Seton Hall - Player of the Game

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Poison

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2017, 11:02:59 AM »
Owens. Kid gets better every game.
Its not an accident. He works his tail off. If we don't loose anyone , I think Owens w another 20 pounds and Clark, Bash and Yakwe. , we will look much better next year w our inside game. A grad transfer will would also improve things.

Yakwe and Bash have no inside game. Bash belongs at the 3. You're not a 4 if you can't play with your back to the basket. I think we are expecting way too much from Clark. He barely contributed at Michigan State. Owens is the only one I see who is working hard all the time. His game keeps getting better.

Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2017, 03:55:48 PM »
Owens all day. His energy and effort was infectious on both ends
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Foad

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2017, 05:25:03 PM »
Owens. Kid gets better every game.
Its not an accident. He works his tail off. If we don't loose anyone , I think Owens w another 20 pounds and Clark, Bash and Yakwe. , we will look much better next year w our inside game. A grad transfer will would also improve things.

Yakwe and Bash have no inside game. Bash belongs at the 3. You're not a 4 if you can't play with your back to the basket. I think we are expecting way too much from Clark. He barely contributed at Michigan State. Owens is the only one I see who is working hard all the time. His game keeps getting better.

I said the same thing a couple of weeks ago. Bench Ellison, start Owens at the five and slide the other two down one. BA is a natural three who's big and aggressive enough to create match up problems and that moves Yakwe to a more natural position - he doesn't really have a position but as the kids say it is what it is. Who cares if Owens fouls out in the first 20 minutes or the middle 20 minutes or the last 20. He has a tremendous upside. Whereas Ellison doesn't really bring anything to the table other than he's a big guard but when he plays he's essentially an undersized three anyway.

Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2017, 05:38:34 PM »
Owens. Kid gets better every game.
Its not an accident. He works his tail off. If we don't loose anyone , I think Owens w another 20 pounds and Clark, Bash and Yakwe. , we will look much better next year w our inside game. A grad transfer will would also improve things.

Yakwe and Bash have no inside game. Bash belongs at the 3. You're not a 4 if you can't play with your back to the basket. I think we are expecting way too much from Clark. He barely contributed at Michigan State. Owens is the only one I see who is working hard all the time. His game keeps getting better.

I said the same thing a couple of weeks ago. Bench Ellison, start Owens at the five and slide the other two down one. BA is a natural three who's big and aggressive enough to create match up problems and that moves Yakwe to a more natural position - he doesn't really have a position but as the kids say it is what it is. Who cares if Owens fouls out in the first 20 minutes or the middle 20 minutes or the last 20. He has a tremendous upside. Whereas Ellison doesn't really bring anything to the table other than he's a big guard but when he plays he's essentially an undersized three anyway.

This lineup makes it very easy for opposing to teams to cheat St. John's defensively. Ellison balances other 2 guards and Bash is a matchup problem for opposing 4's.
Follow Johnny Jungle on Twitter at @Johnny_Jungle

Foad

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2017, 06:23:33 PM »
Owens. Kid gets better every game.
Its not an accident. He works his tail off. If we don't loose anyone , I think Owens w another 20 pounds and Clark, Bash and Yakwe. , we will look much better next year w our inside game. A grad transfer will would also improve things.

Yakwe and Bash have no inside game. Bash belongs at the 3. You're not a 4 if you can't play with your back to the basket. I think we are expecting way too much from Clark. He barely contributed at Michigan State. Owens is the only one I see who is working hard all the time. His game keeps getting better.

I said the same thing a couple of weeks ago. Bench Ellison, start Owens at the five and slide the other two down one. BA is a natural three who's big and aggressive enough to create match up problems and that moves Yakwe to a more natural position - he doesn't really have a position but as the kids say it is what it is. Who cares if Owens fouls out in the first 20 minutes or the middle 20 minutes or the last 20. He has a tremendous upside. Whereas Ellison doesn't really bring anything to the table other than he's a big guard but when he plays he's essentially an undersized three anyway.

This lineup makes it very easy for opposing to teams to cheat St. John's defensively. Ellison balances other 2 guards and Bash is a matchup problem for opposing 4's.

Ellison might have nodded to you in the tunnel a couple of times, but he's awful. On a good team he wouldn't see the floor. I hope he gets better and I think he will as an upperclassman but he has a lot to overcome, being dead from the neck up.

desco80

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2017, 06:28:54 PM »
Ellison occasionally makes a nice 3 or has a strong drive to the basket.

But any positive he creates is far outweighed by the number of times he steps on the baseline, throws a pass into the second row, or makes a dumb foul. 

His skills aren't nonexistent, but the mental errors should relegate him to the bench next season when we have Simon available.

Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2017, 06:54:52 PM »
Other than the obvious faux pas of not starting Love it, coach is doing an excellent job of playing his best players righteous minutes while also mixing in the bench appropriately.

Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2017, 07:30:31 PM »
No doubt it was Owens.
We need him to beast on the boards every games.

derk

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2017, 08:48:22 PM »
Quote from: derklink=topic=10394.msg269877#msg269877
date=1486858515

Ha. Thought you were an oldtimer like me. 6'4 jumping jack small forward who played in the early - mid 70 's. All star drafted by the Knicks . Think Mel Davis Billy Schaefer era if I remember correctly.
BTW, Ty Grant, Beaver Smith, and Boubacar Diakite at the game today

Who is Beaver Smith?

Poison

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2017, 09:14:50 PM »
Owens. Kid gets better every game.
Its not an accident. He works his tail off. If we don't loose anyone , I think Owens w another 20 pounds and Clark, Bash and Yakwe. , we will look much better next year w our inside game. A grad transfer will would also improve things.

Yakwe and Bash have no inside game. Bash belongs at the 3. You're not a 4 if you can't play with your back to the basket. I think we are expecting way too much from Clark. He barely contributed at Michigan State. Owens is the only one I see who is working hard all the time. His game keeps getting better.

I said the same thing a couple of weeks ago. Bench Ellison, start Owens at the five and slide the other two down one. BA is a natural three who's big and aggressive enough to create match up problems and that moves Yakwe to a more natural position - he doesn't really have a position but as the kids say it is what it is. Who cares if Owens fouls out in the first 20 minutes or the middle 20 minutes or the last 20. He has a tremendous upside. Whereas Ellison doesn't really bring anything to the table other than he's a big guard but when he plays he's essentially an undersized three anyway.

This lineup makes it very easy for opposing to teams to cheat St. John's defensively. Ellison balances other 2 guards and Bash is a matchup problem for opposing 4's.

We just played our best team ball of the season without Ellison. I don't want Ellison to be benched. I think he's made strides this year, but he hasn't learned to play d without fouling, he's. careless with the ball and he doesn't think that's a problem judging by the amount of time he brings the ball the up.

It ain't gonna be perfect this year. Bashir Ahmed usually looks like sophomore year Felipe Lopez. His ball hogging didn't cost us the game, but the guy is different than the rest of the team in that he is looking for his, and not the other 4 guys. Hopefully, he learned something from yesterday's game.

Poison

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2017, 09:17:27 PM »
Quote from: derklink=topic=10394.msg269877#msg269877
date=1486858515

Ha. Thought you were an oldtimer like me. 6'4 jumping jack small forward who played in the early - mid 70 's. All star drafted by the Knicks . Think Mel Davis Billy Schaefer era if I remember correctly.
BTW, Ty Grant, Beaver Smith, and Boubacar Diakite at the game today

Who is Beaver Smith?

Thanks. You know, I'm sure Amar Alibegovic has heard it since he's been here, but someone should tell him the story of Mohammed Diakite, a player who was a shit ton worse than him.

Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2017, 09:33:03 PM »
Owens. Kid gets better every game.
Its not an accident. He works his tail off. If we don't loose anyone , I think Owens w another 20 pounds and Clark, Bash and Yakwe. , we will look much better next year w our inside game. A grad transfer will would also improve things.

Yakwe and Bash have no inside game. Bash belongs at the 3. You're not a 4 if you can't play with your back to the basket. I think we are expecting way too much from Clark. He barely contributed at Michigan State. Owens is the only one I see who is working hard all the time. His game keeps getting better.

I said the same thing a couple of weeks ago. Bench Ellison, start Owens at the five and slide the other two down one. BA is a natural three who's big and aggressive enough to create match up problems and that moves Yakwe to a more natural position - he doesn't really have a position but as the kids say it is what it is. Who cares if Owens fouls out in the first 20 minutes or the middle 20 minutes or the last 20. He has a tremendous upside. Whereas Ellison doesn't really bring anything to the table other than he's a big guard but when he plays he's essentially an undersized three anyway.

This lineup makes it very easy for opposing to teams to cheat St. John's defensively. Ellison balances other 2 guards and Bash is a matchup problem for opposing 4's.

Ellison might have nodded to you in the tunnel a couple of times, but he's awful. On a good team he wouldn't see the floor. I hope he gets better and I think he will as an upperclassman but he has a lot to overcome, being dead from the neck up.

Here we go. 1 bad game and 'he sucks' movement starts again.

Does he make some scratch your head plays? Sure but he can also do things other guards in conference can't. At 6'6 and 3rd-4th guard on this team that's a tremendous asset. Again only a sophomore.

Has been a big part of a few conference wins. Notably DePaul 2x, Marquette, and Providence
Follow Johnny Jungle on Twitter at @Johnny_Jungle

Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2017, 09:51:53 PM »
I'm with Dave.  He has his bad moments but has played well at times too and been a key contributor.  I think Mullin should do what he's been doing.  When a matchup or performance dictates the smaller lineup, go that route.  When it doesn't, play some of the bigger kids together and have either Ahmed or Ellison at the 3.

Also I don't think Ahmed is a selfish player.  I think he plays out of control at times trying to force the offense, especially when we need points, and that he is still adjusting to playing against bigger, stronger and quicker players.  There is a difference.  The kid knows we need him to score, among other things, and so he forces the issue at times.

Foad

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2017, 10:25:22 PM »
Owens. Kid gets better every game.
Its not an accident. He works his tail off. If we don't loose anyone , I think Owens w another 20 pounds and Clark, Bash and Yakwe. , we will look much better next year w our inside game. A grad transfer will would also improve things.

Yakwe and Bash have no inside game. Bash belongs at the 3. You're not a 4 if you can't play with your back to the basket. I think we are expecting way too much from Clark. He barely contributed at Michigan State. Owens is the only one I see who is working hard all the time. His game keeps getting better.

I said the same thing a couple of weeks ago. Bench Ellison, start Owens at the five and slide the other two down one. BA is a natural three who's big and aggressive enough to create match up problems and that moves Yakwe to a more natural position - he doesn't really have a position but as the kids say it is what it is. Who cares if Owens fouls out in the first 20 minutes or the middle 20 minutes or the last 20. He has a tremendous upside. Whereas Ellison doesn't really bring anything to the table other than he's a big guard but when he plays he's essentially an undersized three anyway.

This lineup makes it very easy for opposing to teams to cheat St. John's defensively. Ellison balances other 2 guards and Bash is a matchup problem for opposing 4's.

Ellison might have nodded to you in the tunnel a couple of times, but he's awful. On a good team he wouldn't see the floor. I hope he gets better and I think he will as an upperclassman but he has a lot to overcome, being dead from the neck up.

Here we go. 1 bad game and 'he sucks' movement starts again.

Does he make some scratch your head plays? Sure but he can also do things other guards in conference can't. At 6'6 and 3rd-4th guard on this team that's a tremendous asset. Again only a sophomore.

Has been a big part of a few conference wins. Notably DePaul 2x, Marquette, and Providence

I didn't say he sucks, I said he was awful. There's a difference. That is, he's not irredeemable, he's just not presently much of a basketball player.

In three games he shot 21 of 33 from the floor. The rest of the time he's 50 for 139, that's 38 percent. 38 percent doesn't pose match up problems for anyone. If I were the other guy I'd let him shoot all day. Because two third of the time he misses and every shot he takes is a shot one of the other guys - who might make one - aren't taking.

Yes, he has size that the other guards don't have. But for his size he's a bad rebounder and an atrocious defender. He gets to the basket well but doesn't finish and is an awful free throw shooter. He's an adequate passer, but if he were passing to himself - which the other guys have to do, pass to him - he'd have fewer assists. He's also one of the dumber players I've seen in quite a while. He thinks he's the man, whereas at best he'd be a piece. Once a game he throws a lazy half court pass that leads to a lay up on the other end. He doesn't even know how big the court is, which is why once a game he catches the ball out of bounds. Yes, he's a sophomore, but on a real team he wouldn't have seen the floor as a freshman or a sophomore. That's what so maddening about the lack of personnel continuity. He plays because there's no one else who can. I don't blame him for what he is but let's not pretend that what he is is anything more than what he is.

Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2017, 11:56:06 PM »
Owens. Kid gets better every game.
Its not an accident. He works his tail off. If we don't loose anyone , I think Owens w another 20 pounds and Clark, Bash and Yakwe. , we will look much better next year w our inside game. A grad transfer will would also improve things.

Yakwe and Bash have no inside game. Bash belongs at the 3. You're not a 4 if you can't play with your back to the basket. I think we are expecting way too much from Clark. He barely contributed at Michigan State. Owens is the only one I see who is working hard all the time. His game keeps getting better.

I said the same thing a couple of weeks ago. Bench Ellison, start Owens at the five and slide the other two down one. BA is a natural three who's big and aggressive enough to create match up problems and that moves Yakwe to a more natural position - he doesn't really have a position but as the kids say it is what it is. Who cares if Owens fouls out in the first 20 minutes or the middle 20 minutes or the last 20. He has a tremendous upside. Whereas Ellison doesn't really bring anything to the table other than he's a big guard but when he plays he's essentially an undersized three anyway.

This lineup makes it very easy for opposing to teams to cheat St. John's defensively. Ellison balances other 2 guards and Bash is a matchup problem for opposing 4's.

Ellison might have nodded to you in the tunnel a couple of times, but he's awful. On a good team he wouldn't see the floor. I hope he gets better and I think he will as an upperclassman but he has a lot to overcome, being dead from the neck up.

Here we go. 1 bad game and 'he sucks' movement starts again.

Does he make some scratch your head plays? Sure but he can also do things other guards in conference can't. At 6'6 and 3rd-4th guard on this team that's a tremendous asset. Again only a sophomore.

Has been a big part of a few conference wins. Notably DePaul 2x, Marquette, and Providence

I didn't say he sucks, I said he was awful. There's a difference. That is, he's not irredeemable, he's just not presently much of a basketball player.

In three games he shot 21 of 33 from the floor. The rest of the time he's 50 for 139, that's 38 percent. 38 percent doesn't pose match up problems for anyone. If I were the other guy I'd let him shoot all day. Because two third of the time he misses and every shot he takes is a shot one of the other guys - who might make one - aren't taking.

Yes, he has size that the other guards don't have. But for his size he's a bad rebounder and an atrocious defender. He gets to the basket well but doesn't finish and is an awful free throw shooter. He's an adequate passer, but if he were passing to himself - which the other guys have to do, pass to him - he'd have fewer assists. He's also one of the dumber players I've seen in quite a while. He thinks he's the man, whereas at best he'd be a piece. Once a game he throws a lazy half court pass that leads to a lay up on the other end. He doesn't even know how big the court is, which is why once a game he catches the ball out of bounds. Yes, he's a sophomore, but on a real team he wouldn't have seen the floor as a freshman or a sophomore. That's what so maddening about the lack of personnel continuity. He plays because there's no one else who can. I don't blame him for what he is but let's not pretend that what he is is anything more than what he is.

While I value stats and data they don't tell all.

You might value shooting % and as do I but this doesn't tell you whether shots are off catch, bounce, contested, etc. Even so I'll bite and say that Ellison's % are up 78% from last year (82% from 3) and he's shooting similar or better than his peers: Carrington, Powell, Hauser, Reinhardt, DiVincenzo, McDermott, Savage, Macura, Goodin, Gage, Wood, Cyrus.

With all this said if Ellison made 1 shot a game he missed then he'd be shooting 60% instead of 45%. All of a sudden he'd be best % for a guard in college basketball.

In more mins a game this year he's shooting better, rebounding better, defending better, and turning the ball over less. I'll take that progression from Frosh to Soph. I'll stick to my guns on this one and say he's a pretty good player with very good potential. Tremendous get for a spring signee too.
Follow Johnny Jungle on Twitter at @Johnny_Jungle

Marillac

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2017, 07:45:17 AM »
Owens. Kid gets better every game.
Its not an accident. He works his tail off. If we don't loose anyone , I think Owens w another 20 pounds and Clark, Bash and Yakwe. , we will look much better next year w our inside game. A grad transfer will would also improve things.

Yakwe and Bash have no inside game. Bash belongs at the 3. You're not a 4 if you can't play with your back to the basket. I think we are expecting way too much from Clark. He barely contributed at Michigan State. Owens is the only one I see who is working hard all the time. His game keeps getting better.

I said the same thing a couple of weeks ago. Bench Ellison, start Owens at the five and slide the other two down one. BA is a natural three who's big and aggressive enough to create match up problems and that moves Yakwe to a more natural position - he doesn't really have a position but as the kids say it is what it is. Who cares if Owens fouls out in the first 20 minutes or the middle 20 minutes or the last 20. He has a tremendous upside. Whereas Ellison doesn't really bring anything to the table other than he's a big guard but when he plays he's essentially an undersized three anyway.

This lineup makes it very easy for opposing to teams to cheat St. John's defensively. Ellison balances other 2 guards and Bash is a matchup problem for opposing 4's.

Ellison might have nodded to you in the tunnel a couple of times, but he's awful. On a good team he wouldn't see the floor. I hope he gets better and I think he will as an upperclassman but he has a lot to overcome, being dead from the neck up.

Here we go. 1 bad game and 'he sucks' movement starts again.

Does he make some scratch your head plays? Sure but he can also do things other guards in conference can't. At 6'6 and 3rd-4th guard on this team that's a tremendous asset. Again only a sophomore.

Has been a big part of a few conference wins. Notably DePaul 2x, Marquette, and Providence

I didn't say he sucks, I said he was awful. There's a difference. That is, he's not irredeemable, he's just not presently much of a basketball player.

In three games he shot 21 of 33 from the floor. The rest of the time he's 50 for 139, that's 38 percent. 38 percent doesn't pose match up problems for anyone. If I were the other guy I'd let him shoot all day. Because two third of the time he misses and every shot he takes is a shot one of the other guys - who might make one - aren't taking.

Yes, he has size that the other guards don't have. But for his size he's a bad rebounder and an atrocious defender. He gets to the basket well but doesn't finish and is an awful free throw shooter. He's an adequate passer, but if he were passing to himself - which the other guys have to do, pass to him - he'd have fewer assists. He's also one of the dumber players I've seen in quite a while. He thinks he's the man, whereas at best he'd be a piece. Once a game he throws a lazy half court pass that leads to a lay up on the other end. He doesn't even know how big the court is, which is why once a game he catches the ball out of bounds. Yes, he's a sophomore, but on a real team he wouldn't have seen the floor as a freshman or a sophomore. That's what so maddening about the lack of personnel continuity. He plays because there's no one else who can. I don't blame him for what he is but let's not pretend that what he is is anything more than what he is.

While I value stats and data they don't tell all.

You might value shooting % and as do I but this doesn't tell you whether shots are off catch, bounce, contested, etc. Even so I'll bite and say that Ellison's % are up 78% from last year (82% from 3) and he's shooting similar or better than his peers: Carrington, Powell, Hauser, Reinhardt, DiVincenzo, McDermott, Savage, Macura, Goodin, Gage, Wood, Cyrus.

With all this said if Ellison made 1 shot a game he missed then he'd be shooting 60% instead of 45%. All of a sudden he'd be best % for a guard in college basketball.

In more mins a game this year he's shooting better, rebounding better, defending better, and turning the ball over less. I'll take that progression from Frosh to Soph. I'll stick to my guns on this one and say he's a pretty good player with very good potential. Tremendous get for a spring signee too.

On a decent team, he wouldn't be playing. He has great guard skills for his size, but his awarenesss and decision-making, even compared to a true frosh like Ponds, are alarmingly bad.  I don't see the defense and rebounding that you do. He goes under every screen and he can't stop anyone's dribble. He does do a good job against bigger wings that like to settle for jumpers....I'll give him that. I think it is very possible he can develop into a solid upperclassman, but it seems like our best lineups are squeezing him out.

paultzman

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2017, 07:47:02 AM »
Owens. Kid gets better every game.
Its not an accident. He works his tail off. If we don't loose anyone , I think Owens w another 20 pounds and Clark, Bash and Yakwe. , we will look much better next year w our inside game. A grad transfer will would also improve things.

Yakwe and Bash have no inside game. Bash belongs at the 3. You're not a 4 if you can't play with your back to the basket. I think we are expecting way too much from Clark. He barely contributed at Michigan State. Owens is the only one I see who is working hard all the time. His game keeps getting better.

I said the same thing a couple of weeks ago. Bench Ellison, start Owens at the five and slide the other two down one. BA is a natural three who's big and aggressive enough to create match up problems and that moves Yakwe to a more natural position - he doesn't really have a position but as the kids say it is what it is. Who cares if Owens fouls out in the first 20 minutes or the middle 20 minutes or the last 20. He has a tremendous upside. Whereas Ellison doesn't really bring anything to the table other than he's a big guard but when he plays he's essentially an undersized three anyway.

This lineup makes it very easy for opposing to teams to cheat St. John's defensively. Ellison balances other 2 guards and Bash is a matchup problem for opposing 4's.

Ellison might have nodded to you in the tunnel a couple of times, but he's awful. On a good team he wouldn't see the floor. I hope he gets better and I think he will as an upperclassman but he has a lot to overcome, being dead from the neck up.

Here we go. 1 bad game and 'he sucks' movement starts again.

Does he make some scratch your head plays? Sure but he can also do things other guards in conference can't. At 6'6 and 3rd-4th guard on this team that's a tremendous asset. Again only a sophomore.

Has been a big part of a few conference wins. Notably DePaul 2x, Marquette, and Providence

I didn't say he sucks, I said he was awful. There's a difference. That is, he's not irredeemable, he's just not presently much of a basketball player.

In three games he shot 21 of 33 from the floor. The rest of the time he's 50 for 139, that's 38 percent. 38 percent doesn't pose match up problems for anyone. If I were the other guy I'd let him shoot all day. Because two third of the time he misses and every shot he takes is a shot one of the other guys - who might make one - aren't taking.

Yes, he has size that the other guards don't have. But for his size he's a bad rebounder and an atrocious defender. He gets to the basket well but doesn't finish and is an awful free throw shooter. He's an adequate passer, but if he were passing to himself - which the other guys have to do, pass to him - he'd have fewer assists. He's also one of the dumber players I've seen in quite a while. He thinks he's the man, whereas at best he'd be a piece. Once a game he throws a lazy half court pass that leads to a lay up on the other end. He doesn't even know how big the court is, which is why once a game he catches the ball out of bounds. Yes, he's a sophomore, but on a real team he wouldn't have seen the floor as a freshman or a sophomore. That's what so maddening about the lack of personnel continuity. He plays because there's no one else who can. I don't blame him for what he is but let's not pretend that what he is is anything more than what he is.

While I value stats and data they don't tell all.

You might value shooting % and as do I but this doesn't tell you whether shots are off catch, bounce, contested, etc. Even so I'll bite and say that Ellison's % are up 78% from last year (82% from 3) and he's shooting similar or better than his peers: Carrington, Powell, Hauser, Reinhardt, DiVincenzo, McDermott, Savage, Macura, Goodin, Gage, Wood, Cyrus.

With all this said if Ellison made 1 shot a game he missed then he'd be shooting 60% instead of 45%. All of a sudden he'd be best % for a guard in college basketball.

In more mins a game this year he's shooting better, rebounding better, defending better, and turning the ball over less. I'll take that progression from Frosh to Soph. I'll stick to my guns on this one and say he's a pretty good player with very good potential. Tremendous get for a spring signee too.

On a decent team, he wouldn't be playing. He has great guard skills for his size, but his awarenesss and decision-making, even compared to a true frosh like Ponds, are alarmingly bad.  I don't see the defense and rebounding that you do. He goes under every screen and he can't stop anyone's dribble. He does do a good job against bigger wings that like to settle for jumpers....I'll give him that. I think it is very possible he can develop into a solid upperclassman, but it seems like our best lineups are squeezing him out.

+1

Foad

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2017, 08:13:13 AM »
Owens. Kid gets better every game.
Its not an accident. He works his tail off. If we don't loose anyone , I think Owens w another 20 pounds and Clark, Bash and Yakwe. , we will look much better next year w our inside game. A grad transfer will would also improve things.

Yakwe and Bash have no inside game. Bash belongs at the 3. You're not a 4 if you can't play with your back to the basket. I think we are expecting way too much from Clark. He barely contributed at Michigan State. Owens is the only one I see who is working hard all the time. His game keeps getting better.

I said the same thing a couple of weeks ago. Bench Ellison, start Owens at the five and slide the other two down one. BA is a natural three who's big and aggressive enough to create match up problems and that moves Yakwe to a more natural position - he doesn't really have a position but as the kids say it is what it is. Who cares if Owens fouls out in the first 20 minutes or the middle 20 minutes or the last 20. He has a tremendous upside. Whereas Ellison doesn't really bring anything to the table other than he's a big guard but when he plays he's essentially an undersized three anyway.

This lineup makes it very easy for opposing to teams to cheat St. John's defensively. Ellison balances other 2 guards and Bash is a matchup problem for opposing 4's.

Ellison might have nodded to you in the tunnel a couple of times, but he's awful. On a good team he wouldn't see the floor. I hope he gets better and I think he will as an upperclassman but he has a lot to overcome, being dead from the neck up.

Here we go. 1 bad game and 'he sucks' movement starts again.

Does he make some scratch your head plays? Sure but he can also do things other guards in conference can't. At 6'6 and 3rd-4th guard on this team that's a tremendous asset. Again only a sophomore.

Has been a big part of a few conference wins. Notably DePaul 2x, Marquette, and Providence

I didn't say he sucks, I said he was awful. There's a difference. That is, he's not irredeemable, he's just not presently much of a basketball player.

In three games he shot 21 of 33 from the floor. The rest of the time he's 50 for 139, that's 38 percent. 38 percent doesn't pose match up problems for anyone. If I were the other guy I'd let him shoot all day. Because two third of the time he misses and every shot he takes is a shot one of the other guys - who might make one - aren't taking.

Yes, he has size that the other guards don't have. But for his size he's a bad rebounder and an atrocious defender. He gets to the basket well but doesn't finish and is an awful free throw shooter. He's an adequate passer, but if he were passing to himself - which the other guys have to do, pass to him - he'd have fewer assists. He's also one of the dumber players I've seen in quite a while. He thinks he's the man, whereas at best he'd be a piece. Once a game he throws a lazy half court pass that leads to a lay up on the other end. He doesn't even know how big the court is, which is why once a game he catches the ball out of bounds. Yes, he's a sophomore, but on a real team he wouldn't have seen the floor as a freshman or a sophomore. That's what so maddening about the lack of personnel continuity. He plays because there's no one else who can. I don't blame him for what he is but let's not pretend that what he is is anything more than what he is.

While I value stats and data they don't tell all.

You might value shooting % and as do I but this doesn't tell you whether shots are off catch, bounce, contested, etc. Even so I'll bite and say that Ellison's % are up 78% from last year (82% from 3) and he's shooting similar or better than his peers: Carrington, Powell, Hauser, Reinhardt, DiVincenzo, McDermott, Savage, Macura, Goodin, Gage, Wood, Cyrus.

With all this said if Ellison made 1 shot a game he missed then he'd be shooting 60% instead of 45%. All of a sudden he'd be best % for a guard in college basketball.

In more mins a game this year he's shooting better, rebounding better, defending better, and turning the ball over less. I'll take that progression from Frosh to Soph. I'll stick to my guns on this one and say he's a pretty good player with very good potential. Tremendous get for a spring signee too.

Well okay but that's not where this started. Where this started was I said Owens should start and Ellison should not and you disagreed. If we were having a conversation about how Ellison is better this year than he was last year and will be better next year than he is this year and has the potential to be a good four year player we'd be agreeing. But this year the three guard lineup is for the birds and he's the albatross.

Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2017, 08:55:07 AM »
Owens. Kid gets better every game.
Its not an accident. He works his tail off. If we don't loose anyone , I think Owens w another 20 pounds and Clark, Bash and Yakwe. , we will look much better next year w our inside game. A grad transfer will would also improve things.

Yakwe and Bash have no inside game. Bash belongs at the 3. You're not a 4 if you can't play with your back to the basket. I think we are expecting way too much from Clark. He barely contributed at Michigan State. Owens is the only one I see who is working hard all the time. His game keeps getting better.

I said the same thing a couple of weeks ago. Bench Ellison, start Owens at the five and slide the other two down one. BA is a natural three who's big and aggressive enough to create match up problems and that moves Yakwe to a more natural position - he doesn't really have a position but as the kids say it is what it is. Who cares if Owens fouls out in the first 20 minutes or the middle 20 minutes or the last 20. He has a tremendous upside. Whereas Ellison doesn't really bring anything to the table other than he's a big guard but when he plays he's essentially an undersized three anyway.

This lineup makes it very easy for opposing to teams to cheat St. John's defensively. Ellison balances other 2 guards and Bash is a matchup problem for opposing 4's.

Ellison might have nodded to you in the tunnel a couple of times, but he's awful. On a good team he wouldn't see the floor. I hope he gets better and I think he will as an upperclassman but he has a lot to overcome, being dead from the neck up.

Here we go. 1 bad game and 'he sucks' movement starts again.

Does he make some scratch your head plays? Sure but he can also do things other guards in conference can't. At 6'6 and 3rd-4th guard on this team that's a tremendous asset. Again only a sophomore.

Has been a big part of a few conference wins. Notably DePaul 2x, Marquette, and Providence

I didn't say he sucks, I said he was awful. There's a difference. That is, he's not irredeemable, he's just not presently much of a basketball player.

In three games he shot 21 of 33 from the floor. The rest of the time he's 50 for 139, that's 38 percent. 38 percent doesn't pose match up problems for anyone. If I were the other guy I'd let him shoot all day. Because two third of the time he misses and every shot he takes is a shot one of the other guys - who might make one - aren't taking.

Yes, he has size that the other guards don't have. But for his size he's a bad rebounder and an atrocious defender. He gets to the basket well but doesn't finish and is an awful free throw shooter. He's an adequate passer, but if he were passing to himself - which the other guys have to do, pass to him - he'd have fewer assists. He's also one of the dumber players I've seen in quite a while. He thinks he's the man, whereas at best he'd be a piece. Once a game he throws a lazy half court pass that leads to a lay up on the other end. He doesn't even know how big the court is, which is why once a game he catches the ball out of bounds. Yes, he's a sophomore, but on a real team he wouldn't have seen the floor as a freshman or a sophomore. That's what so maddening about the lack of personnel continuity. He plays because there's no one else who can. I don't blame him for what he is but let's not pretend that what he is is anything more than what he is.

While I value stats and data they don't tell all.

You might value shooting % and as do I but this doesn't tell you whether shots are off catch, bounce, contested, etc. Even so I'll bite and say that Ellison's % are up 78% from last year (82% from 3) and he's shooting similar or better than his peers: Carrington, Powell, Hauser, Reinhardt, DiVincenzo, McDermott, Savage, Macura, Goodin, Gage, Wood, Cyrus.

With all this said if Ellison made 1 shot a game he missed then he'd be shooting 60% instead of 45%. All of a sudden he'd be best % for a guard in college basketball.

In more mins a game this year he's shooting better, rebounding better, defending better, and turning the ball over less. I'll take that progression from Frosh to Soph. I'll stick to my guns on this one and say he's a pretty good player with very good potential. Tremendous get for a spring signee too.

On a decent team, he wouldn't be playing. He has great guard skills for his size, but his awarenesss and decision-making, even compared to a true frosh like Ponds, are alarmingly bad.  I don't see the defense and rebounding that you do. He goes under every screen and he can't stop anyone's dribble. He does do a good job against bigger wings that like to settle for jumpers....I'll give him that. I think it is very possible he can develop into a solid upperclassman, but it seems like our best lineups are squeezing him out.

On a decent team? So what does that make St John's?
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Marillac

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2017, 09:34:52 AM »
Owens. Kid gets better every game.
Its not an accident. He works his tail off. If we don't loose anyone , I think Owens w another 20 pounds and Clark, Bash and Yakwe. , we will look much better next year w our inside game. A grad transfer will would also improve things.

Yakwe and Bash have no inside game. Bash belongs at the 3. You're not a 4 if you can't play with your back to the basket. I think we are expecting way too much from Clark. He barely contributed at Michigan State. Owens is the only one I see who is working hard all the time. His game keeps getting better.

I said the same thing a couple of weeks ago. Bench Ellison, start Owens at the five and slide the other two down one. BA is a natural three who's big and aggressive enough to create match up problems and that moves Yakwe to a more natural position - he doesn't really have a position but as the kids say it is what it is. Who cares if Owens fouls out in the first 20 minutes or the middle 20 minutes or the last 20. He has a tremendous upside. Whereas Ellison doesn't really bring anything to the table other than he's a big guard but when he plays he's essentially an undersized three anyway.

This lineup makes it very easy for opposing to teams to cheat St. John's defensively. Ellison balances other 2 guards and Bash is a matchup problem for opposing 4's.

Ellison might have nodded to you in the tunnel a couple of times, but he's awful. On a good team he wouldn't see the floor. I hope he gets better and I think he will as an upperclassman but he has a lot to overcome, being dead from the neck up.

Here we go. 1 bad game and 'he sucks' movement starts again.

Does he make some scratch your head plays? Sure but he can also do things other guards in conference can't. At 6'6 and 3rd-4th guard on this team that's a tremendous asset. Again only a sophomore.

Has been a big part of a few conference wins. Notably DePaul 2x, Marquette, and Providence

I didn't say he sucks, I said he was awful. There's a difference. That is, he's not irredeemable, he's just not presently much of a basketball player.

In three games he shot 21 of 33 from the floor. The rest of the time he's 50 for 139, that's 38 percent. 38 percent doesn't pose match up problems for anyone. If I were the other guy I'd let him shoot all day. Because two third of the time he misses and every shot he takes is a shot one of the other guys - who might make one - aren't taking.

Yes, he has size that the other guards don't have. But for his size he's a bad rebounder and an atrocious defender. He gets to the basket well but doesn't finish and is an awful free throw shooter. He's an adequate passer, but if he were passing to himself - which the other guys have to do, pass to him - he'd have fewer assists. He's also one of the dumber players I've seen in quite a while. He thinks he's the man, whereas at best he'd be a piece. Once a game he throws a lazy half court pass that leads to a lay up on the other end. He doesn't even know how big the court is, which is why once a game he catches the ball out of bounds. Yes, he's a sophomore, but on a real team he wouldn't have seen the floor as a freshman or a sophomore. That's what so maddening about the lack of personnel continuity. He plays because there's no one else who can. I don't blame him for what he is but let's not pretend that what he is is anything more than what he is.

While I value stats and data they don't tell all.

You might value shooting % and as do I but this doesn't tell you whether shots are off catch, bounce, contested, etc. Even so I'll bite and say that Ellison's % are up 78% from last year (82% from 3) and he's shooting similar or better than his peers: Carrington, Powell, Hauser, Reinhardt, DiVincenzo, McDermott, Savage, Macura, Goodin, Gage, Wood, Cyrus.

With all this said if Ellison made 1 shot a game he missed then he'd be shooting 60% instead of 45%. All of a sudden he'd be best % for a guard in college basketball.

In more mins a game this year he's shooting better, rebounding better, defending better, and turning the ball over less. I'll take that progression from Frosh to Soph. I'll stick to my guns on this one and say he's a pretty good player with very good potential. Tremendous get for a spring signee too.

On a decent team, he wouldn't be playing. He has great guard skills for his size, but his awarenesss and decision-making, even compared to a true frosh like Ponds, are alarmingly bad.  I don't see the defense and rebounding that you do. He goes under every screen and he can't stop anyone's dribble. He does do a good job against bigger wings that like to settle for jumpers....I'll give him that. I think it is very possible he can develop into a solid upperclassman, but it seems like our best lineups are squeezing him out.

On a decent team? So what does that make St John's?

12-14.