Game 29: Georgetown

If Lovett comes back next year then Ellison should not have a role on this team. Stick with the same backcourt rotations we are doing this year and just replace Ellison with Simon. Ellison should not get any minutes at the expense of our top 3 guards

Malik Ellison has failed to get a single offensive rebound 10 times in the last 12 games. That is the the greatest hustle stat out there. Case closed.

I'm not aware of all the philosophies of team but more times than not the 3 isn't crashing offensive glass in most schemes. They are getting their asses back on transition defense but hey you are right in the #'s you pointed out.

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 26, 2017, 11:03:56 AM

Quote from: Marillac on February 26, 2017, 09:39:24 AM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 25, 2017, 09:33:13 PM

- Had one or two or five of those Bronx Pale ales for the first time that Mj always touts.
Quite refreshing!

- Ellison has misplaced his stroke and his confidence and was clearly playing better earlier in the year.  But he's lean, long, our best defensive guard and all our other guards are shetland ponies. He was a vital piece against a Georgetown team that's typically bigger than us 1 thru 5. 

Coach is smarter than youse guys and is using him appropriately.   He needs to play the 30+ he gets.  Frustrating as it may be at times.

- Da Ali B had a great 4 pt. 0 rebound 20 minute outing. Hit a nice ever rare for him off the dribble J and had that huge steal breakaway dunk. Be honest - anybody else anticipated a travel on that play?  Some of the best D without fouling he's ever shown.  His inside play, plus Darien's return,  helped neutralize the Hoya's inside advantage without To.  Was lucky he didn't get called for an intentional foul twice.

- Bash's belief system is unique.  In his mind he's a cross between George Gervin and Earl Monroe.

- The not a Be player who shouldn't be on the court that needs to transfer and can't guard a lamppost Italian sparked the win.  Oh yeah...he's a sophmore.

- Sham is in range of the third all-time leading scorer 3'lo's St. John's freshmen scoring record.  An even bigger accomplishment is that he could pass the great Avery "single game 3pt record holder" Patterson's 72 threes and move into 2nd place on the all-time list.

- Have you guys been watching the press conferences?  It has been made crystal clear, many times, by multiple players, that it is we the fans who are directly responsible for all of these home wins.

So the onus is upon us.  You want to have a winning basketball team?  Get your a$$ to the games!!!

I stopped reading when I saw Ellison was our best defensive guard. The next screen he goes over will be his first--pure laziness.  He couldn't cover Baldi or any of his old St. Francis Prep teammates off the bounce. He may be the worst defensive "guard" I've ever seen at St. John's, and I put guard in quotes because he can't defend the position two years into his career.

Who's better?

Everyone. He has no ability to stop anyone's dribble. Don't be fooled by him getting a deflection or steal here and there. He's a lousy defender and he has absolutely no desire to rebound.

You believe that LP and Fellini are better defenders than MalikIV?  We must be watching different games.

All the people who scream about how some guys should never get off the bench have me scratching my head.  Yesterday we needed Amar because the bigs were in foul trouble and he came through for us.  That wouldn't have happened if he never played.  Same goes for Mussini.  It is a team game, where different players will contribute more on given nights.  Some guys will get more minutes because they have more talent, but every player should be put in a position where he is ready to contrubute if/when needed.

Having good individual defenders is ideal, however good defensive teams are good because they play as a TEAM. One of my biggest gripes with Ellison is his help defense, or lack thereof. His weak side rotation is terrible. He shows no interest in rotating especially if that would mean him mixing it up down low. He wants no part of it. If by chance he happens to stumble into position, Its as if he turns into a spectator and watches the game. Given our lack of size I don't believe Mullin has a choice but to play him, but next year I hope should be a different story. 

Ponds defense definitely needs improvement, but look what he gives us on the offensive end.
Mussini's effort and overall defense is equal to Ellison's (Agree with SJUFAN analysis), but he gives us more on the offensive end. Can never have too many good shooters.

Having good individual defenders is ideal, however good defensive teams are good because they play as a TEAM. One of my biggest gripes with Ellison is his help defense, or lack thereof. His weak side rotation is terrible. He shows no interest in rotating especially if that would mean him mixing it up down low. He wants no part of it. If by chance he happens to stumble into position, Its as if he turns into a spectator and watches the game. Given our lack of size I don't believe Mullin has a choice but to play him, but next year I hope should be a different story. 

+1

Ponds defense definitely needs improvement, but look what he gives us on the offensive end.
Mussini's effort and overall defense is equal to Ellison's (Agree with SJUFAN analysis), but he gives us more on the offensive end. Can never have too many good shooters.

Ponds could definitely be considered a lazy defender at this point but there is no denying his defensive talent. He could be the BE defensive player of the year before his career is over.

Quote from: Marillac on February 26, 2017, 04:02:15 PM

Malik Ellison has failed to get a single offensive rebound 10 times in the last 12 games. That is the the greatest hustle stat out there. Case closed.

I'm not aware of all the philosophies of team but more times than not the 3 isn't crashing offensive glass in most schemes. They are getting their asses back on transition defense but hey you are right in the #'s you pointed out.

Josh Hart has never had less than 62 offensive boards playing the three for Nova--even as a backup. He also averages 6.7 boards per game the last last two years. Lavor Postell averaged 6.9 boards as a senior and half of those were offensive. There is no scheme in basketball where the SF abandons the offensive glass for a majority of possessions. Rather, Ellison, with his lack of awareness,  fails to anticipate where the missed shot will go and, due to his extreme lack of hustle, fails to put himself in position to even be able to make a play on them.  Hoslacl of effort is apparent when he goes under every screeen. Nobody wants to fight ober screens, yet Mussini, Ponds, Lovett, and Bash still do a high % of the time. Anyone can stand straight up and jump a
passing lane...that is not taxing on anyone's body.

Somebody tweeted a picture of Hoyas gear being sold at the Garden to AD Goff. Goff responded that he is frustrated with that and this is one of many issues that he's working on.He also told the fan to enjoy the win and not get too wrapped up in that now.

...It's just great to have Administration and coaches that care  about the program again. Give it a few more years and I really do think that SJU will be a force to be reckoned with, and a motivated fan base to cheer the team on.

Somebody tweeted a picture of Hoyas gear being sold at the Garden to AD Goff. Goff responded that he is frustrated with that and this is one of many issues that he's working on.He also told the fan to enjoy the win and not get too wrapped up in that now.

...It's just great to have Administration and coaches that care  about the program again. Give it a few more years and I really do think that SJU will be a force to be reckoned with, and a motivated fan base to cheer the team on.

I really liked that as well. He seems to be focusing on big picture while not ignoring the little things that make a big difference. MSG selling hoyas stuff is shameful.

Quote from: Dave on February 26, 2017, 08:50:59 PM

Quote from: Marillac on February 26, 2017, 04:02:15 PM

Malik Ellison has failed to get a single offensive rebound 10 times in the last 12 games. That is the the greatest hustle stat out there. Case closed.

I'm not aware of all the philosophies of team but more times than not the 3 isn't crashing offensive glass in most schemes. They are getting their asses back on transition defense but hey you are right in the #'s you pointed out.

Josh Hart has never had less than 62 offensive boards playing the three for Nova--even as a backup. He also averages 6.7 boards per game the last last two years. Lavor Postell averaged 6.9 boards as a senior and half of those were offensive. There is no scheme in basketball where the SF abandons the offensive glass for a majority of possessions. Rather, Ellison, with his lack of awareness,  fails to anticipate where the missed shot will go and, due to his extreme lack of hustle, fails to put himself in position to even be able to make a play on them.  Hoslacl of effort is apparent when he goes under every screeen. Nobody wants to fight ober screens, yet Mussini, Ponds, Lovett, and Bash still do a high % of the time. Anyone can stand straight up and jump a
passing lane...that is not taxing on anyone's body.

Well Hart is leading rebounder of his team. Not to mention Jenkins, Paschall, and Bridges rebounding are pretty dreadful on the boards. Not exactly a true comparison here.

I've been fortunate enough to listen to about a hundred coaches lectures from Self to Van Gundy to Calipari to Izzo to Pitino. All of them have differing thoughts on transition defense. Some guys crash all in, some guys crash 4/5, some guys crash 3/4/5.

Could Ellison rebound at a higher rate? I'm with you, he can. I think there needs to be more hunger there but offensively I'm not pressing on it. Ellison needs to eliminate 1-2 bonehead plays a game. The turnover followed by foul and pick 6 int passes (turnover for easy fast break layup). The occasional whoops my foot was out of bounds is another irk'er too.

I see Ellison go strong with left into paint, shield the ball with his body, and go up for an easy short J or layup. That's hard to stop. I'd like to see him actually get post up touches. I think he can shoot over most guards and is a good enough passer where that is a matchup problem.

Either way Ellison is tremendous depth. He can carry the ball handling duties in spot minutes, he can play 1-3, he can be a tough look defensively with length, and he can catch hot and be a spark. If he is your 3,4,5th guard next year as a junior that's a hell of a lot better than what any team in conference has.

I see Ellison go strong with left into paint, shield the ball with his body, and go up for an easy short J or layup. That's hard to stop. I'd like to see him actually get post up touches. I think he can shoot over most guards and is a good enough passer where that is a matchup problem.

Either way Ellison is tremendous depth. He can carry the ball handling duties in spot minutes, he can play 1-3, he can be a tough look defensively with length, and he can catch hot and be a spark. If he is your 3,4,5th guard next year as a junior that's a hell of a lot better than what any team in conference has.

Your fascination with Ellison is very perplexing. Ellison is not hard to stop at all. He moves in slow motion whenever he drives to the rim. Sure, sometimes he's able to to use his frame to make a driving layup if somehow a guy slower than him is guarding him, but that's rare. I don't really remember him ever driving into the lane and pulling up for a short jumper. If he was able to drive into the lane for layups and short J's that are "hard to stop" he'd be making more than 47% of his 2 point attempts.

Ellison carrying the ball handling duties in spot minutes is asking for trouble. He doesn't actually run the offense and the more the ball is in his hands the higher chance he'll turn it over. His turnover rate is super high for a guy that doesn't have the ball in his hands all that much.

You want to see him get post up touches? Based on what? Has he ever shown the ability to make a move with his back to the basket or pass out of the post? Maybe he can, but he's never been put in that position in a game so there's no way to be confident in that. If he's been doing it successfully in practice then the staff would have tried it in a game as well. I personally don't trust him shooting open shots, let alone shots over smaller defenders. For every decent pass he would make out of the post he would make two that go for layups on the other end. He'd also dribble the ball off of his foot an inordinate amount of times.

Having good individual defenders is ideal, however good defensive teams are good because they play as a TEAM. One of my biggest gripes with Ellison is his help defense, or lack thereof. His weak side rotation is terrible. He shows no interest in rotating especially if that would mean him mixing it up down low. He wants no part of it. If by chance he happens to stumble into position, Its as if he turns into a spectator and watches the game. Given our lack of size I don't believe Mullin has a choice but to play him, but next year I hope should be a different story. 

Let's be honest. Mullin and Richmond never played defense in their lives so how the heck can they teach it? We need a defensive asst coach next season even if one of the assts now has to be let go to make room. A tough experienced retired college coach who was a defensive specialist is needed to teach Mullin and the players the basics of man to man , zone etc. This team is too interested in offensive highlights and not working on the other end of the floor. Their lazy, too soft and need their asses chewed out in practice. If you watch game replays in slow motion one or two players are usually just "watching" the game when on defense. It's almost funny but sad. Also,as Bobby Knight used to say, an obsession with blocking shots can be "fools gold" because most times the player is putting himself out of position to rebound and not able to block out opposing players.

“His versatility is key,” Mullin said. “Defensively, he’s really good on the ball. We’re trying to get him locked in when the ball’s away from him.

Chris Mullin on Malik Ellison - Ny Post 11/12/16

“His versatility is key,” Mullin said. “Defensively, he’s really good on the ball. We’re trying to get him locked in when the ball’s away from him.

Chris Mullin on Malik Ellison - Ny Post 11/12/16

The next time a coach says "this guy sucks" about one of his players will be the first time

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 27, 2017, 06:08:52 PM

“His versatility is key,” Mullin said. “Defensively, he’s really good on the ball. We’re trying to get him locked in when the ball’s away from him.

Chris Mullin on Malik Ellison - Ny Post 11/12/16

The next time a coach says "this guy sucks" about one of his players will be the first time

It's Mullin not Hollywood.  He's been far more guarded with praise and verbiage.

Quote from: Dave on February 27, 2017, 01:59:27 PM

I see Ellison go strong with left into paint, shield the ball with his body, and go up for an easy short J or layup. That's hard to stop. I'd like to see him actually get post up touches. I think he can shoot over most guards and is a good enough passer where that is a matchup problem.

Either way Ellison is tremendous depth. He can carry the ball handling duties in spot minutes, he can play 1-3, he can be a tough look defensively with length, and he can catch hot and be a spark. If he is your 3,4,5th guard next year as a junior that's a hell of a lot better than what any team in conference has.

Your fascination with Ellison is very perplexing. Ellison is not hard to stop at all. He moves in slow motion whenever he drives to the rim. Sure, sometimes he's able to to use his frame to make a driving layup if somehow a guy slower than him is guarding him, but that's rare. I don't really remember him ever driving into the lane and pulling up for a short jumper. If he was able to drive into the lane for layups and short J's that are "hard to stop" he'd be making more than 47% of his 2 point attempts.

Ellison carrying the ball handling duties in spot minutes is asking for trouble. He doesn't actually run the offense and the more the ball is in his hands the higher chance he'll turn it over. His turnover rate is super high for a guy that doesn't have the ball in his hands all that much.

You want to see him get post up touches? Based on what? Has he ever shown the ability to make a move with his back to the basket or pass out of the post? Maybe he can, but he's never been put in that position in a game so there's no way to be confident in that. If he's been doing it successfully in practice then the staff would have tried it in a game as well. I personally don't trust him shooting open shots, let alone shots over smaller defenders. For every decent pass he would make out of the post he would make two that go for layups on the other end. He'd also dribble the ball off of his foot an inordinate amount of times.

I think the fascination is on your end as some others. I'm merely offering a counter point.

All players have strengths and weaknesses and every coach's job is to minimize weakness and maximize strength. Ellison isn't a perfect player and far from it but he possesses a lot of tools that are strengths and can be turned into strengths.

I like what Ellison brings to the table and think he is an important piece of the process.

I think a lot of opinion is sometimes game to game but I'm trying to look at whole body of work over the season.

btw I think a lot of same stuff can apply to Mussini, Yakwe, Bash, etc. They all have ups and down, shortcomings, and things they do really well. We have a good blend of talent and more upside than most teams in conference.

Quote from: goredmen on February 27, 2017, 04:22:31 PM

Quote from: Dave on February 27, 2017, 01:59:27 PM

I see Ellison go strong with left into paint, shield the ball with his body, and go up for an easy short J or layup. That's hard to stop. I'd like to see him actually get post up touches. I think he can shoot over most guards and is a good enough passer where that is a matchup problem.

Either way Ellison is tremendous depth. He can carry the ball handling duties in spot minutes, he can play 1-3, he can be a tough look defensively with length, and he can catch hot and be a spark. If he is your 3,4,5th guard next year as a junior that's a hell of a lot better than what any team in conference has.

Your fascination with Ellison is very perplexing. Ellison is not hard to stop at all. He moves in slow motion whenever he drives to the rim. Sure, sometimes he's able to to use his frame to make a driving layup if somehow a guy slower than him is guarding him, but that's rare. I don't really remember him ever driving into the lane and pulling up for a short jumper. If he was able to drive into the lane for layups and short J's that are "hard to stop" he'd be making more than 47% of his 2 point attempts.

Ellison carrying the ball handling duties in spot minutes is asking for trouble. He doesn't actually run the offense and the more the ball is in his hands the higher chance he'll turn it over. His turnover rate is super high for a guy that doesn't have the ball in his hands all that much.

You want to see him get post up touches? Based on what? Has he ever shown the ability to make a move with his back to the basket or pass out of the post? Maybe he can, but he's never been put in that position in a game so there's no way to be confident in that. If he's been doing it successfully in practice then the staff would have tried it in a game as well. I personally don't trust him shooting open shots, let alone shots over smaller defenders. For every decent pass he would make out of the post he would make two that go for layups on the other end. He'd also dribble the ball off of his foot an inordinate amount of times.

I think the fascination is on your end as some others. I'm merely offering a counter point.

All players have strengths and weaknesses and every coach's job is to minimize weakness and maximize strength. Ellison isn't a perfect player and far from it but he possesses a lot of tools that are strengths and can be turned into strengths.

I like what Ellison brings to the table and think he is an important piece of the process.

I think a lot of opinion is sometimes game to game but I'm trying to look at whole body of work over the season.

btw I think a lot of same stuff can apply to Mussini, Yakwe, Bash, etc. They all have ups and down, shortcomings, and things they do really well. We have a good blend of talent and more upside than most teams in conference.

FWIW I get as frustrated with Ellison as anyone but I also agree wholeheartedly with Dave.  He is far from perfect but overall (not necessarily in season) progress has been made and as he continues to work he will continue to be a valuable part of our team. Ellison as a 10-20 min guard off the bench as a junior is a luxury not many teams have. 

Quote from: goredmen on February 27, 2017, 04:22:31 PM

Quote from: Dave on February 27, 2017, 01:59:27 PM

I see Ellison go strong with left into paint, shield the ball with his body, and go up for an easy short J or layup. That's hard to stop. I'd like to see him actually get post up touches. I think he can shoot over most guards and is a good enough passer where that is a matchup problem.

Either way Ellison is tremendous depth. He can carry the ball handling duties in spot minutes, he can play 1-3, he can be a tough look defensively with length, and he can catch hot and be a spark. If he is your 3,4,5th guard next year as a junior that's a hell of a lot better than what any team in conference has.

Your fascination with Ellison is very perplexing. Ellison is not hard to stop at all. He moves in slow motion whenever he drives to the rim. Sure, sometimes he's able to to use his frame to make a driving layup if somehow a guy slower than him is guarding him, but that's rare. I don't really remember him ever driving into the lane and pulling up for a short jumper. If he was able to drive into the lane for layups and short J's that are "hard to stop" he'd be making more than 47% of his 2 point attempts.

Ellison carrying the ball handling duties in spot minutes is asking for trouble. He doesn't actually run the offense and the more the ball is in his hands the higher chance he'll turn it over. His turnover rate is super high for a guy that doesn't have the ball in his hands all that much.

You want to see him get post up touches? Based on what? Has he ever shown the ability to make a move with his back to the basket or pass out of the post? Maybe he can, but he's never been put in that position in a game so there's no way to be confident in that. If he's been doing it successfully in practice then the staff would have tried it in a game as well. I personally don't trust him shooting open shots, let alone shots over smaller defenders. For every decent pass he would make out of the post he would make two that go for layups on the other end. He'd also dribble the ball off of his foot an inordinate amount of times.

I think the fascination is on your end as some others. I'm merely offering a counter point.

All players have strengths and weaknesses and every coach's job is to minimize weakness and maximize strength. Ellison isn't a perfect player and far from it but he possesses a lot of tools that are strengths and can be turned into strengths.

I like what Ellison brings to the table and think he is an important piece of the process.

I think a lot of opinion is sometimes game to game but I'm trying to look at whole body of work over the season.

btw I think a lot of same stuff can apply to Mussini, Yakwe, Bash, etc. They all have ups and down, shortcomings, and things they do really well. We have a good blend of talent and more upside than most teams in conference.

Agreed. If we stay whole going into next year then Ellison will probably only play 10-15 minutes a night and can probably find a nice role for himself off the bench.