Patience/Comparable Rebuilds

I've seen a lot of people on here complainig about Chris Mullin and how they've never seen anybody start this poorly and turn it around. I see growth and potential in this team and this program. So here's a few programs and coaches that were tasked with astronomical rebuilds.

Tom Crean at Indiana. Went 28-66 in his first three seasons and 8-46 in conference play. He was left with two former walk-ons with a combined 36 points between them and and went on to win 20 games in four of the last six seasons with three Sweet 16 appearances.

Gary Williams at Maryland went 91-57 in his first four years and they got worse every single season. He was also 18-42 in conference and got worse every year. They then made the NCAA Tournament every year from 1993-94 to 2003-04 with six Sweet 16 appearances, two Final Fours, and a National Title.

Steve Fisher at San Diego State was 81-97 before regularly making the tournament at San Diego State. His first team won five games and was winless in the conference. They then went 14-14 and 4-10 in conference and then won 21 games, went 500 in conference and made the tournament. Their record then dropped every year for three years after that before winning 20 games every year from 2005-06 until 2016-17.

Scott Drew, with only one year of coaching experience at Valparaiso, took over a Baylor team that went 8-21 (3-13) his first year. They went 9-19 (1-15) in year 2 and 4-13 (4-12) in year 3. Year four saw growth and they went 15-16 (4-12) and then year five they made the Tournament.

Chris Mullin's situation can be aptly compared to Tom Crean's at IU and Scott Drew at Baylor. He's already won as many games in his conference as Tom Crean and Scott Drew did and his overall record is four games better than Crean and 12 wins better than Drew's. I'm not comparing them as coaches. I know Crean and Drew aren't there now but they rebuilt programs. But rebuilds take time and they take patience. You can't expect them to just be off in running in year 3 with a coach who had no head coaching experience. There are going to be growing pains, there was always going to be. This season has been an improvement given the blows we were dealt.

I have no doubt in my mind that, with Lovett, we would be around .500 in conference play right now. I think we would've beat Seton Hall, Georgetown twice, Creighton, and DePaul. This team has fought game in and game out so I don't see anything that shows that they don't want to play for him. They are shorthanded with really only three or four true Big East players (Ponds, Simon, Owens, and Clark) on the roster playing at a time when the Big East might be the strongest it's ever been. 70% of our conference might make the tournament.

This team, if it is able to keep Ponds and Owens is poised to make a serious run at the tournament. There's no excuses next year if they retain Ponds and Owens. They would have capable big men, experience, chemistry, and depth. I just don't understand how we can call Mullin a terrible coach when his teams compete every game against arguably the toughest conference in the country with only eight scholarship players. If one guy is playing with an injury and another gets in to foul trouble, you're playing with 6 scholarship players.

We are currently 3rd in scoring defense, 1st in field goal % defense, 1st in blocks, 1st in steals, 1st in turnover margin. We can't rebound, we can't shoot the 3, we can't defend the 3. Those are the areas we need to fix, but we weren't even close to being 1st in any defensive category last season and we are playing without our, arguably, best defensive player who would've also boosted our assists, our turnovers, and our 3pt%.

These guys have given us their absolute best this season on an almost nightly basis. Expecting the NCAA Tournament was out there to begin with and expecting the NIT without Lovett would've been a crazy expectation as well. I'm not saying we can't criticize the staff or the team, but let's get behind them and show support. Recruits don't want to come to a school where it's dead quiet. Carnesecca can be loud as hell when people actually chant and get into it. But that hardly every happens unless something big is happening. This team and this program are moving in the right direction. We can't throw in the towel yet.

mullin took over a team coming off an ncaa tourney appearance.  the program had 2 nits and 2 ncca appearances over the previous 5 years.  the team had been decent, but we wanted to do more than just make the tournaments, we wanted to advance in them.  I think the expectation was that results would be better under mullin (otherwise why hire him?).  instead, they're getting worse.  mullin's going to get another year, i assume.  hopefully he can turn this thing around. 

mullin took over a team coming off an ncaa tourney appearance.  the program had 2 nits and 2 ncca appearances over the previous 5 years.  the team had been decent, but we wanted to do more than just make the tournaments, we wanted to advance in them.  I think the expectation was that results would be better under mullin (otherwise why hire him?).  instead, they're getting worse.  mullin's going to get another year, i assume.  hopefully he can turn this thing around.

Very true that the team had had some recent success but Mullin inherited about 10% of that team as they all graduated. Mullin had to recruit almost an entire team in like 4 or 5 months. So you can't count that against him.

mullin took over a team coming off an ncaa tourney appearance. 

That's something of an inexact characterization. Mullin took over an NCAA team that graduated 120 minutes and was left with Felix Balamou and Amar Alibeowitz. Lavin took over an team with NCAA talent from Norm. He didn't leave Mullin an NCAA tournament team.

I've seen a lot of people on here complainig about Chris Mullin and how they've never seen anybody start this poorly and turn it around. I see growth and potential in this team and this program. So here's a few programs and coaches that were tasked with astronomical rebuilds.

Tom Crean at Indiana. Went 28-66 in his first three seasons and 8-46 in conference play. He was left with two former walk-ons with a combined 36 points between them and and went on to win 20 games in four of the last six seasons with three Sweet 16 appearances.

Gary Williams at Maryland went 91-57 in his first four years and they got worse every single season. He was also 18-42 in conference and got worse every year. They then made the NCAA Tournament every year from 1993-94 to 2003-04 with six Sweet 16 appearances, two Final Fours, and a National Title.

Steve Fisher at San Diego State was 81-97 before regularly making the tournament at San Diego State. His first team won five games and was winless in the conference. They then went 14-14 and 4-10 in conference and then won 21 games, went 500 in conference and made the tournament. Their record then dropped every year for three years after that before winning 20 games every year from 2005-06 until 2016-17.

Scott Drew, with only one year of coaching experience at Valparaiso, took over a Baylor team that went 8-21 (3-13) his first year. They went 9-19 (1-15) in year 2 and 4-13 (4-12) in year 3. Year four saw growth and they went 15-16 (4-12) and then year five they made the Tournament.

Chris Mullin's situation can be aptly compared to Tom Crean's at IU and Scott Drew at Baylor. He's already won as many games in his conference as Tom Crean and Scott Drew did and his overall record is four games better than Crean and 12 wins better than Drew's. I'm not comparing them as coaches. I know Crean and Drew aren't there now but they rebuilt programs. But rebuilds take time and they take patience. You can't expect them to just be off in running in year 3 with a coach who had no head coaching experience. There are going to be growing pains, there was always going to be. This season has been an improvement given the blows we were dealt.

I have no doubt in my mind that, with Lovett, we would be around .500 in conference play right now. I think we would've beat Seton Hall, Georgetown twice, Creighton, and DePaul. This team has fought game in and game out so I don't see anything that shows that they don't want to play for him. They are shorthanded with really only three or four true Big East players (Ponds, Simon, Owens, and Clark) on the roster playing at a time when the Big East might be the strongest it's ever been. 70% of our conference might make the tournament.

This team, if it is able to keep Ponds and Owens is poised to make a serious run at the tournament. There's no excuses next year if they retain Ponds and Owens. They would have capable big men, experience, chemistry, and depth. I just don't understand how we can call Mullin a terrible coach when his teams compete every game against arguably the toughest conference in the country with only eight scholarship players. If one guy is playing with an injury and another gets in to foul trouble, you're playing with 6 scholarship players.

We are currently 3rd in scoring defense, 1st in field goal % defense, 1st in blocks, 1st in steals, 1st in turnover margin. We can't rebound, we can't shoot the 3, we can't defend the 3. Those are the areas we need to fix, but we weren't even close to being 1st in any defensive category last season and we are playing without our, arguably, best defensive player who would've also boosted our assists, our turnovers, and our 3pt%.

These guys have given us their absolute best this season on an almost nightly basis. Expecting the NCAA Tournament was out there to begin with and expecting the NIT without Lovett would've been a crazy expectation as well. I'm not saying we can't criticize the staff or the team, but let's get behind them and show support. Recruits don't want to come to a school where it's dead quiet. Carnesecca can be loud as hell when people actually chant and get into it. But that hardly every happens unless something big is happening. This team and this program are moving in the right direction. We can't throw in the towel yet.

Great post  - thank you

My biggest critique is that he needs a more experienced game coach sitting on the bench with him...

I think they will be much better next season and would have been in the middle of the pack this year in conf with Lovett on the court

Quote from: apesNapes on January 31, 2018, 03:45:30 PM

mullin took over a team coming off an ncaa tourney appearance. 

That's something of an inexact characterization. Mullin took over an NCAA team that graduated 120 minutes and was left with Felix Balamou and Amar Alibeowitz. Lavin took over an team with NCAA talent from Norm. He didn't leave Mullin an NCAA tournament team.

You know you are absolutely going to hate the next guy.
Like Mullin- what self respecting ST John's fan wouldn't?

Hated Lavin- While I agree in principle with you on most of the Lavin stuff, a little bit of it is irrational.

Loved Norm- This just can't be explained no matter how many times you tried.

Hated Jarvis- Understandable the way it ended, however I think I have noticed just a little thawing in the hatred. Just a little? Time and bad basketball heals all wounds?

Liked Fran?- This one is unclear. Seldom mention him.

Hated Mahoney?- Really just going with every other coach theory on this one.

Liked Louie.

Quote from: johnniesfilmmaker on January 31, 2018, 03:17:08 PM

I've seen a lot of people on here complainig about Chris Mullin and how they've never seen anybody start this poorly and turn it around. I see growth and potential in this team and this program. So here's a few programs and coaches that were tasked with astronomical rebuilds.

Tom Crean at Indiana. Went 28-66 in his first three seasons and 8-46 in conference play. He was left with two former walk-ons with a combined 36 points between them and and went on to win 20 games in four of the last six seasons with three Sweet 16 appearances.

Gary Williams at Maryland went 91-57 in his first four years and they got worse every single season. He was also 18-42 in conference and got worse every year. They then made the NCAA Tournament every year from 1993-94 to 2003-04 with six Sweet 16 appearances, two Final Fours, and a National Title.

Steve Fisher at San Diego State was 81-97 before regularly making the tournament at San Diego State. His first team won five games and was winless in the conference. They then went 14-14 and 4-10 in conference and then won 21 games, went 500 in conference and made the tournament. Their record then dropped every year for three years after that before winning 20 games every year from 2005-06 until 2016-17.

Scott Drew, with only one year of coaching experience at Valparaiso, took over a Baylor team that went 8-21 (3-13) his first year. They went 9-19 (1-15) in year 2 and 4-13 (4-12) in year 3. Year four saw growth and they went 15-16 (4-12) and then year five they made the Tournament.

Chris Mullin's situation can be aptly compared to Tom Crean's at IU and Scott Drew at Baylor. He's already won as many games in his conference as Tom Crean and Scott Drew did and his overall record is four games better than Crean and 12 wins better than Drew's. I'm not comparing them as coaches. I know Crean and Drew aren't there now but they rebuilt programs. But rebuilds take time and they take patience. You can't expect them to just be off in running in year 3 with a coach who had no head coaching experience. There are going to be growing pains, there was always going to be. This season has been an improvement given the blows we were dealt.

I have no doubt in my mind that, with Lovett, we would be around .500 in conference play right now. I think we would've beat Seton Hall, Georgetown twice, Creighton, and DePaul. This team has fought game in and game out so I don't see anything that shows that they don't want to play for him. They are shorthanded with really only three or four true Big East players (Ponds, Simon, Owens, and Clark) on the roster playing at a time when the Big East might be the strongest it's ever been. 70% of our conference might make the tournament.

This team, if it is able to keep Ponds and Owens is poised to make a serious run at the tournament. There's no excuses next year if they retain Ponds and Owens. They would have capable big men, experience, chemistry, and depth. I just don't understand how we can call Mullin a terrible coach when his teams compete every game against arguably the toughest conference in the country with only eight scholarship players. If one guy is playing with an injury and another gets in to foul trouble, you're playing with 6 scholarship players.

We are currently 3rd in scoring defense, 1st in field goal % defense, 1st in blocks, 1st in steals, 1st in turnover margin. We can't rebound, we can't shoot the 3, we can't defend the 3. Those are the areas we need to fix, but we weren't even close to being 1st in any defensive category last season and we are playing without our, arguably, best defensive player who would've also boosted our assists, our turnovers, and our 3pt%.

These guys have given us their absolute best this season on an almost nightly basis. Expecting the NCAA Tournament was out there to begin with and expecting the NIT without Lovett would've been a crazy expectation as well. I'm not saying we can't criticize the staff or the team, but let's get behind them and show support. Recruits don't want to come to a school where it's dead quiet. Carnesecca can be loud as hell when people actually chant and get into it. But that hardly every happens unless something big is happening. This team and this program are moving in the right direction. We can't throw in the towel yet.

Great post  - thank you

My biggest critique is that he needs a more experienced game coach sitting on the bench with him...

I think they will be much better next season and would have been in the middle of the pack this year in conf with Lovett on the court

I think that's more than fair. It seems like Greg St. Jean has a big hand in X's and O's and game plan while Matt is the recruiter. I have no idea what Mitch is doing there. I think if you want to keep Mitch around, he needs to start getting out and recruiting more and you need to hire a person that has more experience than St. Jean in game planning and devising a playbook. Or you have to let Mitch walk and hire an assistant who can handle both duties. We need another recruiter and a person that can handle X's and O's. Matt can handle local recruiting and another can handle more national recruiting.

I've seen a lot of people on here complainig about Chris Mullin and how they've never seen anybody start this poorly and turn it around. I see growth and potential in this team and this program. So here's a few programs and coaches that were tasked with astronomical rebuilds.

Tom Crean at Indiana. Went 28-66 in his first three seasons and 8-46 in conference play. He was left with two former walk-ons with a combined 36 points between them and and went on to win 20 games in four of the last six seasons with three Sweet 16 appearances.

Gary Williams at Maryland went 91-57 in his first four years and they got worse every single season. He was also 18-42 in conference and got worse every year. They then made the NCAA Tournament every year from 1993-94 to 2003-04 with six Sweet 16 appearances, two Final Fours, and a National Title.

Steve Fisher at San Diego State was 81-97 before regularly making the tournament at San Diego State. His first team won five games and was winless in the conference. They then went 14-14 and 4-10 in conference and then won 21 games, went 500 in conference and made the tournament. Their record then dropped every year for three years after that before winning 20 games every year from 2005-06 until 2016-17.

Scott Drew, with only one year of coaching experience at Valparaiso, took over a Baylor team that went 8-21 (3-13) his first year. They went 9-19 (1-15) in year 2 and 4-13 (4-12) in year 3. Year four saw growth and they went 15-16 (4-12) and then year five they made the Tournament.

Chris Mullin's situation can be aptly compared to Tom Crean's at IU and Scott Drew at Baylor. He's already won as many games in his conference as Tom Crean and Scott Drew did and his overall record is four games better than Crean and 12 wins better than Drew's. I'm not comparing them as coaches. I know Crean and Drew aren't there now but they rebuilt programs. But rebuilds take time and they take patience. You can't expect them to just be off in running in year 3 with a coach who had no head coaching experience. There are going to be growing pains, there was always going to be. This season has been an improvement given the blows we were dealt.

I have no doubt in my mind that, with Lovett, we would be around .500 in conference play right now. I think we would've beat Seton Hall, Georgetown twice, Creighton, and DePaul. This team has fought game in and game out so I don't see anything that shows that they don't want to play for him. They are shorthanded with really only three or four true Big East players (Ponds, Simon, Owens, and Clark) on the roster playing at a time when the Big East might be the strongest it's ever been. 70% of our conference might make the tournament.

This team, if it is able to keep Ponds and Owens is poised to make a serious run at the tournament. There's no excuses next year if they retain Ponds and Owens. They would have capable big men, experience, chemistry, and depth. I just don't understand how we can call Mullin a terrible coach when his teams compete every game against arguably the toughest conference in the country with only eight scholarship players. If one guy is playing with an injury and another gets in to foul trouble, you're playing with 6 scholarship players.

We are currently 3rd in scoring defense, 1st in field goal % defense, 1st in blocks, 1st in steals, 1st in turnover margin. We can't rebound, we can't shoot the 3, we can't defend the 3. Those are the areas we need to fix, but we weren't even close to being 1st in any defensive category last season and we are playing without our, arguably, best defensive player who would've also boosted our assists, our turnovers, and our 3pt%.

These guys have given us their absolute best this season on an almost nightly basis. Expecting the NCAA Tournament was out there to begin with and expecting the NIT without Lovett would've been a crazy expectation as well. I'm not saying we can't criticize the staff or the team, but let's get behind them and show support. Recruits don't want to come to a school where it's dead quiet. Carnesecca can be loud as hell when people actually chant and get into it. But that hardly every happens unless something big is happening. This team and this program are moving in the right direction. We can't throw in the towel yet.

Teams are always going to get beat down. But are you seriously not confident that we can be in every single game the rest of the year except maybe Nova on the road, Duke at MSG, and Xavier on the road? I think we can and should be right there with Marquette both times, Seton Hall, Butler once, Creighton, and Marquette twice. I still St. John's could get to 7 wins in conference play if they let Shamorie go to work. Attack the rim, get their bigs in foul trouble, and find a rhythm for him early. If they can do that and also press teams when they start to go on runs, I think the rest of the season will go like this;

@Xavier: L
@ Georgetown: W
Creighton: W
@Butler: L
Xavier: L
Duke: L
@Nova: L
Marquette: W
@DePaul: W
@Marquette: W
Seton Hall: W
Butler: W
@Providence: L

That'd be 7-11 in back to back years and we'd be 17-13. That would put us at a 7 or 8 seed where we could take a Big East Tournament game. You do all that and that should be good enough to make the NIT. Win a game or two in that, bring these kids back (except Lovett because I think he's definitely gone) and come back next year and contend for a Big East title and a Tournament appearance. It's going to be tough, but it's possible to achieve. I'm not done giving up hope on this team. There's no reason to. We've been right there in almost every single game. I think the not knowing if Lovett was going to play or not really hurt the team more than it would if they had just come out and said he was leaving the program.

http://johnnyjungle.com/forum/index.php?topic=10682.msg286864#msg286864

For starters, each coach you named already had coaching experience (as, an assistant and head coach).  Mullin didn't have any type of coaching experience. 

Crean, Williams, and Fisher had quite a bit of success wherever they've coached.  Drew even had a winning record and won the Mid-Continent regular season title (lost in the conference tournament and received an NIT bid) during his one season at Valparaiso.  You're also being disingenious, per Drew's coaching history, as he had been an assistant coach under his dad (Homer Drew) for 9 seasons at Valpo.  His dad had reasonable success at Valpo, and I wouldn't doubt Scott Drew learned a thing or two under his father.

IIRC, Crean succeeded Kelvin Sampson.  I believed recruits were scared off due to believing Indiana would endure hits from the NCAA for Sampson's improprieties.  Crean also recruited a top 10 class during his first, full recruiting cycle.  He also brought in kids like Victor Oladipo and Cody Zellner in back-to-back classes.  Oladipo overachieved, but that could be due to the Indiana's staff eye for talent or helping Oladipo become a better player (or both).  His team's record improved each of his first 5 seasons at Indiana. 

Gary Williams didn't hardly win that many games during his first four years at Maryland.  Williams actually started out somewhat slowly at Maryland after taking over for Bob Wade (who supposedly broke NCAA rules while at Maryland).  Williams "broke out" at Maryland during his 5th season with a group largely made up of freshmen and sophomores (led by frosh, Joe Smith).  Williams started "tailing off" during his last four or five seasons at Maryland.  Even his "tailing off" would look good around these parts.

Steve Fisher, as you mentioned, went to the NCAA Tournament during his 3rd season.  So, he did show an ability to continue to improve his squad during his first 3 seasons.  He had two down years before bringing his team back to the NCAA Tournament.  He's shown or showed a progression at San Diego State.  I can't say the same for Mullin.

Scott Drew also took over a team that was going through a major scandal.  A player was murdered by a teammate, and they were hit with other sanctions, and also lost players during this entire matter.  He's nicely rebounded, if you ask me.  Mullin's situation doesn't even measure to what Drew had to go through with Baylor's basketball program.

Each coach you named had some kinda NCAA "dark cloud" hanging over their heads when they took over their respective jobs, outside of Steve Fisher.  Mullin didn't have to concern himself with potential banishments of any kind.

I've said it before....  Losing is inevitable.  But, we're losing often and in the same manner for the most part.  It's also our style of play.  It's raggedy.  Fundamental flaws.  I've seen very, little (if any) adjustments.  Either our coach/staff is too incompetent or too stubborn and arrogant.  Which is it (rhetorical)?

Hated Lavin- While I agree in principle with you on most of the Lavin stuff, a little bit of it is irrational.

I never claimed to be rational. Lavin failed because he was scared he wasn't going to succeed. He's bulbous headed double chinned walking neurosis who ended his tenure blubbering on the radio like a big girl's blouse. If he were just a little bit more awful I'd pity him, but he's too mediocre even for that. All that's left is contempt.

Loved Norm- This just can't be explained no matter how many times you tried.

I did not love Norm. I recognized that he was in over his head and so defended him against unjust criticism. I did that because he was the only coach SJ has had in 30 years who deserved better than he got.

Hated Jarvis- Understandable the way it ended, however I think I have noticed just a little thawing in the hatred. Just a little? Time and bad basketball heals all wounds?

Hated Jarvis, I just hate Lavin more. The wounds are fresher. Just like you hate your last girlfriend more than the one before her and her more than the one before that.

Liked Fran?- This one is unclear. Seldom mention him.

Didn't mind Fran. Disloyal little dwarf though. Got what he deserved in the end and got it good and hard.

Hated Mahoney?- Really just going with every other coach theory on this one.

No independent memory of the Mahoney years. I think I spent most of those years either drunk or gigging on a cruise ship or gigging drunk on a cruise ship.

Liked Louie.

Liked Lou but couldn't wait for him to get out. I was young then though. I wish I'd appreciated him while he was around. I had no idea it was so difficult to achieve what he achieved.

Again, I don't think this is a rebuild situation. The staff won 8 conference games last year and thought replacing Mussini, Williams and Ellison with Simon and Clark plus an extra year of experience from everyone else would have added to that total without having to make major changes.  They weren't completely unjustified in that thinking. They were then caught with their pants down on the Mussini defection, the cross dresser, Sid, and then Lovett and his father holding the season hostage. Important lessons learned:  Euro kids are risky as fvck. Don't take chances on kids with questionable character. Don't put your season in the hands of a kid that went to four high schools without a rock solid plan B.

Mullin is under no illusion he can go into next season without making big changes. He'll hire a seasoned assistant. He'll scrap this positionless nonsense for more structure.  This is college, given the chance everyone will try to be a guard.

Keita is 6'9 240 and finally gives us legit size. Brooks has as much skill as all the bigs Mullin has had here COMBINED. Let's hope he ends up here as he'll make spacing the floor exponentially easier.

I think the staff learned the hard way that one of the shittiest but but most important aspects of the job in 2018 is re-recruiting your own players year to year.

I'd be willing to bet next season's team will lead the country in conference record turnaround next season if Ponds stays and we can avoid losing more than two players.

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Complete insanity

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 08:18:34 PM

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Complete insanity

He’s right though. We were well on pace for 20 wins this year before everything imploded. 22-25 wins next year ( assuming all known variables are still in place) is very realistic and should be the expectation.

Quote from: goredmen on January 31, 2018, 08:58:19 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 08:18:34 PM

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Complete insanity

He’s right though. We were well on pace for 20 wins this year before everything imploded. 22-25 wins next year ( assuming all known variables are still in place) is very realistic and should be the expectation.

That would mean we would be a top 4 team in the BE next year. We should be happy if we don't have to play on the first day of the BET.

The only way we approach that win total is if 3 or 4 of those wins come in the NIT

Quote from: goredmen on January 31, 2018, 08:58:19 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 08:18:34 PM

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Complete insanity

He’s right though. We were well on pace for 20 wins this year before everything imploded. 22-25 wins next year ( assuming all known variables are still in place) is very realistic and should be the expectation.

More like you agree, rather than him being "right." 

IMO, Mullin may need to make two changes to the staff.  If those changes are made, along with everyone coming back and the newcomers doesn't renege, then there's a chance we could win 20 games.  Regardless, a change on the staff will need to be made, and it'll have to be with someone who'll make a difference.  Otherwise, it'll be more of the same.

By the way, Keita is raw (not directed at you, Eyes).  I don't care anything about his size.  He may have improved during his season off, but to expect much from him is setting yourself up for disappointment.  Maybe, playing last season with Chris Silva rubbed off on him.  We'll see.  I don't have much expectations from Keita next season.

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 08:18:34 PM

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Complete insanity

We'll have depth for the first time. Size for the first time. Experience all over the court. Oh, and the best player in the conference as an upperclassman.

Quote from: goredmen on January 31, 2018, 08:58:19 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 08:18:34 PM

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Complete insanity

We'll have depth for the first time. Size for the first time. Experience all over the court. Oh, and the best player in the conference as an upperclassman.

and...that still might not be enough.

Quote from: Foryoureyesonly88 on January 31, 2018, 09:06:53 PM

Quote from: goredmen on January 31, 2018, 08:58:19 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 08:18:34 PM

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Complete insanity

He’s right though. We were well on pace for 20 wins this year before everything imploded. 22-25 wins next year ( assuming all known variables are still in place) is very realistic and should be the expectation.

More like you agree, rather than him being "right." 

IMO, Mullin may need to make two changes to the staff.  If those changes are made, along with everyone coming back and the newcomers doesn't renege, then there's a chance we could win 20 games.  Regardless, a change on the staff will need to be made, and it'll have to be with someone who'll make a difference.  Otherwise, it'll be more of the same.

By the way, Keita is raw (not directed at you, Eyes).  I don't care anything about his size.  He may have improved during his season off, but to expect much from him is setting yourself up for disappointment.  Maybe, playing last season with Chris Silva rubbed off on him.  We'll see.  I don't have much expectations from Keita next season.

Keita was raw. He also played 10 mpg as a true freshman for a team that made it to the national championship game. I'd like to think we could win 22-25 with him as a third year college player playing 20 mpg. Brooks isn't raw by any measurement. Clark played big minutes in the final four at PF and C. That's not a bad trio. Throw in Simon too in smaller lineups. These kids need be repositioned. Simon and Clark should be combining for 5 offensive boards a game.

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 31, 2018, 09:24:43 PM

Quote from: Foryoureyesonly88 on January 31, 2018, 09:06:53 PM

Quote from: goredmen on January 31, 2018, 08:58:19 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 08:18:34 PM

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Complete insanity

He’s right though. We were well on pace for 20 wins this year before everything imploded. 22-25 wins next year ( assuming all known variables are still in place) is very realistic and should be the expectation.

More like you agree, rather than him being "right." 

IMO, Mullin may need to make two changes to the staff.  If those changes are made, along with everyone coming back and the newcomers doesn't renege, then there's a chance we could win 20 games.  Regardless, a change on the staff will need to be made, and it'll have to be with someone who'll make a difference.  Otherwise, it'll be more of the same.

By the way, Keita is raw (not directed at you, Eyes).  I don't care anything about his size.  He may have improved during his season off, but to expect much from him is setting yourself up for disappointment.  Maybe, playing last season with Chris Silva rubbed off on him.  We'll see.  I don't have much expectations from Keita next season.

Keita was raw. He also played 10 mpg as a true freshman for a team that made it to the national championship game. I'd like to think we could win 22-25 with him as a third year college player playing 20 mpg. Brooks isn't raw by any measurement. Clark played big minutes in the final four at PF and C. That's not a bad trio. Throw in Simon too in smaller lineups. These kids need be repositioned. Simon and Clark should be combining for 5 offensive boards a game.

You're a game off....  They made it to the Final Four.  I don't care if he played 20 minutes last season.  He's still raw.  Until, he show me something, then I'm not particularly counting on him giving us much. 

Brooks isn't raw, and I expect for him to help us right out of the gate.  But, he'll still be a freshman.  He's a talented kid, no doubt.  But, he's not a top 25 player.  I believe Brooks will certainly play well, but he'll also likely have his up's and down's throughout the course of the season.

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 09:27:42 PM

Quote from: goredmen on January 31, 2018, 08:58:19 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 08:18:34 PM

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Complete insanity

We'll have depth for the first time. Size for the first time. Experience all over the court. Oh, and the best player in the conference as an upperclassman.

and...that still might not be enough.

Concur.  I'm an optimistic dude, but I'm not buying any of it until..... 

Again, I don't think this is a rebuild situation. The staff won 8 conference games last year and thought replacing Mussini, Williams and Ellison with Simon and Clark plus an extra year of experience from everyone else would have added to that total without having to make major changes.  They weren't completely unjustified in that thinking. They were then caught with their pants down on the Mussini defection, the cross dresser, Sid, and then Lovett and his father holding the season hostage. Important lessons learned:  Euro kids are risky as fvck. Don't take chances on kids with questionable character. Don't put your season in the hands of a kid that went to four high schools without a rock solid plan B.

Mullin is under no illusion he can go into next season without making big changes. He'll hire a seasoned assistant. He'll scrap this positionless nonsense for more structure.  This is college, given the chance everyone will try to be a guard.

Keita is 6'9 240 and finally gives us legit size. Brooks has as much skill as all the bigs Mullin has had here COMBINED. Let's hope he ends up here as he'll make spacing the floor exponentially easier.

I think the staff learned the hard way that one of the shittiest but but most important aspects of the job in 2018 is re-recruiting your own players year to year.

I'd be willing to bet next season's team will lead the country in conference record turnaround next season if Ponds stays and we can avoid losing more than two players.

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Peyote happy hour Marillac?