17-18 Player Contributions

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on June 20, 2017, 11:41:43 AM

Quote from: Poison on June 20, 2017, 09:02:06 AM

'When LoVett was out, I thought Ponds made crisp passes and good decisions with the ball. Why isn't Ponds running the offense?  but that's what he is. LoVett was sloppy at times, and he forced the action' 

Love it: 3.8 assists        2.6 turnovers

Mongaup: 3.1 assists    1.9 turnovers

Their assist/turnover ratios were virtually identical , with Marcus having more assists in less minutes per game, so I'm not sure why Ponds was a "much better passer" and Lovett was "sloppy at times".

Potential is great and all but these two were 1a and 1b stars for us in their freshmen campaigns. Love it shouldn't be considered to have taken a back seat to "the future Nba point" until he actually does.

Please explain how sloppiness can be reflected in stats? That is an eye test.  Ponds' turnovers were mostly a result of him being nonchalant. Lovett's turnovers were almost always a result of being out of control or delivering passes that couldn't be handled. In truth, many more turnovers could have been attributed to Lovett instead of his desired recipients. When Ponds dishes it, he almost always leaves his man in a position to finish and with a ball that is easily controlled. Lovett will fire a laser laser second to a guy like Yakwe.

If you're going to pick out the one stat that comes closest to gauging "sloppiness" - it would be turnovers.

The other observations you make about LP turnovers and passes are interesting but I don't recall feeling that way while watching the dynamic duo. 

We'll see what next season brings.

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on June 20, 2017, 11:41:43 AM

Quote from: Poison on June 20, 2017, 09:02:06 AM

'When LoVett was out, I thought Ponds made crisp passes and good decisions with the ball. Why isn't Ponds running the offense?  but that's what he is. LoVett was sloppy at times, and he forced the action' 

Love it: 3.8 assists        2.6 turnovers

Mongaup: 3.1 assists    1.9 turnovers

Their assist/turnover ratios were virtually identical , with Marcus having more assists in less minutes per game, so I'm not sure why Ponds was a "much better passer" and Lovett was "sloppy at times".

Potential is great and all but these two were 1a and 1b stars for us in their freshmen campaigns. Love it shouldn't be considered to have taken a back seat to "the future Nba point" until he actually does.

LoVett had Ponds to finish plays.

And vice versa.  Marcus was the better finisher than Walden last year.  Remember?

Quote from: Poison on June 20, 2017, 12:16:10 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on June 20, 2017, 11:41:43 AM

Quote from: Poison on June 20, 2017, 09:02:06 AM

'When LoVett was out, I thought Ponds made crisp passes and good decisions with the ball. Why isn't Ponds running the offense?  but that's what he is. LoVett was sloppy at times, and he forced the action' 

Love it: 3.8 assists        2.6 turnovers

Mongaup: 3.1 assists    1.9 turnovers

Their assist/turnover ratios were virtually identical , with Marcus having more assists in less minutes per game, so I'm not sure why Ponds was a "much better passer" and Lovett was "sloppy at times".

Potential is great and all but these two were 1a and 1b stars for us in their freshmen campaigns. Love it shouldn't be considered to have taken a back seat to "the future Nba point" until he actually does.

LoVett had Ponds to finish plays.

And vice versa.  Marcus was the better finisher than Walden last year.  Remember?

Ponds gets no respect. He's the best player we've had in 20 years. He also is one of the best in the country finishing with his off hand. Lovett finishes every layup make or miss by sitting on the baseline and letting his team defend 4-5.

Ponds gets no respect.

Everyone acknowledges that Ponds is a prodigy. I cannot think of one post expressing a negative opinion about his talent or potential. If by "no respect" you mean that some people think that Lovett at 22 is as good a player as Ponds is at 19 - which I think he is - then your statement is true. Otherwise not so much.

Quote from: Marillac on June 20, 2017, 03:12:14 PM

Ponds gets no respect.

Everyone acknowledges that Ponds is a prodigy. I cannot think of one post expressing a negative opinion about his talent or potential. If by "no respect" you mean that some people think that Lovett at 22 is as good a player as Ponds is at 19 - which I think he is - then your statement is true. Otherwise not so much.

One caveat to the above, posters have rightfully called out his defensive effort on occasion.   Not that Lovett is any better in that area.  They've both shown a tendency to play some matador-D.

Quote from: Foad on June 20, 2017, 05:08:40 PM

Quote from: Marillac on June 20, 2017, 03:12:14 PM

Ponds gets no respect.

Everyone acknowledges that Ponds is a prodigy. I cannot think of one post expressing a negative opinion about his talent or potential. If by "no respect" you mean that some people think that Lovett at 22 is as good a player as Ponds is at 19 - which I think he is - then your statement is true. Otherwise not so much.

One caveat to the above, posters have rightfully called out his defensive effort on occasion.   Not that Lovett is any better in that area.  They've both shown a tendency to play some matador-D.

Ponds is worse.  He's great at grabbing steals and pick pocketing, but must improve a ton at stopping his man. 

Quote from: Marillac on June 20, 2017, 03:12:14 PM

Ponds gets no respect.

Everyone acknowledges that Ponds is a prodigy. I cannot think of one post expressing a negative opinion about his talent or potential. If by "no respect" you mean that some people think that Lovett at 22 is as good a player as Ponds is at 19 - which I think he is - then your statement is true. Otherwise not so much.

A few hours ago Desco wrote that Ponds was the third best PG on our team. We have just  four guards on the roster (on a sub .500 team) and only two of them have ever played a minute of PG in college. He took that a step further to call Simon a "bonafide" PG. Simon's stats at Arizona projected over 30 minutes were 1.2 assists and 2.4 turnovers compared with 5 rebounds. Not only did he fail to unseat a lower ranked 5'8 soph PG, who played just 9 mpg as a freshman and who averages 4.4 pts and just 3.1 assists in his career to this point, he lost the backup PG spot to a first year JUCO SG from Ahmed's alma mater. Simon played exclusively at the three and two spots at Arizona, backing up their best players instead of a so-so PG.

Ponds is the best player we've had in 20 years and that includes Hatten. He is a future NBA draft
pick as a PG which is his natural position, yet seemingly 80% of the fans on this board don't think he can play PG. That doesn't seem like respect to me.

Simon has both a high dribble and a loose dribble compared with other PGs. He overrelies on one hand to dribble and finish. His PG skillset can only be described as raw at this point, and unlike Ponds, he has not proven he can run an offense in college. Elijah Ingram was a McDonald's All-American PG rated much higher of a PG than Simon by the same recruiting services and he was an undersized SG. Ponds is a PG that can score. Simon is a SG that can't shoot but can pass. 

And let me also add that I 100% believe Ponds  would have started at PG for Arizona two years ago ober PJC.

Lovett finishes every layup make or miss by sitting on the baseline and letting his team defend 4-5.

That is a valid point.  Fortunately,  he does run like a deer so when he does decide to get up off his bum and back into the play,  he does so rapidly.

Obviously,  Sham's opening campaign has been a revelation. I've seen an appropriate abundance of praise for him on this forum thus far.

My point is that Lovett hasn't been chopped liver either.  You expound as if Mongaup is head and shoulders above Marcus.  One day he might be - but so far he hasn't been.

Many moons ago I was singing the praises of personal fav Paris Hilton here and you wrote that he ain't nothing compared to Kemba Walker - and you were right.

Maybe you'll be right about this too, but I'll just wait and see.

P.S.  My only knock against Ponds is that at times last season he showed a wanton indifference to defending that our many other weak defensive guards didn't display.
 

Quote from: Foad on June 20, 2017, 05:08:40 PM

Quote from: Marillac on June 20, 2017, 03:12:14 PM

Ponds gets no respect.

Everyone acknowledges that Ponds is a prodigy. I cannot think of one post expressing a negative opinion about his talent or potential. If by "no respect" you mean that some people think that Lovett at 22 is as good a player as Ponds is at 19 - which I think he is - then your statement is true. Otherwise not so much.

A few hours ago Desco wrote that Ponds was the third best PG on our team. We have just  four guards on the roster (on a sub .500 team) and only two of them have ever played a minute of PG in college. He took that a step further to call Simon a "bonafide" PG. Simon's stats at Arizona projected over 30 minutes were 1.2 assists and 2.4 turnovers compared with 5 rebounds. Not only did he fail to unseat a lower ranked 5'8 soph PG, who played just 9 mpg as a freshman and who averages 4.4 pts and just 3.1 assists in his career to this point, he lost the backup PG spot to a first year JUCO SG from Ahmed's alma mater. Simon played exclusively at the three and two spots at Arizona, backing up their best players instead of a so-so PG.

Ponds is the best player we've had in 20 years and that includes Hatten. He is a future NBA draft
pick as a PG which is his natural position, yet seemingly 80% of the fans on this board don't think he can play PG. That doesn't seem like respect to me.

Simon has both a high dribble and a loose dribble compared with other PGs. He overrelies on one hand to dribble and finish. His PG skillset can only be described as raw at this point, and unlike Ponds, he has not proven he can run an offense in college. Elijah Ingram was a McDonald's All-American PG rated much higher of a PG than Simon by the same recruiting services and he was an undersized SG. Ponds is a PG that can score. Simon is a SG that can't shoot but can pass. 

Again, one poster saying Ponds isn't the best point guard on the team hardly translates to him getting no respect. He gets a lot of respect. As to the stuff about Simon, his stats at AU, his tertiary footwork, how high his dribble is, I've never seen him play. Maybe he's a power forward, I don't know, but you do seem pretty emotionally invested in him not being a point guard. As to Ponds and Hatten, Ponds as a freshman is not a better player than Hatten was as a senior, that's crazy talk. Hatten dominated on both sides of the ball, Ponds does not. Despite his gaudy steal numbers he's at best a lazy ineffective defender. The one thing he does better than Hatten did is shoot and Hatten was so good that it didn't matter that he couldn't. Ponds is as good a freshman as I've seen going back to Chris Mullin and except for his size and statute I don't see a ceiling for him but he's not Marcus Hatten. Not yet anyway. That's nearly blasphemous.

Ponds first collegiate game starting at point guard was against Fordham.
His stats in that game.
26 points 9 assists 7 rebounds 4 steals.

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on June 20, 2017, 02:35:44 PM

Quote from: Poison on June 20, 2017, 12:16:10 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on June 20, 2017, 11:41:43 AM

Quote from: Poison on June 20, 2017, 09:02:06 AM

'When LoVett was out, I thought Ponds made crisp passes and good decisions with the ball. Why isn't Ponds running the offense?  but that's what he is. LoVett was sloppy at times, and he forced the action' 

Love it: 3.8 assists        2.6 turnovers

Mongaup: 3.1 assists    1.9 turnovers

Their assist/turnover ratios were virtually identical , with Marcus having more assists in less minutes per game, so I'm not sure why Ponds was a "much better passer" and Lovett was "sloppy at times".

Potential is great and all but these two were 1a and 1b stars for us in their freshmen campaigns. Love it shouldn't be considered to have taken a back seat to "the future Nba point" until he actually does.

LoVett had Ponds to finish plays.

And vice versa.  Marcus was the better finisher than Walden last year.  Remember?

Ponds gets no respect. He's the best player we've had in 20 years.

Ponds has shown the potential to be an all time great Johnny, but to say he's the best player we've had in 20 years considering his liability on defense is a stretch. I wouldn't take him over Hatten or Barkley, and Hardy carried that 2010 team. Darryl Hill post injury was pretty good, and Artest was Artest. This takes nothing away from Ponds. He's a great offensive player and good passer. He has quick hands and plays the passing lanes well so he picks up a lot of steals, but his lateral movement has been terrible. He's young and clearly has the ability to be a good on the ball defender, but does he have the will? We will see this year.

Who cares which guard position he plays if he helps this team win games?

All that other crap is for his pro aspirations.

Quote from: Marillac on June 20, 2017, 03:12:14 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on June 20, 2017, 02:35:44 PM

Quote from: Poison on June 20, 2017, 12:16:10 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on June 20, 2017, 11:41:43 AM

Quote from: Poison on June 20, 2017, 09:02:06 AM

'When LoVett was out, I thought Ponds made crisp passes and good decisions with the ball. Why isn't Ponds running the offense?  but that's what he is. LoVett was sloppy at times, and he forced the action' 

Love it: 3.8 assists        2.6 turnovers

Mongaup: 3.1 assists    1.9 turnovers

Their assist/turnover ratios were virtually identical , with Marcus having more assists in less minutes per game, so I'm not sure why Ponds was a "much better passer" and Lovett was "sloppy at times".

Potential is great and all but these two were 1a and 1b stars for us in their freshmen campaigns. Love it shouldn't be considered to have taken a back seat to "the future Nba point" until he actually does.

LoVett had Ponds to finish plays.

And vice versa.  Marcus was the better finisher than Walden last year.  Remember?

Ponds gets no respect. He's the best player we've had in 20 years.

Ponds has shown the potential to be an all time great Johnny, but to say he's the best player we've had in 20 years considering his liability on defense is a stretch. I wouldn't take him over Hatten or Barkley, and Hardy carried that 2010 team. Darryl Hill post injury was pretty good, and Artest was Artest. This takes nothing away from Ponds. He's a great offensive player and good passer. He has quick hands and plays the passing lanes well so he picks up a lot of steals, but his lateral movement has been terrible. He's young and clearly has the ability to be a good on the ball defender, but does he have the will? We will see this year.

We only saw Hatten and Barkley after they had already turned 20. Ponds was a true freshman. Let's see where Ponds is when he's a junior. Guys like Hill are not comparable to Ponds. Hardy was very good, but he wasn't alone. Brownlee, Burrell, Horne and DJ all had key roles.

It's close between who is a better PG right now between Ponds and Lovett. What's not debatable is that Ponds is a much better player at the 2 than Lovett. Therefore the decision to give Lovett the majority of the minutes at the PG spot seems like an easy one to me.

Also, I'm baffled how people can have such strong, definitive opinions on a guy like Simon who hasn't played in over a year and who most have not seen any more than a couple minutes of his Freshman year at 'Zona and maybe a couple YouTube highlight videos.

Quote from: Marillac on June 21, 2017, 12:20:58 AM

Quote from: Foad on June 20, 2017, 05:08:40 PM

Quote from: Marillac on June 20, 2017, 03:12:14 PM

Ponds gets no respect.

Everyone acknowledges that Ponds is a prodigy. I cannot think of one post expressing a negative opinion about his talent or potential. If by "no respect" you mean that some people think that Lovett at 22 is as good a player as Ponds is at 19 - which I think he is - then your statement is true. Otherwise not so much.

A few hours ago Desco wrote that Ponds was the third best PG on our team. We have just  four guards on the roster (on a sub .500 team) and only two of them have ever played a minute of PG in college. He took that a step further to call Simon a "bonafide" PG. Simon's stats at Arizona projected over 30 minutes were 1.2 assists and 2.4 turnovers compared with 5 rebounds. Not only did he fail to unseat a lower ranked 5'8 soph PG, who played just 9 mpg as a freshman and who averages 4.4 pts and just 3.1 assists in his career to this point, he lost the backup PG spot to a first year JUCO SG from Ahmed's alma mater. Simon played exclusively at the three and two spots at Arizona, backing up their best players instead of a so-so PG.

Ponds is the best player we've had in 20 years and that includes Hatten. He is a future NBA draft
pick as a PG which is his natural position, yet seemingly 80% of the fans on this board don't think he can play PG. That doesn't seem like respect to me.

Simon has both a high dribble and a loose dribble compared with other PGs. He overrelies on one hand to dribble and finish. His PG skillset can only be described as raw at this point, and unlike Ponds, he has not proven he can run an offense in college. Elijah Ingram was a McDonald's All-American PG rated much higher of a PG than Simon by the same recruiting services and he was an undersized SG. Ponds is a PG that can score. Simon is a SG that can't shoot but can pass. 

Again, one poster saying Ponds isn't the best point guard on the team hardly translates to him getting no respect. He gets a lot of respect. As to the stuff about Simon, his stats at AU, his tertiary footwork, how high his dribble is, I've never seen him play. Maybe he's a power forward, I don't know, but you do seem pretty emotionally invested in him not being a point guard. As to Ponds and Hatten, Ponds as a freshman is not a better player than Hatten was as a senior, that's crazy talk. Hatten dominated on both sides of the ball, Ponds does not. Despite his gaudy steal numbers he's at best a lazy ineffective defender. The one thing he does better than Hatten did is shoot and Hatten was so good that it didn't matter that he couldn't. Ponds is as good a freshman as I've seen going back to Chris Mullin and except for his size and statute I don't see a ceiling for him but he's not Marcus Hatten. Not yet anyway. That's nearly blasphemous.

My assessment of Ponds is projected over 3-4 years. He wasn't  better than Hatten as a freshman, but Hatten as a freshman wasn't better than the Hatten we knew either.

It's close between who is a better PG right now between Ponds and Lovett. What's not debatable is that Ponds is a much better player at the 2 than Lovett. Therefore the decision to give Lovett the majority of the minutes at the PG spot seems like an easy one to me.

Also, I'm baffled how people can have such strong, definitive opinions on a guy like Simon who hasn't played in over a year and who most have not seen any more than a couple minutes of his Freshman year at 'Zona and maybe a couple YouTube highlight videos.

I completely agree with your first paragraph. As for the second, I find the persistent Simon PG talk annoying and quite obviously incorrect.  We have two capable if not awesome PGs who are just six feet tall. Even if Simon is just as good as the pair, he's 6'5 210! We were absolutely eaten alive by bigger guards and SFs that could handle  last year.  Why on Earth would he play anywhere but SF for the overwhelming majority of his minutes with Ponds figuring to play 33-34 mpg and Lovett around 30? His handle and passing will be welcome at the three and he will be asked to lead the offense at times to get the Lovett and Ponds jump shots since they are much better shooters.

Quote from: redstorm212 on June 21, 2017, 05:03:59 PM

It's close between who is a better PG right now between Ponds and Lovett. What's not debatable is that Ponds is a much better player at the 2 than Lovett. Therefore the decision to give Lovett the majority of the minutes at the PG spot seems like an easy one to me.

Also, I'm baffled how people can have such strong, definitive opinions on a guy like Simon who hasn't played in over a year and who most have not seen any more than a couple minutes of his Freshman year at 'Zona and maybe a couple YouTube highlight videos.

I completely agree with your first paragraph. As for the second, I find the persistent Simon PG talk annoying and quite obviously incorrect.  We have two capable if not awesome PGs who are just six feet tall. Even if Simon is just as good as the pair, he's 6'5 210! We were absolutely eaten alive by bigger guards and SFs that could handle  last year.  Why on Earth would he play anywhere but SF for the overwhelming majority of his minutes with Ponds figuring to play 33-34 mpg and Lovett around 30? His handle and passing will be welcome at the three and he will be asked to lead the offense at times to get the Lovett and Ponds jump shots since they are much better shooters.

I completely agree that Simon at his size will be good at the 3 at times when playing along side ponds and Lovett. But I think he will also come in useful playing the 1 or 2 when ponds or Lovett needs a breather.

I don't think experts label him a PG for the hell of it. I gotta believe that's where he'll be most efficient.

Quote from: redstorm212 on June 21, 2017, 05:03:59 PM

It's close between who is a better PG right now between Ponds and Lovett. What's not debatable is that Ponds is a much better player at the 2 than Lovett. Therefore the decision to give Lovett the majority of the minutes at the PG spot seems like an easy one to me.

Also, I'm baffled how people can have such strong, definitive opinions on a guy like Simon who hasn't played in over a year and who most have not seen any more than a couple minutes of his Freshman year at 'Zona and maybe a couple YouTube highlight videos.

I completely agree with your first paragraph. As for the second, I find the persistent Simon PG talk annoying and quite obviously incorrect.  We have two capable if not awesome PGs who are just six feet tall. Even if Simon is just as good as the pair, he's 6'5 210! We were absolutely eaten alive by bigger guards and SFs that could handle  last year.  Why on Earth would he play anywhere but SF for the overwhelming majority of his minutes with Ponds figuring to play 33-34 mpg and Lovett around 30? His handle and passing will be welcome at the three and he will be asked to lead the offense at times to get the Lovett and Ponds jump shots since they are much better shooters.

Simon (or anybody else) playing PG on the offensive end doesn't necessarily mean he will have to guard the other team's PG, and it would be unlikely the other team's PG would guard him if our smaller guards are on the floor at the same time. Simon can run the offense and guard the other team's best wing player if need be

Quote from: Marillac on June 22, 2017, 02:42:16 AM

Quote from: redstorm212 on June 21, 2017, 05:03:59 PM

It's close between who is a better PG right now between Ponds and Lovett. What's not debatable is that Ponds is a much better player at the 2 than Lovett. Therefore the decision to give Lovett the majority of the minutes at the PG spot seems like an easy one to me.

Also, I'm baffled how people can have such strong, definitive opinions on a guy like Simon who hasn't played in over a year and who most have not seen any more than a couple minutes of his Freshman year at 'Zona and maybe a couple YouTube highlight videos.

I completely agree with your first paragraph. As for the second, I find the persistent Simon PG talk annoying and quite obviously incorrect.  We have two capable if not awesome PGs who are just six feet tall. Even if Simon is just as good as the pair, he's 6'5 210! We were absolutely eaten alive by bigger guards and SFs that could handle  last year.  Why on Earth would he play anywhere but SF for the overwhelming majority of his minutes with Ponds figuring to play 33-34 mpg and Lovett around 30? His handle and passing will be welcome at the three and he will be asked to lead the offense at times to get the Lovett and Ponds jump shots since they are much better shooters.

Simon (or anybody else) playing PG on the offensive end doesn't necessarily mean he will have to guard the other team's PG, and it would be unlikely the other team's PG would guard him if our smaller guards are on the floor at the same time. Simon can run the offense and guard the other team's best wing player if need be

It's not his defense that is the issue. It wouldn't surprise me if he is the best PG defender. He does not have any experience running a half court offense at this level. He doesn't have the handle to do that for long periods of time. He is very raw in the half court.