis started w Frans players. Loaded ,full squad. MCD AAs etc. He faded out w time and nearly destroyed the program. Lavin is far superior than Jarvis and has the program on an upward trend.

Another key differentiator between Lavin and the prior coaches is that Lavin had to recruit under ominous cloud of the entire Big East almost (and basically did indeed) fall apart.  He's been able to bring in great talent despite the constant rumors and innuendos regarding the Big East's uncertain future (and rumors surrounding his own health).  He's done well under those conditions.  Mahoney, Fran and Jarvis did not have to recruit against that.   (That being said, Norm had to try to recruit after a scandal - which ain't no piece of cake either, but Lavin is having much more success than Norm)

Lav has been great for St. John's - he's completely turned around the outlook of this program.  I had no hope before and now I have lots of hope - which is why I was one those that gave him the 'overwhelming success' grade in this survey.     A+ for Lavs.

What you say is true. But cant give A+ until we get the results on the court. I give the coaching staff an A+ for the 1st year. But the question is how much stradegy and game plans came from Dunlap? Years 2 and 3 we had many issues. Lavin may indeed earn his A+ in the future. Time will tell. I give him a B.

The first year was amazing.  The last two years were expected with such roster upheaval.  This coming season was always the season any rational fan expected for the tides to turn. Coach Lavin has continually cited to THIS coming season--even when he was hired. 

I am very excited.  I think we'll be a Sweet 16 caliber team and I think we'll be even better the following season in spite of the losses of Sanchez and GG.

  I agree with everything you have said....except...

 I think there is a better than average possibility that after this season we lose not only GG and Sanchez, but Sampson, Harrison ( if he's here this year), Obekpa, and even Jordan. 
 
 Before everyone says I'm nuts and no way these kids are ready,  let me say that I agree.  But that doesn't make a damn bit of difference.  I think you are being naive if you don't think at least one or two underclassmen will bolt.  The majority said the same thing about Moe, that he was leaving too early. 

 All that being said, I'm not going to worry about that now.   Just praying that we have an injury, drama free season this year.

Quote from: Marillac on June 05, 2013, 05:12:38 PM

The first year was amazing.  The last two years were expected with such roster upheaval.  This coming season was always the season any rational fan expected for the tides to turn. Coach Lavin has continually cited to THIS coming season--even when he was hired. 

I am very excited.  I think we'll be a Sweet 16 caliber team and I think we'll be even better the following season in spite of the losses of Sanchez and GG.

  I agree with everything you have said....except...

 I think there is a better than average possibility that after this season we lose not only GG and Sanchez, but Sampson, Harrison ( if he's here this year), Obekpa, and even Jordan. 
 
 Before everyone says I'm nuts and no way these kids are ready,  let me say that I agree.  But that doesn't make a damn bit of difference.  I think you are being naive if you don't think at least one or two underclassmen will bolt.  The majority said the same thing about Moe, that he was leaving too early. 

 All that being said, I'm not going to worry about that now.   Just praying that we have an injury, drama free season this year.

If Sampson, Obekpa and Jordan are all gone after this upcoming season - it most likely means the team had just great great run in the NCAAs.   I'll sign up for that any day.

I agree with you on the drama free season. That would be nice for a change.   With regard to you on the injury bug - we should have a deep enough of a team to withstand some moderate injuries during season - which is also a nice change.

What you say is true. But cant give A+ until we get the results on the court. I give the coaching staff an A+ for the 1st year. But the question is how much stradegy and game plans came from Dunlap? Years 2 and 3 we had many issues. Lavin may indeed earn his A+ in the future. Time will tell. I give him a B.

Don't think it's fair to not give Lavin the credit for the teams success in Year 1. Dunlap was the HC in year 2 and it didn't look like a well coached team. Granted they were freshmen, but that's all we have to go on. We improved from year 2 minus Dunlap, our best player in Harkless, our only low post presence in Gift, and still a heavy reliance on freshmen in JK and CO. I believe he is an under rated coach. Successful hire, considering where we were as a program, don't believe we could have done better.

Quote from: Marillac on June 05, 2013, 05:12:38 PM

The first year was amazing.  The last two years were expected with such roster upheaval.  This coming season was always the season any rational fan expected for the tides to turn. Coach Lavin has continually cited to THIS coming season--even when he was hired. 

I am very excited.  I think we'll be a Sweet 16 caliber team and I think we'll be even better the following season in spite of the losses of Sanchez and GG.

  I agree with everything you have said....except...

 I think there is a better than average possibility that after this season we lose not only GG and Sanchez, but Sampson, Harrison ( if he's here this year), Obekpa, and even Jordan. 
 
 Before everyone says I'm nuts and no way these kids are ready,  let me say that I agree.  But that doesn't make a damn bit of difference.  I think you are being naive if you don't think at least one or two underclassmen will bolt.  The majority said the same thing about Moe, that he was leaving too early. 

 All that being said, I'm not going to worry about that now.   Just praying that we have an injury, drama free season this year.

I agree with you Boo, I don't think we'll lose all three, but some underclassmen will bolt.   

Also, I mostly agree with Marillac except to say that this past season wasn't expected.   A lot of us wanted to see a little more from the program in year three.   I understand the reasons why.  But I think you generalized a little too much.   

Regardless, next year is certainly one we seem well prepared for.
And ras, I give both Norma and coach Lavin credit for the 2010 success.   You can't not compliment coach for getting that team to far exceed any success they had achieved prior.   He got them to gel.   He deserves credit for that. 

Quote from: boo3 on June 05, 2013, 06:02:58 PM

Quote from: Marillac on June 05, 2013, 05:12:38 PM

The first year was amazing.  The last two years were expected with such roster upheaval.  This coming season was always the season any rational fan expected for the tides to turn. Coach Lavin has continually cited to THIS coming season--even when he was hired. 

I am very excited.  I think we'll be a Sweet 16 caliber team and I think we'll be even better the following season in spite of the losses of Sanchez and GG.

  I agree with everything you have said....except...

 I think there is a better than average possibility that after this season we lose not only GG and Sanchez, but Sampson, Harrison ( if he's here this year), Obekpa, and even Jordan. 
 
 Before everyone says I'm nuts and no way these kids are ready,  let me say that I agree.  But that doesn't make a damn bit of difference.  I think you are being naive if you don't think at least one or two underclassmen will bolt.  The majority said the same thing about Moe, that he was leaving too early. 

 All that being said, I'm not going to worry about that now.   Just praying that we have an injury, drama free season this year.

I agree with you Boo, I don't think we'll lose all three, but some underclassmen will bolt.   

Also, I mostly agree with Marillac except to say that this past season wasn't expected.   A lot of us wanted to see a little more from the program in year three.   I understand the reasons why.  But I think you generalized a little too much.   

Regardless, next year is certainly one we seem well prepared for.
And ras, I give both Norma and coach Lavin credit for the 2010 success.   You can't not compliment coach for getting that team to far exceed any success they had achieved prior.   He got them to gel.   He deserves credit for that.

I never said Lavin didnt deserve credit. I gave the staff an A+. Dunlap is a coaching genius,ran practices and also had a big hand in the teams success. Last year it was hard to judge
 Lavins coaching skills, Father died,DLO problems,no Gift, Sanchez nor PG[except a few games w a healthy Branch].. Next year we have the pieces in place and we will really be able to judge Lavins coaching expertize,not counting recruiting and PR.

  If this is a performance review of Results,i.e W/L record which is the ultimate measurement, Steve gets a incomplete thru 3 seasons.

  Establishing goals, setting yardsticks to measure, etc take in a wide array of components..

  Lavin's players are skilled athletically without question and he has competed well for those he's recruited. Winning most recruiting battles.

However, we've seen marginal BB IQ, poor shooting, awful ft shooting and limited  effective defense.  But, the talent level suggests improvement is possible in most of these categories. This season will be a bellwether to measure against.

 Lavin needs this year's team to finish in the top 3-4 of the new conference and make a statement in the BE tourney and NCAA'S, going beyond a one and done.

  If that is accomplished , come next March, Lavin's grade will improve to near top of tier performance.. Getting these players to achieve those team goals will be his objective.

Been saying I'd like to see Lav add one or two tough four year players to prevent the roster shortfalls we've been seeing.  His first year we saw the value of experienced kids and we were a break or two away from real success.  The one and done guys put a lot of pressure on recruiting and destabilize the core.  If we could rack up a couple of winning seasons things would come together all around.  Even now after the coming season we have a ton of question marks.  Kids want to play in the post season and they'll sign if there are some assurances in that respect.

Branch, Pointer, and Greene are all solid 4 year guys I think. 

When you build a team from scratch, the roster is going to be jumbled for a few years, it impossible to avoid.

Plus Jones and Balamou will be here 4 years. I think both will be pretty good contributors come year 3 if they stick around. We will need the experience in 2014 and 2015.

Been saying I'd like to see Lav add one or two tough four year players to prevent the roster shortfalls we've been seeing.  His first year we saw the value of experienced kids and we were a break or two away from real success.  The one and done guys put a lot of pressure on recruiting and destabilize the core.  If we could rack up a couple of winning seasons things would come together all around.  Even now after the coming season we have a ton of question marks.  Kids want to play in the post season and they'll sign if there are some assurances in that respect.

Everyone in college basketball has this problem.  If you're too successful, or bring in too much talent; you run the risk of losing a bunch of kids to the nba.   Stability just doesn't exist anymore.   You can't plan more than 2 seasons ahead. 
A program that doesn't lose 1/4 of it's roster each year to graduation, the nba, or transfer; is rare.   

Quote from: bobre45 on June 07, 2013, 01:59:43 PM

Been saying I'd like to see Lav add one or two tough four year players to prevent the roster shortfalls we've been seeing.  His first year we saw the value of experienced kids and we were a break or two away from real success.  The one and done guys put a lot of pressure on recruiting and destabilize the core.  If we could rack up a couple of winning seasons things would come together all around.  Even now after the coming season we have a ton of question marks.  Kids want to play in the post season and they'll sign if there are some assurances in that respect.

Everyone in college basketball has this problem.  If you're too successful, or bring in too much talent; you run the risk of losing a bunch of kids to the nba.   Stability just doesn't exist anymore.   You can't plan more than 2 seasons ahead. 
A program that doesn't lose 1/4 of it's roster each year to graduation, the nba, or transfer; is rare.

Plenty of programs don't have many players going to the NBA.. That said, the elite programs do . Look at Kentucky,etc.  Great players don't want to stay four years. They want the money. Ill take players like Mo ,Sampson and Rysheed every year. I ll give you the point that all programs have transfers, and the elite programs have both problems,  However,they have great recruiting classes every year. I like a mixture of elite underclassman and 4 year veterans. Looking at our talent we do seem to be getting there.