Talent

Assuming we land Simon and Livingston, I believe this roster, on paper, is the most impressive top to bottom I've witnessed at SJU. Particularly, the talent at the bottom of the roster is what is so surprising. There is no wasted ship. No project.

I always assumed you needed solid reserves like Alibegovic  to round out any good roster, but the 5th-year transfer rule combined with traditional transfers really changes that.  We've got two top talents in Simon and Clark that should help immensely in practice that won't be getting minutes this year. They will step in the year after as veterans to provide continuity. If we land Livingston, he'll only be around for a season and likely will not cause one of the younger bigs to become discouraged with p/t and possibly seek a transfer.

That leaves the staff with a very manageable rotation of ten men, and any coach should be able to ensure he gets his top 8 -9 guys enough minutes to keep them happy and from seeking greener pastures. If you lose that 10th guy, it shouldn't matter that much with two vets waiting in the wings and the possibility of adding another grad transfer or highly ranked high school kid/JUCO.

Year 4 Lavin is the most talented, IMO.  Sampson (NBA), Pointer (drafted), D-Lo (top 3 scorer), Sanchez (D-League), Jordan (more talented than all of them), Obekpa (best shot blocker I've seen at SJU), plus Branch (top 35 recruit), PGIV, etc.

But I can see why you think this team is very talented.  I agree.  A bunch of guys who are/were or would be considered top 50 in this class, plus Yawke, Sima, a former 5-star PG, top rated JUCO in his class and the Mich St. kid, etc.

Had Lavin's first class all made it to campus that would have been the most talent we assembled in one year since Jarvis tenure.

Agreed.  And now the next 2 years are all on the coaches to develop this talent.  Georgetown has had no "no wasted ships", for the most part, for the past 3 seasons.  But they have disappointed.  Let's see.

Also I was only really comparing Lavin and Mullin.  Some of the Jarvis teams, obviously many of the Lou teams, and even some of the Mahoney/Fran teams were really talented.

Year 4 Lavin is the most talented, IMO.  Sampson (NBA), Pointer (drafted), D-Lo (top 3 scorer), Sanchez (D-League), Jordan (more talented than all of them), Obekpa (best shot blocker I've seen at SJU), plus Branch (top 35 recruit), PGIV, etc.

But I can see why you think this team is very talented.  I agree.  A bunch of guys who are/were or would be considered top 50 in this class, plus Yawke, Sima, a former 5-star PG, top rated JUCO in his class and the Mich St. kid, etc.

Had Lavin's first class all made it to campus that would have been the most talent we assembled in one year since Jarvis tenure.

Very talented, perhaps more top talent, but the end of that roster was a disaster and there were some gaping holes. They were possibly a Livingston away from Sweet 16.

Even the nasty 98-00 teams fell off a cliff talent-wise after the first 7 guys. There was no big besides Grant and when he got injured, nobody could step up and they had to play small.

There are certainly other huge factors at play like experience, chemistry, coachability, development, etc., so I'm not talking about how it will translate to wins and losses.

They were a guy who could coach away from the Sweet 16.

The great thing is you know 2-3 years down the road the roster will still be loaded with talent and depth which has essentially been a foreign concept to this program in my lifetime at least. Even if an Ellison or Mussini decide to transfer after this upcoming season we will still have plenty of depth to absorb those losses. Worst case scenario and we still have a backcourt of Lovett, Ponds, Simon and Ahmed and a frontcourt of Sima, Yakwe, Owens, Freudenberg and Clark entering the 17-18 season. That doesn't even include other potential recruits/transfers

Too early to know what we've got.  Hard to say Ponds or anybody matches Harrison, and as promising as Yakwe is he's not Sampson yet.  Same can be said for Ahmed and Pointer.

The fact that we have some real talent coming doesn't mean we need to rewrite history.  Some of Lavins teams had a lot of talent.

The advantage (if it happens) will be pg and big man play.  Lovett and Simon could be much better than any combination of Branch Jordan and pgiv. 

And Sima could be much better than Obekpa all around.

But that's potential.  Hasn't been realized yet. 

^ Talk about setting the bar low. If next year's class doesn't end up better than the Harrison and Sampson teams then this program is going nowhere in a hurry.

Ponds looks like Carl Lewis compared to the slow footed Harrison. Yakwe looks like Mutoumbo compared to Sampson on defense. I sure as hell hope this group accomplishes more than that underachieving group.

Too early to know what we've got.  Hard to say Ponds or anybody matches Harrison, and as promising as Yakwe is he's not Sampson yet.  Same can be said for Ahmed and Pointer.

The fact that we have some real talent coming doesn't mean we need to rewrite history.  Some of Lavins teams had a lot of talent.

The advantage (if it happens) will be pg and big man play.  Lovett and Simon could be much better than any combination of Branch Jordan and pgiv. 

And Sima could be much better than Obekpa all around.

But that's potential.  Hasn't been realized yet. 

Tough to tell, I think having a true point guard, who has his head on half way straight will make
A major difference. It seems like forever since we have had an effective point.

Assuming we land Simon and Livingston, I believe this roster, on paper, is the most impressive top to bottom I've witnessed at SJU. Particularly, the talent at the bottom of the roster is what is so surprising. There is no wasted ship. No project.

I always assumed you needed solid reserves like Alibegovic  to round out any good roster, but the 5th-year transfer rule combined with traditional transfers really changes that.  We've got two top talents in Simon and Clark that should help immensely in practice that won't be getting minutes this year. They will step in the year after as veterans to provide continuity. If we land Livingston, he'll only be around for a season and likely will not cause one of the younger bigs to become discouraged with p/t and possibly seek a transfer.

That leaves the staff with a very manageable rotation of ten men, and any coach should be able to ensure he gets his top 8 -9 guys enough minutes to keep them happy and from seeking greener pastures. If you lose that 10th guy, it shouldn't matter that much with two vets waiting in the wings and the possibility of adding another grad transfer or highly ranked high school kid/JUCO.

To understand your comment. when did you start watching?

Quote from: prjohnnies on April 20, 2016, 07:20:46 PM

Year 4 Lavin is the most talented, IMO.  Sampson (NBA), Pointer (drafted), D-Lo (top 3 scorer), Sanchez (D-League), Jordan (more talented than all of them), Obekpa (best shot blocker I've seen at SJU), plus Branch (top 35 recruit), PGIV, etc.

But I can see why you think this team is very talented.  I agree.  A bunch of guys who are/were or would be considered top 50 in this class, plus Yawke, Sima, a former 5-star PG, top rated JUCO in his class and the Mich St. kid, etc.

Had Lavin's first class all made it to campus that would have been the most talent we assembled in one year since Jarvis tenure.

Very talented, perhaps more top talent, but the end of that roster was a disaster and there were some gaping holes. They were possibly a Livingston away from Sweet 16.

Even the nasty 98-00 teams fell off a cliff talent-wise after the first 7 guys. There was no big besides Grant and when he got injured, nobody could step up and they had to play small.

There are certainly other huge factors at play like experience, chemistry, coachability, development, etc., so I'm not talking about how it will translate to wins and losses.

I remember Arrest guarding Elton Brand.

The great thing is you know 2-3 years down the road the roster will still be loaded with talent and depth which has essentially been a foreign concept to this program in my lifetime at least. Even if an Ellison or Mussini decide to transfer after this upcoming season we will still have plenty of depth to absorb those losses. Worst case scenario and we still have a backcourt of Lovett, Ponds, Simon and Ahmed and a frontcourt of Sima, Yakwe, Owens, Freudenberg and Clark entering the 17-18 season. That doesn't even include other potential recruits/transfers

The way college bball is now you can never have enough depth. Every year you will basically lose 1-2 kids to transfers and possibly another kid who leaves early so having good depth is key to absorb this loses. This team with Simon and Clark added will be talented young and deep, good things on the horizon.

I'm not talking about the results Johnny23.  My view, shared by others, was that many other coaches could have gotten more out of Lavin's recruits, particularly the initial class.  Lavs was a great recruiter early on (when he tried), but after several years it became apparent that his coaching left much to be desired.  Couple that with a fall off in recruiting, and the gamble on Sheed/Obekpa which didn't turn out as he thought it would, and we saw what happened.

I fully expect the results to be better than the last coach.

^ Talk about setting the bar low. If next year's class doesn't end up better than the Harrison and Sampson teams then this program is going nowhere in a hurry.

Ponds looks like Carl Lewis compared to the slow footed Harrison. Yakwe looks like Mutoumbo compared to Sampson on defense. I sure as hell hope this group accomplishes more than that underachieving group.

Too early to know what we've got.  Hard to say Ponds or anybody matches Harrison, and as promising as Yakwe is he's not Sampson yet.  Same can be said for Ahmed and Pointer.

The fact that we have some real talent coming doesn't mean we need to rewrite history.  Some of Lavins teams had a lot of talent.

The advantage (if it happens) will be pg and big man play.  Lovett and Simon could be much better than any combination of Branch Jordan and pgiv. 

And Sima could be much better than Obekpa all around.

But that's potential.  Hasn't been realized yet. 

I don't disagree with you, but I am just talking strictly talent. That 2011 class broke my heart. I really thought we'd get three trips to the dance and an Elite Eight or better from them, but Moe took off early and Lavin just couldn't build a complete roster to finish it off. And smack in the middle of the grad transfer generation...just crazy to neglect the transfer game like that. No PG, lack of skill, and no depth.  Rebounding PFs and pg's grow on trees in the grad transfer game and come with little to no academic risk.

For comparison:

SO Jordan #26 RSCI.
SR Pointer #35 RSCI
SR Harrison #47 RSCI
SR Branch #52 RSCI
JR Obekpa #69 RSCI
SR Greene #179 RSCI

R-SO Simon #30 RSCI
SO Ponds #38 RSCI (estimated final spot)
R-SO Lovett #76 RSCI
JR  Yakwe   #69 RSCI - No final RSCI because of class change but equivalent to CO before change
JR Mussini #132 RSCI
JR Malik Ellison #137 RSCI
JR Sima  #152 RSCI
R-JR Owens #181 RSCI

*RF will be in the final 100 and really is closer to a top 50 RSCI recruit IMO.

The top end talent is comparable, but the depth with guys like Clark Jr., RF, Mussini, Owens, and Ahmed just kills Amar, Chrsitian, Felix, and walkon nation.

I'm not talking about the results Johnny23.  My view, shared by others, was that many other coaches could have gotten more out of Lavin's recruits, particularly the initial class.  Lavs was a great recruiter early on (when he tried), but after several years it became apparent that his coaching left much to be desired.  Couple that with a fall off in recruiting, and the gamble on Sheed/Obekpa which didn't turn out as he thought it would, and we saw what happened.

I fully expect the results to be better than the last coach.

Quote from: Johnny23 on April 20, 2016, 09:14:34 PM

^ Talk about setting the bar low. If next year's class doesn't end up better than the Harrison and Sampson teams then this program is going nowhere in a hurry.

Ponds looks like Carl Lewis compared to the slow footed Harrison. Yakwe looks like Mutoumbo compared to Sampson on defense. I sure as hell hope this group accomplishes more than that underachieving group.

I completely agree, PR. I was responding to desco's post, not yours.

Quote from: Marillac on April 20, 2016, 07:13:36 PM

Assuming we land Simon and Livingston, I believe this roster, on paper, is the most impressive top to bottom I've witnessed at SJU. Particularly, the talent at the bottom of the roster is what is so surprising. There is no wasted ship. No project.

I always assumed you needed solid reserves like Alibegovic  to round out any good roster, but the 5th-year transfer rule combined with traditional transfers really changes that.  We've got two top talents in Simon and Clark that should help immensely in practice that won't be getting minutes this year. They will step in the year after as veterans to provide continuity. If we land Livingston, he'll only be around for a season and likely will not cause one of the younger bigs to become discouraged with p/t and possibly seek a transfer.

That leaves the staff with a very manageable rotation of ten men, and any coach should be able to ensure he gets his top 8 -9 guys enough minutes to keep them happy and from seeking greener pastures. If you lose that 10th guy, it shouldn't matter that much with two vets waiting in the wings and the possibility of adding another grad transfer or highly ranked high school kid/JUCO.

To understand your comment. when did you start watching?

The Felipe years is as far back as I can remember.  I remember Fred Lyson and Shawnelle Scott.  My favorite player around that time was actually Terry Dehere of Seton Hall.

It seemed to me that even those good teams had poor depth.

Quote from: redslope on April 20, 2016, 10:23:40 PM

Quote from: Marillac on April 20, 2016, 07:13:36 PM

Assuming we land Simon and Livingston, I believe this roster, on paper, is the most impressive top to bottom I've witnessed at SJU. Particularly, the talent at the bottom of the roster is what is so surprising. There is no wasted ship. No project.

I always assumed you needed solid reserves like Alibegovic  to round out any good roster, but the 5th-year transfer rule combined with traditional transfers really changes that.  We've got two top talents in Simon and Clark that should help immensely in practice that won't be getting minutes this year. They will step in the year after as veterans to provide continuity. If we land Livingston, he'll only be around for a season and likely will not cause one of the younger bigs to become discouraged with p/t and possibly seek a transfer.

That leaves the staff with a very manageable rotation of ten men, and any coach should be able to ensure he gets his top 8 -9 guys enough minutes to keep them happy and from seeking greener pastures. If you lose that 10th guy, it shouldn't matter that much with two vets waiting in the wings and the possibility of adding another grad transfer or highly ranked high school kid/JUCO.

To understand your comment. when did you start watching?

The Felipe years is as far back as I can remember.  I remember Fred Lyson and Shawnelle Scott.  My favorite player around that time was actually Terry Dehere of Seton Hall.

It seemed to me that even those good teams had poor depth.

OK--explains the evaluation and I would agree that it has the potential to be the best in the last 25 years--I go back further and would have differed if you had gone back further.

Seems like we've had some good recruiters over the years, poor player development or in game coaching.

Fran was a great recruiter, not so much in game coaching. Jarvis was a good in game coach and, well, we all know about his "recruiting". Norm could recruit, just didn't know how to coach. Lavin was a good recruiter, again, didn't coach well during games.

Even Louie was a good recruiter but not much of a player development, in game coach. Hopefully Chris improves on his player development, game coaching. With the increase in talent come the pressure to produce.