NIT

Quote from: Marillac on March 02, 2018, 07:01:39 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 02, 2018, 05:43:50 PM

Quote from: Marillac on March 02, 2018, 04:40:02 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 02, 2018, 01:04:22 PM

Quote from: Marillac on March 02, 2018, 12:55:03 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 01, 2018, 06:21:34 PM

Quote from: braintrust on March 01, 2018, 06:09:38 PM

With the need for a .500 record or better to qualify for the NIT, are we looking at the Providence game as a play-in for the NIT? Win and we are guaranteed a .500 record, lose and we would have to win two BE Tournament games.

Obviously we'd have to pull a UCONN to get into NCAAs.

Even if we win 2 more games this season and finish .500 (unlikely), we'd be far from a lock to make it.

False. Two more wins and we'd be an absolute lock and probably get a pretty good seed.

Ok, so considering that .500 is no longer a requirement to make the NIT and hasn't been for 12 years now, if we are an absolute lock with 2 more wins we should at the very least be comfortable to get in regardless, right?

I don't follow your logic. Two more wins means either a road win over a top 40 RPI team and a neutral court win + a game against Xavier OR a loss @Providence and two neutral court Big East Tournament wins...one being Xavier. Our RPI would be low to mid 60's. We'd be a lock.

Two losses would knock our RPI down to 90. No way we'd be in. That's almost a 30 point RPI swing. It's not just wins and losses.

If we beat Prov + Gtown then lose to X it would depend how many automatic bids are in the NIT. If there's 15 like there were two years ago that leaves 17 at large NIT spots. At quick glance I count 13 teams that would get in over us without question, and I'm probably missing a couple. That makes us an NIT bubble team. If there are only 10 automatic bids then obviously a much better spot but still no lock.

This will probably end up being moot anyway

You are just flat out wrong. Two more wins and we are not only in, but we are a high seed. It's really not even debatable. Our resume would be insane for the NIT.

So you're saying a team that is 1 game over .500 with only 2 good wins the entire season would have an insane resume? That's clueless. Our resume would be about on par with Boston College's. Yes, we have 2 REALLY good wins, but other bubble/NIT teams have good wins too, and they didn't lose 11 in a row with one of those being to DePaul and 2 to Georgetown.

Washington, UCLA, Nebraska, Marquette, Syracuse, Miss State, LSU, Penn State, Oregon, Oklahoma State, Texas, Boise State are all teams on the wrong side of the bubble that clearly have better resumes than us even if we pick up 2 more wins.

Maryland, Boston College, Georgia, Notre Dame, San Diego State and maybe even Western Kentucky would be about on par with us probably among a couple others.

Insane for the NIT. The N effing IT!! 68 teams make the dance now. That amounts to 50-55 of the top 75 RPI teams. Our RPI is 82 and would be in the 60's with two more wins. 32 teams make the NIT and half of the regular season conference champs (like Rider) are top 85 RPI teams anyway.

We have a top 10 SOS. We will have played SIX games against top five RPI team with two more wins! And we won at least two already with three losses within 7 pts. How many NIT teams ever do that? You don't get left out of the NIT with an RPI in the 60's. And the semi-finals and finals are held in MSG and we are, for better or worse, the NIT kings. No matter what anyone says,  that means a lot.

This convo is probably pointless because Providence will beat us by 20 if Ponds isn't playing.

Quote from: Marillac on March 02, 2018, 07:01:39 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 02, 2018, 05:43:50 PM

Quote from: Marillac on March 02, 2018, 04:40:02 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 02, 2018, 01:04:22 PM

Quote from: Marillac on March 02, 2018, 12:55:03 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 01, 2018, 06:21:34 PM

Quote from: braintrust on March 01, 2018, 06:09:38 PM

With the need for a .500 record or better to qualify for the NIT, are we looking at the Providence game as a play-in for the NIT? Win and we are guaranteed a .500 record, lose and we would have to win two BE Tournament games.

Obviously we'd have to pull a UCONN to get into NCAAs.

Even if we win 2 more games this season and finish .500 (unlikely), we'd be far from a lock to make it.

False. Two more wins and we'd be an absolute lock and probably get a pretty good seed.

Ok, so considering that .500 is no longer a requirement to make the NIT and hasn't been for 12 years now, if we are an absolute lock with 2 more wins we should at the very least be comfortable to get in regardless, right?

I don't follow your logic. Two more wins means either a road win over a top 40 RPI team and a neutral court win + a game against Xavier OR a loss @Providence and two neutral court Big East Tournament wins...one being Xavier. Our RPI would be low to mid 60's. We'd be a lock.

Two losses would knock our RPI down to 90. No way we'd be in. That's almost a 30 point RPI swing. It's not just wins and losses.

If we beat Prov + Gtown then lose to X it would depend how many automatic bids are in the NIT. If there's 15 like there were two years ago that leaves 17 at large NIT spots. At quick glance I count 13 teams that would get in over us without question, and I'm probably missing a couple. That makes us an NIT bubble team. If there are only 10 automatic bids then obviously a much better spot but still no lock.

This will probably end up being moot anyway

You are just flat out wrong. Two more wins and we are not only in, but we are a high seed. It's really not even debatable. Our resume would be insane for the NIT.

So you're saying a team that is 1 game over .500 with only 2 good wins the entire season would have an insane resume? That's clueless. Our resume would be about on par with Boston College's. Yes, we have 2 REALLY good wins, but other bubble/NIT teams have good wins too, and they didn't lose 11 in a row with one of those being to DePaul and 2 to Georgetown.

Washington, UCLA, Nebraska, Marquette, Syracuse, Miss State, LSU, Penn State, Oregon, Oklahoma State, Texas, Boise State are all teams on the wrong side of the bubble that clearly have better resumes than us even if we pick up 2 more wins.

Maryland, Boston College, Georgia, Notre Dame, San Diego State and maybe even Western Kentucky would be about on par with us probably among a couple others.

Boston College has a 98 RPI and a 71 SOS
San Diego St. has a 100 RPI and a 123 SOS
Oklahoma St. has a 96 RPI and a 61 SOS
LSU has a 91 RPI and a 50 SOS

We have an 83 RPI and 9 SOS.

You are out of your mind if you think we aren't CLEARLY ahead of those teams.

Quote from: goredmen on March 02, 2018, 07:49:39 PM

Quote from: Marillac on March 02, 2018, 07:01:39 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 02, 2018, 05:43:50 PM

Quote from: Marillac on March 02, 2018, 04:40:02 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 02, 2018, 01:04:22 PM

Quote from: Marillac on March 02, 2018, 12:55:03 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 01, 2018, 06:21:34 PM

Quote from: braintrust on March 01, 2018, 06:09:38 PM

With the need for a .500 record or better to qualify for the NIT, are we looking at the Providence game as a play-in for the NIT? Win and we are guaranteed a .500 record, lose and we would have to win two BE Tournament games.

Obviously we'd have to pull a UCONN to get into NCAAs.

Even if we win 2 more games this season and finish .500 (unlikely), we'd be far from a lock to make it.

False. Two more wins and we'd be an absolute lock and probably get a pretty good seed.

Ok, so considering that .500 is no longer a requirement to make the NIT and hasn't been for 12 years now, if we are an absolute lock with 2 more wins we should at the very least be comfortable to get in regardless, right?

I don't follow your logic. Two more wins means either a road win over a top 40 RPI team and a neutral court win + a game against Xavier OR a loss @Providence and two neutral court Big East Tournament wins...one being Xavier. Our RPI would be low to mid 60's. We'd be a lock.

Two losses would knock our RPI down to 90. No way we'd be in. That's almost a 30 point RPI swing. It's not just wins and losses.

If we beat Prov + Gtown then lose to X it would depend how many automatic bids are in the NIT. If there's 15 like there were two years ago that leaves 17 at large NIT spots. At quick glance I count 13 teams that would get in over us without question, and I'm probably missing a couple. That makes us an NIT bubble team. If there are only 10 automatic bids then obviously a much better spot but still no lock.

This will probably end up being moot anyway

You are just flat out wrong. Two more wins and we are not only in, but we are a high seed. It's really not even debatable. Our resume would be insane for the NIT.

So you're saying a team that is 1 game over .500 with only 2 good wins the entire season would have an insane resume? That's clueless. Our resume would be about on par with Boston College's. Yes, we have 2 REALLY good wins, but other bubble/NIT teams have good wins too, and they didn't lose 11 in a row with one of those being to DePaul and 2 to Georgetown.

Washington, UCLA, Nebraska, Marquette, Syracuse, Miss State, LSU, Penn State, Oregon, Oklahoma State, Texas, Boise State are all teams on the wrong side of the bubble that clearly have better resumes than us even if we pick up 2 more wins.

Maryland, Boston College, Georgia, Notre Dame, San Diego State and maybe even Western Kentucky would be about on par with us probably among a couple others.

Boston College has a 98 RPI and a 71 SOS
San Diego St. has a 100 RPI and a 123 SOS
Oklahoma St. has a 96 RPI and a 61 SOS
LSU has a 91 RPI and a 50 SOS

We have an 83 RPI and 9 SOS.

You are out of your mind if you think we aren't CLEARLY ahead of those teams.

You keep bringing up RPI and SOS like they are the holy grail. They aren't. In fact, those factors are deemphasized in favor of their new quadrant wins criteria. We have 2 quadrant 1 wins and 1 quadrant 2 win, so only 3 wins combined in quadrants 1 and 2. That's pretty weak and not clearly ahead of anybody.

Boston College has 2 Q1 wins and 2 Q2 wins
Oklahoma St has 3 Q1 wins and 2 Q2 wins
LSU has SIX Q1 wins and 1 Q2 win

So yeah, if anybody is clearly ahead, it's those teams over us.

Quote from: Marillac on March 03, 2018, 01:17:05 AM

Quote from: goredmen on March 02, 2018, 07:49:39 PM

Quote from: Marillac on March 02, 2018, 07:01:39 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 02, 2018, 05:43:50 PM

Quote from: Marillac on March 02, 2018, 04:40:02 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 02, 2018, 01:04:22 PM

Quote from: Marillac on March 02, 2018, 12:55:03 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 01, 2018, 06:21:34 PM

Quote from: braintrust on March 01, 2018, 06:09:38 PM

With the need for a .500 record or better to qualify for the NIT, are we looking at the Providence game as a play-in for the NIT? Win and we are guaranteed a .500 record, lose and we would have to win two BE Tournament games.

Obviously we'd have to pull a UCONN to get into NCAAs.

Even if we win 2 more games this season and finish .500 (unlikely), we'd be far from a lock to make it.

False. Two more wins and we'd be an absolute lock and probably get a pretty good seed.

Ok, so considering that .500 is no longer a requirement to make the NIT and hasn't been for 12 years now, if we are an absolute lock with 2 more wins we should at the very least be comfortable to get in regardless, right?

I don't follow your logic. Two more wins means either a road win over a top 40 RPI team and a neutral court win + a game against Xavier OR a loss @Providence and two neutral court Big East Tournament wins...one being Xavier. Our RPI would be low to mid 60's. We'd be a lock.

Two losses would knock our RPI down to 90. No way we'd be in. That's almost a 30 point RPI swing. It's not just wins and losses.

If we beat Prov + Gtown then lose to X it would depend how many automatic bids are in the NIT. If there's 15 like there were two years ago that leaves 17 at large NIT spots. At quick glance I count 13 teams that would get in over us without question, and I'm probably missing a couple. That makes us an NIT bubble team. If there are only 10 automatic bids then obviously a much better spot but still no lock.

This will probably end up being moot anyway

You are just flat out wrong. Two more wins and we are not only in, but we are a high seed. It's really not even debatable. Our resume would be insane for the NIT.

So you're saying a team that is 1 game over .500 with only 2 good wins the entire season would have an insane resume? That's clueless. Our resume would be about on par with Boston College's. Yes, we have 2 REALLY good wins, but other bubble/NIT teams have good wins too, and they didn't lose 11 in a row with one of those being to DePaul and 2 to Georgetown.

Washington, UCLA, Nebraska, Marquette, Syracuse, Miss State, LSU, Penn State, Oregon, Oklahoma State, Texas, Boise State are all teams on the wrong side of the bubble that clearly have better resumes than us even if we pick up 2 more wins.

Maryland, Boston College, Georgia, Notre Dame, San Diego State and maybe even Western Kentucky would be about on par with us probably among a couple others.

Boston College has a 98 RPI and a 71 SOS
San Diego St. has a 100 RPI and a 123 SOS
Oklahoma St. has a 96 RPI and a 61 SOS
LSU has a 91 RPI and a 50 SOS

We have an 83 RPI and 9 SOS.

You are out of your mind if you think we aren't CLEARLY ahead of those teams.

You keep bringing up RPI and SOS like they are the holy grail. They aren't. In fact, those factors are deemphasized in favor of their new quadrant wins criteria. We have 2 quadrant 1 wins and 1 quadrant 2 win, so only 3 wins combined in quadrants 1 and 2. That's pretty weak and not clearly ahead of anybody.

Boston College has 2 Q1 wins and 2 Q2 wins
Oklahoma St has 3 Q1 wins and 2 Q2 wins
LSU has SIX Q1 wins and 1 Q2 win

So yeah, if anybody is clearly ahead, it's those teams over us.

You talk about the new system about evaluating teams as if the quadrant and the quadrant wins alone are the determining factor.  I don’t think you can make that assumption rationally at this point before seeing what the Committee does.

If quadrant wins are the most important factor do you have LSU making the dance? 6 quadrant one wins....

You talk about the new system about evaluating teams as if the quadrant and the quadrant wins alone are the determining factor.  I don’t think you can make that assumption rationally at this point before seeing what the Committee does.

If quadrant wins are the most important factor do you have LSU making the dance? 6 quadrant one wins....

I don't think they are the only factor but they are the most important factor. The committee said so themselves and it was clear that was their top factor when they released their top 16 teams a few weeks ago and still had Oklahoma as a 4 seed. Of course other things are in play, though.

No I don't think LSU will make the dance despite their handful of Q1 wins because the teams they'd have to get the nod over for the NCAA tournament have about the same amount of good wins as them or just 1 or 2 less with far fewer losses.

All that said, this is mostly moot now as predicted.

This convo is probably pointless because Providence will beat us by 20 if Ponds isn't playing.

How about a little kudos for the effort without  their best player and acknowledging that what you said was insanely incorrect

Quote from: Marillac on March 03, 2018, 01:00:23 AM

This convo is probably pointless because Providence will beat us by 20 if Ponds isn't playing.

How about a little kudos for the effort without  their best player and acknowledging that what you said was insanely incorrect

The fact that we are in 9th place and 4-14 doesn’t register with people. THIS HAS NOT BEEN A GOOD SEASON! Neither were the last 2.

Quote from: pmg911 on March 05, 2018, 06:56:33 AM

Quote from: Marillac on March 03, 2018, 01:00:23 AM

This convo is probably pointless because Providence will beat us by 20 if Ponds isn't playing.

How about a little kudos for the effort without  their best player and acknowledging that what you said was insanely incorrect

The fact that we are in 9th place and 4-14 doesn’t register with people. THIS HAS NOT BEEN A GOOD SEASON! Neither were the last 2.

Moral victories go a long way for some around here. Tough mindset to change.

Quote from: pmg911 on March 05, 2018, 06:56:33 AM

Quote from: Marillac on March 03, 2018, 01:00:23 AM

This convo is probably pointless because Providence will beat us by 20 if Ponds isn't playing.

How about a little kudos for the effort without  their best player and acknowledging that what you said was insanely incorrect

The fact that we are in 9th place and 4-14 doesn’t register with people. THIS HAS NOT BEEN A GOOD SEASON! Neither were the last 2.

Your outrage is misplaced.  Everyone agrees that this season was not good despite the improved win total.  It can still be a long term success if the program builds on it, which is why the silver linings are being highlighted.  The Lovett situation was ridiculous, and I think many of us are trying to assess our W-L record through that lens.

Quote from: TONYD3 on March 05, 2018, 08:11:50 AM

Quote from: pmg911 on March 05, 2018, 06:56:33 AM

Quote from: Marillac on March 03, 2018, 01:00:23 AM

This convo is probably pointless because Providence will beat us by 20 if Ponds isn't playing.

How about a little kudos for the effort without  their best player and acknowledging that what you said was insanely incorrect

The fact that we are in 9th place and 4-14 doesn’t register with people. THIS HAS NOT BEEN A GOOD SEASON! Neither were the last 2.

Your outrage is misplaced.  Everyone agrees that this season was not good despite the improved win total.  It can still be a long term success if the program builds on it, which is why the silver linings are being highlighted.  The Lovett situation was ridiculous, and I think many of us are trying to assess our W-L record through that lens.

The program can build on Ponds and Simon. The staff has done a horrible job of building the program. All but two top recruits have either left or never arrived. Each and every example is 100% their fault. Had it been the exception and not the rule, the case could be made that it's not their fault, but it's their way.

Quote from: Gray Chudney on March 05, 2018, 09:10:03 AM

Quote from: TONYD3 on March 05, 2018, 08:11:50 AM

Quote from: pmg911 on March 05, 2018, 06:56:33 AM

Quote from: Marillac on March 03, 2018, 01:00:23 AM

This convo is probably pointless because Providence will beat us by 20 if Ponds isn't playing.

How about a little kudos for the effort without  their best player and acknowledging that what you said was insanely incorrect

The fact that we are in 9th place and 4-14 doesn’t register with people. THIS HAS NOT BEEN A GOOD SEASON! Neither were the last 2.

Your outrage is misplaced.  Everyone agrees that this season was not good despite the improved win total.  It can still be a long term success if the program builds on it, which is why the silver linings are being highlighted.  The Lovett situation was ridiculous, and I think many of us are trying to assess our W-L record through that lens.

The program can build on Ponds and Simon. That really seems like it.

Clark?  Defense? 

Provided Ponds returns we'll have a respectable foundation heading into next year when real expectations to make the tournament begin.

Quote from: Poison on March 05, 2018, 09:13:32 AM

Quote from: Gray Chudney on March 05, 2018, 09:10:03 AM

Quote from: TONYD3 on March 05, 2018, 08:11:50 AM

Quote from: pmg911 on March 05, 2018, 06:56:33 AM

Quote from: Marillac on March 03, 2018, 01:00:23 AM

This convo is probably pointless because Providence will beat us by 20 if Ponds isn't playing.

How about a little kudos for the effort without  their best player and acknowledging that what you said was insanely incorrect

The fact that we are in 9th place and 4-14 doesn’t register with people. THIS HAS NOT BEEN A GOOD SEASON! Neither were the last 2.

Your outrage is misplaced.  Everyone agrees that this season was not good despite the improved win total.  It can still be a long term success if the program builds on it, which is why the silver linings are being highlighted.  The Lovett situation was ridiculous, and I think many of us are trying to assess our W-L record through that lens.

The program can build on Ponds and Simon. That really seems like it.

Clark?  Defense? 

Provided Ponds returns we'll have a respectable foundation heading into next year when real expectations to make the tournament begin.

Clark is one of the worst defenders I've seen in a St.John's uniform. Ponds returning is no gimme. If he could tear up Duke and Nova, he could go to an NBA draft camp and tear it up. Really, why should he return to play for this staff? What have they proved other than that they can't field a team when there are no hurdles to doing so. They don't deserve a player like Ponds. The reason they only won 4 games because of the staff. It's 100% on their incompetence and laziness.

I'm content to fire each and every staff member after Georgetown beats us for the 3rd time. Get a staff in here that understands how hard you have to work to succeed in the BE.

Quote from: TONYD3 on March 05, 2018, 08:11:50 AM

Quote from: pmg911 on March 05, 2018, 06:56:33 AM

Quote from: Marillac on March 03, 2018, 01:00:23 AM

This convo is probably pointless because Providence will beat us by 20 if Ponds isn't playing.

How about a little kudos for the effort without  their best player and acknowledging that what you said was insanely incorrect

The fact that we are in 9th place and 4-14 doesn’t register with people. THIS HAS NOT BEEN A GOOD SEASON! Neither were the last 2.

Your outrage is misplaced.  Everyone agrees that this season was not good despite the improved win total.  It can still be a long term success if the program builds on it, which is why the silver linings are being highlighted.  The Lovett situation was ridiculous, and I think many of us are trying to assess our W-L record through that lens.

My outrage is not misplaced. Chris Mullin is currently 3 games under Norm Roberts record after 3 seasons. Is that sample size not big enough?

Quote from: Gray Chudney on March 05, 2018, 09:10:03 AM

Quote from: TONYD3 on March 05, 2018, 08:11:50 AM

Quote from: pmg911 on March 05, 2018, 06:56:33 AM

Quote from: Marillac on March 03, 2018, 01:00:23 AM

This convo is probably pointless because Providence will beat us by 20 if Ponds isn't playing.

How about a little kudos for the effort without  their best player and acknowledging that what you said was insanely incorrect

The fact that we are in 9th place and 4-14 doesn’t register with people. THIS HAS NOT BEEN A GOOD SEASON! Neither were the last 2.

Your outrage is misplaced.  Everyone agrees that this season was not good despite the improved win total.  It can still be a long term success if the program builds on it, which is why the silver linings are being highlighted.  The Lovett situation was ridiculous, and I think many of us are trying to assess our W-L record through that lens.

My outrage is not misplaced. Chris Mullin is currently 3 games under Norm Roberts record after 3 seasons. Is that sample size not big enough?

Nobody is arguing that the results are disappointing.

Three years is not enough time to measure the success of a complete rebuild. I suggest posting these repetitive comments in a thread dedicated to Mullins job status to make the rest of the board readable.

  The Lovett situation was ridiculous, and I think many of us are trying to assess our W-L record through that lens.

AMEN - Lovett quit on the team. He refused to try and play after he recover from his injury because he worried about his future.

St. John's was a bubble team if he played the entire season and definitely NIT bound if he came back from his knee injury. Losing kids to injury is part of the game but losing kids because they are quitters can't be laid in the lap of the coach.

Quote from: Gray Chudney on March 05, 2018, 09:10:03 AM

  The Lovett situation was ridiculous, and I think many of us are trying to assess our W-L record through that lens.

AMEN - Lovett quit on the team. He refused to try and play after he recover from his injury because he worried about his future.

St. John's was a bubble team if he played the entire season and definitely NIT bound if he came back from his knee injury. Losing kids to injury is part of the game but losing kids because they are quitters can't be laid in the lap of the coach.

+1000

Quote from: Gray Chudney on March 05, 2018, 09:10:03 AM

  The Lovett situation was ridiculous, and I think many of us are trying to assess our W-L record through that lens.

AMEN - Lovett quit on the team. He refused to try and play after he recover from his injury because he worried about his future.

St. John's was a bubble team if he played the entire season and definitely NIT bound if he came back from his knee injury. Losing kids to injury is part of the game but losing kids because they are quitters can't be laid in the lap of the coach.

Ive argued on redmen.com we need to get high caliber players. But Lovett was recruited year 1, when the cupboard was bare.Had to take some risks then. The biggest problem is if you add the loss of Lovett to the defections we are razor thin. What we really have to cut down is the defections. Overall we have a nice group of kids. But the Yakwe situation baffles me. I cant understand how he could get zero burn lately. Trimble refusing to enter the game is also a redflag.

Plenty of excuses being made. Williams, Ellison, Lovett, and now yakwe. Does that happen to ed Cooley? How many guys left creighton last year? Who is leaving this year? Not to mention Wilson and brooks.

Trimble refusing to enter the game is also a redflag.

Did I miss something lately..? He refused to enter a game..?

Plenty of excuses being made. Williams, Ellison, Lovett, and now yakwe. Does that happen to ed Cooley? How many guys left creighton last year? Who is leaving this year? Not to mention Wilson and brooks.

Team continues to play hard for Mullin despite their record and lack of depth. That says something.