Chris Mullin's seat getting hotter?

Improvement?

From 2017 to 2018, talent is better, coaching is better, defense is better.  That's constitutes improvement. It might not be optimal but this year's team was better than last year's, I don't see how that's even arguable.

Three years  doesn't, but could you atleast try recruiting, or made the effort to be on campus last Sunday, when a grad transfer big was on campus.     He wasn't and Femi said screw Mullin.It all starts with recruitinf Pmg.    Should be a simply thing to understand for Mullin, but I guess not.

Wasn't that rumor debunked by the rumor monger who started it? Pretty sure it was.

Quote from: Poison on April 11, 2018, 03:57:44 PM

Mullin's failures aren't as a game coach. The team despite only having 6/7 players for most of the season was competitive in all but 3 or 4 games. The problem is his management of the program. It's as if he doesn't realize that this is his program. It's certainly reasonable to forgive some transfers because that's the game today. No one wants to wait their turn, and everyone thinks they deserve major minutes despite whether they've earned them or not.

But lack of PT isn't the case with most of the players who are leaving. Owens would have played. Probably would have started. He decided not to. Why? What has he recognized in this staff that has him on a plane to Texas?

What concerns me the most isn't even the chances taken on Zach Brown and Sid Wilson. It's the fact that so many players simply don't want to play for Mullin. What's the problem? Why are so many players jumping ship? Sima, Ellison, Yakwe, LoVett and Owens should be forming a strong senior core heading into next season. On paper, each player's reason for leaving is different, but the commonality cannot be ignored anymore.

I don't disagree with the first half of this. I don't even disagree with the second half except:

Of the players who've left, which one's have made wise decisions that flattered their characters and or furthered their careers? Sima transferred mid season to sit out a year and played half a season at OK State, where he averaged 3 point a game, which he's now left. Ellison transferred to the worst program in D1, sat out a year and now has to play for a decimated program - as opposed to being an integral piece at SJU. Lovett quit on his team mates and ruined a basketball season for them and the fans and the university, for purely selfish reasons. That does not reflect well on him even if it works out. Owens left because he thinks - or his delusional father thinks - that he should be the focal point of the offense, despite being a haphazard shooter with no handle and no post game. And I note that under other circumstances some posters might describe him as a sissy who left the bright lights of NYC for some backwater in Trump country. Sid Wilson went to a team in the midst of an NCAA investigation. Moses Zach Brown's going to end up dead or in prison. The only departures that makes sense to me are Yawke - because he's been for whatever reason buried - and the two euros who went home to play for money.

It may be that they've all transferred because they doubt Mullin can help them develop as basketball players, although their are players - more talented players - who've flourished under Mullin: Ponds, Clarke and Simon. It could be that they're just teenage members of the stupidest generation with partially developed brains who transferred for nonsensical reasons having to do with the instant gratification everyone gets a gold star environment in which they were raised. It could be that staff had to take chance on players of questionable character because of the state of the cupard when he they got here and that backfired. It could be all of that or none. What I question is drawing conclusions about Mullin's tenure from their departures, singularly or collectively. Because not too many of them seem to have done what's best for themselves or their careers.

We didn’t lose world beaters, but we lost several guys that we needed. Sima would have helped this team. He left Spain to come here. For whatever reason it wasn’t a good fit. The staff had to get what they could in a very short time frame, and with very little to choose from. Wilson would have helped this team. He was recruited over the summer when I imagine the staff decided to count how many players they had for the season and realized that every other D1 team had more than two C/PFs.

Year one, it’s forgiven. Heading into year three it shouldn’t be forgiven by anyone. The staff has shown horrible judgement in their plan for building this program. Do you not agree?

The variety of excuses for players not working out is overwhelming. Ellison, Williams, Sima, Yakwe, Freudenberg, Mussini, Jones, Tariq’s dad, LoVett, Sid Wilson and Zach Brown aren’t accountable for the state of the St.John’s program.

I don’t know which of these players left because of something the staff did, didn’t do or said. None of us does, but I find it telling that you are pretty quick to blame the players and their parents instead of the coach.

When and where is Mullin accountable for the job he was hired to do?

Yet, big e

Quote from: rdstr25 on April 11, 2018, 04:50:38 PM

Improvement?

From 2017 to 2018, talent is better, coaching is better, defense is better.  That's constitutes improvement. It might not be optimal but this year's team was better than last year's, I don't see how that's even arguable.

Yet big east record was worse.

Quote from: Foad on April 11, 2018, 04:49:26 PM

Quote from: Poison on April 11, 2018, 03:57:44 PM

Mullin's failures aren't as a game coach. The team despite only having 6/7 players for most of the season was competitive in all but 3 or 4 games. The problem is his management of the program. It's as if he doesn't realize that this is his program. It's certainly reasonable to forgive some transfers because that's the game today. No one wants to wait their turn, and everyone thinks they deserve major minutes despite whether they've earned them or not.

But lack of PT isn't the case with most of the players who are leaving. Owens would have played. Probably would have started. He decided not to. Why? What has he recognized in this staff that has him on a plane to Texas?

What concerns me the most isn't even the chances taken on Zach Brown and Sid Wilson. It's the fact that so many players simply don't want to play for Mullin. What's the problem? Why are so many players jumping ship? Sima, Ellison, Yakwe, LoVett and Owens should be forming a strong senior core heading into next season. On paper, each player's reason for leaving is different, but the commonality cannot be ignored anymore.

I don't disagree with the first half of this. I don't even disagree with the second half except:

Of the players who've left, which one's have made wise decisions that flattered their characters and or furthered their careers? Sima transferred mid season to sit out a year and played half a season at OK State, where he averaged 3 point a game, which he's now left. Ellison transferred to the worst program in D1, sat out a year and now has to play for a decimated program - as opposed to being an integral piece at SJU. Lovett quit on his team mates and ruined a basketball season for them and the fans and the university, for purely selfish reasons. That does not reflect well on him even if it works out. Owens left because he thinks - or his delusional father thinks - that he should be the focal point of the offense, despite being a haphazard shooter with no handle and no post game. And I note that under other circumstances some posters might describe him as a sissy who left the bright lights of NYC for some backwater in Trump country. Sid Wilson went to a team in the midst of an NCAA investigation. Moses Zach Brown's going to end up dead or in prison. The only departures that makes sense to me are Yawke - because he's been for whatever reason buried - and the two euros who went home to play for money.

It may be that they've all transferred because they doubt Mullin can help them develop as basketball players, although their are players - more talented players - who've flourished under Mullin: Ponds, Clarke and Simon. It could be that they're just teenage members of the stupidest generation with partially developed brains who transferred for nonsensical reasons having to do with the instant gratification everyone gets a gold star environment in which they were raised. It could be that staff had to take chance on players of questionable character because of the state of the cupard when he they got here and that backfired. It could be all of that or none. What I question is drawing conclusions about Mullin's tenure from their departures, singularly or collectively. Because not too many of them seem to have done what's best for themselves or their careers.

We didn’t lose world beaters, but we lost several guys that we needed. Sima would have helped this team. He left Spain to come here. For whatever reason it wasn’t a good fit. The staff had to get what they could in a very short time frame, and with very little to choose from. Wilson would have helped this team. He was recruited over the summer when I imagine the staff decided to count how many players they had for the season and realized that every other D1 team had more than two C/PFs.

Year one, it’s forgiven. Heading into year three it shouldn’t be forgiven by anyone. The staff has shown horrible judgement in their plan for building this program. Do you not agree?

The variety of excuses for players not working out is overwhelming. Ellison, Williams, Sima, Yakwe, Freudenberg, Mussini, Jones, Tariq’s dad, LoVett, Sid Wilson and Zach Brown aren’t accountable for the state of the St.John’s program.

I don’t know which of these players left because of something the staff did, didn’t do or said. None of us does, but I find it telling that you are pretty quick to blame the players and their parents instead of the coach.

When and where is Mullin accountable for the job he was hired to do?

I'm not saying Mullin should not be accountable. Obviously he should be. I'm not saying that he's done a fine job. Obviously he has not. There are obvious deficiencies in the management of the program. Your original post stated them them well and fairly and I stated my agreement. Nor am I saying that the players who have left would not have helped. Obviously they would have. All I'm saying is that judging him on the basis of decisions made by teenagers - which in hindsight are in the main not the best decisions they might have made, because many of them were short sighted decisions that hurt themselves and their team mates and the fans and the university - might not be the only or best conclusion to be drawn, and especially because their decisions affected the outcome. That's all. Look at it this way: if Owens and Yawke not transferred, would it have changed your opinion of Mullin and the trajectory of the program? I don't think it so. All it does is confirm your opinion of what was and should be. You may well be right, eventually. But you're not right yet - and as a SJ BB fan I hope you're wrong - and the facts you posit as dispositive do not in me compel a different opinion. No doubt we can agree on this at least: next year is a big year.

Quote from: rdstr25 on April 11, 2018, 04:50:38 PM

Improvement?

From 2017 to 2018, talent is better, coaching is better, defense is better.  That's constitutes improvement. It might not be optimal but this year's team was better than last year's, I don't see how that's even arguable.

Everything was much better agree completely. Still we lost 11 in a row and came in 9th place. As of now on paper our talent is worse then last year. Why should we be positive?

Yet, big e

Quote from: Foad on April 11, 2018, 05:08:53 PM

Quote from: rdstr25 on April 11, 2018, 04:50:38 PM

Improvement?

From 2017 to 2018, talent is better, coaching is better, defense is better.  That's constitutes improvement. It might not be optimal but this year's team was better than last year's, I don't see how that's even arguable.

Yet big east record was worse.

Had you asked whether the big east record was worse, I'd have answered that question. You didn't. In response to PMG's assertion that the product was improved, you scoffed: "where is the improvement" you said with several exclamation points, like he was a half blind half tard. I told you where the improvement was: in the coaching, in the talent, in the defense. If the only metric for measuring improvement is whether the big east record is better or worse, we don't need you and your "knowledgeable folks" that you're around "at the highest levels" to inform of us that, all we need is a first grade math teacher.

Quote from: Foad on April 11, 2018, 05:08:53 PM

Quote from: rdstr25 on April 11, 2018, 04:50:38 PM

Improvement?

From 2017 to 2018, talent is better, coaching is better, defense is better.  That's constitutes improvement. It might not be optimal but this year's team was better than last year's, I don't see how that's even arguable.

Everything was much better agree completely. Still we lost 11 in a row and came in 9th place. As of now on paper our talent is worse then last year. Why should we be positive?

I didn't say you should be positive - although you should be, what with advances in genetically modified bran and multi ply toilet tissue technology. I just said that this year was better than last year. Moreover, I hope that next year is better than was this. Do you? Or would you rather things got worse so that you could sign onto this important forum while evacuating your bowels to say I told you so. Serious question. Would you rather be right about Mullin stinking and watch SJ lose for another couple of seasons or be wrong and watch them win?

I would rather watch them win. How can they win if we don’t get any players? If we finished the season like we did. Kept yakwe and Owens. Kept brooks who is a player and added juco or grad PG or a 3 star decent PG I would be content for this year. With the expectation that we would recruit hard the 19 class.
Do you believe this team has more talent this coming year then last year at this time? Can’t believe you do.
Your boy is making millions. Not to improve but to win.

We lose AA, Yakwe, Owens, and Ahmed and add Keita, Dixon, Williams, Earlington, and Roberts. That makes us bigger and deeper than last season and fills in the gaping hole at guard.

Keita will almost certainly be a + over Owens, a freshman Roberts will be a wash with a senior AA and will likely defend the center position better, Earlington is a + over Yakwe, and Dixon and Williams are a huge + over Ahmed.

I was one of the most negative posters heading into last season and I'm fine with this roster. I'd be much happier if we could add a true PG and a capable grad big, but I don't see any glaring deficiencies. Dixon will surprise and the trio of Dixon-Williams-Simon will allow Ponds to get some well planned rest around the under eight and/or under 12 timeouts.

We lose AA, Yakwe, Owens, and Ahmed and add Keita, Dixon, Williams, Earlington, and Roberts. That makes us bigger and deeper than last season and fills in the gaping hole at guard.

Keita will almost certainly be a + over Owens, a freshman Roberts will be a wash with a senior AA and will likely defend the center position better, Earlington is a + over Yakwe, and Dixon and Williams are a huge + over Ahmed.

I was one of the most negative posters heading into last season and I'm fine with this roster. I'd be much happier if we could add a true PG and a capable grad big, but I don't see any glaring deficiencies. Dixon will surprise and the trio of Dixon-Williams-Simon will allow Ponds to get some well planned rest around the under eight and/or under 12 timeouts.

I’m not a fan of Owens game too much but there’s no way you can say for sure that Keita will be a huge + over him. In limited playing time at SC Keita didn’t demonstrate the ability to get the ball in the vicinity of the basket and his rebounding numbers were nothing to write home about. Now obviously that’s a small sample size and he’s probably come a long way over the past year but there’s absolutely no way to realistically expect without a doubt that a 3rd year Keita to be a + over a 5th year Owens.

For this upcoming season we should be happy if Keita is equal to Owens but is able to stay out of foul trouble a little better. If we don’t add a grad transfer big and Keita is foul prone then we are going to be in a world of hurt up front again

I don't  pretend to know much about recruiting but do know someone being recruited in 2019 class but not by SJU. He knows and plays a lot with against these local guys, from what I hear the coaches aren't an issue, the families and players actually like the staff but the big problem is the campus, CA, not playing enough at MSG anymore and most importantly just wanting to get away.

I don't  pretend to know much about recruiting but do know someone being recruited in 2019 class but not by SJU. He knows and plays a lot with against these local guys, from what I hear the coaches aren't an issue, the families and players actually like the staff but the big problem is the campus, CA, not playing enough at MSG anymore and most importantly just wanting to get away.

If a kid just wants to get away, that’s fine. It’s not a recent development. As far as MSG, the Grammys got in our way this season. We are not trying to play more of our games at Carnesecca. This ain’t Columbia, but the braintrust isn’t that dumb.

Im just telling you something that I heard that doesn't mean its right. Goff stated during the that he preferred CA as a home court.

Quote from: Marillac on April 12, 2018, 12:45:39 AM

We lose AA, Yakwe, Owens, and Ahmed and add Keita, Dixon, Williams, Earlington, and Roberts. That makes us bigger and deeper than last season and fills in the gaping hole at guard.

Keita will almost certainly be a + over Owens, a freshman Roberts will be a wash with a senior AA and will likely defend the center position better, Earlington is a + over Yakwe, and Dixon and Williams are a huge + over Ahmed.

I was one of the most negative posters heading into last season and I'm fine with this roster. I'd be much happier if we could add a true PG and a capable grad big, but I don't see any glaring deficiencies. Dixon will surprise and the trio of Dixon-Williams-Simon will allow Ponds to get some well planned rest around the under eight and/or under 12 timeouts.

I’m not a fan of Owens game too much but there’s no way you can say for sure that Keita will be a huge + over him. In limited playing time at SC Keita didn’t demonstrate the ability to get the ball in the vicinity of the basket and his rebounding numbers were nothing to write home about. Now obviously that’s a small sample size and he’s probably come a long way over the past year but there’s absolutely no way to realistically expect without a doubt that a 3rd year Keita to be a + over a 5th year Owens.

For this upcoming season we should be happy if Keita is equal to Owens but is able to stay out of foul trouble a little better. If we don’t add a grad transfer big and Keita is foul prone then we are going to be in a world of hurt up front again

There is no way you can say anything in sports "for sure" -- that premise has to be accepted by anyone who wants to engage in a discussion about a player or team's future.

I liked Owens. He hustles and played hard. He blocked shots well too. But he was awful offensively from setting screens with his slight build to rebounding (because he was never around the rim). He also could not body big men down low all. On a list of things I want from a center, blocking shots is not in the top 5. Keita is massive and stays around the basket. That alone might make him better than Owens if he plays D. I'm sure Ponds will love coming off of his screens. And if he has a back to the basket move to space the floor then it's checkmate. Owens knew better than us where he stood against Keita and he fled for a school in west Texas that lost six of its 8 best players. That should tell us all we need to know.

Im just telling you something that I heard that doesn't mean its right. Goff stated during the that he preferred CA as a home court.

I hear ya. Goff is just trying to make people happy. He's got no power.

Quote from: Mullin20 on April 12, 2018, 09:05:50 AM

Im just telling you something that I heard that doesn't mean its right. Goff stated during the that he preferred CA as a home court.

I hear ya. Goff is just trying to make people happy. He's got no power.

He has no power yet.
-He’s only been here for  a little over a year. He has a coach that he didn’t hire, who happens to be the schools biggest legend.
-A program that has been at best treading water for 20 years, with facilities that have been outdated even longer.
-MSG can push the school around because  SJU needs them more than MSG needs them.
-The AD also has a disenfranchised alumni base that he needs more money from.

He has a lot on his plate and he has to tread SJU water lightly...If Mullin picks up an asst. with experience, and has a successful season next year (making the tournament), and Mullin has a solid incoming class for 19.  His job becomes a lot easier.

If 19 collapses his job will be interesting to say the least. I also think  SJU President will be up soon, what happens to him can have a great impact as well.

Do you believe this team has more talent this coming year then last year at this time? Can’t believe you do.

Hard to say. I haven't seen the new players.

Which of these rosters would you take?

RETURNEES

Ponds
Simon
Clark
Trimble

PLUS guys who left

Lovett
Owens
Ahmed
Yakwe
Alibegowitz

OR PLUS new guys

Dixon
Keita
Williams
Brown
Earlington
Diakite


I was not a big Owens fan but no doubt his defection is a big deal. Lovett wasn't on last years roster most of the time and would likely not have returned this year anyway. I liked Ahmed but one one else did. Some people even called him a black hole. KY and AA were essentially worthless, although that had a lot to do with how they were used, or more precisely weren't used.

Depth is better this year on paper. Size is an issue, but it was an issue last year and this year at least there's some bulk: Earlington and Keita weigh 500 pounds between them. Lovett Owens and Ahmed averaged 36 points and 13 rebounds, but that's a little skewed because a lot of what would have been Lovett's shots went to Ahmed and Owens. That's not that much to replace considering they accounted for 60 or 70 minutes a game.

I don't see how this year's roster is worse. It might not be better but I don't see a huge difference and if they add a 5th year big this year's roster is a definite step forward. It's not where you might have hoped Mullin to be after three recruiting cycles but it looks like a team that can be in the upper middle of the BE if things break right - which admittedly at SJ they never do - which is bubble territory. As good old Poison said, everything depends on Ponds anyway. AS he goes next year the team goes.

Quote from: TONYD3 on April 11, 2018, 08:30:24 PM

Do you believe this team has more talent this coming year then last year at this time? Can’t believe you do.

Hard to say. I haven't seen the new players.

Which of these rosters would you take?

RETURNEES

Ponds
Simon
Clark
Trimble

PLUS guys who left

Lovett
Owens
Ahmed
Yakwe
Alibegowitz

OR PLUS new guys

Dixon
Keita
Williams
Brown
Earlington
Diakite


I was not a big Owens fan but no doubt his defection is a big deal. Lovett wasn't on last years roster most of the time and would likely not have returned this year anyway. I liked Ahmed but one one else did. Some people even called him a black hole. KY and AA were essentially worthless, although that had a lot to do with how they were used, or more precisely weren't used.

Depth is better this year on paper. Size is an issue, but it was an issue last year and this year at least there's some bulk: Earlington and Keita weigh 500 pounds between them. Lovett Owens and Ahmed averaged 36 points and 13 rebounds, but that's a little skewed because a lot of what would have been Lovett's shots went to Ahmed and Owens. That's not that much to replace considering they accounted for 60 or 70 minutes a game.

I don't see how this year's roster is worse. It might not be better but I don't see a huge difference and if they add a 5th year big this year's roster is a definite step forward. It's not where you might have hoped Mullin to be after three recruiting cycles but it looks like a team that can be in the upper middle of the BE if things break right - which admittedly at SJ they never do - which is bubble territory. As good old Poison said, everything depends on Ponds anyway. AS he goes next year the team goes.

Ponds is no guarantee to return. Trimble has been rumored to be thinking about transferring, too. That would leave Clark and Simon as the only returning players. As it stands, even if Ponds does return, this is a green team in year four.

Saying that the 6 guys coming in are better than the guys that left isn’t a realistic argument. For starters, we are losing upperclassmen and replacing them with 4 freshman, one sophomore MAAC guard and a sophomore Center who played 12.5 per game. Is there a true sleeper among the four freshman? That’s what it’s come to. We’re back to the Norm Roberts years where every single recruit was a sleeper. I expect Dixon and Keita to contribute, but they need to do a lot more than just contribute. They need to be players from day 1. Hopefully they don’t quit the team before the season starts.

Ponds is no guarantee to return. Trimble has been rumored to be thinking about transferring, too. That would leave Clark and Simon as the only returning players. As it stands, even if Ponds does return, this is a green team in year four.

Saying that the 6 guys coming in are better than the guys that left isn’t a realistic argument. For starters, we are losing upperclassmen and replacing them with 4 freshman, one sophomore MAAC guard and a sophomore Center who played 12.5 per game. Is there a true sleeper among the four freshman? That’s what it’s come to. We’re back to the Norm Roberts years where every single recruit was a sleeper. I expect Dixon and Keita to contribute, but they need to do a lot more than just contribute. They need to be players from day 1. Hopefully they don’t quit the team before the season starts.

Your silver lining has a lot of black cloud: Ponds might leave, Trimble might transfer and the other players might quit before the season starts. Which might all happen and if it did it would be bad. OTOH none of it might happen and Trimble might show up in October having had a nine inch growth spurt. There's lots of things that might happen. I'm happy enough dealing with what actually does.

Anyway, I wasn't really making an argument. I was answering a question: Do you believe this team has more talent this coming year then last year at this time? To which I answered I don't know, I haven't seen them play. Having said that, Keita is a consensus top 100 recruit who played on a Final Four team and has been practicing for a year - which year of practice worked out well for Simon and Clark. Dixon was a conference rookie of the year. Williams is a four star with offers from Bob Huggins and Bruce Pearl. Earlington is a 2nd team all state player. No one's happy that they didn't get better players than they got, but on paper I don't see a terrifying drop off in talent.