Game 30: @ Creighton

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Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #140 on: February 28, 2017, 10:46:35 PM »
I think we'll win on Saturday to finish up at 8-10 in the conference.  I still think the team underachieved this season.  This should've been an NIT team at worse. 

Before the season started, I felt this would be a 17-win team that would finish around 6th or 7th in the conference and receive an NIT bid.  There are some things to look forward to next season, but there are things that need to be cleaned up or we'll be having a similar discussion a year from now.

I am with  you.  Had the same expectations.  It's the coaching.  They are learning on the job just as much as their frosh and reshirt frosh.  Hopefully the growth process kicks in next year or else we are just in for a repeat of Lavin's output in years 2 thru 5

This feels nothing to me like lavins 2-5. I feel like we are 2-3 pieces away + a year of maturation from being a legitimate top 3 team in the BE. Sign a big man this summer and we may have all we need.

Say what you will, but there was postseason tournaments throughout Lavin's duration.  But, that's in the past.

This offseason is important, as well, due to possible defections.  We need some continuity or we'll end up spinning our wheels.  I just don't see resolve in signing this player or that player when we haven't shown consistent discipline or capabilities to play defense.

I am not discrediting lavin's success I just never felt like those team were poised to take off. Felt more like a team sputtering towards the finish line every year. For instance, Lavins 3rd year team with Dlo as a soph, talent wise I think they were pretty comparable to this years team and probably out performed them overall as well (NIT win). However I think this team has showed more promise and potential for the future and more fun to watch.

I'm all for "fun to watch," as I enjoy being entertained.  But, winning fits in there somewhere, too.  There is potential, as I stated earlier, but there are also things that needs to be cleaned up or we'll be discussing these topics next season.

Poison

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Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #141 on: February 28, 2017, 10:48:35 PM »
I think we'll win on Saturday to finish up at 8-10 in the conference.  I still think the team underachieved this season.  This should've been an NIT team at worse. 

Before the season started, I felt this would be a 17-win team that would finish around 6th or 7th in the conference and receive an NIT bid.  There are some things to look forward to next season, but there are things that need to be cleaned up or we'll be having a similar discussion a year from now.

I am with  you.  Had the same expectations.  It's the coaching.  They are learning on the job just as much as their frosh and reshirt frosh.  Hopefully the growth process kicks in next year or else we are just in for a repeat of Lavin's output in years 2 thru 5

This feels nothing to me like lavins 2-5. I feel like we are 2-3 pieces away + a year of maturation from being a legitimate top 3 team in the BE. Sign a big man this summer and we may have all we need.

Say what you will, but there was postseason tournaments throughout Lavin's duration.  But, that's in the past.

This offseason is important, as well, due to possible defections.  We need some continuity or we'll end up spinning our wheels.  I just don't see resolve in signing this player or that player when we haven't shown consistent discipline or capabilities to play defense.

I am not discrediting lavin's success I just never felt like those team were poised to take off. Felt more like a team sputtering towards the finish line every year. For instance, Lavins 3rd year team with Dlo as a soph, talent wise I think they were pretty comparable to this years team and probably out performed them overall as well (NIT win). However I think this team has showed more promise and potential for the future and more fun to watch.

Lavin had more balanced rosters, better athletes and defenders but not better shooters/scorers.
There isn't one player on our current team who boxes out. If they just boxed out tonight, and improved in no other area, this game goes down to the wire. We have to hustle to score every single point, but Creighton gets free baskets because just don't pay attention.

Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #142 on: February 28, 2017, 10:51:04 PM »
Can we leave Ellison in Omaha hoping he'll transfer to nearby Nebraska? Three horrible fouls in the bonus. This kid is just an idiot.

I think this is the problem is that dudes blow up on Ellison mistakes. Ponds made some frustration and bad fouls today too. No player is gonna play perfectly every single play.

The habitual foul after the turnover by Ellison is very frustrating. It's predictable it's almost laughable. He's still an important cog to the team's future success.

There are stretches where almost all our guys look good and others where they look horrid. That's a young team. I know it's tiring rhetoric but it's true. 

Ponds is a true freshman who has to carry his entire team. His mistakes seem reasonable to me given his absurd minutes and responsibilities. He also has incredible awareness and a scary high basketball basketball IQ. Ellison is clueless. Creighton was inviting the pass to Yakwe for the hack-a-Yak late after his miss at the line and Ellison fed him deep down low. That is an awful decision late in any game.

Ponds is on another level. That's obvious and documented. You're not gonna get a team filled with Ponds unless you're UK, Kansas, Duke, etc.
Follow Johnny Jungle on Twitter at @Johnny_Jungle

Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #143 on: February 28, 2017, 10:51:51 PM »
I think we'll win on Saturday to finish up at 8-10 in the conference.  I still think the team underachieved this season.  This should've been an NIT team at worse. 

Before the season started, I felt this would be a 17-win team that would finish around 6th or 7th in the conference and receive an NIT bid.  There are some things to look forward to next season, but there are things that need to be cleaned up or we'll be having a similar discussion a year from now.

I am with  you.  Had the same expectations.  It's the coaching.  They are learning on the job just as much as their frosh and reshirt frosh.  Hopefully the growth process kicks in next year or else we are just in for a repeat of Lavin's output in years 2 thru 5

This feels nothing to me like lavins 2-5. I feel like we are 2-3 pieces away + a year of maturation from being a legitimate top 3 team in the BE. Sign a big man this summer and we may have all we need.

I am incredibly optimistic. Swap out Ellison for a touted defender and point-forward in Simon. Beef up with Clark. Put 25 lbs in Owens. Get the big second year out of Bash. Maybe add a grad transfer. Let Williams heal and get conditioned...boom.

This optimism is realism.
Follow Johnny Jungle on Twitter at @Johnny_Jungle

Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #144 on: February 28, 2017, 10:58:16 PM »
I think we'll win on Saturday to finish up at 8-10 in the conference.  I still think the team underachieved this season.  This should've been an NIT team at worse. 

Before the season started, I felt this would be a 17-win team that would finish around 6th or 7th in the conference and receive an NIT bid.  There are some things to look forward to next season, but there are things that need to be cleaned up or we'll be having a similar discussion a year from now.

I am with  you.  Had the same expectations.  It's the coaching.  They are learning on the job just as much as their frosh and reshirt frosh.  Hopefully the growth process kicks in next year or else we are just in for a repeat of Lavin's output in years 2 thru 5

This feels nothing to me like lavins 2-5. I feel like we are 2-3 pieces away + a year of maturation from being a legitimate top 3 team in the BE. Sign a big man this summer and we may have all we need.

Say what you will, but there was postseason tournaments throughout Lavin's duration.  But, that's in the past.

This offseason is important, as well, due to possible defections.  We need some continuity or we'll end up spinning our wheels.  I just don't see resolve in signing this player or that player when we haven't shown consistent discipline or capabilities to play defense.

I am not discrediting lavin's success I just never felt like those team were poised to take off. Felt more like a team sputtering towards the finish line every year. For instance, Lavins 3rd year team with Dlo as a soph, talent wise I think they were pretty comparable to this years team and probably out performed them overall as well (NIT win). However I think this team has showed more promise and potential for the future and more fun to watch.

Lavin had more balanced rosters, better athletes and defenders but not better shooters/scorers.
There isn't one player on our current team who boxes out. If they just boxed out tonight, and improved in no other area, this game goes down to the wire. We have to hustle to score every single point, but Creighton gets free baskets because just don't pay attention.

Lavin never had balance. That was his issue. Among some other things. This team now has more balance than Lavs 3rd year team whos only bigs were freshmen Jakar Obekpa  and CJ.
*wipes ketchup from his eyes* - I guess Heinz sight isn’t 20/20.

Poison

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Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #145 on: February 28, 2017, 11:07:48 PM »
I think we'll win on Saturday to finish up at 8-10 in the conference.  I still think the team underachieved this season.  This should've been an NIT team at worse. 

Before the season started, I felt this would be a 17-win team that would finish around 6th or 7th in the conference and receive an NIT bid.  There are some things to look forward to next season, but there are things that need to be cleaned up or we'll be having a similar discussion a year from now.

I am with  you.  Had the same expectations.  It's the coaching.  They are learning on the job just as much as their frosh and reshirt frosh.  Hopefully the growth process kicks in next year or else we are just in for a repeat of Lavin's output in years 2 thru 5

This feels nothing to me like lavins 2-5. I feel like we are 2-3 pieces away + a year of maturation from being a legitimate top 3 team in the BE. Sign a big man this summer and we may have all we need.

Say what you will, but there was postseason tournaments throughout Lavin's duration.  But, that's in the past.

This offseason is important, as well, due to possible defections.  We need some continuity or we'll end up spinning our wheels.  I just don't see resolve in signing this player or that player when we haven't shown consistent discipline or capabilities to play defense.

I am not discrediting lavin's success I just never felt like those team were poised to take off. Felt more like a team sputtering towards the finish line every year. For instance, Lavins 3rd year team with Dlo as a soph, talent wise I think they were pretty comparable to this years team and probably out performed them overall as well (NIT win). However I think this team has showed more promise and potential for the future and more fun to watch.

Lavin had more balanced rosters, better athletes and defenders but not better shooters/scorers.
There isn't one player on our current team who boxes out. If they just boxed out tonight, and improved in no other area, this game goes down to the wire. We have to hustle to score every single point, but Creighton gets free baskets because just don't pay attention.

Lavin never had balance. That was his issue. Among some other things. This team now has more balance than Lavs 3rd year team whos only bigs were freshmen Jakar Obekpa  and CJ.

Lavin's 3rd Year the team was headed for the NCAA tournament before Harrison went off the deep end. They scored well enough. They were fast. They rebounded well enough. It wasn't a great team, but it was more well rounded than this one. That's why they won more games.

Jakarr and Obekpa were very good that year. They certainly were not the problem.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 11:09:05 PM by Poison »

Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #146 on: February 28, 2017, 11:20:46 PM »
I think we'll win on Saturday to finish up at 8-10 in the conference.  I still think the team underachieved this season.  This should've been an NIT team at worse. 

Before the season started, I felt this would be a 17-win team that would finish around 6th or 7th in the conference and receive an NIT bid.  There are some things to look forward to next season, but there are things that need to be cleaned up or we'll be having a similar discussion a year from now.

I am with  you.  Had the same expectations.  It's the coaching.  They are learning on the job just as much as their frosh and reshirt frosh.  Hopefully the growth process kicks in next year or else we are just in for a repeat of Lavin's output in years 2 thru 5

This feels nothing to me like lavins 2-5. I feel like we are 2-3 pieces away + a year of maturation from being a legitimate top 3 team in the BE. Sign a big man this summer and we may have all we need.

Say what you will, but there was postseason tournaments throughout Lavin's duration.  But, that's in the past.

This offseason is important, as well, due to possible defections.  We need some continuity or we'll end up spinning our wheels.  I just don't see resolve in signing this player or that player when we haven't shown consistent discipline or capabilities to play defense.

I am not discrediting lavin's success I just never felt like those team were poised to take off. Felt more like a team sputtering towards the finish line every year. For instance, Lavins 3rd year team with Dlo as a soph, talent wise I think they were pretty comparable to this years team and probably out performed them overall as well (NIT win). However I think this team has showed more promise and potential for the future and more fun to watch.

Lavin had more balanced rosters, better athletes and defenders but not better shooters/scorers.
There isn't one player on our current team who boxes out. If they just boxed out tonight, and improved in no other area, this game goes down to the wire. We have to hustle to score every single point, but Creighton gets free baskets because just don't pay attention.

Lavin never had balance. That was his issue. Among some other things. This team now has more balance than Lavs 3rd year team whos only bigs were freshmen Jakar Obekpa  and CJ.

Lavin's 3rd Year the team was headed for the NCAA tournament before Harrison went off the deep end. They scored well enough. They were fast. They rebounded well enough. It wasn't a great team, but it was more well rounded than this one. That's why they won more games.

Jakarr and Obekpa were very good that year. They certainly were not the problem.

The problem was they were the only 4/5s on the roster. This team has more size and more skill. That team went 8-10 in BE play. This team had an awful out of conference season.
*wipes ketchup from his eyes* - I guess Heinz sight isn’t 20/20.

Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #147 on: February 28, 2017, 11:33:18 PM »
The problem was they were the only 4/5s on the roster. This team has more size and more skill. That team went 8-10 in BE play. This team had an awful out of conference season.

This team certainly shoots the ball better from deep and, overall, has a better backcourt.  That particular team you initially mentioned played in the old, Big East conference.  A better one (2012-2013 versus 2016-2017), too.  They did finish up at 8-10, but was 8-7 (16-11 overall) when Harrison was suspended.

Regardless, that doesn't discount the poor defensive effort we've seen throughout most of this season and why I think they've underachieved.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 11:34:25 PM by mjdinkins »

Poison

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Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #148 on: February 28, 2017, 11:53:13 PM »
I think we'll win on Saturday to finish up at 8-10 in the conference.  I still think the team underachieved this season.  This should've been an NIT team at worse. 

Before the season started, I felt this would be a 17-win team that would finish around 6th or 7th in the conference and receive an NIT bid.  There are some things to look forward to next season, but there are things that need to be cleaned up or we'll be having a similar discussion a year from now.

I am with  you.  Had the same expectations.  It's the coaching.  They are learning on the job just as much as their frosh and reshirt frosh.  Hopefully the growth process kicks in next year or else we are just in for a repeat of Lavin's output in years 2 thru 5

This feels nothing to me like lavins 2-5. I feel like we are 2-3 pieces away + a year of maturation from being a legitimate top 3 team in the BE. Sign a big man this summer and we may have all we need.

Say what you will, but there was postseason tournaments throughout Lavin's duration.  But, that's in the past.

This offseason is important, as well, due to possible defections.  We need some continuity or we'll end up spinning our wheels.  I just don't see resolve in signing this player or that player when we haven't shown consistent discipline or capabilities to play defense.

I am not discrediting lavin's success I just never felt like those team were poised to take off. Felt more like a team sputtering towards the finish line every year. For instance, Lavins 3rd year team with Dlo as a soph, talent wise I think they were pretty comparable to this years team and probably out performed them overall as well (NIT win). However I think this team has showed more promise and potential for the future and more fun to watch.

Lavin had more balanced rosters, better athletes and defenders but not better shooters/scorers.
There isn't one player on our current team who boxes out. If they just boxed out tonight, and improved in no other area, this game goes down to the wire. We have to hustle to score every single point, but Creighton gets free baskets because just don't pay attention.

Lavin never had balance. That was his issue. Among some other things. This team now has more balance than Lavs 3rd year team whos only bigs were freshmen Jakar Obekpa  and CJ.

Lavin's 3rd Year the team was headed for the NCAA tournament before Harrison went off the deep end. They scored well enough. They were fast. They rebounded well enough. It wasn't a great team, but it was more well rounded than this one. That's why they won more games.

Jakarr and Obekpa were very good that year. They certainly were not the problem.

The problem was they were the only 4/5s on the roster. This team has more size and more skill. That team went 8-10 in BE play. This team had an awful out of conference season.

I hear ya. We've got Owens. That's it. At least Jakarr and Chris were legit BE East players. Alibegovic, Williams and Yakwe had no business playing against a team like Creighton tonight. Lavin's team fell apart without Harrison. Mullin's did the same w out Owens. Next year, some dead weight should be encouraged to find a much easier place to play ball.

I'm not pushing anyone out the door, but I think Alibegovic, Mussini and Yakwe will transfer to MAAC or even lower, more appropriate conference.

QuanMan

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Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #149 on: February 28, 2017, 11:58:31 PM »
Although the resiliency and effort were there they were 6/25 from 3, 8/17 from the line, little to no discipline on shot selection, zero boxing out, and poor ball movement. Once again they were outperformed in the opening stanza, pretty much a even game after it. They need to shore up their team D this offseason. Individually Marcus in particular got blown by on back doors all night.

It has been a fun, roller coaster season. As noted above the growing pains through the OOC killed their overall record. Their improvement as a team month to month is not reflected in their overall record. However, they need to tighten up in a lot of areas. I'm confident that with the additions of Clark and Simon, and maybe a 17' Spring signing we will break through next year full fold.

Unfortunately the 8th seed is the death nail. Say we survive GTown next Wednesday night, playing Nova in a half full Garden Thursday afternoon is going to be a unfortunate way to end the season. Nevertheless, I hope they pull off two more wins before it. Here's to another solid Garden game on Saturday, but it's going to be very tough playing a Providence team playing with their NCAA hopes on the line.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 12:02:25 AM by QuanMan »
Section 3
Section 116

Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #150 on: March 01, 2017, 01:27:48 AM »
We do not play well on the road.   :down:

We play much better at home.   :up:

Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #151 on: March 01, 2017, 06:46:39 AM »

Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #152 on: March 01, 2017, 07:35:30 AM »
Mussini: 9 pts, 5 rebs, 1 ast 3-8 fg 2-6 3fg
Ellison :  9 pts, 5 rebs, 1 ast 3-8 fg 2-6 3fg

The difference:
Mussini: 0 to's, 0 fls
Ellison: 3 to's, 3 fls
I know Yakwe doesn't get a free pass here but how does he get out rebounded by Mussini, Ellison and LoVett? I'm sure he's happy Ellison is here to take the focus off his shortcomings.

Poison

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Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #153 on: March 01, 2017, 08:12:02 AM »
Mussini: 9 pts, 5 rebs, 1 ast 3-8 fg 2-6 3fg
Ellison :  9 pts, 5 rebs, 1 ast 3-8 fg 2-6 3fg

The difference:
Mussini: 0 to's, 0 fls
Ellison: 3 to's, 3 fls
I know Yakwe doesn't get a free pass here but how does he get out rebounded by Mussini, Ellison and LoVett? I'm sure he's happy Ellison is here to take the focus off his shortcomings.

Yakwe has regressed so much so that he doesn't look good enough to play in the MAAC.

Wods317

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Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #154 on: March 01, 2017, 09:14:36 AM »
Yakwe, Ahmed, and Ellison were very frustrating to watch last night. Every once in a while like he did last night Ellison slashes through defenders and get an easy layup and you are like wow thats impressive but then it completely disappears and he starts making more mistakes. I think he has the tools but hopefully he his mental maturity follows suit for next season. Ahmed is very frustrating. He has skill and is good at getting to the rim but putting your head and just trying to bull your way to the rim every time you drive doesn't work. If he can learn to dish more when the drive isnt open and take some better shots he can be a very effective player, the skills are there. Yakwe is just an absolute mess, he travels constantly, throws up airballs and doesn't grab boards. The other two I think have a chance to still be very effective next year but Yakwe I am questioning because this has been a lost season.

Wods317

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Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #155 on: March 01, 2017, 09:18:47 AM »
I think we'll win on Saturday to finish up at 8-10 in the conference.  I still think the team underachieved this season.  This should've been an NIT team at worse. 

Before the season started, I felt this would be a 17-win team that would finish around 6th or 7th in the conference and receive an NIT bid.  There are some things to look forward to next season, but there are things that need to be cleaned up or we'll be having a similar discussion a year from now.

I am with  you.  Had the same expectations.  It's the coaching.  They are learning on the job just as much as their frosh and reshirt frosh.  Hopefully the growth process kicks in next year or else we are just in for a repeat of Lavin's output in years 2 thru 5

This feels nothing to me like lavins 2-5. I feel like we are 2-3 pieces away + a year of maturation from being a legitimate top 3 team in the BE. Sign a big man this summer and we may have all we need.

I am incredibly optimistic. Swap out Ellison for a touted defender and point-forward in Simon. Beef up with Clark. Put 25 lbs in Owens. Get the big second year out of Bash. Maybe add a grad transfer. Let Williams heal and get conditioned...boom.

This optimism is realism.

I am forever the optimist with SJU. I think next year we will be very talented and deep. With another offseason together and maybe a grad transfer big added to the roster we have all the tools. Next season is very important for this staff, we need to show the '18 and '19 recruits that we are back on the road to being an NCAA contending team year in and out.

Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #156 on: March 01, 2017, 09:46:18 AM »
On redmen message boards someone broke down +/- for Malik last night.....For all the Ellison Love/Hate. Post from message board below:

Ellison was -18 in the first half. Rest of team was +5 without Malik on the floor, a 23 point swing.

Second half was a little better. Ellison was -5, rest of the team was +4 without Malik on the floor, a 9 point swing.

For the game Ellison was -23. The rest of the team was +9 without Malik on the floor, a 32 point swing.

If you remove a -3 for rest of team and a +3 for Ellison when the game got out of hand in the last few minutes, it's -26 and +12, a 38 point swing in ~36 minutes of basketball.

And it wasn't like it was only driven by one good/bad run or something. If you remove the end of the game, Ellison had 6 sessions on the court. Only 1 was positive, a +1 when he scored the 8 quick points. Over same stretch of game the rest of the team had 5 sessions without Ellison on the court. Only 1 was negative, a -2 in the last 30 seconds of the 1st half when Creighton had a tip in near the buzzer.

Individual +/- is a flawed statistic in my view, especially in small samples. I don't think one player being +4 and another being -4 in a game is statistically meaningful, or even necessarily means the player in the positive had a better game. Bigger fan of +/- for entire 5-player combinations.

But when the numbers are extreme it's difficult to ignore. And these numbers are absolutely astounding. Especially for a player that played the third most minutes on the team last night after playing the second most against Georgetown, while not playing particularly well in either game.

Plenty of other guys didn't play well last night, but this seems to be a growing trend for Ellison with significant minutes for not a lot of production. What is the staff trying to accomplish here?

Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #157 on: March 01, 2017, 09:50:54 AM »
On redmen message boards someone broke down +/- for Malik last night.....For all the Ellison Love/Hate. Post from message board below:

Ellison was -18 in the first half. Rest of team was +5 without Malik on the floor, a 23 point swing.

Second half was a little better. Ellison was -5, rest of the team was +4 without Malik on the floor, a 9 point swing.

For the game Ellison was -23. The rest of the team was +9 without Malik on the floor, a 32 point swing.

If you remove a -3 for rest of team and a +3 for Ellison when the game got out of hand in the last few minutes, it's -26 and +12, a 38 point swing in ~36 minutes of basketball.

And it wasn't like it was only driven by one good/bad run or something. If you remove the end of the game, Ellison had 6 sessions on the court. Only 1 was positive, a +1 when he scored the 8 quick points. Over same stretch of game the rest of the team had 5 sessions without Ellison on the court. Only 1 was negative, a -2 in the last 30 seconds of the 1st half when Creighton had a tip in near the buzzer.

Individual +/- is a flawed statistic in my view, especially in small samples. I don't think one player being +4 and another being -4 in a game is statistically meaningful, or even necessarily means the player in the positive had a better game. Bigger fan of +/- for entire 5-player combinations.

But when the numbers are extreme it's difficult to ignore. And these numbers are absolutely astounding. Especially for a player that played the third most minutes on the team last night after playing the second most against Georgetown, while not playing particularly well in either game.

Plenty of other guys didn't play well last night, but this seems to be a growing trend for Ellison with significant minutes for not a lot of production. What is the staff trying to accomplish here?

If he's not scoring -- which for the exception of 2.minutes he wasn't-- what does he bring? Certainly it's not smarts.
*wipes ketchup from his eyes* - I guess Heinz sight isn’t 20/20.

Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #158 on: March 01, 2017, 10:20:18 AM »
On redmen message boards someone broke down +/- for Malik last night.....For all the Ellison Love/Hate. Post from message board below:

Ellison was -18 in the first half. Rest of team was +5 without Malik on the floor, a 23 point swing.

Second half was a little better. Ellison was -5, rest of the team was +4 without Malik on the floor, a 9 point swing.

For the game Ellison was -23. The rest of the team was +9 without Malik on the floor, a 32 point swing.

If you remove a -3 for rest of team and a +3 for Ellison when the game got out of hand in the last few minutes, it's -26 and +12, a 38 point swing in ~36 minutes of basketball.

And it wasn't like it was only driven by one good/bad run or something. If you remove the end of the game, Ellison had 6 sessions on the court. Only 1 was positive, a +1 when he scored the 8 quick points. Over same stretch of game the rest of the team had 5 sessions without Ellison on the court. Only 1 was negative, a -2 in the last 30 seconds of the 1st half when Creighton had a tip in near the buzzer.

Individual +/- is a flawed statistic in my view, especially in small samples. I don't think one player being +4 and another being -4 in a game is statistically meaningful, or even necessarily means the player in the positive had a better game. Bigger fan of +/- for entire 5-player combinations.

But when the numbers are extreme it's difficult to ignore. And these numbers are absolutely astounding. Especially for a player that played the third most minutes on the team last night after playing the second most against Georgetown, while not playing particularly well in either game.

Plenty of other guys didn't play well last night, but this seems to be a growing trend for Ellison with significant minutes for not a lot of production. What is the staff trying to accomplish here?

+/- is a weird stat because I don't think it accurately reflects individual performance, but rather the unit around him. There were lineups he was in that could not do anything, and everyone was negatively impacted. I am sure he had a definite negative role, but there needs to be a deeper analysis. For example, Javale McGee has the highest +/- Per 36 because he plays around Steph, Klay, Dray, and KD. If Malik was starting on Duke with Kennard, Allen, Tatum, and Jefferson then he also might have a good +/-. I think we need to get an exact +/- of how he does with the starters and the bench unit to see who he plays better with.

On KenPom., last night, no starter had above a 100 Offensive Rating which is awful. Looking at the crazy formula that Dean Oliver created, 100 seems to be a good night. Ellison was the second highest starter last night, with only Sham being in front.

Which stat line would you rather have?

Min/Pts/2PM-A/3PM-A/FTM-A/OR/DR/A/TO/BLK/STL/PF

Player A: 24/6/3-8/0-3/0-2/1/6/1/4/2/1/2

Player B: 25/9/1-2/2-6/1-2/1/5/1/3/0/0/4

A is Ahmed and B is Ellison. Ellison is the scapegoat of the season. He will not be used this much next year. His minutes will be cut in half next year with Simon taking his spot. In my opinion, Ahmed has had some awful games. He charges in and has no idea what to do with the ball or takes a quick three that he somehow makes and does the same thing the next possession but even faster. I have never seen him correctly run a fast break because he refuses to pass. Ahmed has a higher usage rate than Ellison but his ORtg is 94.9 compared to Ellison's 99.0. Ahmed is at the bottom of the Big East for ORtg for players that use at least 24% of possessions in a game. In total, the only players he is above regardless of possession usage is Yakwe, Brandon Cyrus, Sanogo, and Quentin Gooden. Ellison's offensive game closely compares to McCallum from Depaul or Diallo from Providence. I will love that as a bench piece next year.

He is not as bad as people make it him out to be.

ras

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Re: Game 30: @ Creighton
« Reply #159 on: March 01, 2017, 10:24:41 AM »
I think we'll win on Saturday to finish up at 8-10 in the conference.  I still think the team underachieved this season.  This should've been an NIT team at worse. 

Before the season started, I felt this would be a 17-win team that would finish around 6th or 7th in the conference and receive an NIT bid.  There are some things to look forward to next season, but there are things that need to be cleaned up or we'll be having a similar discussion a year from now.

I am with  you.  Had the same expectations.  It's the coaching.  They are learning on the job just as much as their frosh and reshirt frosh.  Hopefully the growth process kicks in next year or else we are just in for a repeat of Lavin's output in years 2 thru 5

This feels nothing to me like lavins 2-5. I feel like we are 2-3 pieces away + a year of maturation from being a legitimate top 3 team in the BE. Sign a big man this summer and we may have all we need.

I am incredibly optimistic. Swap out Ellison for a touted defender and point-forward in Simon. Beef up with Clark. Put 25 lbs in Owens. Get the big second year out of Bash. Maybe add a grad transfer. Let Williams heal and get conditioned...boom.

This optimism is realism.

I am forever the optimist with SJU. I think next year we will be very talented and deep. With another offseason together and maybe a grad transfer big added to the roster we have all the tools. Next season is very important for this staff, we need to show the '18 and '19 recruits that we are back on the road to being an NCAA contending team year in and out.
I have to hand it to you. I don't know how you can be a fan for the last 15 years and be forever the optimist. Thats not to say we wont be a perinial top 25 team in the future. To early to judge IMO.