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Seton Hall - Player of the Game

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JohnnyJungle

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2017, 05:30:38 PM »
Quote from: Foad on February 13, 2017, 04:18:12 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 03:31:32 PM
Ellison already averages better than Eugene Lawrence

Not really. Except for slightly better shooting percentage Geno had better numbers both F and SO years.

GL: 7.3 / 3.7 reb / 3.9 ast / 1.7 stl / 39% 2 / 28 % 3 / 68 FT
ME: 7.3 / 2.5 reb / 2.6 ast / .04 stl / 37% / 32 % 3 / 65 FT


GL: 9.3  / 4.8 / 4.9 / 1.6 stl / 36 / 28 / 69
ME: 7.9 / 3 / 2.8 / 1 stl / 45 / 40 / 56
 
Geno was also a much better defender.


EL +7mpg frosh year
EL +10mpg sophomore year

Team records were both poor however this year St. John's could do better in conference. Eugene is a friend and he played his tail off but respectfully he was not a standout player.
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Foad

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2017, 05:42:03 PM »
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 05:30:38 PM
Quote from: Foad on February 13, 2017, 04:18:12 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 03:31:32 PM
Ellison already averages better than Eugene Lawrence

Not really. Except for slightly better shooting percentage Geno had better numbers both F and SO years.

GL: 7.3 / 3.7 reb / 3.9 ast / 1.7 stl / 39% 2 / 28 % 3 / 68 FT
ME: 7.3 / 2.5 reb / 2.6 ast / .04 stl / 37% / 32 % 3 / 65 FT


GL: 9.3  / 4.8 / 4.9 / 1.6 stl / 36 / 28 / 69
ME: 7.9 / 3 / 2.8 / 1 stl / 45 / 40 / 56
 
Geno was also a much better defender.


EL +7mpg frosh year
EL +10mpg sophomore year

Team records were both poor however this year St. John's could do better in conference. Eugene is a friend and he played his tail off but respectfully he was not a standout player.

A. You said ME had better stats. He does not. B. You argued that Ellison should start, then argued that he's a good third or fourth guard. To the extent that fourth guards matter, he's a fine fourth guard. I'd still trade him for a power forward though. C. No one said Geno was a standout. I liked him more than most and he definitely played hard under difficult circumstances and out of position, but in fact he had a pretty mediocre career. So so far has Ellison. This is especially troubling because he has gifts - size and pedigree - that other players (like Geno) did not.

He is the sort of four year player that every good program has and needs. But he has severe shortcomings as a basketball player. I don't see how that's an arguable point. 
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goredmen

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2017, 06:28:47 PM »
This is one of those cases where the player isn't as good as his biggest supporters think he is and isn't as bad as his biggest naysayers think he is. Ellison is a nice piece to have but definitely not a guy to lose sleep over if he leaves or something
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JohnnyJungle

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2017, 07:41:15 PM »
Quote from: Foad on February 13, 2017, 05:42:03 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 05:30:38 PM
Quote from: Foad on February 13, 2017, 04:18:12 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 03:31:32 PM
Ellison already averages better than Eugene Lawrence

Not really. Except for slightly better shooting percentage Geno had better numbers both F and SO years.

GL: 7.3 / 3.7 reb / 3.9 ast / 1.7 stl / 39% 2 / 28 % 3 / 68 FT
ME: 7.3 / 2.5 reb / 2.6 ast / .04 stl / 37% / 32 % 3 / 65 FT


GL: 9.3  / 4.8 / 4.9 / 1.6 stl / 36 / 28 / 69
ME: 7.9 / 3 / 2.8 / 1 stl / 45 / 40 / 56
 
Geno was also a much better defender.


EL +7mpg frosh year
EL +10mpg sophomore year

Team records were both poor however this year St. John's could do better in conference. Eugene is a friend and he played his tail off but respectfully he was not a standout player.

A. You said ME had better stats. He does not. B. You argued that Ellison should start, then argued that he's a good third or fourth guard. To the extent that fourth guards matter, he's a fine fourth guard. I'd still trade him for a power forward though. C. No one said Geno was a standout. I liked him more than most and he definitely played hard under difficult circumstances and out of position, but in fact he had a pretty mediocre career. So so far has Ellison. This is especially troubling because he has gifts - size and pedigree - that other players (like Geno) did not.

He is the sort of four year player that every good program has and needs. But he has severe shortcomings as a basketball player. I don't see how that's an arguable point. 

Your original statement was to start Bash at 3 over Ellison because Ellison is awful. I think our best lineup is with 3 guards, Bash, and a big.

In this conference, in today's game, 3 guards should be a staple. Right now Ellison is that 3rd guard. I think next year Simon steps in ahead of him.
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Foad

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2017, 08:22:25 PM »
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 07:41:15 PM
Your original statement was to start Bash at 3 over Ellison because Ellison is awful

I said nothing of the kind.

"Bench Ellison, start Owens at the five and slide the other two down one. BA is a natural three who's big and aggressive enough to create match up problems and that moves Yakwe to a more natural position - he doesn't really have a position but as the kids say it is what it is. Who cares if Owens fouls out in the first 20 minutes or the middle 20 minutes or the last 20. He has a tremendous upside. Whereas Ellison doesn't really bring anything to the table other than he's a big guard but when he plays he's essentially an undersized three anyway."

See? the word awful does not appear.

My original post said that Owens should start over Ellison. Over the course of disagreeing with that in half a dozen posts you've gone from Ellison should start over Owens, to Ellison's the best fourth guard in the conference, to Ellison's better than Phil Missere and Dexter Gray, to outright lying. Res ipsa loquitur.
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Marillac

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2017, 09:36:55 PM »
Quote from: Foad on February 13, 2017, 04:18:12 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 03:31:32 PM
Ellison already averages better than Eugene Lawrence

Not really. Except for slightly better shooting percentage Geno had better numbers both F and SO years.

GL: 7.3 / 3.7 reb / 3.9 ast / 1.7 stl / 39% 2 / 28 % 3 / 68 FT
ME: 7.3 / 2.5 reb / 2.6 ast / .04 stl / 37% / 32 % 3 / 65 FT


GL: 9.3  / 4.8 / 4.9 / 1.6 stl / 36 / 28 / 69
ME: 7.9 / 3 / 2.8 / 1 stl / 45 / 40 / 56
 
Geno was also a much better defender.


Those Geno rebounding #s should embarrass Ellison. And GL did it playing with 6'10 Lamont Hamilton, Cedric Jackson, Showtime, 6'8 Rodney Epperson, Missere, and Ryan Williams...plus Mase Jr. and Aaron Spears year two.
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fordham96

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2017, 09:39:35 PM »
Ellison is going to blossom into a solid 4 year player.
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Poison

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2017, 10:00:35 PM »
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 07:41:15 PM
Quote from: Foad on February 13, 2017, 05:42:03 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 05:30:38 PM
Quote from: Foad on February 13, 2017, 04:18:12 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 03:31:32 PM
Ellison already averages better than Eugene Lawrence

Not really. Except for slightly better shooting percentage Geno had better numbers both F and SO years.

GL: 7.3 / 3.7 reb / 3.9 ast / 1.7 stl / 39% 2 / 28 % 3 / 68 FT
ME: 7.3 / 2.5 reb / 2.6 ast / .04 stl / 37% / 32 % 3 / 65 FT


GL: 9.3  / 4.8 / 4.9 / 1.6 stl / 36 / 28 / 69
ME: 7.9 / 3 / 2.8 / 1 stl / 45 / 40 / 56
 
Geno was also a much better defender.


EL +7mpg frosh year
EL +10mpg sophomore year

Team records were both poor however this year St. John's could do better in conference. Eugene is a friend and he played his tail off but respectfully he was not a standout player.

A. You said ME had better stats. He does not. B. You argued that Ellison should start, then argued that he's a good third or fourth guard. To the extent that fourth guards matter, he's a fine fourth guard. I'd still trade him for a power forward though. C. No one said Geno was a standout. I liked him more than most and he definitely played hard under difficult circumstances and out of position, but in fact he had a pretty mediocre career. So so far has Ellison. This is especially troubling because he has gifts - size and pedigree - that other players (like Geno) did not.

He is the sort of four year player that every good program has and needs. But he has severe shortcomings as a basketball player. I don't see how that's an arguable point. 

Your original statement was to start Bash at 3 over Ellison because Ellison is awful. I think our best lineup is with 3 guards, Bash, and a big.

In this conference, in today's game, 3 guards should be a staple. Right now Ellison is that 3rd guard. I think next year Simon steps in ahead of him.

I'm hearing that regarding Simon. Apparently, he's very good.
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mjmaherjr

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2017, 10:07:34 PM »
Quote from: Poison on February 13, 2017, 10:00:35 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 07:41:15 PM
Quote from: Foad on February 13, 2017, 05:42:03 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 05:30:38 PM
Quote from: Foad on February 13, 2017, 04:18:12 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 03:31:32 PM
Ellison already averages better than Eugene Lawrence

Not really. Except for slightly better shooting percentage Geno had better numbers both F and SO years.

GL: 7.3 / 3.7 reb / 3.9 ast / 1.7 stl / 39% 2 / 28 % 3 / 68 FT
ME: 7.3 / 2.5 reb / 2.6 ast / .04 stl / 37% / 32 % 3 / 65 FT


GL: 9.3  / 4.8 / 4.9 / 1.6 stl / 36 / 28 / 69
ME: 7.9 / 3 / 2.8 / 1 stl / 45 / 40 / 56
 
Geno was also a much better defender.


EL +7mpg frosh year
EL +10mpg sophomore year

Team records were both poor however this year St. John's could do better in conference. Eugene is a friend and he played his tail off but respectfully he was not a standout player.

A. You said ME had better stats. He does not. B. You argued that Ellison should start, then argued that he's a good third or fourth guard. To the extent that fourth guards matter, he's a fine fourth guard. I'd still trade him for a power forward though. C. No one said Geno was a standout. I liked him more than most and he definitely played hard under difficult circumstances and out of position, but in fact he had a pretty mediocre career. So so far has Ellison. This is especially troubling because he has gifts - size and pedigree - that other players (like Geno) did not.

He is the sort of four year player that every good program has and needs. But he has severe shortcomings as a basketball player. I don't see how that's an arguable point. 

Your original statement was to start Bash at 3 over Ellison because Ellison is awful. I think our best lineup is with 3 guards, Bash, and a big.

In this conference, in today's game, 3 guards should be a staple. Right now Ellison is that 3rd guard. I think next year Simon steps in ahead of him.

I'm hearing that regarding Simon. Apparently, he's very good.
well you were right on Owens. You hearing anything about Clark ?
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JohnnyJungle

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2017, 10:20:42 PM »
Quote from: Marillac on February 13, 2017, 09:36:55 PM
Quote from: Foad on February 13, 2017, 04:18:12 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 03:31:32 PM
Ellison already averages better than Eugene Lawrence

Not really. Except for slightly better shooting percentage Geno had better numbers both F and SO years.

GL: 7.3 / 3.7 reb / 3.9 ast / 1.7 stl / 39% 2 / 28 % 3 / 68 FT
ME: 7.3 / 2.5 reb / 2.6 ast / .04 stl / 37% / 32 % 3 / 65 FT


GL: 9.3  / 4.8 / 4.9 / 1.6 stl / 36 / 28 / 69
ME: 7.9 / 3 / 2.8 / 1 stl / 45 / 40 / 56
 
Geno was also a much better defender.


Those Geno rebounding #s should embarrass Ellison. And GL did it playing with 6'10 Lamont Hamilton, Cedric Jackson, Showtime, 6'8 Rodney Epperson, Missere, and Ryan Williams...plus Mase Jr. and Aaron Spears year two.

Epperson played 7 games. I can't believe I'm still keeping this going.
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derk

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2017, 10:53:05 PM »
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 10:20:42 PM
Quote from: Marillac on February 13, 2017, 09:36:55 PM
Quote from: Foad on February 13, 2017, 04:18:12 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 03:31:32 PM
Ellison already averages better than Eugene Lawrence

Not really. Except for slightly better shooting percentage Geno had better numbers both F and SO years.

GL: 7.3 / 3.7 reb / 3.9 ast / 1.7 stl / 39% 2 / 28 % 3 / 68 FT
ME: 7.3 / 2.5 reb / 2.6 ast / .04 stl / 37% / 32 % 3 / 65 FT


GL: 9.3  / 4.8 / 4.9 / 1.6 stl / 36 / 28 / 69
ME: 7.9 / 3 / 2.8 / 1 stl / 45 / 40 / 56
 
Geno was also a much better defender.


Those Geno rebounding #s should embarrass Ellison. And GL did it playing with 6'10 Lamont Hamilton, Cedric Jackson, Showtime, 6'8 Rodney Epperson, Missere, and Ryan Williams...plus Mase Jr. and Aaron Spears year two.

Epperson played 7 games. I can't believe I'm still keeping this going.
[/quote.

Rodney Epperson - what could have been .
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Celtics11

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2017, 12:34:57 PM »
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 11:15:21 AM
The difference in opinion is what keeps us all coming back.

I see a lot of players and basketball for a living. Certainly doesn't make my opinion any more valuable than anyone else but I do have perspective to compare. Ellison is still developing but the physical tools he has is something I value (as do many coaches) and he's much better than some of you give credit. The grass isn't so green elsewhere.

I think it's easy to point out short comings or missed plays for the team you root for because you're watching with a microscope. You remember the 1 wrong vs the 5 right.

This team is 12-14 but they are a lot better than that. If St. John's had to replay the season I think they'd be 16-10 and the narrative changes so much.

Compare Ellison to 3rd or 4th guard on Big East rosters and I'd probably take him over just about everyone.
Agree with your microscope comment but more like one right play vs 5 wrong ones.
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carmineabbatiello

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2017, 01:54:07 PM »
A team can't play with only two guards.  Malik is our third best guard and clearly one of our 5 or 6 best players.  He definitely deserves the significant minutes he's getting.

Outside of the obvious not starting your best player error, and nobody has disclosed the inside scoop on that yet, our ( dare I say ) outstanding young coach has been doing a fantastic job managing personnel and substitutions decisions. 
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Marillac

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2017, 10:25:45 PM »
Quote from: Poison on February 13, 2017, 10:00:35 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 07:41:15 PM
Quote from: Foad on February 13, 2017, 05:42:03 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 05:30:38 PM
Quote from: Foad on February 13, 2017, 04:18:12 PM
Quote from: Dave on February 13, 2017, 03:31:32 PM
Ellison already averages better than Eugene Lawrence

Not really. Except for slightly better shooting percentage Geno had better numbers both F and SO years.

GL: 7.3 / 3.7 reb / 3.9 ast / 1.7 stl / 39% 2 / 28 % 3 / 68 FT
ME: 7.3 / 2.5 reb / 2.6 ast / .04 stl / 37% / 32 % 3 / 65 FT


GL: 9.3  / 4.8 / 4.9 / 1.6 stl / 36 / 28 / 69
ME: 7.9 / 3 / 2.8 / 1 stl / 45 / 40 / 56
 
Geno was also a much better defender.


EL +7mpg frosh year
EL +10mpg sophomore year

Team records were both poor however this year St. John's could do better in conference. Eugene is a friend and he played his tail off but respectfully he was not a standout player.

A. You said ME had better stats. He does not. B. You argued that Ellison should start, then argued that he's a good third or fourth guard. To the extent that fourth guards matter, he's a fine fourth guard. I'd still trade him for a power forward though. C. No one said Geno was a standout. I liked him more than most and he definitely played hard under difficult circumstances and out of position, but in fact he had a pretty mediocre career. So so far has Ellison. This is especially troubling because he has gifts - size and pedigree - that other players (like Geno) did not.

He is the sort of four year player that every good program has and needs. But he has severe shortcomings as a basketball player. I don't see how that's an arguable point. 

Your original statement was to start Bash at 3 over Ellison because Ellison is awful. I think our best lineup is with 3 guards, Bash, and a big.

In this conference, in today's game, 3 guards should be a staple. Right now Ellison is that 3rd guard. I think next year Simon steps in ahead of him.

I'm hearing that regarding Simon. Apparently, he's very good.

If Simon doesn't blow Ellison out of the water from day one, that's not good news. Arizona coaches and players raved about his defense last year, and we need a defensive stopper in the worst way. While I don't think he's a PG like some label him, his handle for the SF position would be pretty elite. The knock on Simon is shooting. Ellison would be be a good complement.
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boo3

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2017, 11:21:31 PM »
There is always a whipping boy...It's Ellison this year..

As usual, he's not nearly as bad as some make him out to be.

Inconsistent , yes.. Terrible, no.   Good 4 year player.  Need those.
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Marillac

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #75 on: February 14, 2017, 11:51:38 PM »
Quote from: boo3 on February 14, 2017, 11:21:31 PM
There is always a whipping boy...It's Ellison this year..

As usual, he's not nearly as bad as some make him out to be.

Inconsistent , yes.. Terrible, no.   Good 4 year player.  Need those.

Can't disagree with any of that.
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MCNPA

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #76 on: February 15, 2017, 08:37:34 AM »
Marvin Clark is a big strong kid that the MSU fans really didn't want to lose.  That's enough for me.  The year off should be great for healing injuries and working on his body.  Adding a strong wing like him should help split time with Bashir.  From what I've seen of the clips of Simon, he's real athletic but his passing might be his best attribute.  Crafty passer which we can really use.
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JohnnyJungle

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #77 on: February 15, 2017, 08:47:42 AM »
Quote from: MCNPA on February 15, 2017, 08:37:34 AM
Marvin Clark is a big strong kid that the MSU fans really didn't want to lose.  That's enough for me.  The year off should be great for healing injuries and working on his body.  Adding a strong wing like him should help split time with Bashir.  From what I've seen of the clips of Simon, he's real athletic but his passing might be his best attribute.  Crafty passer which we can really use.

Also consider that Clark has made over 50% of his buckets in his short collegiate career. I like efficiency.
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carmineabbatiello

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #78 on: February 15, 2017, 10:58:27 AM »
Quote from: boo3 on February 14, 2017, 11:21:31 PM
There is always a whipping boy...It's Ellison this year..

As usual, he's not nearly as bad as some make him out to be.

Inconsistent , yes.. Terrible, no.   Good 4 year player.  Need those.

               fg             3pt   
15/16     37%          32%
16/17     45%          40%

Plus an uptick in rebounds, assists, blocks, steals with a lot less turnovers.  Only thing down for Malik has been free throw shooting.  If he improves as much into 17/18 as he did into this season?...then we've really got something.

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96 Schermerhorn Street

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Re: Seton Hall - Player of the Game
« Reply #79 on: February 15, 2017, 12:52:38 PM »
Do we have a Lovett boycott? Yes Owen played his best game of the year, but, Lovett was the reason we won. It seem that there is a vote for anyone other then Lovett.  I was never able to find   a Player of the Game for Villanova 2 where Lovett  was without question player of the game.
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