Game 29: Georgetown

Quote from: goredmen on February 27, 2017, 04:22:31 PM

Quote from: Dave on February 27, 2017, 01:59:27 PM

I see Ellison go strong with left into paint, shield the ball with his body, and go up for an easy short J or layup. That's hard to stop. I'd like to see him actually get post up touches. I think he can shoot over most guards and is a good enough passer where that is a matchup problem.

Either way Ellison is tremendous depth. He can carry the ball handling duties in spot minutes, he can play 1-3, he can be a tough look defensively with length, and he can catch hot and be a spark. If he is your 3,4,5th guard next year as a junior that's a hell of a lot better than what any team in conference has.

Your fascination with Ellison is very perplexing. Ellison is not hard to stop at all. He moves in slow motion whenever he drives to the rim. Sure, sometimes he's able to to use his frame to make a driving layup if somehow a guy slower than him is guarding him, but that's rare. I don't really remember him ever driving into the lane and pulling up for a short jumper. If he was able to drive into the lane for layups and short J's that are "hard to stop" he'd be making more than 47% of his 2 point attempts.

Ellison carrying the ball handling duties in spot minutes is asking for trouble. He doesn't actually run the offense and the more the ball is in his hands the higher chance he'll turn it over. His turnover rate is super high for a guy that doesn't have the ball in his hands all that much.

You want to see him get post up touches? Based on what? Has he ever shown the ability to make a move with his back to the basket or pass out of the post? Maybe he can, but he's never been put in that position in a game so there's no way to be confident in that. If he's been doing it successfully in practice then the staff would have tried it in a game as well. I personally don't trust him shooting open shots, let alone shots over smaller defenders. For every decent pass he would make out of the post he would make two that go for layups on the other end. He'd also dribble the ball off of his foot an inordinate amount of times.

I think the fascination is on your end as some others. I'm merely offering a counter point.

All players have strengths and weaknesses and every coach's job is to minimize weakness and maximize strength. Ellison isn't a perfect player and far from it but he possesses a lot of tools that are strengths and can be turned into strengths.

I like what Ellison brings to the table and think he is an important piece of the process.

I think a lot of opinion is sometimes game to game but I'm trying to look at whole body of work over the season.

btw I think a lot of same stuff can apply to Mussini, Yakwe, Bash, etc. They all have ups and down, shortcomings, and things they do really well. We have a good blend of talent and more upside than most teams in conference.

Obviously every player has their strengths and weaknesses but it seems that Ellison's strengths are far too hidden while his weaknesses are evident nearly constantly. Perhaps the blame does lie with Mullin and the staff as I think they do a very poor job of getting Ahmed to play to his strengths but the only way to stop Ellison's pick 6 passes, dribbling off his foot and dumb fouls is to keep him on the bench

Agreed. If we stay whole going into next year then Ellison will probably only play 10-15 minutes a night and can probably find a nice role for himself off the bench.

Not many kids stick around when they are looking at going from 25 minutes per game to 10-15

I think its easy to look at Ellison and say he is a great fit for this team -- a 6'6 guard who can do a little bit of everything and can help offset our small backcourt. In reality I think he fits poorly. His motor and decision making are a step below the rest of our core guys and im pretty sure Ellison is an anagram for sideline without the D. Fitting.  Most players step out of bounds less times in a lifetime.

I think most of us would like to have him back as a 15 minute-ish a game player next year but I'm not sure he would.

Quote from: goredmen on February 27, 2017, 04:22:31 PM

Quote from: Dave on February 27, 2017, 01:59:27 PM

I see Ellison go strong with left into paint, shield the ball with his body, and go up for an easy short J or layup. That's hard to stop. I'd like to see him actually get post up touches. I think he can shoot over most guards and is a good enough passer where that is a matchup problem.

Either way Ellison is tremendous depth. He can carry the ball handling duties in spot minutes, he can play 1-3, he can be a tough look defensively with length, and he can catch hot and be a spark. If he is your 3,4,5th guard next year as a junior that's a hell of a lot better than what any team in conference has.

Your fascination with Ellison is very perplexing. Ellison is not hard to stop at all. He moves in slow motion whenever he drives to the rim. Sure, sometimes he's able to to use his frame to make a driving layup if somehow a guy slower than him is guarding him, but that's rare. I don't really remember him ever driving into the lane and pulling up for a short jumper. If he was able to drive into the lane for layups and short J's that are "hard to stop" he'd be making more than 47% of his 2 point attempts.

Ellison carrying the ball handling duties in spot minutes is asking for trouble. He doesn't actually run the offense and the more the ball is in his hands the higher chance he'll turn it over. His turnover rate is super high for a guy that doesn't have the ball in his hands all that much.

You want to see him get post up touches? Based on what? Has he ever shown the ability to make a move with his back to the basket or pass out of the post? Maybe he can, but he's never been put in that position in a game so there's no way to be confident in that. If he's been doing it successfully in practice then the staff would have tried it in a game as well. I personally don't trust him shooting open shots, let alone shots over smaller defenders. For every decent pass he would make out of the post he would make two that go for layups on the other end. He'd also dribble the ball off of his foot an inordinate amount of times.

I think the fascination is on your end as some others. I'm merely offering a counter point.

That is not "merely" what you did, though. You twice said that Ellison was the best PG on our roster. Here is one comment from you:  "For the record Ponds is not a PG. He's a SG who can handle. I think Ellison long term is best PG on the team right now and that includes LoVett."
http://johnnyjungle.com/forum/index.php?topic=9586.80

Like many others, I found that comment nearly seizure-inducing. When you take into account those comments, it is very understandable why some frustrated posters take issues with your continued defense of Ellison. 

Quote from: Dave on February 27, 2017, 09:44:53 PM

Quote from: goredmen on February 27, 2017, 04:22:31 PM

Quote from: Dave on February 27, 2017, 01:59:27 PM

I see Ellison go strong with left into paint, shield the ball with his body, and go up for an easy short J or layup. That's hard to stop. I'd like to see him actually get post up touches. I think he can shoot over most guards and is a good enough passer where that is a matchup problem.

Either way Ellison is tremendous depth. He can carry the ball handling duties in spot minutes, he can play 1-3, he can be a tough look defensively with length, and he can catch hot and be a spark. If he is your 3,4,5th guard next year as a junior that's a hell of a lot better than what any team in conference has.

Your fascination with Ellison is very perplexing. Ellison is not hard to stop at all. He moves in slow motion whenever he drives to the rim. Sure, sometimes he's able to to use his frame to make a driving layup if somehow a guy slower than him is guarding him, but that's rare. I don't really remember him ever driving into the lane and pulling up for a short jumper. If he was able to drive into the lane for layups and short J's that are "hard to stop" he'd be making more than 47% of his 2 point attempts.

Ellison carrying the ball handling duties in spot minutes is asking for trouble. He doesn't actually run the offense and the more the ball is in his hands the higher chance he'll turn it over. His turnover rate is super high for a guy that doesn't have the ball in his hands all that much.

You want to see him get post up touches? Based on what? Has he ever shown the ability to make a move with his back to the basket or pass out of the post? Maybe he can, but he's never been put in that position in a game so there's no way to be confident in that. If he's been doing it successfully in practice then the staff would have tried it in a game as well. I personally don't trust him shooting open shots, let alone shots over smaller defenders. For every decent pass he would make out of the post he would make two that go for layups on the other end. He'd also dribble the ball off of his foot an inordinate amount of times.

I think the fascination is on your end as some others. I'm merely offering a counter point.

All players have strengths and weaknesses and every coach's job is to minimize weakness and maximize strength. Ellison isn't a perfect player and far from it but he possesses a lot of tools that are strengths and can be turned into strengths.

I like what Ellison brings to the table and think he is an important piece of the process.

I think a lot of opinion is sometimes game to game but I'm trying to look at whole body of work over the season.

btw I think a lot of same stuff can apply to Mussini, Yakwe, Bash, etc. They all have ups and down, shortcomings, and things they do really well. We have a good blend of talent and more upside than most teams in conference.

FWIW I get as frustrated with Ellison as anyone but I also agree wholeheartedly with Dave.  He is far from perfect but overall (not necessarily in season) progress has been made and as he continues to work he will continue to be a valuable part of our team. Ellison as a 10-20 min guard off the bench as a junior is a luxury not many teams have. 

Especially not the teams that finish at or near the top of the conference. In fact maybe that is why they finish that high.

The Ellison hate is ridiculous. He's a sophomore who's not playing great. That's it. This whole "worst player I've ever seen at SJU" or "worst defender on the team" stuff is just weird. I see a lot of potential with him and while he's not playing great he still makes some good passes, has good size, and a developing skillset that could make him a key role player in the next two years for us.

I think his biggest issue right now is confidence.

The Ellison hate is ridiculous. He's a sophomore who's not playing great. That's it. This whole "worst player I've ever seen at SJU" or "worst defender on the team" stuff is just weird. I see a lot of potential with him and while he's not playing great he still makes some good passes, has good size, and a developing skillset that could make him a key role player in the next two years for us.

I think his biggest issue right now is confidence.

Like I've said before, I don't Mind Ellison. He needs to play smarter, stop making dumb mistakes at the worst possible times. Also, I do not like seeing him in at the end of a close game. If we are contenders next year and he continues to make bad mental plays, I expect him to be at the end of the bench

Quote from: redstorm212 on February 28, 2017, 01:31:38 PM

The Ellison hate is ridiculous. He's a sophomore who's not playing great. That's it. This whole "worst player I've ever seen at SJU" or "worst defender on the team" stuff is just weird. I see a lot of potential with him and while he's not playing great he still makes some good passes, has good size, and a developing skillset that could make him a key role player in the next two years for us.

I think his biggest issue right now is confidence.

Like I've said before, I don't Mind Ellison. He needs to play smarter, stop making dumb mistakes at the worst possible times. Also, I do not like seeing him in at the end of a close game. If we are contenders next year and he continues to make bad mental plays, I expect him to be at the end of the bench

Generally, as players get more experience and mature, they do play smarter, and mental mistakes become less frequent. I think he's shown flashes of being a stat sheet stuffer kind of player if he can play with more confidence and play smarter. The physical tools and skillset are there.

Ellison's like a nice car that's not being driven properly. It has all the bells and whistles but the driver sucks.

The only thing he really brings to the table right now is great size. His intangibles suck. If Simon comes in next year and does what he's supposed to, then Ellison slides down the depth chart IMO.

I'm still holding out hope for him but if he doesn't start off next season strong then I have no problem seeing him ride the pine or leaving.

Unless we have a major defection. W the addition of Simon and Clarlk, Mullins options will be much greater next year. If Ellison doesn't step up, he will be seeing more time on the bench.

The Ellison hate is ridiculous. He's a sophomore who's not playing great. That's it. This whole "worst player I've ever seen at SJU" or "worst defender on the team" stuff is just weird. I see a lot of potential with him and while he's not playing great he still makes some good passes, has good size, and a developing skillset that could make him a key role player in the next two years for us.

I think his biggest issue right now is confidence.

There is no comparing your two statements: "worst player I've ever seen at SJU" and "worst defender in the team." Somebody on this roster has to be the worst defender on the team, but Ellison is clearly not the worst player to ever play for St. John's. Ellison is a very poor defender and is probably right there with Amar for worst defender on the team.

Quote from: redstorm212 on February 28, 2017, 01:31:38 PM

The Ellison hate is ridiculous. He's a sophomore who's not playing great. That's it. This whole "worst player I've ever seen at SJU" or "worst defender on the team" stuff is just weird. I see a lot of potential with him and while he's not playing great he still makes some good passes, has good size, and a developing skillset that could make him a key role player in the next two years for us.

I think his biggest issue right now is confidence.

There is no comparing your two statements: "worst player I've ever seen at SJU" and "worst defender in the team." Somebody on this roster has to be the worst defender on the team, but Ellison is clearly not the worst player to ever play for St. John's. Ellison is a very poor defender and is probably right there with Amar for worst defender on the team.

Have you seen Alibegovic play defense? Comparing the two defensively is an insult to Ellison.

Quote from: Marillac on February 28, 2017, 02:29:19 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on February 28, 2017, 01:31:38 PM

The Ellison hate is ridiculous. He's a sophomore who's not playing great. That's it. This whole "worst player I've ever seen at SJU" or "worst defender on the team" stuff is just weird. I see a lot of potential with him and while he's not playing great he still makes some good passes, has good size, and a developing skillset that could make him a key role player in the next two years for us.

I think his biggest issue right now is confidence.

There is no comparing your two statements: "worst player I've ever seen at SJU" and "worst defender in the team." Somebody on this roster has to be the worst defender on the team, but Ellison is clearly not the worst player to ever play for St. John's. Ellison is a very poor defender and is probably right there with Amar for worst defender on the team.

Have you seen Alibegovic play defense? Comparing the two defensively is an insult to Ellison.

I haven't seen either play defense. That is the problem.

The basic facts are that Ellison needs to play better next year to have playing time, if not he will be sitting on the bench. He has had the tools to be great, but he has to bring all together to make it so.

The question for next year is can he do it?

Does that sum everything up?

Can we go back to the game and talk about the great victory?...Because we actually did win.

Redstorm212: I never said Ellison was the worst player to ever play at St. John's. I said he was the worst player getting 25 minutes a game to ever play at St. John's. There is a difference and, I stand by that statement.

Ellison is a very poor defender and is probably right there with Amar for worst defender on the team.

He's the best of the 4 guards.  I rewatched the Gtown game and Sham displayed an indifference to defending that was disturbing.  The coaching staff also disagrees with you.

Quote from: Marillac on February 28, 2017, 02:29:19 PM

Ellison is a very poor defender and is probably right there with Amar for worst defender on the team.

He's the best of the 4 guards.  I rewatched the Gtown game and Sham displayed an indifference to defending that was disturbing.  The coaching staff also disagrees with you.

I would say, he and Mussini are the best of the group.  Some games one may look better than the other, but I'd give the slight edge to Ellison.  Outside of garnering steals, Ponds and LoVett are quite lackadaisical when it comes to defense.  I don't wanna hear anything about their size, as their size doesn't have anything to do with staying in front of the offensive player.  There are times they don't even look like they're trying. 

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 28, 2017, 03:41:55 PM

Quote from: Marillac on February 28, 2017, 02:29:19 PM

Ellison is a very poor defender and is probably right there with Amar for worst defender on the team.

He's the best of the 4 guards.  I rewatched the Gtown game and Sham displayed an indifference to defending that was disturbing.  The coaching staff also disagrees with you.

I would say, he and Mussini are the best of the group.  Some games one may look better than the other, but I'd give the slight edge to Ellison.  Outside of garnering steals, Ponds and LoVett are quite lackadaisical when it comes to defense.  I don't wanna hear anything about their size, as their size doesn't have anything to do with staying in front of the offensive player.  There are times they don't even look like they're trying. 

Been saying this for awhile. Lovett and Ponds give little effort on d, sick and tired of hearing that they are freshman etc. Its the end of the year, they've logged a ton of minutes.  Owens is a leading shot blocker because our guards don't and won't defend

Quote from: mjdinkins on February 28, 2017, 04:41:28 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 28, 2017, 03:41:55 PM

Quote from: Marillac on February 28, 2017, 02:29:19 PM

Ellison is a very poor defender and is probably right there with Amar for worst defender on the team.

He's the best of the 4 guards.  I rewatched the Gtown game and Sham displayed an indifference to defending that was disturbing.  The coaching staff also disagrees with you.

I would say, he and Mussini are the best of the group.  Some games one may look better than the other, but I'd give the slight edge to Ellison.  Outside of garnering steals, Ponds and LoVett are quite lackadaisical when it comes to defense.  I don't wanna hear anything about their size, as their size doesn't have anything to do with staying in front of the offensive player.  There are times they don't even look like they're trying. 

Been saying this for awhile. Lovett and Ponds give little effort on d, sick and tired of hearing that they are freshman etc. Its the end of the year, they've logged a ton of minutes.  Owens is a leading shot blocker because our guards don't and won't defend

I think like most aspects of the team its been inconsistent. I've seen stretches where Lovett and Ponds have been all over the ball and jumping passing lanes. Other times it's slow close outs and unnecessary gambles which results in blow bys.

I think it's less "little effort" and more "inconsistent effort" and do think that consistency develops with maturity. There are things these guys got away with in high school that doesn't fly in college. However I agree it's one of those things you don't want to make excuses for and should be corrected sooner than later.

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 28, 2017, 03:41:55 PM

Quote from: Marillac on February 28, 2017, 02:29:19 PM

Ellison is a very poor defender and is probably right there with Amar for worst defender on the team.

He's the best of the 4 guards.  I rewatched the Gtown game and Sham displayed an indifference to defending that was disturbing.  The coaching staff also disagrees with you.

I would say, he and Mussini are the best of the group.  Some games one may look better than the other, but I'd give the slight edge to Ellison.  Outside of garnering steals, Ponds and LoVett are quite lackadaisical when it comes to defense.  I don't wanna hear anything about their size, as their size doesn't have anything to do with staying in front of the offensive player.  There are times they don't even look like they're trying. 

Yea sometimes those guys are like cornerbacks who always try to jump routes. Sometimes they get a pick 6 but others they let up 6. Stat lines look good with the steals but don't tell the whole story.

I do think Ponds + Lovett have elite hand speed defensively. In time and with real buy in they can be very good defenders.

For Lovett this is first time he's ever played in structured environment. None of his travel or school teams had real coaching. It was pure freestyle. I've actually been impressed with how well the staff has reined him in.