Baruch Game Discussion (Exhib)

Quote from: we are sju on November 02, 2016, 11:58:23 AM

Quote from: Foad on November 02, 2016, 11:41:18 AM

Quote from: we are sju on November 02, 2016, 11:03:18 AM

Quote from: Foad on November 02, 2016, 10:11:24 AM

Dikembe Mutumbo averaged 3 points and 3 rebounds his sophomore year.

I think the problem with Sima here is that it looks like he may not be a perfect fit for the way it looks like the staff wants to play. Not so much this year but starting next year I don't see him getting huge minutes. In rotation for sure but maybe not enough minutes to really develop his offense.

Zero games into a college players sophomore year is too early to write anyone off, much less a seven footer, much less a seven footer who was injured half his freshman year. I'm not saying he's an NBA player, but doubt many posters are astute enough judges of talent to say he's not. As for his being recruited over, only at SJU would recruiting a second 4 star  big man be seen as a negative. Because we are the best one and seventeen team in history.

My only point is I think you see a lot of smaller lineups the next couple years with Yakwe at the 5. I think they would like to play small. Then when you add Brown to the mix it just takes away from some more of Sima's PT.

If they want to play small why are they recruiting bigs? That's rhetorical.

I think maybe they'll play small because they have two guards and three mid size guys - Yawke, BA and Freudenberg - who have enormous upside. If Sima and Owens blossom probably they play big. Hopefully the plan is to put the best five players on the court, whatever size they are.

Was talking more about next year. This year Sima most likely playing 25 a night

Quote from: SJUFAN on November 01, 2016, 11:31:11 PM

Quote from: ras on October 31, 2016, 11:39:09 PM

Quote from: Dave on October 31, 2016, 10:44:48 PM

Bashir reminds me of Jayvaugn Pinkston. I think he can be the kind of player for St. John's. Is tough to stop running downhill. Put a guard on him he bullies him. Put a big on him he blows by.

I think Sima looks like he is getting passed by. I'm hoping we go small ball anyways and probably Brown surpasses him the day he steps on campus.

LoVett, Ponds, Mussini is great combo trio. Add in Ellison to that mix. We're doing just fine. Scary when Simon gets on the court next year.

RF looks comfy at the 3 which is awesome. I was worried he was gonna be stuck at the 4. So much potential.

I'm cool with Amar getting 10-16 min being a pick and pop 4/5. Jack up 3 or 4 threes and sink 1 or 2 of them.

Owens played with good energy. Forget the 12 rebounds against the JV Baruch the hustle was there.

Didn't see the game. But ,what makes you say Sima looks like he is getting passed by?

The talk about him being a NBA player is laughable. The staff appears to be recruiting over him. If that is not a red flag I don't know what is. Outside of him being tall and can block some shots I see a player with a low motor, his shooting mechanics are off which makes his mid range game poor. He's a decent shot blocker but lacks discipline. He's a poor rebounder which is most likely due to the low intensity he plays with, and his ability to guard on the perimeter is poor. Now can he correct some of these things? Maybe. The troubling issue is his motor. You can't teach heart. I don't know if he is wanting to put in the work. 

I think you might be giving up on him too soon. Yes, he's clearly not an NBA player right now. Remember, we've had centers that were rated higher than Sima that would be lucky to have 3 points and 4 rebounds against the little sisters of the poor. Sima still had 5 and 5 in 15 minutes. It's a brand new team, and they looked totally out of whack for the first few minutes, but after that, it was a blowout in every way.

Even though he isn't moving as quickly or as aggressively as I'd like, I still think he can become a good center. He needs to be thinking about what his next move is going to be. If the shot is up, then it's too late to box out for the board. He's not involved in these enough. Sima should get every rebound against these chumps.

I'm not giving up on Sima. He has potential and can be a solid player for us and very well develop into a NBA player. However, he could also develop into a used car salesman. I'm not speaking on "potential". My point is as of today, there is nothing that Sima has shown that would suggest he will definitively be a NBA player like some has suggested and even went as far as saying that if he doesn't its on the staff. There is nothing in his game right now that translate into him being coveted for an NBA roster spot. He's poor in pick and roll situations on both ends of the floor. I'm just pointing out his shortcomings, nothing personal, but this is were he is right now. Obekpa was considered a better prospect at this point in there perspective careers and we see how that turned out.   

Quote from: Poison on November 02, 2016, 09:21:35 AM

Quote from: SJUFAN on November 01, 2016, 11:31:11 PM

Quote from: ras on October 31, 2016, 11:39:09 PM

Quote from: Dave on October 31, 2016, 10:44:48 PM

Bashir reminds me of Jayvaugn Pinkston. I think he can be the kind of player for St. John's. Is tough to stop running downhill. Put a guard on him he bullies him. Put a big on him he blows by.

I think Sima looks like he is getting passed by. I'm hoping we go small ball anyways and probably Brown surpasses him the day he steps on campus.

LoVett, Ponds, Mussini is great combo trio. Add in Ellison to that mix. We're doing just fine. Scary when Simon gets on the court next year.

RF looks comfy at the 3 which is awesome. I was worried he was gonna be stuck at the 4. So much potential.

I'm cool with Amar getting 10-16 min being a pick and pop 4/5. Jack up 3 or 4 threes and sink 1 or 2 of them.

Owens played with good energy. Forget the 12 rebounds against the JV Baruch the hustle was there.

Didn't see the game. But ,what makes you say Sima looks like he is getting passed by?

The talk about him being a NBA player is laughable. The staff appears to be recruiting over him. If that is not a red flag I don't know what is. Outside of him being tall and can block some shots I see a player with a low motor, his shooting mechanics are off which makes his mid range game poor. He's a decent shot blocker but lacks discipline. He's a poor rebounder which is most likely due to the low intensity he plays with, and his ability to guard on the perimeter is poor. Now can he correct some of these things? Maybe. The troubling issue is his motor. You can't teach heart. I don't know if he is wanting to put in the work. 

I think you might be giving up on him too soon. Yes, he's clearly not an NBA player right now. Remember, we've had centers that were rated higher than Sima that would be lucky to have 3 points and 4 rebounds against the little sisters of the poor. Sima still had 5 and 5 in 15 minutes. It's a brand new team, and they looked totally out of whack for the first few minutes, but after that, it was a blowout in every way.

Even though he isn't moving as quickly or as aggressively as I'd like, I still think he can become a good center. He needs to be thinking about what his next move is going to be. If the shot is up, then it's too late to box out for the board. He's not involved in these enough. Sima should get every rebound against these chumps.

I'm not giving up on Sima. He has potential and can be a solid player for us and very well develop into a NBA player. However, he could also develop into a used car salesman. I'm not speaking on "potential". My point is as of today, there is nothing that Sima has shown that would suggest he will definitively be a NBA player like some has suggested and even went as far as saying that if he doesn't its on the staff. There is nothing in his game right now that translate into him being coveted for an NBA roster spot. He's poor in pick and roll situations on both ends of the floor. I'm just pointing out his shortcomings, nothing personal, but this is were he is right now. Obekpa was considered a better prospect at this point in there perspective careers and we see how that turned out.   

Why is he poor in pick and roll situations?

Quote from: Poison on November 02, 2016, 09:21:35 AM

Quote from: SJUFAN on November 01, 2016, 11:31:11 PM

Quote from: ras on October 31, 2016, 11:39:09 PM

Quote from: Dave on October 31, 2016, 10:44:48 PM

Bashir reminds me of Jayvaugn Pinkston. I think he can be the kind of player for St. John's. Is tough to stop running downhill. Put a guard on him he bullies him. Put a big on him he blows by.

I think Sima looks like he is getting passed by. I'm hoping we go small ball anyways and probably Brown surpasses him the day he steps on campus.

LoVett, Ponds, Mussini is great combo trio. Add in Ellison to that mix. We're doing just fine. Scary when Simon gets on the court next year.

RF looks comfy at the 3 which is awesome. I was worried he was gonna be stuck at the 4. So much potential.

I'm cool with Amar getting 10-16 min being a pick and pop 4/5. Jack up 3 or 4 threes and sink 1 or 2 of them.

Owens played with good energy. Forget the 12 rebounds against the JV Baruch the hustle was there.

Didn't see the game. But ,what makes you say Sima looks like he is getting passed by?

The talk about him being a NBA player is laughable. The staff appears to be recruiting over him. If that is not a red flag I don't know what is. Outside of him being tall and can block some shots I see a player with a low motor, his shooting mechanics are off which makes his mid range game poor. He's a decent shot blocker but lacks discipline. He's a poor rebounder which is most likely due to the low intensity he plays with, and his ability to guard on the perimeter is poor. Now can he correct some of these things? Maybe. The troubling issue is his motor. You can't teach heart. I don't know if he is wanting to put in the work. 

I think you might be giving up on him too soon. Yes, he's clearly not an NBA player right now. Remember, we've had centers that were rated higher than Sima that would be lucky to have 3 points and 4 rebounds against the little sisters of the poor. Sima still had 5 and 5 in 15 minutes. It's a brand new team, and they looked totally out of whack for the first few minutes, but after that, it was a blowout in every way.

Even though he isn't moving as quickly or as aggressively as I'd like, I still think he can become a good center. He needs to be thinking about what his next move is going to be. If the shot is up, then it's too late to box out for the board. He's not involved in these enough. Sima should get every rebound against these chumps.

I'm not giving up on Sima. He has potential and can be a solid player for us and very well develop into a NBA player. However, he could also develop into a used car salesman. I'm not speaking on "potential". My point is as of today, there is nothing that Sima has shown that would suggest he will definitively be a NBA player like some has suggested and even went as far as saying that if he doesn't its on the staff. There is nothing in his game right now that translate into him being coveted for an NBA roster spot. He's poor in pick and roll situations on both ends of the floor. I'm just pointing out his shortcomings, nothing personal, but this is were he is right now. Obekpa was considered a better prospect at this point in there perspective careers and we see how that turned out.   

Obekpa is a better player. It's not even close. For better or worse, Obekpa tried to block everything. The rest of the defense depended on him to pick up anyone that guy by their man, and it seemed like everyone got by our guards. He scared people off. Not everyone, but he was intimidating.

Sima needs to get hungrier. He doesn't scare anyone because he isn't particularly good at anything. Hopefully, he's added an up and under and he just hasn't shown it to us yet. I think he's stronger. He looks stronger. He seems to be trying. Let's see how he does this year. To be on an NBA trajectory, his sophomore year numbers should be 9/10 points, 6/7 boards, 2 + blocks per game. That's a lot of offensive for a guy who will competing with a deep roster loaded with scorers. I think it will be a slower development and his offensive production may actually go down with less playing time.

What I noticed was how quickly Sima got yanked in early minutes of the game.

Great that he hit some FT's and he added some weight to his frame, until he begins to show consistent intensity, I'm not sold on him... but he was the best we were able to get and what we're working with.   Hard to teach intensity... you either see it around you and want it or you don't.

Finally watched the Baruch game.  A few observations.

Sima is far from an NBA prospect but he has learned to shoot free throws.  Must be working hard because his form and results last year were pathetic.

Mussini is stronger and looked great....but this is Baruch, we will see if he can do it against the physical guard play in the BE.  Comfortable off the ball.

Lovett looked good at the point, quick and unselfish.  I don't like his shooting form or trajectory but, who knows? Earl the Pearl had a flat shot also.  All about the backspin for low trajectory guys.

Ponds looked OK, maybe a little tight.....saw enough of him in HS to know he will be fine. 5 steals, wow.

Yakwe played his game and I like it.

Finally, Freud....This is the guy with NBA potential, looked great.  Always in the right spot, nice passer, good handle and quickness for a bigman, beautiful shooter, great form.  Only downsize is weight, needs to go on the traditional SJU diet of Pizza and beer.

I think this is a middle of the pack team. 



 

BTW funny story I forgot to tell ya'll, my friend works for SJU now and go us to be the seat upgrade of the game and we are standing in the stairwell waiting to go out and some woman who was running things comes up to me and my friend w shirts and is like can you please just put on this it says St Johns on it. I was wearing the JJ 718 hoodie and I was just like I'm wearing a SJU hoodie and she was like yeah just put it on. No respect for Dave. >_>

BTW funny story I forgot to tell ya'll, my friend works for SJU now and go us to be the seat upgrade of the game and we are standing in the stairwell waiting to go out and some woman who was running things comes up to me and my friend w shirts and is like can you please just put on this it says St Johns on it. I was wearing the JJ 718 hoodie and I was just like I'm wearing a SJU hoodie and she was like yeah just put it on. No respect for Dave. >_>

10 years later and they are still hating. You'd think by now they'd embrace it.

Last year we lost to a D2 by 30+.  This year we beat a D3 by 50+.  I would say we're improved.

- I like the mustard on Lovett's hot dog.  Quite an entertaining player.  Loved the way the program destroyer pronounced "Maaarcus".

- Laughed when Oedipus tried to hang on the rim after the big dunk and wound up on his aarse. Probably never tried that before.

Quote from: SJUFAN on November 02, 2016, 03:18:08 PM

Quote from: Poison on November 02, 2016, 09:21:35 AM

Quote from: SJUFAN on November 01, 2016, 11:31:11 PM

Quote from: ras on October 31, 2016, 11:39:09 PM

Quote from: Dave on October 31, 2016, 10:44:48 PM

Bashir reminds me of Jayvaugn Pinkston. I think he can be the kind of player for St. John's. Is tough to stop running downhill. Put a guard on him he bullies him. Put a big on him he blows by.

I think Sima looks like he is getting passed by. I'm hoping we go small ball anyways and probably Brown surpasses him the day he steps on campus.

LoVett, Ponds, Mussini is great combo trio. Add in Ellison to that mix. We're doing just fine. Scary when Simon gets on the court next year.

RF looks comfy at the 3 which is awesome. I was worried he was gonna be stuck at the 4. So much potential.

I'm cool with Amar getting 10-16 min being a pick and pop 4/5. Jack up 3 or 4 threes and sink 1 or 2 of them.

Owens played with good energy. Forget the 12 rebounds against the JV Baruch the hustle was there.

Didn't see the game. But ,what makes you say Sima looks like he is getting passed by?

The talk about him being a NBA player is laughable. The staff appears to be recruiting over him. If that is not a red flag I don't know what is. Outside of him being tall and can block some shots I see a player with a low motor, his shooting mechanics are off which makes his mid range game poor. He's a decent shot blocker but lacks discipline. He's a poor rebounder which is most likely due to the low intensity he plays with, and his ability to guard on the perimeter is poor. Now can he correct some of these things? Maybe. The troubling issue is his motor. You can't teach heart. I don't know if he is wanting to put in the work. 

I think you might be giving up on him too soon. Yes, he's clearly not an NBA player right now. Remember, we've had centers that were rated higher than Sima that would be lucky to have 3 points and 4 rebounds against the little sisters of the poor. Sima still had 5 and 5 in 15 minutes. It's a brand new team, and they looked totally out of whack for the first few minutes, but after that, it was a blowout in every way.

Even though he isn't moving as quickly or as aggressively as I'd like, I still think he can become a good center. He needs to be thinking about what his next move is going to be. If the shot is up, then it's too late to box out for the board. He's not involved in these enough. Sima should get every rebound against these chumps.

I'm not giving up on Sima. He has potential and can be a solid player for us and very well develop into a NBA player. However, he could also develop into a used car salesman. I'm not speaking on "potential". My point is as of today, there is nothing that Sima has shown that would suggest he will definitively be a NBA player like some has suggested and even went as far as saying that if he doesn't its on the staff. There is nothing in his game right now that translate into him being coveted for an NBA roster spot. He's poor in pick and roll situations on both ends of the floor. I'm just pointing out his shortcomings, nothing personal, but this is were he is right now. Obekpa was considered a better prospect at this point in there perspective careers and we see how that turned out.   

Why is he poor in pick and roll situations?

Offensively he doesn't set solid enough screens to free his teammate. He appears to shy away from contact. He's not a good shooter from the perimeter so he's not a threat to pick and pop. Defensively he struggles containing guards on the perimeter due to his poor footwork which makes him susceptible to dribble penetration. Defensively, Obekpa was excellent at this btw. Granted Obekpa was more of a 4 than a 5, but none the less Sima will need to improve in these areas.

He's a 6' 11" center that finished second in the BE in blocked shots as a freshmen despite missing much of the season.

Give the young man a break.

Defensively he struggles containing guards on the perimeter due to his poor footwork which makes him susceptible to dribble penetration.

As opposed to all those other seven footers who are able to stop point guards 30 feet from the basket. No doubt you'll give us various examples of centers who excel at guarding point guards.

Defensively, Obekpa was excellent at this btw.

Yes, Chris Obekpa was "excellent" at "containing guards on the perimeter." You're funny.

Quote from: SJUFAN on November 03, 2016, 12:02:02 AM

Defensively he struggles containing guards on the perimeter due to his poor footwork which makes him susceptible to dribble penetration.

As opposed to all those other seven footers who are able to stop point guards 30 feet from the basket. No doubt you'll give us various examples of centers who excel at guarding point guards.

Quote

Defensively, Obekpa was excellent at this btw.

Yes, Chris Obekpa was "excellent" at "containing guards on the perimeter." You're funny.

I don't think of them could or should be trying to guard a point or shooting guard. The thing is, Sima actually tries to. When he should have his hands up to block passes, they are down at his sides reaching in for fouls. But again, we saw the guy for 15 minutes against a school that none of us even knew had a basketball team of any sort. Sima isn't Bill Russell, but he has a good attitude and he seems to have taken the summer seriously. I think there's a good chance that he'll have a good season.

Quote from: Foad on November 03, 2016, 07:06:44 AM

Quote from: SJUFAN on November 03, 2016, 12:02:02 AM

Defensively he struggles containing guards on the perimeter due to his poor footwork which makes him susceptible to dribble penetration.

As opposed to all those other seven footers who are able to stop point guards 30 feet from the basket. No doubt you'll give us various examples of centers who excel at guarding point guards.

Quote

Defensively, Obekpa was excellent at this btw.

Yes, Chris Obekpa was "excellent" at "containing guards on the perimeter." You're funny.

I don't think of them could or should be trying to guard a point or shooting guard. The thing is, Sima actually tries to. When he should have his hands up to block passes, they are down at his sides reaching in for fouls. But again, we saw the guy for 15 minutes against a school that none of us even knew had a basketball team of any sort. Sima isn't Bill Russell, but he has a good attitude and he seems to have taken the summer seriously. I think there's a good chance that he'll have a good season.

I agree that seven foot centers should not be guarding point guards. Even if what was said about he and Obekpa were true, and it's not, not really, because centers guarding guards on the perimeter is an anomaly that results from a defensive mishap, that that's a very strange metric: this seven footer is not an NBA player because he cannot guard PGs at the perimeter. Wilt Chamberlain and Zelmo Beatty could not guard Daryl Hill 30 feet from the basket and yet they were serviceable NBA players for a number of years. The whole idea is silly.

It is also strange to me that anyone would defend CO, who besides being a one trick pony was something of a sociopath who committed felonies on the court and who if memory serves refused to enter a post season game in a fit of pique. Frankly I am the one who should be praising Obekpa for costing that dope Lavin his job. 

Sima seems to have enormous upside. He's big and agile and is seemingly a solid citizen who hasn't been playing basketball for a very long time. He averaged 7 points, 5 rebounds and 3 blocks as a freshman and is zero games into his sophomore year. Only at Saint John's would he already be termed a failure.

Not one mention of Simas nice second half play which included some solid passes and a great catch and finish for an and-1. Hit the free throw to boot. 5 and 5 with 2 assists in only 15 minutes. Trade him goddammit!

Quote from: Poison on November 03, 2016, 08:24:54 AM

Quote from: Foad on November 03, 2016, 07:06:44 AM

Quote from: SJUFAN on November 03, 2016, 12:02:02 AM

Defensively he struggles containing guards on the perimeter due to his poor footwork which makes him susceptible to dribble penetration.

As opposed to all those other seven footers who are able to stop point guards 30 feet from the basket. No doubt you'll give us various examples of centers who excel at guarding point guards.

Quote

Defensively, Obekpa was excellent at this btw.

Yes, Chris Obekpa was "excellent" at "containing guards on the perimeter." You're funny.

I don't think of them could or should be trying to guard a point or shooting guard. The thing is, Sima actually tries to. When he should have his hands up to block passes, they are down at his sides reaching in for fouls. But again, we saw the guy for 15 minutes against a school that none of us even knew had a basketball team of any sort. Sima isn't Bill Russell, but he has a good attitude and he seems to have taken the summer seriously. I think there's a good chance that he'll have a good season.

I agree that seven foot centers should not be guarding point guards. Even if what was said about he and Obekpa were true, and it's not, not really, because centers guarding guards on the perimeter is an anomaly that results from a defensive mishap, that that's a very strange metric: this seven footer is not an NBA player because he cannot guard PGs at the perimeter. Wilt Chamberlain and Zelmo Beatty could not guard Daryl Hill 30 feet from the basket and yet they were serviceable NBA players for a number of years. The whole idea is silly.

It is also strange to me that anyone would defend CO, who besides being a one trick pony was something of a sociopath who committed felonies on the court and who if memory serves refused to enter a post season game in a fit of pique. Frankly I am the one who should be praising Obekpa for costing that dope Lavin his job. 

Sima seems to have enormous upside. He's big and agile and is seemingly a solid citizen who hasn't been playing basketball for a very long time. He averaged 7 points, 5 rebounds and 3 blocks as a freshman and is zero games into his sophomore year. Only at Saint John's would he already be termed a failure.

Agree totally. Staff apparently finds Sima to be a hard working kid very responsive to coaching. Obekpa, not so much.

Not one mention of Simas nice second half play which included some solid passes and a great catch and finish for an and-1. Hit the free throw to boot. 5 and 5 with 2 assists in only 15 minutes. Trade him goddammit!

+1
Instant gratification too often the theme here.

You guys are funny. Of course he is not expected to "guard" point guards. With respect to his ability to contain the perimeter player on pick in roll situations as compared to his peer's he grades out poor.  Some coaches like to blitz the pick in roll. Its not an anomaly or mishap, its strategy. You may have seen Patrick Ewing do it all the time and then recover to his man during his Knick tenure. He seemed to have no problem containing guards. This is one of many elements that is looked at, not a make or break element, but one that I was asked to expand on. That is what scouts are looking at, among other things. If I was Sima, there is nothing silly about that. The fact that Obekpa was a head case has nothing to do with his ability to move his feet in space. 

I'm only pointing out some elements in Sima's game that needs to improve. It doesn't mean that he doesn't do some things well or that I believe he will not be a good college player for us. He just isn't an NBA player at this time.

I'm only pointing out some elements in Sima's game that needs to improve. It doesn't mean that he doesn't do some things well or that I believe he will not be a good college player for us. He just isn't an NBA player at this time.

But, and I ask this sincerely, its laughable to think Sima is a better player than CO at this point in their careers? On offense I dont think its even close. On defense id give the edge to CO, but Sima has the potential to guard centers and he only blocked 2.5 shots a game as a freshmen.

I like Sima much better than Oblockpa.  At least he hasn't cost us the chance to win our first tourney game in ages to smoke a Phillie.