New rule could hurt coaches, recruits

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New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« on: August 16, 2010, 11:37:12 AM »
Jermaine Sanders isn’t allowed to attend St. John’s.

Not because of insufficient grades or his parents wanting the Rice High standout to leave the distractions commonly associated with New York.

The NCAA has made the decision for him.

“I don’t think it’s fair,” Sanders said. “That’s where I really want to go. That’s where I would go — if I could.”

But Sanders isn’t able to because of a new rule the NCAA implemented this offseason in an attempt to limit “package deals.”


http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/NCAA-rule-on-package-deals-could-put-college-coaches-in-bind-081310
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 11:37:27 AM by mjdinkins »

Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2010, 12:12:17 PM »
If I am reading this right, Sanders could go to prep after his senior year and that would make it two years after his coach signed to work with the Johnnies.

Wods317

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Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2010, 12:22:44 PM »
This is a shame because this kid really wants to play here and that fact the Hicks is here is probably a factor but I think he wanted to a Johnny before that. I understand why the rule is in place but it just doesn't seem very fair for kids like Sanders or Jack who have a legit interest in SJU not because there old coach is here cant attend because some schools have made shady deals with players and coaches in the past. We will probably lose out on a pretty nice NYC kid here because of this rule.

Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2010, 12:38:47 PM »
NCAA is a joke...I have said it a million times!!! I-zay-ha Thomas can be allowed to coach an NCAA basketball team and have a consultant position with the NY Knicks. The NCAA said that this was ok!!!!!! The NBA stepped in and stopped it! I do like the rule that is preventing Sanders from coming to STJ. This has been abused 2 many times.

pmg911

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Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2010, 01:12:03 PM »
St. John's could have gotten around this rule by making Mo Hicks an official assistant coach and making someone else the DOBO.

They knew exactly what they were getting into wehn they hired Mo Hicks to be the DOBO.

Marillac

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Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2010, 02:00:26 PM »
NCAA is a joke...I have said it a million times!!! I-zay-ha Thomas can be allowed to coach an NCAA basketball team and have a consultant position with the NY Knicks. The NCAA said that this was ok!!!!!! The NBA stepped in and stopped it! I do like the rule that is preventing Sanders from coming to STJ. This has been abused 2 many times.

The rule in its current form is simply.  What would you say to a kid whose father was dying and incapable of traveling more than an hour or so and there is only one major school in the area? 

There is one local major school in NYC.  It's just not fair that Sanders can't even consider St. John's. 

TONYD3

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Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2010, 06:27:17 PM »
It sucks we cant get this kid, but it is a good rule.

Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2010, 07:11:45 PM »
I think if a recruit really wants to challenge this rule it will be overturned. Sanders was considering St. John's when Norm was here and the addition of Mo Hicks wasn't to seal the deal for Sanders either. I mean we brought in Mo Hicks because he is Mo Hicks.
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Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2010, 08:07:03 PM »
I think if a recruit really wants to challenge this rule it will be overturned. Sanders was considering St. John's when Norm was here and the addition of Mo Hicks wasn't to seal the deal for Sanders either. I mean we brought in Mo Hicks because he is Mo Hicks.

I agree, Dave.  I believe someone stated this a couple of months ago (I think it was Marillac).  Maybe, Sanders decides he really wanna don a Johnnies jersey and challenge it himself.

'Ya never know!

Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2010, 08:32:48 PM »
How can you deny a child his education of his choosing because of an adult who decided to take a job?

I understand the intention behind the rule and its to prevent the game from being corrupt but its very faulty too.
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Moose

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Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2010, 10:10:51 PM »
The DOBO should not be included as part of this rule.  A DOBO isn't an assistant but its still often not a position you just throw around.
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peter

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Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2010, 11:19:12 PM »
It's not a bad rule. Maybe the DOBO shouldn't be included, but that position could be a place to put a guy who doesn't have the coaching chops but has the players to follow him.  Come on.  You all know this happens.  And here in NY, there are 3 relatively major schools, with U Conn and the Philly schools nearby.  This isn't denying a player the chance at an education.

As PMG said, St. John's knew what they were gaining and losing by hiring Hicks at that position.  And Hicks knew as well.  Part of why Kadeem Jack and Sanders would come would be, in Jack's words in the article, because of the "familiar face."  Isn't that an advantage?  What's wrong with putting some restrictions on how you can hire those familiar faces?  If a college coach loses a pipeline for 2 years to hire a lower-level guy as a DOBO or assistant, is the coach they want to hire worthless?  He shouldn't be. 

Calling this a hardship is bull.  It's an annoyance.  And if it's such a big annoyance, the colleges need to hire these guys as full assistants or not at all.

Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2010, 11:25:02 PM »
what would be the ruling if saunders committed before hicks was hired, would the offer become null and void? or would it be allowed because he committed prior?

Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2010, 11:28:21 PM »
It's not a bad rule. Maybe the DOBO shouldn't be included, but that position could be a place to put a guy who doesn't have the coaching chops but has the players to follow him.  Come on.  You all know this happens.  And here in NY, there are 3 relatively major schools, with U Conn and the Philly schools nearby.  This isn't denying a player the chance at an education.

As PMG said, St. John's knew what they were gaining and losing by hiring Hicks at that position.  And Hicks knew as well.  Part of why Kadeem Jack and Sanders would come would be, in Jack's words in the article, because of the "familiar face."  Isn't that an advantage?  What's wrong with putting some restrictions on how you can hire those familiar faces?  If a college coach loses a pipeline for 2 years to hire a lower-level guy as a DOBO or assistant, is the coach they want to hire worthless?  He shouldn't be. 

Calling this a hardship is bull.  It's an annoyance.  And if it's such a big annoyance, the colleges need to hire these guys as full assistants or not at all.

i agree. it sucks when we happen to be on the other side of the rules, but if this wasn't a rule in place calipari would be hiring recruits parents as secretaries or whatever other positions he could offer them. it would be a revolving door.

Moose

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Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2010, 11:52:06 PM »
what would be the ruling if saunders committed before hicks was hired, would the offer become null and void? or would it be allowed because he committed prior?

It probably still would have raised eyebrows.
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Foad

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Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2010, 08:20:16 AM »
It's not a bad rule. Maybe the DOBO shouldn't be included, but that position could be a place to put a guy who doesn't have the coaching chops but has the players to follow him.  Come on.  You all know this happens.  And here in NY, there are 3 relatively major schools, with U Conn and the Philly schools nearby.  This isn't denying a player the chance at an education.

As PMG said, St. John's knew what they were gaining and losing by hiring Hicks at that position.  And Hicks knew as well.  Part of why Kadeem Jack and Sanders would come would be, in Jack's words in the article, because of the "familiar face."  Isn't that an advantage?  What's wrong with putting some restrictions on how you can hire those familiar faces?  If a college coach loses a pipeline for 2 years to hire a lower-level guy as a DOBO or assistant, is the coach they want to hire worthless?  He shouldn't be. 

Calling this a hardship is bull.  It's an annoyance.  And if it's such a big annoyance, the colleges need to hire these guys as full assistants or not at all.

But you're mischaracterizing the issue. I agree that it's not a hardship for the university: SJU entered into an agreement with Hicks knowing that the employment contract would effect its recruiting in some manner. Fine. And clearly the contract is in Hicks' benefit, or at least he thinks it is. The problem with the rule - leaving aside antitrust law, because I think the rule clearly violates the Sherman Act - is the hardship that falls on the recruit: the player's freedom to contract is curtailed based upon the coach's choice. Player A cannot attend School B because of a contract entered into by Coach C.  That effect of the rule is detrimental to the player, and that detriment is not mitigated by the fact that he can attend School D or E in City F or G - because the issue is not whether he's being "deprived of an education," that's a strawman: the issue is whether he's being deprived of the education of his choosing. And he is: the player's choices are limited based merely upon the choices of his former coach. 

It's a frivolous analogy, but: say I were to enter into a contract with Dave that said that I would post on this website, but only under the condition that you no longer post on this website. That is fine as far as it goes - for Dave and I. We have freely negotiated an agreement to our seeming mutual benefit. But in the meanwhile, your freedoms - the freedoms of one not party to the contract - are curtailed. Does the fact that you can move your tack to the highly trafficked and intellectually stimulating BEB obviate the fact that by our actions Dave and I have limited yours? What if you like posting here? Doesn't matter. What if you don't like posting on BEB? Doesn't matter. You have to make do, because I have decided thus.

(Yes, all contracts to one extent or another limit the freedom of third parties: if I buy House 1 you cannot. But you at least had the opportunity to buy it, and if not house 1 then house 2 next door or down the street. This is not that. There are 300 or so D1 schools and mostly they are unique: Drexel is not Saint John's is not Uconn and Philly is not New York is not Storrs. And its pretty cavalier to say that they are and if they aren't it's probably no big deal - to the guy who had to spend 4 years there.)

The NCAA's mission statement says that it is intended to make "the educational experience of the student-athlete ... paramount." Does this rule accomplish that? What I see is the student athlete getting screwed at the expense of his former coach, based upon the effect of an arbitrary and arguably illegal rule - the Sherman Act makes illegal "every contract ... in restraint of trade." The fact is that the NCAA enact these nonsensical and panceatic rules and investigates SW Missouri State for recruiting violations to erect a facade of maintaining "the highest levels of integrity and sportsmanship" while countenancing the antics of scoundrels like John Calipari, because its to their economic benefit to do so.

Foad

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Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2010, 08:27:30 AM »
if this wasn't a rule in place calipari would be hiring recruits parents as secretaries or whatever other positions he could offer them. it would be a revolving door.

Yeah, thank god for this rule or things might be dirty in the UK secretarial pool.

In fact, this rule has nothing to do with Johnny Clamchowder. He doesn't hire kids' parents. Small timers like Mike Screwshrenski do that. An arch criminal like Calimari has his accomplice World Wide Wes form a non profit corporation that he uses to funnel giant piles of sneaker money to the recruit's auntie. All its all nice and legal too. Or so it would seem.

Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2010, 12:02:48 PM »
what would be the ruling if saunders committed before hicks was hired, would the offer become null and void? or would it be allowed because he committed prior?

i believe hicks would have not been allowed to sign on the staff for two years, the rule works both ways..unless of course it was for an assistant job
*wipes ketchup from his eyes* - I guess Heinz sight isn’t 20/20.

Re: New rule could hurt coaches, recruits
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2010, 01:24:27 PM »
NCAA is a joke...I have said it a million times!!! I-zay-ha Thomas can be allowed to coach an NCAA basketball team and have a consultant position with the NY Knicks. The NCAA said that this was ok!!!!!! The NBA stepped in and stopped it! I do like the rule that is preventing Sanders from coming to STJ. This has been abused 2 many times.

The rule in its current form is simply.  What would you say to a kid whose father was dying and incapable of traveling more than an hour or so and there is only one major school in the area? 

There is one local major school in NYC.  It's just not fair that Sanders can't even consider St. John's. 

Well then the NCAA should have something in place where situations can be judge based on circumstance but they are such f cking idoits that they would even screw that up!! Again the NCAA is a joke. They are about making money and screwing students period end of story!