What We Learned In Atlantis

So now that we have had a chance to get a look at what this team could do against 3 real teams, we know a lot more than we thought we did after the games against Bethune Cookman and Binghamton, after which some posters thought we could move up to 6th in big east this year. So here's what I take away from the Atlantis trip. Some of these just confirmed things that needed to be confirmed against real competition.

- Lovett and Ponds are indeed as good as advertised. These two are studs and will carry this team for as long as they are here. They are both Freshman Guards that will have the ball in their hands a ton so mistakes will happen as they did against experienced teams in Atlantis. That will get better

- None of the returning players have gotten any better from last year. Will dive into individuals down the post, but this is extremely alarming. Player development is probably the second most important thing for college programs to do outside of actually bringing in talent. Villanova won a national championship last year because they are probably the best program in the country in player development. This is now my biggest fear about this program.

- Our bigs have essentially no chance of scoring unless it's an uncontested dunk/layup. Throwing the ball to Sima, Yakwe or Owens for anything else might as well be throwing the ball out of bounds. Whether it is catching it with their back to the basket in the post, along the baseline for a jumper or at the elbow to make a play, they won't do anything good. This means opposing defenses don't have to double down low which often results in open shots. This puts a ton more pressure on the guards to make tough plays and hit contested shots.

- We haven't run an offensive set since Mike Dunlap was here. This hero ball nonsense we run is not going to work in college, especially in the Big East. Mullin and Richmond's NBA backgrounds will probably stop them from implementing an actual offense but they have to realize eventually that this freestyle offense won't cut it in college. Even Matt who is not known for his basketball mind comes from a place where a freestyle type offense was employed and generally worked until they reached the NCAA Tournament where they underachieved every season.

- The interior defense is pretty decent but defensive rebounding is not. I've been generally happy with the defense Sima, Yakwe and Owens have playing down low against drivers, blocking shots and staying straight up to alter shots. Owens does foul at far too high of a rate but I hope this is something that improves as the season goes on. The defensive rebounding has to improve if we want to win 5 big east games this year. We gave up a few offensive rebound off of missed free throws and that is completely unacceptable.

- Malik Ellison is atrocious. Leading up to the season all we heard how much Ellison worked on his game over the summer and how much better he is and if this an improved Malik Ellison then woof. I'd be shocked if he's still here next year. He gives us absolutely nothing when hes on the court and is a huge negative. It's clear he's not a Big East caliber player and I'm really starting to doubt if he'd even be able to contribute in the NEC.

- Darien Williams is useless. Confirmed.

- Freudenberg is not ready yet. The game is too fast for him and he's a liability on defense. This is not a surprise as I don't generally expect Freshman like that to just step on campus and be ready to play so this doesn't worry me. This is a kid that the staff must develop into a very good player, but that's something I do have my doubts about.

- We are not finishing 6th in the BE or making the NIT this year. Aside from DePaul the Big East is really good this year with even Providence exceeding expectations this year (that's what happens when you have a guy that knows how to coach). Our absolute ceiling is 7th place but it's far more likely we finish 9th

So now that we have had a chance to get a look at what this team could do against 3 real teams, we know a lot more than we thought we did after the games against Bethune Cookman and Binghamton, after which some posters thought we could move up to 6th in big east this year. So here's what I take away from the Atlantis trip. Some of these just confirmed things that needed to be confirmed against real competition.

- Lovett and Ponds are indeed as good as advertised. These two are studs and will carry this team for as long as they are here. They are both Freshman Guards that will have the ball in their hands a ton so mistakes will happen as they did against experienced teams in Atlantis. That will get better

- None of the returning players have gotten any better from last year. Will dive into individuals down the post, but this is extremely alarming. Player development is probably the second most important thing for college programs to do outside of actually bringing in talent. Villanova won a national championship last year because they are probably the best program in the country in player development. This is now my biggest fear about this program.

- Our bigs have essentially no chance of scoring unless it's an uncontested dunk/layup. Throwing the ball to Sima, Yakwe or Owens for anything else might as well be throwing the ball out of bounds. Whether it is catching it with their back to the basket in the post, along the baseline for a jumper or at the elbow to make a play, they won't do anything good. This means opposing defenses don't have to double down low which often results in open shots. This puts a ton more pressure on the guards to make tough plays and hit contested shots.

- We haven't run an offensive set since Mike Dunlap was here. This hero ball nonsense we run is not going to work in college, especially in the Big East. Mullin and Richmond's NBA backgrounds will probably stop them from implementing an actual offense but they have to realize eventually that this freestyle offense won't cut it in college. Even Matt who is not known for his basketball mind comes from a place where a freestyle type offense was employed and generally worked until they reached the NCAA Tournament where they underachieved every season.

- The interior defense is pretty decent but defensive rebounding is not. I've been generally happy with the defense Sima, Yakwe and Owens have playing down low against drivers, blocking shots and staying straight up to alter shots. Owens does foul at far too high of a rate but I hope this is something that improves as the season goes on. The defensive rebounding has to improve if we want to win 5 big east games this year. We gave up a few offensive rebound off of missed free throws and that is completely unacceptable.

- Malik Ellison is atrocious. Leading up to the season all we heard how much Ellison worked on his game over the summer and how much better he is and if this an improved Malik Ellison then woof. I'd be shocked if he's still here next year. He gives us absolutely nothing when hes on the court and is a huge negative. It's clear he's not a Big East caliber player and I'm really starting to doubt if he'd even be able to contribute in the NEC.

- Darien Williams is useless. Confirmed.

- Freudenberg is not ready yet. The game is too fast for him and he's a liability on defense. This is not a surprise as I don't generally expect Freshman like that to just step on campus and be ready to play so this doesn't worry me. This is a kid that the staff must develop into a very good player, but that's something I do have my doubts about.

- We are not finishing 6th in the BE or making the NIT this year. Aside from DePaul the Big East is really good this year with even Providence exceeding expectations this year (that's what happens when you have a guy that knows how to coach). Our absolute ceiling is 7th place but it's far more likely we finish 9th

Pretty spot on

Agreed with much of your post.  However, I think Mussini and Sima have progressed a bit.  I thought Yawke would make a bigger jump but the talent is there, so I wouldn't be surprised if it happens.  Definitely thought Ellison would get better and I haven't seen it yet against the better comp.

Agreed with much of your post.  However, I think Mussini and Sima have progressed a bit.  I thought Yawke would make a bigger jump but the talent is there, so I wouldn't be surprised if it happens.  Definitely thought Ellison would get better and I haven't seen it yet against the better comp.

I don't see any improvement in Sima. I do think Mussini is better but not by much and I'm mostly chalking it up to him playing the right position now and not having to play PG. However, a good coach would just have him running off screens all day on offense instead of just standing around the perimeter like he's doing now

Quote from: prjohnnies on November 26, 2016, 04:20:39 PM

Agreed with much of your post.  However, I think Mussini and Sima have progressed a bit.  I thought Yawke would make a bigger jump but the talent is there, so I wouldn't be surprised if it happens.  Definitely thought Ellison would get better and I haven't seen it yet against the better comp.

I don't see any improvement in Sima. I do think Mussini is better but not by much and I'm mostly chalking it up to him playing the right position now and not having to play PG. However, a good coach would just have him running off screens all day on offense instead of just standing around the perimeter like he's doing now

Mussini is better purely because his role has lessened.

While I do agree with about 95% of your Goredman, I will say Lovett should be lumped in with returning players as should Owens.  The extra year of prep has helped them tremendously.  Don't need to speak about Lovett as much, because he is clearly our best player, but he has a ways to go before he becomes a floor general.  However a lot of what he has to do is because the bigs can't do what they are supposed to do.  Owens has been a nice surprise.  He is never going to be a banger, but until Sima and Yawke develop he is going to have to play a more physical game, which he is not equipped to do. 

The coaching staff has a lot to be desired, but its only 5 games into the season with a roster that resembles a big east team.  We have played pretty well, but don't know how to close.  Lets see how this staff adjusts, now that we have a few games under our belt that came down to the wire.

Ellison will be the odd man out for sure at this pace.  Mussini is playing the way I expected.  Hit some threes and be able to give 12-15 minutes.  It all goes back to the big guys.  Once they develop, lovett and mussini will look even better.

Agree with most of this. The biggest takeaways I have (and agree with you) are player development and in-game coaching (no offensive sets and no ball movement).

We saw the lack of player development of a highly rated recruiting class under Lavin. It was painful to see how slow the development was made by that group due to a lack of coaching. It's very concerning that the same could happen with this group.

The in-game coaching is obvious. There is no offensive game plan whatsoever and barely any adjustments being made in game. Not to mention the defensive issues.

Yes it's very early in the season and I want to give this group until Jan or Feb to see how much they progress, if at all. However the coaching isn't just going to progress. That system should be implemented way before the season and the system they currently use is not effective at all.

While I do agree with about 95% of your Goredman, I will say Lovett should be lumped in with returning players as should Owens.  The extra year of prep has helped them tremendously.  Don't need to speak about Lovett as much, because he is clearly our best player, but he has a ways to go before he becomes a floor general.  However a lot of what he has to do is because the bigs can't do what they are supposed to do.  Owens has been a nice surprise.  He is never going to be a banger, but until Sima and Yawke develop he is going to have to play a more physical game, which he is not equipped to do. 

The coaching staff has a lot to be desired, but its only 5 games into the season with a roster that resembles a big east team.  We have played pretty well, but don't know how to close.  Lets see how this staff adjusts, now that we have a few games under our belt that came down to the wire.

Ellison will be the odd man out for sure at this pace.  Mussini is playing the way I expected.  Hit some threes and be able to give 12-15 minutes.  It all goes back to the big guys.  Once they develop, lovett and mussini will look even better.

Perhaps you are right that Lovett and Owens were benefitted by practicing all year last year, but having not seen either of them play a college game prior to this season, it's impossible for me to know if they actually have improved. I do agree that Owens has been a pleasant surprise thus far but in a perfect world he'd still be our 3rd best big giving us a solid 15 mins per game, but as it stands right now there is not much separation between the 3 bigs we have

Guess I'm the only person thinking we are making a determination on Ellison a little early. I actually thought he was part of our best lineup yesterday with Lovett, Ponds, Bash and Yakwe. He started real slow last year, let's give him a few more weeks. I still think he moves well with the ball and deserves credit for trying to run some plays yesterday.

Pretty much agree with everything said. There has been no development of returning players and have seen little evidence of coaching in the offense or defense. I think Bash has been a disappointment based on all the hype. He shoots too much, is out of control on most of his drives and does not seem to have a good handle.

We need to slow down. Lovett and Ponds are playing at a gear that's too fast for the rest of the guys.   

Guess I'm the only person thinking we are making a determination on Ellison a little early. I actually thought he was part of our best lineup yesterday with Lovett, Ponds, Bash and Yakwe. He started real slow last year, let's give him a few more weeks. I still think he moves well with the ball and deserves credit for trying to run some plays yesterday.

If anyone is saying that he's not good enough to be here and that he should transfer, then yes, it's way too soon to write a kid off 6 games into his sophomore season. My biggest concern is that our sophomores, for the most part, are playing like freshman projects. Our coaches were handicapped last year, but at this point, I expected to see some assemblance of a system for offense and defense, and there is none.

It's early. Guys are still adjusting to each other and their roles. This will take some time and unfortunately the process is usually ugly.

Ellison is my guy and still think he can be very good but he's played poor. The turnovers are the most brutal. It's just lack of concentration most times. The 0-5 against Minnesota and 0-6 against VCU stand out. It's easy to jump off the bandwagon but patience. 6'6 guards with point guard skills don't grow on trees.

I'm not a big Sima fan but think he's the best big. He has a presence with his back to the basket and poses a threat of scoring the basketball. I can't say the same for Yakwe or Owens who have less of a chance scoring the dribble contest kids during timeouts. Mullin needs to figure out a way to play 1 big, Bash, 3 guards. Sima + Yakwe or Owens + Yakwe is just crippling the team offensively and transitionally on defense.

Yakwe has 5 offensive rebounds all season. Both Bash and Ponds have double that amount. Amar has same in 20% of the minutes played. I love what the kid brings defensively but he needs to play with better motor.

Overall the guys need to do a better job of moving without the basketball. Too much 1 on 5 and simply relying on pick and roll with bigs who have no business being beyond the FT line. If we are gonna run pick and roll at least do it with RF or AA who can pick and pop.

Guess I'm the only person thinking we are making a determination on Ellison a little early. I actually thought he was part of our best lineup yesterday with Lovett, Ponds, Bash and Yakwe. He started real slow last year, let's give him a few more weeks. I still think he moves well with the ball and deserves credit for trying to run some plays yesterday.

I was hoping for improvement as he did improve, albeit marginally, last year. However, he remains oblivious on the court and I believe, to a degree, is hampered by the expectations that come with being the son of a former college BB star and #1 draft pick. At times, I think he feels like he should be taking over the game and you can absolutely tell that he is going to force a drive or take an ill advised jumper. Unfortunately, he should not be taking over games at any stage and should solely be a role player who lets things come to him.

Honestly, we always compare Sima and Obekpa, but isn't the better comparison really Yakwe and Obekpa?  Personally, I'm sick of these super athletic big guys from Our Savior.  They are all the same.  No offensive game, love blocking shots, crappy rebounders and crazy athletic.  What good is athleticism if you have no clue how to use it.  For such great athletes they never can guard anyone 1 on 1.  I know we have the kid committed from 2018 and I've never seen him play so I shouldn't judge but to me these guys aren't winning types of players. 

They are all the same.  No offensive game, love blocking shots, crappy rebounders and crazy athletic.  What good is athleticism if you have no clue how to use it.  For such great athletes they never can guard anyone 1 on 1.

To finish the description: raw, but with potential.

Article from Zach / NY Post - 3 takeaways

http://nypost.com/2016/11/26/3-st-johns-takeaways-what-happened-to-their-big-men/

Very good post goredmen. Ellison is atrocious and needs to sit. I agree that Freudenberg has been playing tentative, but I would still like to see him get all of Ellison's minutes. He has a better understanding of the game now than Ellison will ever have. Also he is one of the few players who is not always looking for his own shot. He plays team basketball, moves the basketball well, and rarely tries to go one on one. He is being asked to play out of position at the 4. He does not have the strength to defend that position. He should be backing up Ahmed at the 3.

Very good post goredmen. Ellison is atrocious and needs to sit. I agree that Freudenberg has been playing tentative, but I would still like to see him get all of Ellison's minutes. He has a better understanding of the game now than Ellison will ever have. Also he is one of the few players who is not always looking for his own shot. He plays team basketball, moves the basketball well, and rarely tries to go one on one. He is being asked to play out of position at the 4. He does not have the strength to defend that position. He should be backing up Ahmed at the 3.

FYI Ellison is 2nd most efficient passer on the team (assists per minute). I think if Ellison made 5 more shots people would be asking for him to play more.

To reiterate I think he's played poorly over the first 6 games but I think it's entirely too early to make judgements on any of the guys.

Not a huge Ellison fan. But he is a big east body. I am sure the Italian will go off vs deleware state. But we don't play in the SWAC.