Game 29: Georgetown

Quote from: mjdinkins on February 28, 2017, 04:41:28 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 28, 2017, 03:41:55 PM

Quote from: Marillac on February 28, 2017, 02:29:19 PM

Ellison is a very poor defender and is probably right there with Amar for worst defender on the team.

He's the best of the 4 guards.  I rewatched the Gtown game and Sham displayed an indifference to defending that was disturbing.  The coaching staff also disagrees with you.

I would say, he and Mussini are the best of the group.  Some games one may look better than the other, but I'd give the slight edge to Ellison.  Outside of garnering steals, Ponds and LoVett are quite lackadaisical when it comes to defense.  I don't wanna hear anything about their size, as their size doesn't have anything to do with staying in front of the offensive player.  There are times they don't even look like they're trying. 

Yea sometimes those guys are like cornerbacks who always try to jump routes. Sometimes they get a pick 6 but others they let up 6. Stat lines look good with the steals but don't tell the whole story.

I do think Ponds + Lovett have elite hand speed defensively. In time and with real buy in they can be very good defenders.

For Lovett this is first time he's ever played in structured environment. None of his travel or school teams had real coaching. It was pure freestyle. I've actually been impressed with how well the staff has reined him in.

I said at the beginning of the season that both players had quick hands (more so, Ponds than LoVett, though).  If they both dug down deep, and truly played defense, then they could really be a terror on the defensive end.

By the way, I believe you, in reference to LoVett's AAU team.  I've seen my share of AAU teams who looked similar.

Quote from: mjdinkins on February 28, 2017, 04:41:28 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 28, 2017, 03:41:55 PM

Quote from: Marillac on February 28, 2017, 02:29:19 PM

Ellison is a very poor defender and is probably right there with Amar for worst defender on the team.

He's the best of the 4 guards.  I rewatched the Gtown game and Sham displayed an indifference to defending that was disturbing.  The coaching staff also disagrees with you.

I would say, he and Mussini are the best of the group.  Some games one may look better than the other, but I'd give the slight edge to Ellison.  Outside of garnering steals, Ponds and LoVett are quite lackadaisical when it comes to defense.  I don't wanna hear anything about their size, as their size doesn't have anything to do with staying in front of the offensive player.  There are times they don't even look like they're trying. 

Owens is a leading shot blocker because our guards don't and won't defend

That's slightly a reason he's a leading shotblocker, but it's mainly he's a good shotblocker.  Heck!  Those Georgetown team's were great as a unit, and Ewing, Mourning, and Mutumbo were always amongst the leaders in shotblocking.

But, I definitely agree with you, in regards to the blah defensive play of our backcourt.

With you on this Dave (coupled with your comment below on the AAU scene).

Quote from: Marco Baldi on February 28, 2017, 04:52:38 PM

Quote from: mjdinkins on February 28, 2017, 04:41:28 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 28, 2017, 03:41:55 PM

Quote from: Marillac on February 28, 2017, 02:29:19 PM

Ellison is a very poor defender and is probably right there with Amar for worst defender on the team.

He's the best of the 4 guards.  I rewatched the Gtown game and Sham displayed an indifference to defending that was disturbing.  The coaching staff also disagrees with you.

I would say, he and Mussini are the best of the group.  Some games one may look better than the other, but I'd give the slight edge to Ellison.  Outside of garnering steals, Ponds and LoVett are quite lackadaisical when it comes to defense.  I don't wanna hear anything about their size, as their size doesn't have anything to do with staying in front of the offensive player.  There are times they don't even look like they're trying. 

Been saying this for awhile. Lovett and Ponds give little effort on d, sick and tired of hearing that they are freshman etc. Its the end of the year, they've logged a ton of minutes.  Owens is a leading shot blocker because our guards don't and won't defend

I think like most aspects of the team its been inconsistent. I've seen stretches where Lovett and Ponds have been all over the ball and jumping passing lanes. Other times it's slow close outs and unnecessary gambles which results in blow bys.

I think it's less "little effort" and more "inconsistent effort" and do think that consistency develops with maturity. There are things these guys got away with in high school that doesn't fly in college. However I agree it's one of those things you don't want to make excuses for and should be corrected sooner than later.

Redstorm212: I never said Ellison was the worst player to ever play at St. John's. I said he was the worst player getting 25 minutes a game to ever play at St. John's. There is a difference and, I stand by that statement.

Even that statement isn't fair. Ellison is a mess lately, although he was better on Saturday than he's been in previous games. Cedric Jackson was beyond awful for two years. Ellison was better than him. That said, Ellison may be struggling now, but after sitting out a season, Cedric Jackson made the NCAA tournament with Cleveland State, and then actually played in the league. Some guys are going to projects. I hope the kid doesn't leave just because he's not the go to guy right now, but it wouldn't shock me if he did.

Are our guys the only ones that play aau? Providence had a new team, how come they don't routinely give up 50 plus points in the 1st half? These excuses are ridiculous . Young teams occasionally have bad games defensively. The current St. John's team rarely plays well defensively .
Their is enough physical ability on our roster to compete in the big east on most nights. Losing to creighton on the road is expected and understood . Giving up 90 plus (which I expect) is terrible and their is no excuse for that.

Been saying this for awhile. Lovett and Ponds give little effort on d, sick and tired of hearing that they are freshman etc. Its the end of the year, they've logged a ton of minutes.  Owens is a leading shot blocker because our guards don't and won't defend

You might be sick of hearing it but it's true. The last thing most players learn is that they have to bring it every night and especially on defense and it's especially true for players who've gotten where they are because of their prowess on the other side of the ball. Because they never had to play defense before, because they were so far ahead of everyone else offensively that their defensive shortcomings didn't matter. Ponds didn't have to stop anyone in high school because (presumably, I never heard of him before November) no one could stop him.

Defense is especially where having a lack of roster continuity is problematic. If half the roster is upperclassmen they've learned already that you can win in other ways when the ball isn't going in the basket and they can impart that to their younger team mates. Jim Boeheim wouldn't be in the HOF if he has to teach 12 players the 3-2 every year tabula rasa. The problem is that holdovers like Alibagofsandwiches can't teach anyone anything because he knows nothing. That's not an excuse for the underclassmen's defensive shortcomings - which are real and palpable and detrimental to the team's progress - but it's a lot to to expect to expect them to not have a learning curve. If next year this time the team has the same shortcomings, that's a coaching issue or a character issue. Right now it's a youth issue.

 

Huh?  Providence's has 4 guys who play significant minutes.  Three of them, and their three best players, are juniors who were on the team the past few years. And their fourth is also a junior transferring from a big program. 

Are our guys the only ones that play aau? Providence had a new team, how come they don't routinely give up 50 plus points in the 1st half? These excuses are ridiculous . Young teams occasionally have bad games defensively. The current St. John's team rarely plays well defensively .
Their is enough physical ability on our roster to compete in the big east on most nights. Losing to creighton on the road is expected and understood . Giving up 90 plus (which I expect) is terrible and their is no excuse for that.

Huh?  Providence's has 4 guys who play significant minutes.  Three of them, and their three best players, are juniors who were on the team the past few years. And their fourth is also a junior transferring from a big program. 

Quote from: TONYD3 on February 28, 2017, 06:19:21 PM

Are our guys the only ones that play aau? Providence had a new team, how come they don't routinely give up 50 plus points in the 1st half? These excuses are ridiculous . Young teams occasionally have bad games defensively. The current St. John's team rarely plays well defensively .
Their is enough physical ability on our roster to compete in the big east on most nights. Losing to creighton on the road is expected and understood . Giving up 90 plus (which I expect) is terrible and their is no excuse for that.

I just started a post saying the same thing and figured it wasn't worth it and deleted it. Four juniors averaging more than 27 minute a game and one freshman comprises a "new" team. Haters gonna hate. nice persons gonna nice person.

Quote from: longtimefan on February 28, 2017, 03:01:13 PM

Redstorm212: I never said Ellison was the worst player to ever play at St. John's. I said he was the worst player getting 25 minutes a game to ever play at St. John's. There is a difference and, I stand by that statement.

Even that statement isn't fair. Ellison is a mess lately, although he was better on Saturday than he's been in previous games. Cedric Jackson was beyond awful for two years. Ellison was better than him. That said, Ellison may be struggling now, but after sitting out a season, Cedric Jackson made the NCAA tournament with Cleveland State, and then actually played in the league. Some guys are going to projects. I hope the kid doesn't leave just because he's not the go to guy right now, but it wouldn't shock me if he did.

I was thinking the same thing. Unless we have a major defection, his minutes are going to definitely take a hit. I'm not sure how he will feel about being an upperclassman and have his minute dwindle.

I would say, he and Mussini are the best of the group. 

I would say he and Love it are the best of the group.  Fellini has definitely improved at it since last season and appears to be trying to make the best of what he's working with.  If Sham could become somewhat of a two way player...we're off to the races!

How manymore excuses can be made for not playing defense?

Quote from: mjdinkins on February 28, 2017, 04:41:28 PM

I would say, he and Mussini are the best of the group. 

I would say he and Love it are the best of the group.  Fellini has definitely improved at it since last season and appears to be trying to make the best of what he's working with.  If Sham could become somewhat of a two way player...we're off to the races!

Somewhat? Well considering he is first in the BE is steals..

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 28, 2017, 07:42:05 PM

Quote from: mjdinkins on February 28, 2017, 04:41:28 PM

I would say, he and Mussini are the best of the group. 

I would say he and Love it are the best of the group.  Fellini has definitely improved at it since last season and appears to be trying to make the best of what he's working with.  If Sham could become somewhat of a two way player...we're off to the races!

Somewhat? Well considering he is first in the BE is steals..

Good point.  That alone should definitely constitute somewhat.

It's just bothersome how a quick, athletic, diminutive player gets "blown by" so much in the man to man.

Quote from: Dave on February 28, 2017, 05:06:10 PM

Quote from: mjdinkins on February 28, 2017, 04:41:28 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 28, 2017, 03:41:55 PM

Quote from: Marillac on February 28, 2017, 02:29:19 PM

Ellison is a very poor defender and is probably right there with Amar for worst defender on the team.

He's the best of the 4 guards.  I rewatched the Gtown game and Sham displayed an indifference to defending that was disturbing.  The coaching staff also disagrees with you.

I would say, he and Mussini are the best of the group.  Some games one may look better than the other, but I'd give the slight edge to Ellison.  Outside of garnering steals, Ponds and LoVett are quite lackadaisical when it comes to defense.  I don't wanna hear anything about their size, as their size doesn't have anything to do with staying in front of the offensive player.  There are times they don't even look like they're trying. 

Yea sometimes those guys are like cornerbacks who always try to jump routes. Sometimes they get a pick 6 but others they let up 6. Stat lines look good with the steals but don't tell the whole story.

I do think Ponds + Lovett have elite hand speed defensively. In time and with real buy in they can be very good defenders.

For Lovett this is first time he's ever played in structured environment. None of his travel or school teams had real coaching. It was pure freestyle. I've actually been impressed with how well the staff has reined him in.

I said at the beginning of the season that both players had quick hands (more so, Ponds than LoVett, though).  If they both dug down deep, and truly played defense, then they could really be a terror on the defensive end.

By the way, I believe you, in reference to LoVett's AAU team.  I've seen my share of AAU teams who looked similar.

Quote from: Marco Baldi on February 28, 2017, 04:52:38 PM

Quote from: mjdinkins on February 28, 2017, 04:41:28 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 28, 2017, 03:41:55 PM

Quote from: Marillac on February 28, 2017, 02:29:19 PM

Ellison is a very poor defender and is probably right there with Amar for worst defender on the team.

He's the best of the 4 guards.  I rewatched the Gtown game and Sham displayed an indifference to defending that was disturbing.  The coaching staff also disagrees with you.

I would say, he and Mussini are the best of the group.  Some games one may look better than the other, but I'd give the slight edge to Ellison.  Outside of garnering steals, Ponds and LoVett are quite lackadaisical when it comes to defense.  I don't wanna hear anything about their size, as their size doesn't have anything to do with staying in front of the offensive player.  There are times they don't even look like they're trying. 

Owens is a leading shot blocker because our guards don't and won't defend

That's slightly a reason he's a leading shotblocker, but it's mainly he's a good shotblocker.  Heck!  Those Georgetown team's were great as a unit, and Ewing, Mourning, and Mutumbo were always amongst the leaders in shotblocking.

But, I definitely agree with you, in regards to the blah defensive play of our backcourt.

Unfortunate nature of travel ball. All games, no practice.

Competition however is so much higher than high school.

Are our guys the only ones that play aau? Providence had a new team, how come they don't routinely give up 50 plus points in the 1st half? These excuses are ridiculous . Young teams occasionally have bad games defensively. The current St. John's team rarely plays well defensively .
Their is enough physical ability on our roster to compete in the big east on most nights. Losing to creighton on the road is expected and understood . Giving up 90 plus (which I expect) is terrible and their is no excuse for that.

No but most team have better balance between Frosh to Senior. Experienced guys help learning curve and minimize gaps.

Quote from: Amaseinyourface2 on February 28, 2017, 07:50:00 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 28, 2017, 07:42:05 PM

Quote from: mjdinkins on February 28, 2017, 04:41:28 PM

I would say, he and Mussini are the best of the group. 

I would say he and Love it are the best of the group.  Fellini has definitely improved at it since last season and appears to be trying to make the best of what he's working with.  If Sham could become somewhat of a two way player...we're off to the races!

Somewhat? Well considering he is first in the BE is steals..

Good point.  That alone should definitely constitute somewhat.

It's just bothersome how a quick, athletic, diminutive player gets "blown by" so much in the man to man.

Absolutely

Quote from: Amaseinyourface2 on February 28, 2017, 07:50:00 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 28, 2017, 07:42:05 PM

Quote from: mjdinkins on February 28, 2017, 04:41:28 PM

I would say, he and Mussini are the best of the group. 

I would say he and Love it are the best of the group.  Fellini has definitely improved at it since last season and appears to be trying to make the best of what he's working with.  If Sham could become somewhat of a two way player...we're off to the races!

Somewhat? Well considering he is first in the BE is steals..

Good point.  That alone should definitely constitute somewhat.

It's just bothersome how a quick, athletic, diminutive player gets "blown by" so much in the man to man.

Just my opinion but I think staff enables some laziness on defense with switching 100% of the time.

1. You sag off your guy and don't run through or chase
2. Every coach in America knows St. John's does this and finds ways to exploit

How manymore excuses can be made for not playing defense?

Don't see them as excuses, more Iike reasons. Don't think anyone is deliberately giving them a pass. As others have noted, both are very capable of playing good defense and have, at times, demonstrated the necessary tenacity. Bottom line is until they are compelled to play legit defense for 40 minutes they will continue to take possessions off, gamble for steals etc.

Coaches need to make it part of the team MO and enforce it. Mullin and staff have demonstrated willingness to yank guys when they go off reservation. Unfortunately, he might run out of players if he did it every time it was warranted.

The absence of an on-court upper class leader with the gravitas to gather the troops when the wheels are falling off or get in someone's face when they aren't giving max effort on either side of the ball is a definite disadvantage.

Quote from: Marco Baldi on February 28, 2017, 07:48:14 PM

How manymore excuses can be made for not playing defense?

Don't see them as excuses, more Iike reasons. Don't think anyone is deliberately giving them a pass. As others have noted, both are very capable of playing good defense and have, at times, demonstrated the necessary tenacity. Bottom line is until they are compelled to play legit defense for 40 minutes they will continue to take possessions off, gamble for steals etc.

Coaches need to make it part of the team MO and enforce it. Mullin and staff have demonstrated willingness to yank guys when they go off reservation. Unfortunately, he might run out of players if he did it every time it was warranted.

The absence of an on-court upper class leader with the gravitas to gather the troops when the wheels are falling off or get in someone's face when they aren't giving max effort on either side of the ball is a definite disadvantage.

Exactly. It's not an attempt to justify poor play, it's an explanation for why the play is poor. Like if it snows out you wonder why there's water on the ground and someone helpfully points out that snowflakes are crystallized moisture from clouds that not an excuse for the flakes, it's a reason your feet are wet. That's why Iona pair of galoshes, because water is damp and I don't need that explained to me. Evidently though some people do, because basketball is hard.