Zach B SJU Recruiting Critique

Quote from: Poison on April 25, 2016, 07:09:47 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on April 25, 2016, 06:24:59 PM

Prez was the best on that team even though he didn't score the most points, and wasn't my fav, due to his unique versatility.  He scored, he rebounded, he passed, he defended, he had a handle.  He was "Costco" before Costco.

I don't object to comparing freshmen stats of players and writing of potential.  But DJ was a darn good if not great player for us and to date MalikIV's done nothing.  Comparing them seems silly at this juncture.

What had DJ Kennedy done for St.John's in his first season there outside of taking a serious beating every single night? That team was marginally better than this one.

I don't recall.  My issue is with comparing favorably freshman who have done nothing with players like Prez who gave us so much.  Seems disrespectful to our heroes of yore.

I saw DJ get eaten alive as a freshman. Absense makes the heart grow fonder.

People are remembering DJs Sr. Yr and comparing it to Ellisons fr. Year. Only the most astute fan can remember the specifics of DJs fr. Year.

People are remembering DJs Sr. Yr and comparing it to Ellisons fr. Year. Only the most astute fan can remember the specifics of DJs fr. Year.

I think a lot of fans remember that recruiting class. It was enormous.

People are remembering DJs Sr. Yr and comparing it to Ellisons fr. Year. Only the most astute fan can remember the specifics of DJs fr. Year.

I remember in the first game of his career, standing maybe a little over 6'5, DJ played much of the second half at center and had 14 rebounds. I think he even got his own personal thread dedicated to him by the one and only Choz, that note right there is reason enough to end the debate.

Quote from: WillieG on April 24, 2016, 06:15:26 PM

Quote from: Foad on April 24, 2016, 06:03:29 PM

Quote from: WillieG on April 24, 2016, 05:47:03 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on April 24, 2016, 07:56:46 AM

Ellison is a good athlete. He will get bigger and stronger. On a Norm team, where he would get plenty of minutes he would improve. He would have a decent junior year and a good senior season . I hope he gets buried on the bench next year. I don't think he is ready to contribute much to a winning team.

He's got good pedigree and he's missed a lot of time early on.  Lets not be to harsh with this kid for now. Give him two years to develop.  If he's not much better by next February, then it will be time to transfer.  He'll then get a year to work out and develop his game at a lower level. Two years from now we will have Clarke and Simon active, so if he hasn't improved by then, he should definitely transfer.

I think it's fair to say that the 2016 Red Storm were the best 1 and 17 ever and that everyone should transfer or red shirt because we are loaded.

I said he should transfer, if he doesn't improve, after next year.  Not this year.  What are you talking about?

Basketball. Pay attention, you might learn something.

I'm sorry Foad, but your post seems to be intentionally nonsensical, and has nothing to do with basketball.

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on April 25, 2016, 08:56:46 PM

Quote from: Poison on April 25, 2016, 07:09:47 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on April 25, 2016, 06:24:59 PM

Prez was the best on that team even though he didn't score the most points, and wasn't my fav, due to his unique versatility.  He scored, he rebounded, he passed, he defended, he had a handle.  He was "Costco" before Costco.

I don't object to comparing freshmen stats of players and writing of potential.  But DJ was a darn good if not great player for us and to date MalikIV's done nothing.  Comparing them seems silly at this juncture.

What had DJ Kennedy done for St.John's in his first season there outside of taking a serious beating every single night? That team was marginally better than this one.

I don't recall.  My issue is with comparing favorably freshman who have done nothing with players like Prez who gave us so much.  Seems disrespectful to our heroes of yore.

I saw DJ get eaten alive as a freshman. Absense makes the heart grow fonder.

If Ellison becomes half the player Kennedy was I'll be pleasantly surprised.

I'm sorry Foad, but your post seems to be intentionally nonsensical, and has nothing to do with basketball.

I'm never write nonsense, although sometimes I'm prone to flights of poesy. And roster continuity has everything to do with basketball. It is in fact the sign of a healthy basketball program. Upperclassmen win basketball games. You know what's nonsensical? Hoping they transfer.

Quote from: WillieG on April 24, 2016, 05:47:03 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on April 24, 2016, 07:56:46 AM

Ellison is a good athlete. He will get bigger and stronger. On a Norm team, where he would get plenty of minutes he would improve. He would have a decent junior year and a good senior season . I hope he gets buried on the bench next year. I don't think he is ready to contribute much to a winning team.

He's got good pedigree and he's missed a lot of time early on.  Lets not be to harsh with this kid for now. Give him two years to develop.  If he's not much better by next February, then it will be time to transfer.  He'll then get a year to work out and develop his game at a lower level. Two years from now we will have Clarke and Simon active, so if he hasn't improved by then, he should definitely transfer.

I think it's fair to say that the 2016 Red Storm were the best 1 and 17 ever and that everyone should transfer or red shirt because we are loaded.

One man's poesy is another man's nonsense.

Quote from: WillieG on April 25, 2016, 10:59:32 PM

I'm sorry Foad, but your post seems to be intentionally nonsensical, and has nothing to do with basketball.

I'm never write nonsense, although sometimes I'm prone to flights of poesy. And roster continuity has everything to do with basketball. It is in fact the sign of a healthy basketball program. Upperclassmen win basketball games. You know what's nonsensical? Hoping they transfer.

Where did you read I was hoping Ellison would transfer?  I merely said if he has not shown improvement at the end of next year, he should develop at a lower level.  I'm certainly not hoping he transfers.  I hope he develops and stays.  Sometimes though, if a player is in over his head, it behooves him to transfer.  I think Malik Stithe was national player of the year at a lower level. (not equating them because Ellison is much more talented, but the point is the same.)  If Ellison is in over his head here, maybe he would be better off in the A10 or CAA.  But as I said, I hope he stays.  I didn't say I hope he transfers.  I'll post what I said below.

Quote from: TONYD3 on April 24, 2016, 07:56:46 AM

Ellison is a good athlete. He will get bigger and stronger. On a Norm team, where he would get plenty of minutes he would improve. He would have a decent junior year and a good senior season . I hope he gets buried on the bench next year. I don't think he is ready to contribute much to a winning team.

He's got good pedigree and he's missed a lot of time early on.  Lets not be to harsh with this kid for now. Give him two years to develop.  If he's not much better by next February, then it will be time to transfer.  He'll then get a year to work out and develop his game at a lower level. Two years from now we will have Clarke and Simon active, so if he hasn't improved by then, he should definitely transfer.

If he's still playing like this two years from now, it would be better for him to transfer.  I'm actually one who thinks he will develop, so I'm hoping he stays.

Look, all I said on page one and two is that he shouldn't be given up on, since he has missed a lot of time, and he has good pedigree.  At first it seemed like Poison did not like Ellison, and now it seems like he is building my case for me with the DJ comparisons. (DJ turned out to be a very good player for us.  If Ellison is close to him he will be very valuable to us.) Poison said his pedigree does not translate to anything we can see right now, so why doesn't he get in the gym and lift and develop his game, right now.  Agreed.  How do you know he won't.  Like I said, lets not give up on him yet.

Why would one say I'm hoping he transfers?

r

Quote from: WillieG on April 25, 2016, 07:42:21 PM

Look, all I said on page one and two is that he shouldn't be given up on, since he has missed a lot of time, and he has good pedigree.  At first it seemed like Poison did not like Ellison, and now it seems like he is building my case for me with the DJ comparisons. (DJ turned out to be a very good player for us.  If Ellison is close to him he will be very valuable to us.) Poison said his pedigree does not translate to anything we can see right now, so why doesn't he get in the gym and lift and develop his game, right now.  Agreed.  How do you know he won't.  Like I said, lets not give up on him yet.

Why would one say I'm hoping he transfers?

In 10 years of posting I've never hit a nerve so deeply that it generated four different responses. Congratulations.

Anyway, what you said despite all the bleating to the contrary was: "If he's not much better by next February, then it will be time to transfer." February would be 3 months into his sophomore year. By that criteria Dom Pointer and Phil Greene should have transferred, because they stunk as sophomores. As do many players. The idea that this program is in a position to start throwing players over the transom because they do not perform after a year and a half is laughable.

Except in rare cases a transfer is a failure. It means the staff has chosen the wrong player or the staff has failed to develop the right player or the right player has chosen the wrong school or or the wrong player has failed to take advantage of the right opportunity. You might be looking forward to more failure come next February, but I'm not. I'm sick of failure.

r

Quote from: WillieG on April 27, 2016, 12:17:17 AM

Quote from: WillieG on April 25, 2016, 07:42:21 PM

Look, all I said on page one and two is that he shouldn't be given up on, since he has missed a lot of time, and he has good pedigree.  At first it seemed like Poison did not like Ellison, and now it seems like he is building my case for me with the DJ comparisons. (DJ turned out to be a very good player for us.  If Ellison is close to him he will be very valuable to us.) Poison said his pedigree does not translate to anything we can see right now, so why doesn't he get in the gym and lift and develop his game, right now.  Agreed.  How do you know he won't.  Like I said, lets not give up on him yet.

Why would one say I'm hoping he transfers?

In 10 years of posting I've never hit a nerve so deeply that it generated four different responses. Congratulations.

Anyway, what you said despite all the bleating to the contrary was: "If he's not much better by next February, then it will be time to transfer." February would be 3 months into his sophomore year. By that criteria Dom Pointer and Phil Greene should have transferred, because they stunk as sophomores. As do many players. The idea that this program is in a position to start throwing players over the transom because they do not perform after a year and a half is laughable.

Except in rare cases a transfer is a failure. It means the staff has chosen the wrong player or the staff has failed to develop the right player or the right player has chosen the wrong school or or the wrong player has failed to take advantage of the right opportunity. You might be looking forward to more failure come next February, but I'm not. I'm sick of failure.

Or the right staff has recruited over what was the right player although the formerly right player may not have had enough time to take advantage of what was the right opportunity and therefore is now the wrong player...

IMO, Ellison could develop. Let's give it time.

r

Quote from: WillieG on April 27, 2016, 12:17:17 AM

Quote from: WillieG on April 25, 2016, 07:42:21 PM

Look, all I said on page one and two is that he shouldn't be given up on, since he has missed a lot of time, and he has good pedigree.  At first it seemed like Poison did not like Ellison, and now it seems like he is building my case for me with the DJ comparisons. (DJ turned out to be a very good player for us.  If Ellison is close to him he will be very valuable to us.) Poison said his pedigree does not translate to anything we can see right now, so why doesn't he get in the gym and lift and develop his game, right now.  Agreed.  How do you know he won't.  Like I said, lets not give up on him yet.

Why would one say I'm hoping he transfers?

Anyway, what you said despite all the bleating to the contrary was: "If he's not much better by next February, then it will be time to transfer." February would be 3 months into his sophomore year. By that criteria Dom Pointer and Phil Greene should have transferred, because they stunk as sophomores. As do many players. The idea that this program is in a position to start throwing players over the transom because they do not perform after a year and a half is laughable.

Except in rare cases a transfer is a failure. It means the staff has chosen the wrong player or the staff has failed to develop the right player or the right player has chosen the wrong school or or the wrong player has failed to take advantage of the right opportunity. You might be looking forward to more failure come next February, but I'm not. I'm sick of failure.

Despite all the obfuscation from your "poesy", you're actually making a reasonable point.  And it's not all that far off from mine.  I  think Ellison needs to be given a good chance here.

I would disagree with you, though, in a few ways.  First of all, Pointer showed ridiculous ability in his Freshman year.  Way beyond what Ellison showed.  Secondly, we now have recruited over Ellison's head with Simon and Clarke, so if he is not developing by next season, he will just be wasting away on the bench.  It would be better for him if he transfers and develops at a lower level.  It's just my take on it.   And thirdly, next February will be six months into his Sophomore year.  Remember, individual workouts start in September (Actually there are Summer workouts too).  And by February, he will have less then a month left in his second season.  If by the end of his Sophomore year, he hasn't shown signs of good development, that is the time to look into transferring. That's all I was saying.  I'm very optimistic though, as I've stated, that he will develop, because he has such good pedigree, and he is said to be a hard worker.

I hope you keep posting during the offseason, Foad, it makes the board a heck of a lot more interesting and lively.

Ellison is a gym rat with a pedigree.  He'll develop.

Ellison is a gym rat with a pedigree.  He'll develop.

This has been my hope for a while. Kid has the bloodline and from what the staff says he works his tail off so he has a real shot to develop. We will see this season.....