Seton Hall - Player of the Game

I have followed St. John's basketball for 52 years and based upon minutes played Ellison is the worst SJU player I can remember. I am a Chris Mullin admirer, but i think Pervis must have pictures Chris does not want published. I have never rooted for a player to get in foul trouble, but when Ellison fouls early in the game I cheer. The quicker to the bench the better.

I have followed St. John's basketball for 52 years and based upon minutes played Ellison is the worst SJU player I can remember. I am a Chris Mullin admirer, but i think Pervis must have pictures Chris does not want published. I have never rooted for a player to get in foul trouble, but when Ellison fouls early in the game I cheer. The quicker to the bench the better.

The worst player you can remember? He is better than half the people on this team alone. He is better than almost anyone on those mid 2000s Norm teams. People here are so reactionary. Ellison is still only a Sophomore. He will be a vital bench piece in the next two years or maybe he will hit a big stride like Dwight Hardy. For what it is worth, Ellison has a 54.4 TS%, which puts him at 24th in the BE. Ahead of players like Bullock, Cheatham, Billly Garrett, Kelan Martin. Desi Rodriguez, and Bashir Ahmed. Such an absurd claim.

I have followed St. John's basketball for 52 years and based upon minutes played Ellison is the worst SJU player I can remember.

Are you serious?

Your statistics are meaningless. He is lost on defense. How do you think he gets all those fouls? He is often out of position and plays defense with his arms. He lacks aggressiveness and the next 50/50 ball he gets will be his first. But his most egregious offense is that as the son of a excellent basketball player he has no basketball awareness when he is on the court. Also he is not a clutch player. His screw ups usually come at key points in the game, and his points come when the game has already been decided.

Your statistics are meaningless. He is lost on defense. How do you think he gets all those fouls? He is often out of position and plays defense with his arms. He lacks aggressiveness and the next 50/50 ball he gets will be his first. But his most egregious offense is that as the son of a excellent basketball player he has no basketball awareness when he is on the court. Also he is not a clutch player. His screw ups usually come at key points in the game, and his points come when the game has already been decided.

Ahh I see you clearly missed the DePaul game earlier this year. Also, we normally ask him to guard one of their best players so I do not fault him for his defensive efforts. There are games where he is in quick foul trouble, but there are games when he locks down their players too. He is only a Sophomore and he is not his ceiling yet. Give it time.

I have followed St. John's basketball for 52 years and based upon minutes played Ellison is the worst SJU player I can remember. I am a Chris Mullin admirer, but i think Pervis must have pictures Chris does not want published. I have never rooted for a player to get in foul trouble, but when Ellison fouls early in the game I cheer. The quicker to the bench the better.

The worst starter in 52 years? Really? He's not even the worst starter on this team. That would clearly be Yalwe. Ellison has plenty to learn. For starters, he's not a guard. He can't play d without fouling. He rarely if ever boxes out. He is lazy and careless with his passes. He thinks he's point guard, and clearly he's not, and he doesn't make free throws.

That said, he's a good 3 point shooter, he can be a good passer in the half court as kind of a point forward, and it should be noted that when he arrived on campus, it looked as though he had never dribbled a basketball before. Improvement is there. Not DJ Kennedy level improvement, but he's getting better. Give the kid a break.

I saw the DePaul game and that does nothing to change my opinion, as that was one game out of 26 this year. My hope is that he sees less court time for the remainder of the season. I am also hoping that Clark and Simon are as good as advertised and will take Ellison's minutes away from him next year.

The difference in opinion is what keeps us all coming back.

I see a lot of players and basketball for a living. Certainly doesn't make my opinion any more valuable than anyone else but I do have perspective to compare. Ellison is still developing but the physical tools he has is something I value (as do many coaches) and he's much better than some of you give credit. The grass isn't so green elsewhere.

I think it's easy to point out short comings or missed plays for the team you root for because you're watching with a microscope. You remember the 1 wrong vs the 5 right.

This team is 12-14 but they are a lot better than that. If St. John's had to replay the season I think they'd be 16-10 and the narrative changes so much.

Compare Ellison to 3rd or 4th guard on Big East rosters and I'd probably take him over just about everyone.

The difference in opinion is what keeps us all coming back.

I see a lot of players and basketball for a living. Certainly doesn't make my opinion any more valuable than anyone else but I do have perspective to compare. Ellison is still developing but the physical tools he has is something I value (as do many coaches) and he's much better than some of you give credit. The grass isn't so green elsewhere.

I think it's easy to point out short comings or missed plays for the team you root for because you're watching with a microscope. You remember the 1 wrong vs the 5 right.

This team is 12-14 but they are a lot better than that. If St. John's had to replay the season I think they'd be 16-10 and the narrative changes so much.

Compare Ellison to 3rd or 4th guard on Big East rosters and I'd probably take him over just about everyone.

I agree completely.  Also, on the 12-14 versus 16-10 comment, the main difference in my mind is that the coaching staff - Mullin and St Jean specifically - is growing.  They are gaining the experience needed to properly adjust things at the half and to put the right rotations together.  This has really been evident over the past 4 weeks. 

Given this development, if Richmond is headed out the door as Baldi implied fairly recently, then I would hope that the replacement is a big man coach who can also be a companion recruiter to Matt A.

Poison and others who may also have a problem with reading comprehension, I said in my original post "based upon minutes played Ellison is the worst SJU player I can remember'. He plays more minutes than Yawke thus i am not comparing him to Yawke. Ellison is a starter who plays starter minutes. I am comparing him to all other SJU starters over the years who played comparable minutes (25 or more per game).

Poison and others who may also have a problem with reading comprehension, I said in my original post "based upon minutes played Ellison is the worst SJU player I can remember'. He plays more minutes than Yawke thus i am not comparing him to Yawke. Ellison is a starter who plays starter minutes. I am comparing him to all other SJU starters over the years who played comparable minutes (25 or more per game).

Eugene Lawrence.  Dexter Gray.  Phil Missere.  Cedric Jackson. All of those are guys who started and played 25+ minutes on average during one season or more at SJU.  I would take Ellison over any of them, during those seasons (I am not talking about the Cleveland State iteration of Cedric Jackson) in a heartbeat.

Poison and others who may also have a problem with reading comprehension, I said in my original post "based upon minutes played Ellison is the worst SJU player I can remember'. He plays more minutes than Yawke thus i am not comparing him to Yawke. Ellison is a starter who plays starter minutes. I am comparing him to all other SJU starters over the years who played comparable minutes (25 or more per game).

You must have a short memory.

I hear a lot of people shit on Ellison at the Garden recently. I'm one of those people who think he can be good and has potential but there is a growing sentiment from fans at games in Sec 120 who do not like him at all.

I like Ellison. I see him being a great role player for us for the next couple years. His improvement from last season (where he quite honestly looked like he didn't belong in Div. 1), to this year has been impressive.

Cedric Jackson and Phil Missere never averaged 25 minutes per game, But just on hustle and desire I would take both of them over Ellison. I would also take both Eugene Lawrence and Dexter Gray over Ellison in a NY minute. For those awaiting great things from Ellison down the road, he will never be the player that Cedric Jackson became.

By the way, my memory is better than most.

Cedric Jackson and Phil Missere never averaged 25 minutes per game, But just on hustle and desire I would take both of them over Ellison. I would also take both Eugene Lawrence and Dexter Gray over Ellison in a NY minute. For those awaiting great things from Ellison down the road, he will never be the player that Cedric Jackson became.

By the way, my memory is better than most.

Ellison already averages better than Eugene Lawrence and Ced Jackson & Dexter Gray (during their time at SJU). Phil plays a completely different position.

I don't think there is any convincing as you seem pretty stuck in your opinion. While I feel strongly about mine too I'd be willing to change it if there was compelling evidence otherwise.

Quote from: longtimefan on February 13, 2017, 02:52:10 PM

Cedric Jackson and Phil Missere never averaged 25 minutes per game, But just on hustle and desire I would take both of them over Ellison. I would also take both Eugene Lawrence and Dexter Gray over Ellison in a NY minute. For those awaiting great things from Ellison down the road, he will never be the player that Cedric Jackson became.

By the way, my memory is better than most.

Ellison already averages better than Eugene Lawrence and Ced Jackson & Dexter Gray (during their time at SJU). Phil plays a completely different position.

I don't think there is any convincing as you seem pretty stuck in your opinion. While I feel strongly about mine too I'd be willing to change it if there was compelling evidence otherwise.

Dexter Gray over Ellison? No way. I'm a Malik fan, although he needs to get his head together and bring it EVERY game. Skill wise Dexter not even close.

Ellison already averages better than Eugene Lawrence

Not really. Except for slightly better shooting percentage Geno had better numbers both F and SO years.

GL: 7.3 / 3.7 reb / 3.9 ast / 1.7 stl / 39% 2 / 28 % 3 / 68 FT
ME: 7.3 / 2.5 reb / 2.6 ast / .04 stl / 37% / 32 % 3 / 65 FT


GL: 9.3  / 4.8 / 4.9 / 1.6 stl / 36 / 28 / 69
ME: 7.9 / 3 / 2.8 / 1 stl / 45 / 40 / 56
 
Geno was also a much better defender.

Dexter Gray average 11+ points and 5 rebounds one year. Not sure if that was his best year or not. But it is better than anything Ellison has shown.

Dexter Gray average 11+ points and 5 rebounds one year. Not sure if that was his best year or not. But it is better than anything Ellison has shown.

That was at Iona. Six and five as a FR at SJ.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/dexter-gray-1.html

That said I'd trade Ellison for Gray and throw in some cash.