Patience/Comparable Rebuilds

Quote from: austour on February 01, 2018, 02:37:42 PM

Quote from: johnniesfilmmaker on February 01, 2018, 12:50:35 PM

Quote from: rdstr25 on February 01, 2018, 12:21:40 PM

Quote from: johnniesfilmmaker on February 01, 2018, 11:13:39 AM

Quote from: fordham96 on January 31, 2018, 10:02:58 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 09:27:42 PM

Quote from: goredmen on January 31, 2018, 08:58:19 PM

Quote from: Marillac on January 31, 2018, 08:18:34 PM

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Complete insanity

We'll have depth for the first time. Size for the first time. Experience all over the court. Oh, and the best player in the conference as an upperclassman.

Couple of things.  I do think SJU can have a big turnaround next year.  But more importantly they will have to, there is no way he can win 7 league games next year and claim it was an improvement based on this year being a disaster.  Again he does not get the benefit of the doubt like he did after year 1.  He does not get to benefit from a disaster this year.  The year 4 expectations still remain.  As I said it is a two year plan now with a HUGE jump next year expected and then year 5 competing with Nova.  So I like your enthusiasm...

...but you are way  overstating things.  You are saying SJU will have depth and some frontcourt talent for the first time, that doesn't guarantee anything.  As you know the other 9 teams are not standing still.  They will have talent and depth and the idea that SJU is going to jump 10-11 wins based simply on extra bodies is a bit of a leap of faith.

Secondly you are giving WAAAYYY too much credit for last year's 8 wins.  Again if you count the BE Tourney they were 8-12.  All 12 losses weren't close.  They had zero chance to win any of them.  They won I counted 4 games that could have gone either way, both wins against Georgetown at MSG, road win at DePaul and the Butler game at Carnesecca.  They won every one, quite frankly they were probably closer to 6-14 than say 10-10.  Put it to you another way, they probably didn't improve as much as we thought last year.  So don't put too much stock in last year's record.  In fact if anything some of those close wins last year are starting to even out this year with losses.  Since they really had no close losses last year.

Lastly, Ponds the best player next year in the BE??  Hopefully he improves but right now based on production and the fact the teams they play on are simply more successful I would put Markus Howard of Marquette, Jalen Brunson/Mikal Bridges/Omari Spellman/Phil Booth/Donte D all have eligiblity for Nova left after this year., Kamar Baldwin of Butler is a terrific player, Kyri Thomas of Creighton is averagine 14.6 while shooting over 50% and is a Junior.  I think Shamorie can be one of the best guards in the BE next year but I have to see a LOT more consistency to actually say he is the best returning player in the BE.  Not sure how other than SJU hype machine can anyone actually say that at this point.

Lastly when teams have had HUGE 1 year turnarounds, Minnesota last year, Oklahoma this year, it usually has been accompanied by a big time national talent joining the program.  Amir Coffey with Minny and Trae Yound with Oklahoma.  There is no one on SJU's roster that has that type of talent.  But no doubt they should be improved but more importantly they expect to be SIGNIFICANTLY improved (remember the 2 year plan starts next year) and even more important than that they BETTER be significantly better next year...

It's odd that you site last year's record and say we weren't close in any of the losses. But we've been close in all but three games this season. We could just as easily be 8-3 in conference play this year if we had more depth and experience. We're so much more competitive this year over last year.

How much more experience do you want?  We have 6 guys playing that have been in college for 3 years or more.  Would you like to start 5 5th year seniors to have enough experience?  If you are talking coaching, thats a different story

Tariq Owens has started in 29 games over three years. This is the first season he's started more than eight. That's not a lot of experience.  This is the first time Marvin Clark has started more than 7 games. Justin Simon started zero games before coming here. Bashir Ahmed is in his second season. The only guys with real experience are Ponds and Yakwe. Sitting out a year isn't experience. I want guys who've averaged more than 15 minutes per game before this year (so add Owens to the list of experienced players). It's also a team that is largely playing only their second year together. That's not experience. I want a team that's largely played 3 years together

Here's the amount of minutes played before this season:
Owens: 815
Clark; 729
Simon: 180
Ponds: 1,109
Ahmed: 881
Yakwe: 1,284
Alibegovic: 978

That's 5,976 minutes from seven guys. Those seven average 284 minutes over last three years

Now here's Villanova
Brunson: 2,077
Bridges: 1,886
DiVincenzo: 919
Booth: 1,468
Paschall (a transfer): 1,623

That's 7,973 from five guys and they are supplanted by freshman. Those five average 531 minutes over the last three years.

That's a difference of 1,997 total minutes. Obviously skill is a factor and I'm not saying that if we had the experience that Villanova had we'd be Villanova. All I'm saying is, the actual in-game experience of our time is very weak.

SO what you're saying is these guys aren't Nova.  Thanks for that.

You're welcome. But if you could read all the way through, I already told you that we aren't Villanova. But a team with more experience would likely garner greater results. Just because we have guys who have been in school 3 or more years doesn't mean we have experience if most of that time was spent playing minimal minutes and sitting out a year.

Actually a team with better players and better coaching would garner better results.   Sure the best thing about underclassmen is that they grow up to be upperclassmen but you also can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, especially if you don't even know how to sew. 

Quote from: we are sju on February 01, 2018, 04:55:17 PM

I must admit I like Stephen King.

I'm sorry to hear that. PM me your address and I'll send you a copy of Blood Meridian. Once you go Cormac you never go back.

Read No country for Old men and the Road. Liked No Country, the Road not so much.
I know they say Blood Meridian his best, Will give it a shot.
Ever try Larry McMurtry?
Lonesome Dove is my favorite book.

I used to park in Jarvis’s parking spot. We became friendly. When I think of him I remember beating duke. I remember crazy allyopps to postell. I remember being good. It didn’t last. But it was fun. Good coaches can win in jamica queens.

Quote from: Foad on February 01, 2018, 05:38:11 PM

Quote from: goredmen on February 01, 2018, 05:35:02 PM

Mike Dunlap's record in D1 is terrible and he was the guy that figured out how to win with Norm's players with an idiot as head coach.

Mike Dunlap sucks and Jim Crews is a genius, is that your final answer? Do you want a lifeline?

I was praising the job Mike Dunlap did here. I don't see how you thought I said he sucked from what I wrote there. Try reading it again.

Okay. So you're saying that Dunlap was not a good HC but was a good assistant and therefore Crews is not necessarily a bad choice as AC simply because he failed as a HC.  That is not an arguable point and to the extent I argued it was I stand corrected.

Question: how often have you seen teams coached by Jim Crews play? I don't watch college BB anymore and the last time I saw Army play Lou scheduled them.

This team has legit big east players

This team has two legit BE starters: Ponds and Simon. Clarke is sixth or seventh man on a real team as is Owens. Trimble is a freshman who will be a good four year player. Ahmed is what he is. Yakwe is a disappointing  enigma and Alibeowitz is garbage. Maybe that's all on Mullin. But if you have two BE players in a league where everyone else has six or seven BE players, it's hard to compete.

What is he going to do to get shots for ponds

How many plays would he have to run for Ponds to beat dewk and what would they be? Do they have an 11 point shot in college basketball? Dook has nine five star recruits on their roster. St John's has to hope Amar Alibegowitx  knocks down a bunch of threes to cover the 15 point spread. Maybe that's an X and O issue, but I don't see it.

Is it a personal thing or do you actually view Jarvis as a better coach at St Johns then Lavin?  No sense in dragging up the merits of lavin as a coach as you and I obviously fall on opposite ends of that spectrum. If you're straight up comparing lavin to Jarvis though you're talking one guy who had, at worst,  moderate success vs another guy who paid players and had a player sex scandal under his watch leading to us being on probation/ sanctions.

It's definitely personal.

You're kind of though mixing apples and oranges. Purely based on his results - sans probation - Jarhead was clearly more successful than Lavin. Elite eight, NIT championship versus one post season victory, no contest. Purely based on the the number of rapes and assaults under each Lavin was clearly better than Jarvis. He only recruited one  murderer, whereas Jarvis recruited several rapists, a woman beater and a crack dealer. I was very happy when both were hired and ended up hating each of them. Asking me which one I hated more is like asking a parent which one of their children they love less. They both sucked. If you're asking me today to choose one Jarvis sucked less because his sucking has receded farther in time.

Read No country for Old men and the Road. Liked No Country, the Road not so much.
I know they say Blood Meridian his best, Will give it a shot.

Blood Meridian is the shit. Outer Dark is good, Child of God as well. I didn't like the road, it made me nervous.

Ever try Larry McMurtry?
Lonesome Dove is my favorite book.

Not a fan on first reading, Mrs fun loves him though. I promised her to give him a second look.

Quote from: colelatshaw2010 on February 01, 2018, 07:21:41 PM

Is it a personal thing or do you actually view Jarvis as a better coach at St Johns then Lavin?  No sense in dragging up the merits of lavin as a coach as you and I obviously fall on opposite ends of that spectrum. If you're straight up comparing lavin to Jarvis though you're talking one guy who had, at worst,  moderate success vs another guy who paid players and had a player sex scandal under his watch leading to us being on probation/ sanctions.

It's definitely personal.

You're kind of though mixing apples and oranges. Purely based on his results - sans probation - Jarhead was clearly more successful than Lavin. Elite eight, NIT championship versus one post season victory, no contest. Purely based on the the number of rapes and assaults under each Lavin was clearly better than Jarvis. He only recruited one  murderer, whereas Jarvis recruited several rapists, a woman beater and a crack dealer. I was very happy when both were hired and ended up hating each of them. Asking me which one I hated more is like asking a parent which one of their children they love less. They both sucked. If you're asking me today to choose one Jarvis sucked less because his sucking has receded farther in time.

Jarvis did not recruit a single player who had given any of us reason to believe that they would turn out the way they did. A fair point can be made that firing him was the biggest mistake St.John’s has made in 15 years. 

Sharif Fordham was a quality role player as a Johnny. That’s all he was when he was here as far we knew. He’s paid his debt. Why harp on him? You’re a dick. That’s why. And why is Jarvis accountable for what Fordham did after St.John’s? Plenty of athletes get in trouble with the law after college. It’s the coach’s fault? Is Lou Carnesecca responsible for Jayson Williams? Is Fran Fraschilla responsible for Ron Artest? 

Oh, and there was an iPhone recording. Disgusting? Sure. Consensual? That was proven.

Quote from: TONYD3 on February 01, 2018, 05:47:44 PM

This team has legit big east players

This team has two legit BE starters: Ponds and Simon. Clarke is sixth or seventh man on a real team as is Owens. Trimble is a freshman who will be a good four year player. Ahmed is what he is. Yakwe is a disappointing  enigma and Alibeowitz is garbage. Maybe that's all on Mullin. But if you have two BE players in a league where everyone else has six or seven BE players, it's hard to compete.

Quote

What is he going to do to get shots for ponds

How many plays would he have to run for Ponds to beat dewk and what would they be? Do they have an 11 point shot in college basketball? Dook has nine five star recruits on their roster. St John's has to hope Amar Alibegowitx  knocks down a bunch of threes to cover the 15 point spread. Maybe that's an X and O issue, but I don't see it.

Agree with most. Duke is better. Still their should be a game plan. If Owens, Ahmed, and Clarke are launching 3’s all day. That’s just bad. I am going Saturday. Maybe a miracle.

Quote from: goredmen on February 01, 2018, 05:40:31 PM

Quote from: Foad on February 01, 2018, 05:38:11 PM

Quote from: goredmen on February 01, 2018, 05:35:02 PM

Mike Dunlap's record in D1 is terrible and he was the guy that figured out how to win with Norm's players with an idiot as head coach.

Mike Dunlap sucks and Jim Crews is a genius, is that your final answer? Do you want a lifeline?

I was praising the job Mike Dunlap did here. I don't see how you thought I said he sucked from what I wrote there. Try reading it again.

Okay. So you're saying that Dunlap was not a good HC but was a good assistant and therefore Crews is not necessarily a bad choice as AC simply because he failed as a HC.  That is not an arguable point and to the extent I argued it was I stand corrected.

Question: how often have you seen teams coached by Jim Crews play? I don't watch college BB anymore and the last time I saw Army play Lou scheduled them.

The thing you may not be able to understand is that you can be the best basketball coach that ever lived but if your players stink you aren’t going to win. That’s what happened to Jim Crews at St Louis and that is what is happening to Mike Dunlap right now. Are either of them the best basketball coach ever? No. But they are smart basketball guys and if you give them decent players they will win games.

You seem to be so caught up in records and basic stats yet you are so resistant to change when it comes to a staff that is 7-22 in the big east the last 2 years and stick up for the players that have played to that record

An outlier.

Sharif Fordham was a quality role player as a Johnny. That’s all he was when he was here as far we knew. He’s paid his debt. Why harp on him?

I didn't harp on him, I mentioned him in passing. I didn't even mention his name

You’re a dick.

And you're an ignorant cunt. What's your point.

And why is Jarvis accountable for what Fordham did after St.John’s?

Because Jarvis is motivational speaker who wrote a book called Skills for Life that explained how the life lessons he taught created student athletes who were prepared for future success as crack dealers community leaders. That's why.

Plenty of athletes get in trouble with the law after college. It’s the coach’s fault? Is Lou Carnesecca responsible for Jayson Williams? Is Fran Fraschilla responsible for Ron Artest? 

This is a stupid question by a stupid person, Which is par for your course. Some teachers are responsible for the transgressions of their students, just as some teachers are flattered by their students successes. I wouldn't necessarily blame the teachers at Scarsdale Middle School for your being a nice person. At least not without more information.

The thing you may not be able to understand is that

<hose>

Yeah no, actually I'm pretty good at understanding stuff.  But I'll play along. What epiphanies do you have for me. Let me bate my breath.

you can be the best basketball coach that ever lived but if your players stink you aren’t going to win.

Oh okay, thanks Tesla. Let me write that down. If your players stink, you aren't going to win. That certainly was worth waiting for.

You seem to be so caught up in records and basic stats

Right, caught up in basic stats. As opposed to the sort of Ken Hemmoroid advanced cybermetrics that explain why Justin Simon is the worst player on Rhode Island and that Artsiom Parakhouski was a better basketball player than Anthony Davis and Kemba Walker.

yyou are so resistant to change when it comes to a staff that is 7-22 in the big east the last 2 years and stick up for the players that have played to that record

I'm not resistant to change. I'm resistant to Jim Crews to the extent that I know who Jim Crews is, because if you are what your record is, Jim Crews sucks. I'll cop to sticking up for the players though, they're children and I'm all about the children. Except Federico Mussini obviously, he should have been deported.

I am going Saturday. Maybe a miracle.

Cool. I'll meet you by the men's room near section 219 at halftime. Bring sandwiches.

I'm not resistant to change. I'm resistant to Jim Crews to the extent that I know who Jim Crews is, because if you are what your record is, Jim Crews sucks. I'll cop to sticking up for the players though, they're children and I'm all about the children. Except Federico Mussini obviously, he should have been deported.

im Crews has a .516 winning percentage as a division 1 head coach. Our current staff has a .364 winning percentage. So after carrying the one, it appears that Crews would be a major upgrade than whoever he'd replace on the current staff.

But again, your logic is that even though Rhode Island is better than St John's in every facet of basketball this year, St John's has better players and Danny Hurley is not good enough to coach here. Shows what we're dealing with

Quote from: TONYD3 on February 01, 2018, 08:32:27 PM

I am going Saturday. Maybe a miracle.

Cool. I'll meet you by the men's room near section 219 at halftime. Bring sandwiches.

Will be there. What do older gentleman like to drink ? Want to make it special

Quote from: colelatshaw2010 on February 01, 2018, 07:21:41 PM

Is it a personal thing or do you actually view Jarvis as a better coach at St Johns then Lavin?  No sense in dragging up the merits of lavin as a coach as you and I obviously fall on opposite ends of that spectrum. If you're straight up comparing lavin to Jarvis though you're talking one guy who had, at worst,  moderate success vs another guy who paid players and had a player sex scandal under his watch leading to us being on probation/ sanctions.

It's definitely personal.

You're kind of though mixing apples and oranges. Purely based on his results - sans probation - Jarhead was clearly more successful than Lavin. Elite eight, NIT championship versus one post season victory, no contest. Purely based on the the number of rapes and assaults under each Lavin was clearly better than Jarvis. He only recruited one  murderer, whereas Jarvis recruited several rapists, a woman beater and a crack dealer. I was very happy when both were hired and ended up hating each of them. Asking me which one I hated more is like asking a parent which one of their children they love less. They both sucked. If you're asking me today to choose one Jarvis sucked less because his sucking has receded farther in time.

Sans probation lol good one.  I'm pretty sure most of the accomplishments you listed for Jarvis were vacated.

Also,  Rysheed technically skipped his finals and shot at a guy while under Mullin's watch.

Quote from: Poison on February 01, 2018, 08:26:51 PM

Sharif Fordham was a quality role player as a Johnny. That’s all he was when he was here as far we knew. He’s paid his debt. Why harp on him?

I didn't harp on him, I mentioned him in passing. I didn't even mention his name

Quote

You’re a dick.

And you're an ignorant cunt. What's your point.

Quote

And why is Jarvis accountable for what Fordham did after St.John’s?

Because Jarvis is motivational speaker who wrote a book called Skills for Life that explained how the life lessons he taught created student athletes who were prepared for future success as crack dealers community leaders. That's why.

Quote

Plenty of athletes get in trouble with the law after college. It’s the coach’s fault? Is Lou Carnesecca responsible for Jayson Williams? Is Fran Fraschilla responsible for Ron Artest? 

This is a stupid question by a stupid person, Which is par for your course. Some teachers are responsible for the transgressions of their students, just as some teachers are flattered by their students successes. I wouldn't necessarily blame the teachers at Scarsdale Middle School for your being a nice person. At least not without more information.

I see. So in some cases it’s ok to blame the coach for the lives his players lead post college. But not in all cases. Thanks for clarifying that so a stupid person like myself can follow along.

Here is my take on Jarvis.  I loved Elite 8 team. It was my favorite ST John's team. No matter how it ended I can't hate the coach of my favorite ST John's team even if he is the reason Norm Roberts was thrust on us.

Here is my take on Lavin. First year he was able to remove the Norm stench. I can never hate him just because of that. I agree with all of the complaints about him and while he was here he annoyed me like no other coach outside of Norm. Unlike Chris Mullin who I am not sure he can do this job, you get the feeling that Lavin was his own worst enemy and a couple of those years we could have been better. Basically what UCLA fans had said about him.

My take on Mullin. School took a shot and had faith in its greatest player. It is not like we are a program that has had any success and was taking a big gamble. It is not like Coke messing with its formula and inventing New Coke. We are the Mellow Yellow of College basketball. Two 1st round tourney appearances in the 11 years under the two coaches preceding Mullin. Hope it works out next year. Doubt it will. And I doubt very much Brown or Cluess will do much better.