Luther Muhammed-6-4 PG Hudson Catholic, NJ - OHIO ST.

It was pretty evident this was going to happen for a while now. Their recruiting strategy is beyond weird. Like I've been saying since last season, all they can do at this point is win. No 5 stars (and a lot of 4 stars) are coming here until the program starts showing results on the court.

It was pretty evident this was going to happen for a while now. Their recruiting strategy is beyond weird. Like I've been saying since last season, all they can do at this point is win. No 5 stars (and a lot of 4 stars) are coming here until the program starts showing results on the court.

I'm sick of this "no 5 or 4 star players will come here until we start to win" narrative. Yes, winning will help but programs do get these types of players before they start to win. Washington has been getting great recruiting classes despite continuing to not win with them. Ben Simmons went to LSU.

Let's look at the '17 class alone:

Michael Porter - Missouri (yes, extenuating circumstances here)
Collin Sexton - Alabama
Mitchell Robinson was committed to Western KY before he bounced on them twice
Brandon McCoy - UNLV
Nick Weatherspoon - Miss State
John Petty - Alabama
Ethan Thompson - Oregon State
Tremont Waters - LSU
Chuma Okeke - Auburn
Rayshaun Hammonds - Georgia
Jordan Goodwin - St Louis
Kimani Lawrence - Arizona State
Davion Mitchell - Auburn
Josh Anderson - Western Kentucky
Jaylen Nowell - Washington

Those are just players in the top 75 of the class. You don't necessarily have to be a winner to convince talent to play for you. Should be somewhat easier for us than other losing programs to get some talent here considering we have two hall of famers and a ton of NBA front office experience on the staff

Quote from: Johnny23 on September 20, 2017, 04:35:54 PM

It was pretty evident this was going to happen for a while now. Their recruiting strategy is beyond weird. Like I've been saying since last season, all they can do at this point is win. No 5 stars (and a lot of 4 stars) are coming here until the program starts showing results on the court.

I'm sick of this "no 5 or 4 star players will come here until we start to win" narrative. Yes, winning will help but programs do get these types of players before they start to win. Washington has been getting great recruiting classes despite continuing to not win with them. Ben Simmons went to LSU.

Let's look at the '17 class alone:

Michael Porter - Missouri (yes, extenuating circumstances here)
Collin Sexton - Alabama
Mitchell Robinson was committed to Western KY before he bounced on them twice
Brandon McCoy - UNLV
Nick Weatherspoon - Miss State
John Petty - Alabama
Ethan Thompson - Oregon State
Tremont Waters - LSU
Chuma Okeke - Auburn
Rayshaun Hammonds - Georgia
Jordan Goodwin - St Louis
Kimani Lawrence - Arizona State
Davion Mitchell - Auburn
Josh Anderson - Western Kentucky
Jaylen Nowell - Washington

Those are just players in the top 75 of the class. You don't necessarily have to be a winner to convince talent to play for you. Should be somewhat easier for us than other losing programs to get some talent here considering we have two hall of famers and a ton of NBA front office experience on the staff

I believe Ben Simmons' dad best friend was on LSU's staff and Mitchell Robinson's Godfather (Shammond Williams) was on Western Kentucky's staff.

For the most part, I agree with you, in reference to the "no 5 or 4 star players" won't come here 'til we win.  In some cases, that may hold true, but a few, too many are playing that card a bit too often. 

Actually, we've always been able to nab top 75 players.  We only had a difficult time landing those types of kids when Norm Roberts was here, but otherwise, that particular crop of talent has never been too tough for us to land.

Quote from: Johnny23 on September 20, 2017, 04:35:54 PM

It was pretty evident this was going to happen for a while now. Their recruiting strategy is beyond weird. Like I've been saying since last season, all they can do at this point is win. No 5 stars (and a lot of 4 stars) are coming here until the program starts showing results on the court.

I'm sick of this "no 5 or 4 star players will come here until we start to win" narrative. Yes, winning will help but programs do get these types of players before they start to win. Washington has been getting great recruiting classes despite continuing to not win with them. Ben Simmons went to LSU.

Let's look at the '17 class alone:

Michael Porter - Missouri (yes, extenuating circumstances here)
Collin Sexton - Alabama
Mitchell Robinson was committed to Western KY before he bounced on them twice
Brandon McCoy - UNLV
Nick Weatherspoon - Miss State
John Petty - Alabama
Ethan Thompson - Oregon State
Tremont Waters - LSU
Chuma Okeke - Auburn
Rayshaun Hammonds - Georgia
Jordan Goodwin - St Louis
Kimani Lawrence - Arizona State
Davion Mitchell - Auburn
Josh Anderson - Western Kentucky
Jaylen Nowell - Washington

Those are just players in the top 75 of the class. You don't necessarily have to be a winner to convince talent to play for you. Should be somewhat easier for us than other losing programs to get some talent here considering we have two hall of famers and a ton of NBA front office experience on the staff

You can be sick and tired of it all you want. It's the truth. If it wasn't, then where are all of the 5 stars signing with us? Do you think if SJU does not win and does not make the NCAA that they will have any real chance with 5 stars? No way. They should be focusing much of their resources on attainable prospects (as well as the occasional 4/5 star) and under the radar guys until they start winning more. This last part is where good scouting comes into play.

Not to mention Washington had already won under Romar and been to the NCAA tourney in 3 consecutive seasons from '09-'11. That is a track record regardless if 4 out of his last 5 years he was barely above .500. Mullin has no track record of winning or making the NCAA's yet.

Quote from: goredmen on September 20, 2017, 04:56:37 PM

Quote from: Johnny23 on September 20, 2017, 04:35:54 PM

It was pretty evident this was going to happen for a while now. Their recruiting strategy is beyond weird. Like I've been saying since last season, all they can do at this point is win. No 5 stars (and a lot of 4 stars) are coming here until the program starts showing results on the court.

I'm sick of this "no 5 or 4 star players will come here until we start to win" narrative. Yes, winning will help but programs do get these types of players before they start to win. Washington has been getting great recruiting classes despite continuing to not win with them. Ben Simmons went to LSU.

Let's look at the '17 class alone:

Michael Porter - Missouri (yes, extenuating circumstances here)
Collin Sexton - Alabama
Mitchell Robinson was committed to Western KY before he bounced on them twice
Brandon McCoy - UNLV
Nick Weatherspoon - Miss State
John Petty - Alabama
Ethan Thompson - Oregon State
Tremont Waters - LSU
Chuma Okeke - Auburn
Rayshaun Hammonds - Georgia
Jordan Goodwin - St Louis
Kimani Lawrence - Arizona State
Davion Mitchell - Auburn
Josh Anderson - Western Kentucky
Jaylen Nowell - Washington

Those are just players in the top 75 of the class. You don't necessarily have to be a winner to convince talent to play for you. Should be somewhat easier for us than other losing programs to get some talent here considering we have two hall of famers and a ton of NBA front office experience on the staff

You can be sick and tired of it all you want. It's the truth. If it wasn't, then where are all of the 5 stars signing with us? Do you think if SJU does not win and does not make the NCAA that they will have any real chance with 5 stars? No way. They should be focusing much of their resources on attainable prospects (as well as the occasional 4/5 star) and under the radar guys until they start winning more. This last part is where good scouting comes into play.

Not to mention Washington had already won under Romar and been to the NCAA tourney in 3 consecutive seasons from '09-'11. That is a track record regardless if 4 out of his last 5 years he was barely above .500. Mullin has no track record of winning or making the NCAA's yet.

What track record of winning at the college level does Avery Johnson have to land a top 5 player and a top 30 player?

I thinking the lack of success so far is definitely hurting recruiting. I would be hard pressed to see how you anyone could think otherwise.

Call me hard pressed. How many more wins were you expecting considering the roster that they started with. Me, they won more games than I figured they would.

this staff has gotta go.

Mike Rice is available, he'd be my choice. #thetruth

Quote from: Johnny23 on September 20, 2017, 05:24:02 PM

Quote from: goredmen on September 20, 2017, 04:56:37 PM

Quote from: Johnny23 on September 20, 2017, 04:35:54 PM

It was pretty evident this was going to happen for a while now. Their recruiting strategy is beyond weird. Like I've been saying since last season, all they can do at this point is win. No 5 stars (and a lot of 4 stars) are coming here until the program starts showing results on the court.

I'm sick of this "no 5 or 4 star players will come here until we start to win" narrative. Yes, winning will help but programs do get these types of players before they start to win. Washington has been getting great recruiting classes despite continuing to not win with them. Ben Simmons went to LSU.

Let's look at the '17 class alone:

Michael Porter - Missouri (yes, extenuating circumstances here)
Collin Sexton - Alabama
Mitchell Robinson was committed to Western KY before he bounced on them twice
Brandon McCoy - UNLV
Nick Weatherspoon - Miss State
John Petty - Alabama
Ethan Thompson - Oregon State
Tremont Waters - LSU
Chuma Okeke - Auburn
Rayshaun Hammonds - Georgia
Jordan Goodwin - St Louis
Kimani Lawrence - Arizona State
Davion Mitchell - Auburn
Josh Anderson - Western Kentucky
Jaylen Nowell - Washington

Those are just players in the top 75 of the class. You don't necessarily have to be a winner to convince talent to play for you. Should be somewhat easier for us than other losing programs to get some talent here considering we have two hall of famers and a ton of NBA front office experience on the staff

You can be sick and tired of it all you want. It's the truth. If it wasn't, then where are all of the 5 stars signing with us? Do you think if SJU does not win and does not make the NCAA that they will have any real chance with 5 stars? No way. They should be focusing much of their resources on attainable prospects (as well as the occasional 4/5 star) and under the radar guys until they start winning more. This last part is where good scouting comes into play.

Not to mention Washington had already won under Romar and been to the NCAA tourney in 3 consecutive seasons from '09-'11. That is a track record regardless if 4 out of his last 5 years he was barely above .500. Mullin has no track record of winning or making the NCAA's yet.

What track record of winning at the college level does Avery Johnson have to land a top 5 player and a top 30 player?

Although, Johnson has a winning record (37-30), he has the same amount of post season wins as Mullin (Johnson has lost two consecutive years in the first round of the NIT). 

As, you stated, he was able to land a clear 5-star and a borderline 5-star player in one class alone.

Quote from: goredmen on September 20, 2017, 04:56:37 PM

Quote from: Johnny23 on September 20, 2017, 04:35:54 PM

It was pretty evident this was going to happen for a while now. Their recruiting strategy is beyond weird. Like I've been saying since last season, all they can do at this point is win. No 5 stars (and a lot of 4 stars) are coming here until the program starts showing results on the court.

I'm sick of this "no 5 or 4 star players will come here until we start to win" narrative. Yes, winning will help but programs do get these types of players before they start to win. Washington has been getting great recruiting classes despite continuing to not win with them. Ben Simmons went to LSU.

Let's look at the '17 class alone:

Michael Porter - Missouri (yes, extenuating circumstances here)
Collin Sexton - Alabama
Mitchell Robinson was committed to Western KY before he bounced on them twice
Brandon McCoy - UNLV
Nick Weatherspoon - Miss State
John Petty - Alabama
Ethan Thompson - Oregon State
Tremont Waters - LSU
Chuma Okeke - Auburn
Rayshaun Hammonds - Georgia
Jordan Goodwin - St Louis
Kimani Lawrence - Arizona State
Davion Mitchell - Auburn
Josh Anderson - Western Kentucky
Jaylen Nowell - Washington

Those are just players in the top 75 of the class. You don't necessarily have to be a winner to convince talent to play for you. Should be somewhat easier for us than other losing programs to get some talent here considering we have two hall of famers and a ton of NBA front office experience on the staff

You can be sick and tired of it all you want. It's the truth. If it wasn't, then where are all of the 5 stars signing with us? Do you think if SJU does not win and does not make the NCAA that they will have any real chance with 5 stars? No way. They should be focusing much of their resources on attainable prospects (as well as the occasional 4/5 star) and under the radar guys until they start winning more. This last part is where good scouting comes into play.

Not to mention Washington had already won under Romar and been to the NCAA tourney in 3 consecutive seasons from '09-'11. That is a track record regardless if 4 out of his last 5 years he was barely above .500. Mullin has no track record of winning or making the NCAA's yet.

And for the record, I don't think we can realistically hope that we will land top 10 or multiple 5 star guys every year. What happened with Nas Little is just a bad break to me. I don't expect us to compete with and win a battle for a player when the likes of Duke, Kansas, Arizona, Kentucky etc get involved. But in a situation like this where we are considered a strong lean for a kid for a while just to (potentially) lose him to Ohio State is frustrating. Ohio State has had some nice success somewhat recently but they are far from a basketball blue blood. They can also win 10 straight national championships and they'd still be the second game in town on that campus

Quote from: Johnny23 on September 20, 2017, 05:24:02 PM

Quote from: goredmen on September 20, 2017, 04:56:37 PM

Quote from: Johnny23 on September 20, 2017, 04:35:54 PM

It was pretty evident this was going to happen for a while now. Their recruiting strategy is beyond weird. Like I've been saying since last season, all they can do at this point is win. No 5 stars (and a lot of 4 stars) are coming here until the program starts showing results on the court.

I'm sick of this "no 5 or 4 star players will come here until we start to win" narrative. Yes, winning will help but programs do get these types of players before they start to win. Washington has been getting great recruiting classes despite continuing to not win with them. Ben Simmons went to LSU.

Let's look at the '17 class alone:

Michael Porter - Missouri (yes, extenuating circumstances here)
Collin Sexton - Alabama
Mitchell Robinson was committed to Western KY before he bounced on them twice
Brandon McCoy - UNLV
Nick Weatherspoon - Miss State
John Petty - Alabama
Ethan Thompson - Oregon State
Tremont Waters - LSU
Chuma Okeke - Auburn
Rayshaun Hammonds - Georgia
Jordan Goodwin - St Louis
Kimani Lawrence - Arizona State
Davion Mitchell - Auburn
Josh Anderson - Western Kentucky
Jaylen Nowell - Washington

Those are just players in the top 75 of the class. You don't necessarily have to be a winner to convince talent to play for you. Should be somewhat easier for us than other losing programs to get some talent here considering we have two hall of famers and a ton of NBA front office experience on the staff

You can be sick and tired of it all you want. It's the truth. If it wasn't, then where are all of the 5 stars signing with us? Do you think if SJU does not win and does not make the NCAA that they will have any real chance with 5 stars? No way. They should be focusing much of their resources on attainable prospects (as well as the occasional 4/5 star) and under the radar guys until they start winning more. This last part is where good scouting comes into play.

Not to mention Washington had already won under Romar and been to the NCAA tourney in 3 consecutive seasons from '09-'11. That is a track record regardless if 4 out of his last 5 years he was barely above .500. Mullin has no track record of winning or making the NCAA's yet.

And for the record, I don't think we can realistically hope that we will land top 10 or multiple 5 star guys every year. What happened with Nas Little is just a bad break to me. I don't expect us to compete with and win a battle for a player when the likes of Duke, Kansas, Arizona, Kentucky etc get involved. But in a situation like this where we are considered a strong lean for a kid for a while just to (potentially) lose him to Ohio State is frustrating. Ohio State has had some nice success somewhat recently but they are far from a basketball blue blood. They can also win 10 straight national championships and they'd still be the second game in town on that campus

I'm talking more about 5 star blue chips than a guy like Luther (no knock on Luther). Not happening until we win some more games. And I know it's not college, but to answer your question from another post, at least Avery Johnson showed he could coach and win at the highest level in the NBA. It's a different animal than college but he proved he could win as a HC.

Assuming expected playing time, chance of tourney,affinity to Coaching staff, similar/equal etc., then at some point kid will determine if he wants to truly get away or stay somewhat close to home.

I'd imagine if I was 18 and thinking SJU, then go on a multi-state tour and see these large, impressive campuses, facilities, tons of females, etc. and then compare that to our band-aid campus on Utopia Pkwy. and I'd probably question staying too.

It really takes a special kid, a true love of NYC, or other unique situations want to come to Queens.

Again - based on other basketball factors being similar..

Assuming expected playing time, chance of tourney,affinity to Coaching staff, similar/equal etc., then at some point kid will determine if he wants to truly get away or stay somewhat close to home.

I'd imagine if I was 18 and thinking SJU, then go on a multi-state tour and see these large, impressive campuses, facilities, tons of females, etc. and then compare that to our band-aid campus on Utopia Pkwy. and I'd probably question staying too.

It really takes a special kid, a true love of NYC, or other unique situations want to come to Queens.

Again - based on other basketball factors being similar..

Unique situations?

Unique meaning wanting/needing to be close to family, close relationships w/ other players on team, maybe good diversity for an international type player etc. 

What track record of winning at the college level does Avery Johnson have to land a top 5 player and a top 30 player?

What's the recruiting budget at Alabama? That's in the $EC, right?

Quote from: goredmen on September 20, 2017, 05:27:18 PM

What track record of winning at the college level does Avery Johnson have to land a top 5 player and a top 30 player?

What's the recruiting budget at Alabama? That's in the $EC, right?

I'm almost positive nobody in the Alabama athletic department even knows what a basketball looks like

Kid wanted to go to ND. They filled up.  We were always plan b 
Some here didn't want to believe that. 
No one picks plan b .  U survey the field.

Quote from: Foad on September 20, 2017, 07:38:46 PM

Quote from: goredmen on September 20, 2017, 05:27:18 PM

What track record of winning at the college level does Avery Johnson have to land a top 5 player and a top 30 player?

What's the recruiting budget at Alabama? That's in the $EC, right?

I'm almost positive nobody in the Alabama athletic department even knows what a basketball looks like

It looks like a deformed football. Also, Leon Douglas was a hell of a ball player.

Quote from: Foad on September 20, 2017, 07:38:46 PM

Quote from: goredmen on September 20, 2017, 05:27:18 PM

What track record of winning at the college level does Avery Johnson have to land a top 5 player and a top 30 player?

What's the recruiting budget at Alabama? That's in the $EC, right?

I'm almost positive nobody in the Alabama athletic department even knows what a basketball looks like

Actually Bama is second or third in winning to Kentucky and maybe Tennessee in SEC basketball history.

Quote from: goredmen on September 20, 2017, 07:47:59 PM

Quote from: Foad on September 20, 2017, 07:38:46 PM

Quote from: goredmen on September 20, 2017, 05:27:18 PM

What track record of winning at the college level does Avery Johnson have to land a top 5 player and a top 30 player?

What's the recruiting budget at Alabama? That's in the $EC, right?

I'm almost positive nobody in the Alabama athletic department even knows what a basketball looks like

Actually Bama is second or third in winning to Kentucky and maybe Tennessee in SEC basketball history.

If Alabama basketball won the national championship the lead story in the University newspaper the next day would be what Nick Saban had for dinner

Recruiting ain't easy. The longer the fish is in the sea the more sharks it will attract.