Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life

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SJUFAN

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Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2016, 10:29:11 PM »
It's not the governments job to feed kids. If you can't take care of your kid or don't want to, don't have them. Keep your legs crossed and zipper up . If you can't take care of yourself, how can you possibly provide for your 7 kids?

The people are the government, and decide what they should or shouldn't be doing, in theory of course. But really, they are having kids even though they can't provide for them. Now what? What is the solution? This isn't a black/white issue but a socio economic one as more people from European decent are on public assistance. Kids grow up, get stronger, remove the safety net and you risk an uprising if your society continues to embrace a capitalistic system.

Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2016, 10:42:05 PM »
It's not the governments job to feed kids. If you can't take care of your kid or don't want to, don't have them. Keep your legs crossed and zipper up . If you can't take care of yourself, how can you possibly provide for your 7 kids?

The people are the government, and decide what they should or shouldn't be doing, in theory of course. But really, they are having kids even though they can't provide for them. Now what? What is the solution? This isn't a black/white issue but a socio economic one as more people from European decent are on public assistance. Kids grow up, get stronger, remove the safety net and you risk an uprising if your society continues to embrace a capitalistic system.

Start with drug tests for welfare assistance. And those physically able that are on assistance need to do something...take classes, mop and sweep the street, something.  I'm not talking about elderly, veterans or disabled. Random searches of the households that are on govt assistance. Weapons or drugs found, out on your arse you go. There is zero incentive to work or better yourself while your sitting at home waiting for the 1st of the month. 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 10:43:19 PM by Marco Baldi »

desco80

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Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2016, 10:58:13 PM »
It's not the governments job to feed kids. If you can't take care of your kid or don't want to, don't have them. Keep your legs crossed and zipper up . If you can't take care of yourself, how can you possibly provide for your 7 kids?

The people are the government, and decide what they should or shouldn't be doing, in theory of course. But really, they are having kids even though they can't provide for them. Now what? What is the solution? This isn't a black/white issue but a socio economic one as more people from European decent are on public assistance. Kids grow up, get stronger, remove the safety net and you risk an uprising if your society continues to embrace a capitalistic system.

Start with drug tests for welfare assistance. And those physically able that are on assistance need to do something...take classes, mop and sweep the street, something.  I'm not talking about elderly, veterans or disabled. Random searches of the households that are on govt assistance. Weapons or drugs found, out on your arse you go. There is zero incentive to work or better yourself while your sitting at home waiting for the 1st of the month. 

That would be an illegal search.  A government benefit can't be conditioned on an unrelated requirement.
Youre eligible for food stamps if you're poor.   You're eligible for a library card if you are of age and prove residency.   

Drug testing or searching the homes of recipients would be like taking away grandma's medicare if she has outstanding parking tickets.  It's unrelated to her eligibility for the benefit.


Also, Fun, braintrust and Co. ... I hate to be the one to bring facts to a cliche fight, but the War on Poverty has been a resounding success.  It is undisputable that welfare programs reduce proverty.  Both here and abroad.   Prior to 1967 the poverty rate was 26%, today it's 15%.  And yes, that includes inflation and the cost of living adjustments. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/study-us-poverty-rate-decreased-over-past-half-century-thanks-to-safety-net-programs/2013/12/09/9322c834-60f3-11e3-94ad-004fefa61ee6_story.html

Furthermore, every country that has initiated a "welfare state", has seen a precipitous drop in objective poverty.   The morality and fairness of a welfare state can certainly be debated.  But it is a fact that government redistribution reduces the poverty rate. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare%27s_effect_on_poverty

Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2016, 11:05:27 PM »
It's not the governments job to feed kids. If you can't take care of your kid or don't want to, don't have them. Keep your legs crossed and zipper up . If you can't take care of yourself, how can you possibly provide for your 7 kids?

The people are the government, and decide what they should or shouldn't be doing, in theory of course. But really, they are having kids even though they can't provide for them. Now what? What is the solution? This isn't a black/white issue but a socio economic one as more people from European decent are on public assistance. Kids grow up, get stronger, remove the safety net and you risk an uprising if your society continues to embrace a capitalistic system.

Start with drug tests for welfare assistance. And those physically able that are on assistance need to do something...take classes, mop and sweep the street, something.  I'm not talking about elderly, veterans or disabled. Random searches of the households that are on govt assistance. Weapons or drugs found, out on your arse you go. There is zero incentive to work or better yourself while your sitting at home waiting for the 1st of the month. 

That would be an illegal search.  A government benefit can't be conditioned on an unrelated requirement.
Youre eligible for food stamps if you're poor.   You're eligible for a library card if you are of age and prove residency.   

Drug testing or searching the homes of recipients would be like taking away grandma's medicare if she has outstanding parking tickets.  It's unrelated to her eligibility for the benefit.


Also, Fun, braintrust and Co. ... I hate to be the one to bring facts to a cliche fight, but the War on Poverty has been a resounding success.  It is undisputable that welfare programs reduce proverty.  Both here and abroad.   Prior to 1967 the poverty rate was 26%, today it's 15%.  And yes, that includes inflation and the cost of living adjustments. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/study-us-poverty-rate-decreased-over-past-half-century-thanks-to-safety-net-programs/2013/12/09/9322c834-60f3-11e3-94ad-004fefa61ee6_story.html

Furthermore, every country that has initiated a "welfare state", has seen a precipitous drop in objective poverty.   The morality and fairness of a welfare state can certainly be debated.  But it is a fact that government redistribution reduces the poverty rate. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare%27s_effect_on_poverty

If the housing is paid by the government(us) in any way,  how is that an illegal search? I have to pass a drug test to get a job which pays me, why shouldn't the govt do the same to people they are funding?  I know it's the law, not really looking for an answer
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 11:06:09 PM by Marco Baldi »

desco80

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Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2016, 11:11:40 PM »
Lastly, the so called "welfare trap", or disincentive to work is rarely applicable now under reforms that have put time limits on benefits, require work or public service, or have gradual means testing for elidgibility.   Benefit programs aren't all or nothing.  You retain some elidgibility as you enter a low paying job so that cumulatively you're earning more than you did in just benefits alone. 

It requires a broader view, but helping your neighbor helps you.  Nobody wants to pay more taxes so that we can have benefits to help homeowners avoid foreclosure.   But if your two neighbors are foreclosed on... your own home's value is going to plummet.  Everyone in the neighborhood will suffer.  Same is true for a single mother who is unemployed.   A safety net lifts all boats, otherwise we'd have more ghettos and drug addicts roaming the streets and that means less customers ans markets for whatever it is you or your company sell ... and that results in less "good" middle class jobs etc.

Public assistance isn't perfect.  And there can be fraud and disincentive.  But it's the best option for a complex society.  Tweak it to be more generous or restrictive .. whatever, but the notion that it can be done away with completely or even on a large scale... that's a fallacy.

desco80

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Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2016, 11:14:54 PM »
It's not the governments job to feed kids. If you can't take care of your kid or don't want to, don't have them. Keep your legs crossed and zipper up . If you can't take care of yourself, how can you possibly provide for your 7 kids?

The people are the government, and decide what they should or shouldn't be doing, in theory of course. But really, they are having kids even though they can't provide for them. Now what? What is the solution? This isn't a black/white issue but a socio economic one as more people from European decent are on public assistance. Kids grow up, get stronger, remove the safety net and you risk an uprising if your society continues to embrace a capitalistic system.

Start with drug tests for welfare assistance. And those physically able that are on assistance need to do something...take classes, mop and sweep the street, something.  I'm not talking about elderly, veterans or disabled. Random searches of the households that are on govt assistance. Weapons or drugs found, out on your arse you go. There is zero incentive to work or better yourself while your sitting at home waiting for the 1st of the month. 

That would be an illegal search.  A government benefit can't be conditioned on an unrelated requirement.
Youre eligible for food stamps if you're poor.   You're eligible for a library card if you are of age and prove residency.   

Drug testing or searching the homes of recipients would be like taking away grandma's medicare if she has outstanding parking tickets.  It's unrelated to her eligibility for the benefit.


Also, Fun, braintrust and Co. ... I hate to be the one to bring facts to a cliche fight, but the War on Poverty has been a resounding success.  It is undisputable that welfare programs reduce proverty.  Both here and abroad.   Prior to 1967 the poverty rate was 26%, today it's 15%.  And yes, that includes inflation and the cost of living adjustments. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/study-us-poverty-rate-decreased-over-past-half-century-thanks-to-safety-net-programs/2013/12/09/9322c834-60f3-11e3-94ad-004fefa61ee6_story.html

Furthermore, every country that has initiated a "welfare state", has seen a precipitous drop in objective poverty.   The morality and fairness of a welfare state can certainly be debated.  But it is a fact that government redistribution reduces the poverty rate. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare%27s_effect_on_poverty

If the housing is paid by the government(us) in any way,  how is that an illegal search? I have to pass a drug test to get a job which pays me, why shouldn't the govt do the same to people they are funding?  I know it's the law, not really looking for an answer

It's a fair debate, and I'm not trying to be a know it all but the answer is the 4th amendment gives us a right to privacy from the government, not private entities.   
And for what it's worth your position has been upheld and several states in the south do require drug tests. 

*edit, I take that back.  Scotus struck it down on the grounds that Florida couldn't prove welfare recipients were more likely to be drug users than the general population.
in effect, Florida had no probable cause to search them.  PC has to be specific to an individual person.


Regardlesss, this has gotten off track but I felt the safety net policies needed defending.   
In Jordans case he was able to benefit from them and avoid more abject poverty, and still chose the path he did.   He needs to be held accountable.
but there are plenty of people who used the small help that comes from public housing or school lunches to make a proud living and life.   
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 11:24:53 PM by desco80 »

Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2016, 11:19:27 PM »
It's not the governments job to feed kids. If you can't take care of your kid or don't want to, don't have them. Keep your legs crossed and zipper up . If you can't take care of yourself, how can you possibly provide for your 7 kids?

The people are the government, and decide what they should or shouldn't be doing, in theory of course. But really, they are having kids even though they can't provide for them. Now what? What is the solution? This isn't a black/white issue but a socio economic one as more people from European decent are on public assistance. Kids grow up, get stronger, remove the safety net and you risk an uprising if your society continues to embrace a capitalistic system.

Start with drug tests for welfare assistance. And those physically able that are on assistance need to do something...take classes, mop and sweep the street, something.  I'm not talking about elderly, veterans or disabled. Random searches of the households that are on govt assistance. Weapons or drugs found, out on your arse you go. There is zero incentive to work or better yourself while your sitting at home waiting for the 1st of the month. 

That would be an illegal search.  A government benefit can't be conditioned on an unrelated requirement.
Youre eligible for food stamps if you're poor.   You're eligible for a library card if you are of age and prove residency.   

Drug testing or searching the homes of recipients would be like taking away grandma's medicare if she has outstanding parking tickets.  It's unrelated to her eligibility for the benefit.


Also, Fun, braintrust and Co. ... I hate to be the one to bring facts to a cliche fight, but the War on Poverty has been a resounding success.  It is undisputable that welfare programs reduce proverty.  Both here and abroad.   Prior to 1967 the poverty rate was 26%, today it's 15%.  And yes, that includes inflation and the cost of living adjustments. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/study-us-poverty-rate-decreased-over-past-half-century-thanks-to-safety-net-programs/2013/12/09/9322c834-60f3-11e3-94ad-004fefa61ee6_story.html

Furthermore, every country that has initiated a "welfare state", has seen a precipitous drop in objective poverty.   The morality and fairness of a welfare state can certainly be debated.  But it is a fact that government redistribution reduces the poverty rate. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare%27s_effect_on_poverty

If the housing is paid by the government(us) in any way,  how is that an illegal search? I have to pass a drug test to get a job which pays me, why shouldn't the govt do the same to people they are funding?  I know it's the law, not really looking for an answer

It's a fair debate, and I'm not trying to be a know it all but the answer is the 4th amendment gives us a right to privacy from the government, not private entities.   
And for what it's worth your position has been upheld and several states in the south do require drug tests. 

Yes, those states are a great start.

What I dont understand is - if the government is paying for your housing,  how is that an invasion of privacy? They own you

goredmen

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Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2016, 11:54:24 PM »
It's not the governments job to feed kids. If you can't take care of your kid or don't want to, don't have them. Keep your legs crossed and zipper up . If you can't take care of yourself, how can you possibly provide for your 7 kids?

The people are the government, and decide what they should or shouldn't be doing, in theory of course. But really, they are having kids even though they can't provide for them. Now what? What is the solution? This isn't a black/white issue but a socio economic one as more people from European decent are on public assistance. Kids grow up, get stronger, remove the safety net and you risk an uprising if your society continues to embrace a capitalistic system.

Start with drug tests for welfare assistance. And those physically able that are on assistance need to do something...take classes, mop and sweep the street, something.  I'm not talking about elderly, veterans or disabled. Random searches of the households that are on govt assistance. Weapons or drugs found, out on your arse you go. There is zero incentive to work or better yourself while your sitting at home waiting for the 1st of the month. 

Also, Fun, braintrust and Co. ... I hate to be the one to bring facts to a cliche fight, but the War on Poverty has been a resounding success.  It is undisputable that welfare programs reduce proverty.  Both here and abroad.   Prior to 1967 the poverty rate was 26%, today it's 15%.  And yes, that includes inflation and the cost of living adjustments. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/study-us-poverty-rate-decreased-over-past-half-century-thanks-to-safety-net-programs/2013/12/09/9322c834-60f3-11e3-94ad-004fefa61ee6_story.html

Furthermore, every country that has initiated a "welfare state", has seen a precipitous drop in objective poverty.   The morality and fairness of a welfare state can certainly be debated.  But it is a fact that government redistribution reduces the poverty rate. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare%27s_effect_on_poverty

uh, no.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/louiswoodhill/2014/03/19/the-war-on-poverty-wasnt-a-failure-it-was-a-catastrophe/#2279a4517b6c

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/19/rector-the-war-on-poverty-50-years-of-failure/

"The U.S. Census Bureau has just released its annual poverty report. The report claims that in 2013, 14.5 percent of Americans were poor. Remarkably, that’s almost the same poverty rate as in 1967, three years after the War on Poverty started."

Well it didn't go up so I guess it's a resounding success! Let's spend trillions more to keep it there!
« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 12:00:53 AM by goredmen »

Foad

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Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #68 on: June 04, 2016, 06:10:33 AM »
Well it didn't go up so I guess it's a resounding success! Let's spend trillions more to keep it there!

Piling on.

"This week, the Census Bureau will most likely report that the poverty rate last year was about 14 percent, essentially the same rate as in 1967, three years after the War on Poverty was announced ... according to the Census, there has been no net progress in reducing poverty since the mid to late 1960s. Since that time, the poverty rate has undulated slowly, falling by two to three percentage points during good economic times and rising by a similar amount when the economy slows. Overall, the trajectory of official poverty for the past 45 years has been flat or slightly upward.

The static nature of poverty is especially surprising because (as Chart 1 also shows) poverty fell dramatically during the period before the War on Poverty began. In 1950, the poverty rate was 32.2 percent. By 1965 (the first year during which any War on Poverty programs began to operate), the rate had been cut nearly in half to 17.3 percent"

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/09/the-war-on-poverty-after-50-years

Even if Desco's "facts" were correct, the government spent 22 trillion dollars over 50 years and managed to reduce the poverty rate by 10 percent. That's not a resounding success. It's not a resounding anything. There are about 50 million people living below the poverty line. So the US spent 5 million dollars per person to move 5 million people from poverty to the lower middle class.


Foad

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Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #69 on: June 04, 2016, 06:46:37 AM »
It requires a broader view, but helping your neighbor helps you.  Nobody wants to pay more taxes so that we can have benefits to help homeowners avoid foreclosure.   But if your two neighbors are foreclosed on... your own home's value is going to plummet.  Everyone in the neighborhood will suffer.  Same is true for a single mother who is unemployed.   A safety net lifts all boats, otherwise we'd have more ghettos and drug addicts roaming the streets and that means less customers ans markets for whatever it is you or your company sell ... and that results in less "good" middle class jobs etc.

Nobody's saying you shouldn't help your neighbor Gandhi. The question is how your neighbor gets helped and whether the "help" your neighbor gets actually benefits your neighbor. The federal government incentivizing single parent households doesn't help anyone. Instead, it creates a permanent underclass living in a culture of poverty, pathology and dependency.

Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #70 on: June 04, 2016, 08:54:07 AM »
The worst thing to happen to the black family in the last fifty years is the LBJ "Great Society". Totally demasculated the black male and uninspired the black male for taking responsibility for his family. Why should the black male, who up until then had only mediocre patriarchal/father figures, marry the mother of his children, provide for his family and be a father to his children? Thanks to the "Great Society", single mothers and their children were given free housing [Section 8], free medical care [Medicaid], free money [welfare] and free additional benefits [WIC, Food Stamps, etc.] Why should the father of the children of single mothers get up at 4am to work a construction job? The state and federal benefits far outweigh what that man could have done in a legitimite blue collar or white collar job.

Its called a cycle, because there is no end, it just keeps going and going, generation to generation. Thank you LBJ and the Congress of 1965.

Racist.

Just kidding. The democrat party comprises a permanent underclass maintained by a cadre of government and quasi government bureaucrats, unions and the chattering classes. The ultimate goal of the system is to diminish personal liberty in the name of the greater good and in favor of the benign fascism of an ever growing government leviathan. The destruction of minority families and communities is critical to that effort. 

Home Run, Foad. The Democratic party, its allies in the unions and mass media have 0% interest in helping poverty classes, uneducated classes and any under class rise to become educated and self sufficient.  They stay in power by giving a man a fish rather than teaching him how to fish. The examples are too numerous to list. Posting the LBJ quote was spot on.

Poison

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Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #71 on: June 04, 2016, 09:25:29 AM »
The worst thing to happen to the black family in the last fifty years is the LBJ "Great Society". Totally demasculated the black male and uninspired the black male for taking responsibility for his family. Why should the black male, who up until then had only mediocre patriarchal/father figures, marry the mother of his children, provide for his family and be a father to his children? Thanks to the "Great Society", single mothers and their children were given free housing [Section 8], free medical care [Medicaid], free money [welfare] and free additional benefits [WIC, Food Stamps, etc.] Why should the father of the children of single mothers get up at 4am to work a construction job? The state and federal benefits far outweigh what that man could have done in a legitimite blue collar or white collar job.

Its called a cycle, because there is no end, it just keeps going and going, generation to generation. Thank you LBJ and the Congress of 1965.

Racist.

Just kidding. The democrat party comprises a permanent underclass maintained by a cadre of government and quasi government bureaucrats, unions and the chattering classes. The ultimate goal of the system is to diminish personal liberty in the name of the greater good and in favor of the benign fascism of an ever growing government leviathan. The destruction of minority families and communities is critical to that effort. 

Home Run, Foad. The Democratic party, its allies in the unions and mass media have 0% interest in helping poverty classes, uneducated classes and any under class rise to become educated and self sufficient.  They stay in power by giving a man a fish rather than teaching him how to fish. The examples are too numerous to list. Posting the LBJ quote was spot on.

Good thing, the Republican Party has a great leader in Donald Trump to fight for the poverty stricken people of our country. What a great man he is.

Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #72 on: June 04, 2016, 10:09:53 AM »
The worst thing to happen to the black family in the last fifty years is the LBJ "Great Society". Totally demasculated the black male and uninspired the black male for taking responsibility for his family. Why should the black male, who up until then had only mediocre patriarchal/father figures, marry the mother of his children, provide for his family and be a father to his children? Thanks to the "Great Society", single mothers and their children were given free housing [Section 8], free medical care [Medicaid], free money [welfare] and free additional benefits [WIC, Food Stamps, etc.] Why should the father of the children of single mothers get up at 4am to work a construction job? The state and federal benefits far outweigh what that man could have done in a legitimite blue collar or white collar job.

Its called a cycle, because there is no end, it just keeps going and going, generation to generation. Thank you LBJ and the Congress of 1965.

Racist.

Just kidding. The democrat party comprises a permanent underclass maintained by a cadre of government and quasi government bureaucrats, unions and the chattering classes. The ultimate goal of the system is to diminish personal liberty in the name of the greater good and in favor of the benign fascism of an ever growing government leviathan. The destruction of minority families and communities is critical to that effort. 

Home Run, Foad. The Democratic party, its allies in the unions and mass media have 0% interest in helping poverty classes, uneducated classes and any under class rise to become educated and self sufficient.  They stay in power by giving a man a fish rather than teaching him how to fish. The examples are too numerous to list. Posting the LBJ quote was spot on.

Good thing, the Republican Party has a great leader in Donald Trump to fight for the poverty stricken people of our country. What a great man he is.

This

Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #73 on: June 04, 2016, 10:24:36 AM »
It took all this for me to notice Ima be back soon #sheedwords

Dudes that i fed and looked out for can't even make sure that my family is ok I be back soon #sheedwords
« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 10:27:57 AM by Marco Baldi »

SJUFAN

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Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #74 on: June 04, 2016, 03:34:15 PM »
Well it didn't go up so I guess it's a resounding success! Let's spend trillions more to keep it there!

Piling on.

"This week, the Census Bureau will most likely report that the poverty rate last year was about 14 percent, essentially the same rate as in 1967, three years after the War on Poverty was announced ... according to the Census, there has been no net progress in reducing poverty since the mid to late 1960s. Since that time, the poverty rate has undulated slowly, falling by two to three percentage points during good economic times and rising by a similar amount when the economy slows. Overall, the trajectory of official poverty for the past 45 years has been flat or slightly upward.

The static nature of poverty is especially surprising because (as Chart 1 also shows) poverty fell dramatically during the period before the War on Poverty began. In 1950, the poverty rate was 32.2 percent. By 1965 (the first year during which any War on Poverty programs began to operate), the rate had been cut nearly in half to 17.3 percent"

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/09/the-war-on-poverty-after-50-years

Even if Desco's "facts" were correct, the government spent 22 trillion dollars over 50 years and managed to reduce the poverty rate by 10 percent. That's not a resounding success. It's not a resounding anything. There are about 50 million people living below the poverty line. So the US spent 5 million dollars per person to move 5 million people from poverty to the lower middle class.



Don't think its that simple. I hear the pundits speak about how poor of a recovery we have from the "great recession" compared to previous recovery's and quote numbers to prove it. Its misleading. The economic landscape has changed drastically today from yester year. What is never mentioned is the fact that technology has given companies the ability to outsource a significant amount of their workforce as compare to 50 years ago. Mostly low/entry level positions. This undoubtedly impacts the poverty level. I cant deny that a side effect of public assistance perpetuate a pathology of dependency. There will always be a segment of the population that takes advantage of situations. However, by its very nature, a capitalist system will have a segment of its population in poverty, public assistance is not the cause, it attempts to be a solution. The question is then, how else should this population be addressed if you took away the safety net?   

goredmen

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Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #75 on: June 04, 2016, 03:51:43 PM »
Well it didn't go up so I guess it's a resounding success! Let's spend trillions more to keep it there!

Piling on.

"This week, the Census Bureau will most likely report that the poverty rate last year was about 14 percent, essentially the same rate as in 1967, three years after the War on Poverty was announced ... according to the Census, there has been no net progress in reducing poverty since the mid to late 1960s. Since that time, the poverty rate has undulated slowly, falling by two to three percentage points during good economic times and rising by a similar amount when the economy slows. Overall, the trajectory of official poverty for the past 45 years has been flat or slightly upward.

The static nature of poverty is especially surprising because (as Chart 1 also shows) poverty fell dramatically during the period before the War on Poverty began. In 1950, the poverty rate was 32.2 percent. By 1965 (the first year during which any War on Poverty programs began to operate), the rate had been cut nearly in half to 17.3 percent"

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/09/the-war-on-poverty-after-50-years

Even if Desco's "facts" were correct, the government spent 22 trillion dollars over 50 years and managed to reduce the poverty rate by 10 percent. That's not a resounding success. It's not a resounding anything. There are about 50 million people living below the poverty line. So the US spent 5 million dollars per person to move 5 million people from poverty to the lower middle class.



Don't think its that simple. I hear the pundits speak about how poor of a recovery we have from the "great recession" compared to previous recovery's and quote numbers to prove it. Its misleading. The economic landscape has changed drastically today from yester year. What is never mentioned is the fact that technology has given companies the ability to outsource a significant amount of their workforce as compare to 50 years ago. Mostly low/entry level positions. This undoubtedly impacts the poverty level. I cant deny that a side effect of public assistance perpetuate a pathology of dependency. There will always be a segment of the population that takes advantage of situations. However, by its very nature, a capitalist system will have a segment of its population in poverty, public assistance is not the cause, it attempts to be a solution. The question is then, how else should this population be addressed if you took away the safety net?   

I don't think anybody wants to do away with a safety net, however a safety net is way different than the runaway welfare state we currently have which deincentivizes people from working because they make as much or more in welfare than the would working a low skilled job. If you don't think there is a HUGE number of able bodied individuals that choose not to work because they are content with staying on welfare then you need to get out of the house more.

"However, by its very nature, a capitalist system will have a segment of its population in poverty".

What other system doesn't or wouldn't have a segment of it's population in poverty?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 03:52:31 PM by goredmen »

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Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #76 on: June 04, 2016, 04:26:07 PM »
Don't think its that simple. I hear the pundits speak about how poor of a recovery we have from the "great recession" compared to previous recovery's and quote numbers to prove it. Its misleading. The economic landscape has changed drastically today from yester year. What is never mentioned is the fact that technology has given companies the ability to outsource a significant amount of their workforce as compare to 50 years ago. Mostly low/entry level positions. This undoubtedly impacts the poverty level. I cant deny that a side effect of public assistance perpetuate a pathology of dependency. There will always be a segment of the population that takes advantage of situations. However, by its very nature, a capitalist system will have a segment of its population in poverty, public assistance is not the cause, it attempts to be a solution. The question is then, how else should this population be addressed if you took away the safety net?   

In the first place, capitalism is the greatest instrument of social change the world has ever known. It has brought more people more wealth and more prosperity than all other economic systems combined. Whereas the socialism so beloved by progressives purposefully killed twice as many people in the last century than died in two world wars: 30 million dead of engineered mass starvation in the Soviet Union; another 30 million "reeducated" in China; two thirds of the population murdered in Cambodia. So I find it hard to take you seriously when you talk about the "capitalist system," as if there's another alternative. There isn't. Sweden wouldn't exist today if not for NATO, paid for by capitalism.

As to the poor, the poor will always be with you. As to the social safety net, I don't deny that there are those who need charity and that in a civilized society there is an imperative to deliver charity to them. By all means feed the poor, treat the sick, accommodate the infirm. The question is how to best serve those in need, who should do the serving, and who should pay for it. In my utopia local charities would care for local needies through voluntary contributions - even I give money to charity and I hate everyone. (Also in my utopia my bong would have a vagina.) In a republic state and local governments would tend to deprived citizens through reasonable and fairly legislated taxation. In the US today charity is administered by a ravenous brobdingnagian federal bureaucracy that perpetuates poverty and despair in the name of compassion, as a means of usurping the liberty of its citizens, with the goal of making them its subjects. The worst of it is the incentivizing of single parent households, which by every metric is a plague upon children and communities.

As to the economy, there was in the past a great depression, various lesser depressions, a couple of world wars, a civil war, various other wars, a dust bowl, and floods of biblical proportion. At the beginning of the 20th century 100 million people - 5 percent of the world's population - died from the flu. (Fortunately capitalism found a cure.) If the greatest threat to its security this generation faces is outsourcing, that's a pretty sweet deal. If the current cadre of whiny progressives hadn't spent their childhoods wearing bicycle helmets while playing T ball and not keeping score having to work a minimum wage job wouldn't seem as onerous as it does.

SJUFAN

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Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #77 on: June 04, 2016, 04:45:02 PM »
Well it didn't go up so I guess it's a resounding success! Let's spend trillions more to keep it there!

Piling on.

"This week, the Census Bureau will most likely report that the poverty rate last year was about 14 percent, essentially the same rate as in 1967, three years after the War on Poverty was announced ... according to the Census, there has been no net progress in reducing poverty since the mid to late 1960s. Since that time, the poverty rate has undulated slowly, falling by two to three percentage points during good economic times and rising by a similar amount when the economy slows. Overall, the trajectory of official poverty for the past 45 years has been flat or slightly upward.

The static nature of poverty is especially surprising because (as Chart 1 also shows) poverty fell dramatically during the period before the War on Poverty began. In 1950, the poverty rate was 32.2 percent. By 1965 (the first year during which any War on Poverty programs began to operate), the rate had been cut nearly in half to 17.3 percent"

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/09/the-war-on-poverty-after-50-years

Even if Desco's "facts" were correct, the government spent 22 trillion dollars over 50 years and managed to reduce the poverty rate by 10 percent. That's not a resounding success. It's not a resounding anything. There are about 50 million people living below the poverty line. So the US spent 5 million dollars per person to move 5 million people from poverty to the lower middle class.



Don't think its that simple. I hear the pundits speak about how poor of a recovery we have from the "great recession" compared to previous recovery's and quote numbers to prove it. Its misleading. The economic landscape has changed drastically today from yester year. What is never mentioned is the fact that technology has given companies the ability to outsource a significant amount of their workforce as compare to 50 years ago. Mostly low/entry level positions. This undoubtedly impacts the poverty level. I cant deny that a side effect of public assistance perpetuate a pathology of dependency. There will always be a segment of the population that takes advantage of situations. However, by its very nature, a capitalist system will have a segment of its population in poverty, public assistance is not the cause, it attempts to be a solution. The question is then, how else should this population be addressed if you took away the safety net?   

I don't think anybody wants to do away with a safety net, however a safety net is way different than the runaway welfare state we currently have which deincentivizes people from working because they make as much or more in welfare than the would working a low skilled job. If you don't think there is a HUGE number of able bodied individuals that choose not to work because they are content with staying on welfare then you need to get out of the house more.

"However, by its very nature, a capitalist system will have a segment of its population in poverty".

What other system doesn't or wouldn't have a segment of it's population in poverty?


Of course there will be people who take advantage of situations. I'm not denying that. However when you say people have no incentive due to them earning as much or more in welfare, I'm curious, do you know what the actual benefit amounts are for recipients? I'll tell you its not as much as you may think. 

SJUFAN

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Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #78 on: June 04, 2016, 04:56:12 PM »
Don't think its that simple. I hear the pundits speak about how poor of a recovery we have from the "great recession" compared to previous recovery's and quote numbers to prove it. Its misleading. The economic landscape has changed drastically today from yester year. What is never mentioned is the fact that technology has given companies the ability to outsource a significant amount of their workforce as compare to 50 years ago. Mostly low/entry level positions. This undoubtedly impacts the poverty level. I cant deny that a side effect of public assistance perpetuate a pathology of dependency. There will always be a segment of the population that takes advantage of situations. However, by its very nature, a capitalist system will have a segment of its population in poverty, public assistance is not the cause, it attempts to be a solution. The question is then, how else should this population be addressed if you took away the safety net?   

In the first place, capitalism is the greatest instrument of social change the world has ever known. It has brought more people more wealth and more prosperity than all other economic systems combined. Whereas the socialism so beloved by progressives purposefully killed twice as many people in the last century than died in two world wars: 30 million dead of engineered mass starvation in the Soviet Union; another 30 million "reeducated" in China; two thirds of the population murdered in Cambodia. So I find it hard to take you seriously when you talk about the "capitalist system," as if there's another alternative. There isn't. Sweden wouldn't exist today if not for NATO, paid for by capitalism.

As to the poor, the poor will always be with you. As to the social safety net, I don't deny that there are those who need charity and that in a civilized society there is an imperative to deliver charity to them. By all means feed the poor, treat the sick, accommodate the infirm. The question is how to best serve those in need, who should do the serving, and who should pay for it. In my utopia local charities would care for local needies through voluntary contributions - even I give money to charity and I hate everyone. (Also in my utopia my bong would have a vagina.) In a republic state and local governments would tend to deprived citizens through reasonable and fairly legislated taxation. In the US today charity is administered by a ravenous brobdingnagian federal bureaucracy that perpetuates poverty and despair in the name of compassion, as a means of usurping the liberty of its citizens, with the goal of making them its subjects. The worst of it is the incentivizing of single parent households, which by every metric is a plague upon children and communities.

As to the economy, there was in the past a great depression, various lesser depressions, a couple of world wars, a civil war, various other wars, a dust bowl, and floods of biblical proportion. At the beginning of the 20th century 100 million people - 5 percent of the world's population - died from the flu. (Fortunately capitalism found a cure.) If the greatest threat to its security this generation faces is outsourcing, that's a pretty sweet deal. If the current cadre of whiny progressives hadn't spent their childhoods wearing bicycle helmets while playing T ball and not keeping score having to work a minimum wage job wouldn't seem as onerous as it does.

I'm not bashing a capitalistic market economy. As you stated it has been very beneficial. Although if we focus on addressing poverty, then a command economy would address that, however there are other issue with that as well. There is no magic bullet, the impoverished will always be with us, many complain about it yet are unable to provide a realistic solution.   

"Capital in the Twenty-First Century, Thomas Piketty of the Paris School of Economics asserts that inequality is the inevitable consequence of economic growth in a capitalist economy and the resulting concentration of wealth can destabilize democratic societies and undermine the ideals of social justice upon which they are built."
« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 04:59:15 PM by SJUFAN »

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Re: Rysheed Jordan - Skills for Life
« Reply #79 on: June 04, 2016, 05:32:14 PM »
Don't think its that simple. I hear the pundits speak about how poor of a recovery we have from the "great recession" compared to previous recovery's and quote numbers to prove it. Its misleading. The economic landscape has changed drastically today from yester year. What is never mentioned is the fact that technology has given companies the ability to outsource a significant amount of their workforce as compare to 50 years ago. Mostly low/entry level positions. This undoubtedly impacts the poverty level. I cant deny that a side effect of public assistance perpetuate a pathology of dependency. There will always be a segment of the population that takes advantage of situations. However, by its very nature, a capitalist system will have a segment of its population in poverty, public assistance is not the cause, it attempts to be a solution. The question is then, how else should this population be addressed if you took away the safety net?   

In the first place, capitalism is the greatest instrument of social change the world has ever known. It has brought more people more wealth and more prosperity than all other economic systems combined. Whereas the socialism so beloved by progressives purposefully killed twice as many people in the last century than died in two world wars: 30 million dead of engineered mass starvation in the Soviet Union; another 30 million "reeducated" in China; two thirds of the population murdered in Cambodia. So I find it hard to take you seriously when you talk about the "capitalist system," as if there's another alternative. There isn't. Sweden wouldn't exist today if not for NATO, paid for by capitalism.

As to the poor, the poor will always be with you. As to the social safety net, I don't deny that there are those who need charity and that in a civilized society there is an imperative to deliver charity to them. By all means feed the poor, treat the sick, accommodate the infirm. The question is how to best serve those in need, who should do the serving, and who should pay for it. In my utopia local charities would care for local needies through voluntary contributions - even I give money to charity and I hate everyone. (Also in my utopia my bong would have a vagina.) In a republic state and local governments would tend to deprived citizens through reasonable and fairly legislated taxation. In the US today charity is administered by a ravenous brobdingnagian federal bureaucracy that perpetuates poverty and despair in the name of compassion, as a means of usurping the liberty of its citizens, with the goal of making them its subjects. The worst of it is the incentivizing of single parent households, which by every metric is a plague upon children and communities.

As to the economy, there was in the past a great depression, various lesser depressions, a couple of world wars, a civil war, various other wars, a dust bowl, and floods of biblical proportion. At the beginning of the 20th century 100 million people - 5 percent of the world's population - died from the flu. (Fortunately capitalism found a cure.) If the greatest threat to its security this generation faces is outsourcing, that's a pretty sweet deal. If the current cadre of whiny progressives hadn't spent their childhoods wearing bicycle helmets while playing T ball and not keeping score having to work a minimum wage job wouldn't seem as onerous as it does.

I'm not bashing a capitalistic market economy. As you stated it has been very beneficial. Although if we focus on addressing poverty, then a command economy would address that, however there are other issue with that as well. There is no magic bullet, the impoverished will always be with us, many complain about it yet are unable to provide a realistic solution.   

"Capital in the Twenty-First Century, Thomas Piketty of the Paris School of Economics asserts that inequality is the inevitable consequence of economic growth in a capitalist economy and the resulting concentration of wealth can destabilize democratic societies and undermine the ideals of social justice upon which they are built."

Quoting an obscure Frenchman - and a Trotskyite -his  criticism of capitalism does not impress me. As George Will said of Sartre - I paraphrase -  he thought life absurd and thought so philosophy should be also. I'm happy to agree to disagree about that. But there can be no disagreement about the effect of single parent house holding on children and communities. To the extent that the government encourages it, the government is evil