Owens Leaving

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #140 on: March 17, 2018, 12:14:18 AM »
Mullin has put 0 kids in the pros. 

You mean the NBA obviously. Because Missini and the German are being paid to play basketball. Ponds will play professional basketball. So will Simon. So will Clarke. According to Owens father, so will Owens. Expecting him to have stocked the NBA with professional players after three years is silly. Ed Cooley has put four players in the NBA after eight years and one of those he inherited. Kevin Willard has one and that guy he paid for. Greg McDermott has one, his kid. 

Yes, I mean the NBA, because guys playing in the pros in Italy and Germany, no one gives a Sh*t about.  Those other coaches you speak of, 2 have a Big East Championship,  2 had players  drafted in the lottery and all 3 have kids in the pros.  When you stack up those guys to Mullin, they are running circles around him.  So yeah, when I say Mullin has 0 pros and can't coach, kids and parents see it, which is why he can't land big time recruits in year 4.

Marillac

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #141 on: March 17, 2018, 12:33:23 AM »
Mullin has put 0 kids in the pros. 

You mean the NBA obviously. Because Missini and the German are being paid to play basketball. Ponds will play professional basketball. So will Simon. So will Clarke. According to Owens father, so will Owens. Expecting him to have stocked the NBA with professional players after three years is silly. Ed Cooley has put four players in the NBA after eight years and one of those he inherited. Kevin Willard has one and that guy he paid for. Greg McDermott has one, his kid. 

Yes, I mean the NBA, because guys playing in the pros in Italy and Germany, no one gives a Sh*t about.  Those other coaches you speak of, 2 have a Big East Championship,  2 had players  drafted in the lottery and all 3 have kids in the pros.  When you stack up those guys to Mullin, they are running circles around him.  So yeah, when I say Mullin has 0 pros and can't coach, kids and parents see it, which is why he can't land big time recruits in year 4.

He's been coaching for three seasons. This can't be a serious complaint.🙄

Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #142 on: March 17, 2018, 01:19:09 AM »
The problem isn't too many transfers the problem is the talent level is not where it needs to be or where we thought it would be 3 years ago when this coach was hired.

And that has been my mantra for awhile now, for all the talk about having a full roster of his players next year I am less worried about that then having big time players who can make a difference.  The quantity thing is overrated, I want quality.

The  recruiting by this staff has been a MAJOR disappointment 3 years in.  SJU is not getting the type of kids we thought they would land after all the optimism of his hire.  This needs to be emphasized because it is a big reason why they were hired to begin with.

I asked this question a few months ago, if I gave you a list of 2016, 2017, 2018 top area kids, everyone from Rawle Alkins to Mustapha Heron to Nick Richards to Naz Reid to Moses Brown to Quinerly to Muhammad etc, and told you a few weeks after Mullin/Matt/Slice were hired that despite all the optimism 3 years later SJU would whiff on essentially all those recruits (save Ponds) and have completed their 3rd straight losing season in both the League and overall and Slice would be gone in a messy divorce, you would have laughed me off the board.

Except it is all true.



Mullin has put 0 kids in the pros. gone by,  top kids, coaches, parents are seeing right through the crap which is why SJU is only landing lesser talent
plenty of fair criticism on our whole staff but this cant be one of them

Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #143 on: March 17, 2018, 01:33:55 AM »
This has been ongoing all season. Said it a while back on Brooks thread.

http://johnnyjungle.com/forum/index.php?topic=10589.msg289622#msg289622
Follow Johnny Jungle on Twitter at @Johnny_Jungle

Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #144 on: March 17, 2018, 09:04:29 AM »
Mullin has put 0 kids in the pros. 

You mean the NBA obviously. Because Missini and the German are being paid to play basketball. Ponds will play professional basketball. So will Simon. So will Clarke. According to Owens father, so will Owens. Expecting him to have stocked the NBA with professional players after three years is silly. Ed Cooley has put four players in the NBA after eight years and one of those he inherited. Kevin Willard has one and that guy he paid for. Greg McDermott has one, his kid. 

Yes, I mean the NBA, because guys playing in the pros in Italy and Germany, no one gives a Sh*t about.  Those other coaches you speak of, 2 have a Big East Championship,  2 had players  drafted in the lottery and all 3 have kids in the pros.  When you stack up those guys to Mullin, they are running circles around him.  So yeah, when I say Mullin has 0 pros and can't coach, kids and parents see it, which is why he can't land big time recruits in year 4.

He's been coaching for three seasons. This can't be a serious complaint.🙄

My complaint is, he has not recruited well because he can’t develop talent and has not won. On top of that Mullin has had  7 players leave his program who would rather go help another program or quit.

I’m pointing out that any poster who thought this guy was going to bring in top talent right away was dreaming.  Show you can develop players and win with them and talent will come.  Not happening here.

TONYD3

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #145 on: March 17, 2018, 09:07:24 AM »
Norm Roberts is in Wichita you think Chris has his number??? :)

I would love Norm here as an assistant and a recruiter.  Norm was. Great guy and could get out and recruit well.  He wasn’t a great head coach, but as an assistant would be fantastic.  I know it would never happen, but it’s not outlandish.
Mullin will have to win 8 big east games just to tie norm after 4 years. That is how bad Mullin is.

Norm inherited three former top 100 recruits and two of them -- Showtime and Lamont Hamilton -- were only sophomores that were all conference. He also inherited Epperson and Ryan
Williams as prior aigneees (although Epperson didn't last long), Phil Missere, and several experienced walkons.

Mullin inherited Alibegovic and Christian Jones with no walkons.

If you don't think Mullin's career record and trajectory don't look very different if he started off with Showtime and Hamilton averaging 35 ppg as sophs, you are being dishonest.
You are really making an argument that Norm Roberts had a better opportunity then Chris Mullin? Wow! Year 4 of complete rebuild will end the same as 1-3.

Norm didn't have a "complete rebuild" idiot. Complete rebuilds don't start with a top 30 PG that scores 20 ppg out of the gate, a top 75 big man that makes all league, a top 100 senior big man, a solid JUCO reserve, Phil Missere, and experienced walkons.

Add Lamont Hamilton and Showtime to Ponds, Simon, and Clark and tell me that team doesn't win tournament games.
Phil missere and experienced walkons. You convinced me. Mr. Showtime wasn’t so great when he played on one knee.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 09:15:31 AM by TONYD3 »

Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #146 on: March 17, 2018, 09:51:17 AM »
Mullin has put 0 kids in the pros. 

You mean the NBA obviously. Because Missini and the German are being paid to play basketball. Ponds will play professional basketball. So will Simon. So will Clarke. According to Owens father, so will Owens. Expecting him to have stocked the NBA with professional players after three years is silly. Ed Cooley has put four players in the NBA after eight years and one of those he inherited. Kevin Willard has one and that guy he paid for. Greg McDermott has one, his kid. 

Yes, I mean the NBA, because guys playing in the pros in Italy and Germany, no one gives a Sh*t about.  Those other coaches you speak of, 2 have a Big East Championship,  2 had players  drafted in the lottery and all 3 have kids in the pros.  When you stack up those guys to Mullin, they are running circles around him.  So yeah, when I say Mullin has 0 pros and can't coach, kids and parents see it, which is why he can't land big time recruits in year 4.
How is he supposed to put people in the pros? He hasn't even been 4 years and our best recruit is Ponds who will go but is choosing to come back. That's an awful take.

Poison

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #147 on: March 17, 2018, 10:28:12 AM »
Mullin has put 0 kids in the pros. 

You mean the NBA obviously. Because Missini and the German are being paid to play basketball. Ponds will play professional basketball. So will Simon. So will Clarke. According to Owens father, so will Owens. Expecting him to have stocked the NBA with professional players after three years is silly. Ed Cooley has put four players in the NBA after eight years and one of those he inherited. Kevin Willard has one and that guy he paid for. Greg McDermott has one, his kid. 

Yes, I mean the NBA, because guys playing in the pros in Italy and Germany, no one gives a Sh*t about.  Those other coaches you speak of, 2 have a Big East Championship,  2 had players  drafted in the lottery and all 3 have kids in the pros.  When you stack up those guys to Mullin, they are running circles around him.  So yeah, when I say Mullin has 0 pros and can't coach, kids and parents see it, which is why he can't land big time recruits in year 4.

I don’t think it’s an issue that Mullin hasn’t helped players get to the league. He hasn’t helped them improve. There’s no St.John’s fan that knows what he’s good at in regards to coaching. Norm was nice. Lavin was a communicator. All we see, and all prospects and their families see is Mullin sitting on the scoring table complaining.

This staff’s judgment is awful. It’s one thing to blame them for losing Sima, Ellison and for turning Kassoum Yakwe into dead weight on the bench. The staff deserves 100% of that criticism. In addition to that, going after Brown and Wilson really showed how bad their judgement is. They operate like rookies. Not just Mullin.

The season is over. If they were going to replace one person or several staff members it makes sense that they would have by now.

A lot rests on next season. Maybe some of you feel they deserve a 4th year. I cannot understand why any of them deserved 1. Either way, our suffering can turn into hope by this time next season. Either Mullin gets it together, or he leaves.

Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #148 on: March 17, 2018, 11:19:01 AM »
Mullin has put 0 kids in the pros. 

You mean the NBA obviously. Because Missini and the German are being paid to play basketball. Ponds will play professional basketball. So will Simon. So will Clarke. According to Owens father, so will Owens. Expecting him to have stocked the NBA with professional players after three years is silly. Ed Cooley has put four players in the NBA after eight years and one of those he inherited. Kevin Willard has one and that guy he paid for. Greg McDermott has one, his kid. 

Yes, I mean the NBA, because guys playing in the pros in Italy and Germany, no one gives a Sh*t about.  Those other coaches you speak of, 2 have a Big East Championship,  2 had players  drafted in the lottery and all 3 have kids in the pros.  When you stack up those guys to Mullin, they are running circles around him.  So yeah, when I say Mullin has 0 pros and can't coach, kids and parents see it, which is why he can't land big time recruits in year 4.
How is he supposed to put people in the pros? He hasn't even been 4 years and our best recruit is Ponds who will go but is choosing to come back. That's an awful take.


My argument was not to fault Mullin for putting 0 guys in pros. Someone mentioned fans thought Mullin was going to bring in top talent right away. I was just simply stating that he needs to put guys at next level before he brings in top talent.

Poison

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #149 on: March 17, 2018, 01:57:52 PM »
Mullin has put 0 kids in the pros. 

You mean the NBA obviously. Because Missini and the German are being paid to play basketball. Ponds will play professional basketball. So will Simon. So will Clarke. According to Owens father, so will Owens. Expecting him to have stocked the NBA with professional players after three years is silly. Ed Cooley has put four players in the NBA after eight years and one of those he inherited. Kevin Willard has one and that guy he paid for. Greg McDermott has one, his kid. 

Yes, I mean the NBA, because guys playing in the pros in Italy and Germany, no one gives a Sh*t about.  Those other coaches you speak of, 2 have a Big East Championship,  2 had players  drafted in the lottery and all 3 have kids in the pros.  When you stack up those guys to Mullin, they are running circles around him.  So yeah, when I say Mullin has 0 pros and can't coach, kids and parents see it, which is why he can't land big time recruits in year 4.
How is he supposed to put people in the pros? He hasn't even been 4 years and our best recruit is Ponds who will go but is choosing to come back. That's an awful take.


My argument was not to fault Mullin for putting 0 guys in pros. Someone mentioned fans thought Mullin was going to bring in top talent right away. I was just simply stating that he needs to put guys at next level before he brings in top talent.

If you look around our conference there are very few NBA players, and that number is likely to continue to go down without Syracuse, Uconn and Louisville. But what programs like Creighton, Butler and Nova do is recruit players for a system. And it’s a system that they can see.

That’s what we could offer recruits much more so than an NBA dream. No coach can really offer that. A player can consistently get better for 4 years, carry his program to a final four and never get a sniff from the league. That’s not on the coach.

Because of careless recruiting, or if you’re a homer (and it seems you’re not) really really really bad luck, St.John’s had a short roster + they had just about every player playing out of position. That has to be a big part of why Owens wants to leave. We can see this. His father can see this.
Why are people blaming the kid when he’s on pace to graduate and would be leaving after finishing an undergrad obligation to the school? He didn’t drag their name through the mud, or cause any problems while he was here. He wasn’t Walter Berry, but he wasn’t Dele Coker either.

Foad

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #150 on: March 17, 2018, 05:28:16 PM »
Yeah, the first source I go to when I think about college basketball is an opinion piece by a dude at Forbes.

Yeah, and the first source I go to when I think about college basketball isn't you. As usual, YMMV.

<hose>

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I didn't call the guy you were responding to a liar or an idiot because you did a pretty good job of doing that yourself.

Yeah, no I didn't. I was having a pleasant and respectful conversation with a poster with whom I disagreed, which conversation you interrupted to call me a liar.

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If you wan't to not count Jones because he was a Lavin guy that's one thing, but Williams was a Mullin guy and transferred away when all indications were the staff wanted him to stay. If that wasn't the case and the staff pushed him out then I apologize but Williams was a Mullin guy that transferred.

Or he graduated, as did Jones, depending on your perspective, Which difference you in the next sentence you wrote describe as semantics.

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Anyway, that's all semantics.

Huh. So it's all semantics. Which makes me less a liar than someone interested in semantics.

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The hard anti-Mullin people are exaggerating one way and the pro-Mullin guys are doing the opposite. The point is the players leaving this program has been very concerning. You say it's not a big deal

No. I never said it's not a big deal. I said the opposite: "I didn't say the roster churn was good. It's bad. Lack of continuity is bad. Not having enough bodies is bad. It's all very bad."

See? It's all very bad.

Lack of continuity in college basketball rosters is the absolutely worst thing that can happen unless you're Kentucky or dook. Because regular programs cannot hope to compete with elite programs that have access to elite recruits without it.

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because it's only 2 transfers and Mullin can't be blamed for the guys that "went pro". Well the fact is that once Yakwe leaves Mullin's entire 6 man initial recruiting class left before their eligibility expired. So instead of me calling you a cunt


As opposed to just a liar, thanks.

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I'll try to have an actual discussion. Please tell me if you disagree with my assessment of how much each player can be counted against the staff, relatively speaking.

Lovett - He wasn't supposed to be here long originally and his true colors showed this year. This one is not on Mullin at all.
Sima - Was supposed to be one of the building blocks. Got plenty of PT in his first year and a half and wasn't recruited over. This one definitely counts against the staff.
Yakwe - Showed promise in his Freshman season but then regressed drastically the rest of his time here. Him moving on is the obvious decision for both sides. Won't totally count this one against the staff but his regression was concerning.
Williams - A guy that would have had a role on this team this year that chose to leave. Was brought in by this staff. I count this one against the staff.
Ellison - Probably would have had a role this year but felt he got recruited over. Instead chose to go and sit out a year at one of the few power conference programs that's more of a dumpster fire than this one. This is a half count against the staff to me.
Mussini - Definitely got his fair share of minutes his first couple of years here and that would have continued into this year. I don't think the staff only wanted him for 2 years here just to see him leave when he finally had players around him capable of getting him open shots. His two years here didn't really improve his pro stock in Italy so I count this one against the staff.
Freudenberg - Left after one year of not playing much. Everybody knew he would be a project and wasn't going to play much in year 1 anyway. Staff wouldn't have spent time and resources recruiting him from Germany and brought him here if the plan was for him to play minimal minutes and then leave after one year. Another guy who left despite his stock not yet improving. This one is definitely on the staff.

I have no idea how much anything can be counted against the staff nor do I care. What can be counted against the staff is the roster churn. Roster churn is bad and they need to find a way to stabilize things because a second rate program like SJU will never be successful without it. Some of the blame for that is mitigated because of where they started. Some of the blame for that is their own fault. Not being the Christ I don't have to weigh their sins.

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So yes, the guys that count Rysheed and Obekpa in that are definitely either exaggerating, misrepresenting, idiots or all 3. But to me, to say this hasn't been a problem because the guys that graduated or went pro don't count against the staff is almost equally stupid.

Okay, you find me stupid. Which is fine, because I think you're stupid too. Because evidently you can't read. Because I never said it's not a problem and I never said that players leaving had nothing to do with the staff. What I said was - and all I said was - that of the 11 players who left - and it's actually 12, as some helpful poster PM'ed me that I forgot to count Wilson - is that those players were not all transfers and calling them transfers falsifies the record. Which is all said, because as I also said, things are bad enough without mischaracterizing things to make them worse.

Marillac

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #151 on: March 17, 2018, 06:09:03 PM »
Mullin has put 0 kids in the pros. 

You mean the NBA obviously. Because Missini and the German are being paid to play basketball. Ponds will play professional basketball. So will Simon. So will Clarke. According to Owens father, so will Owens. Expecting him to have stocked the NBA with professional players after three years is silly. Ed Cooley has put four players in the NBA after eight years and one of those he inherited. Kevin Willard has one and that guy he paid for. Greg McDermott has one, his kid. 

Yes, I mean the NBA, because guys playing in the pros in Italy and Germany, no one gives a Sh*t about.  Those other coaches you speak of, 2 have a Big East Championship,  2 had players  drafted in the lottery and all 3 have kids in the pros.  When you stack up those guys to Mullin, they are running circles around him.  So yeah, when I say Mullin has 0 pros and can't coach, kids and parents see it, which is why he can't land big time recruits in year 4.
How is he supposed to put people in the pros? He hasn't even been 4 years and our best recruit is Ponds who will go but is choosing to come back. That's an awful take.


My argument was not to fault Mullin for putting 0 guys in pros. Someone mentioned fans thought Mullin was going to bring in top talent right away. I was just simply stating that he needs to put guys at next level before he brings in top talent.

If you look around our conference there are very few NBA players, and that number is likely to continue to go down without Syracuse, Uconn and Louisville. But what programs like Creighton, Butler and Nova do is recruit players for a system. And it’s a system that they can see.

That’s what we could offer recruits much more so than an NBA dream. No coach can really offer that. A player can consistently get better for 4 years, carry his program to a final four and never get a sniff from the league. That’s not on the coach.

Because of careless recruiting, or if you’re a homer (and it seems you’re not) really really really bad luck, St.John’s had a short roster + they had just about every player playing out of position. That has to be a big part of why Owens wants to leave. We can see this. His father can see this.
Why are people blaming the kid when he’s on pace to graduate and would be leaving after finishing an undergrad obligation to the school? He didn’t drag their name through the mud, or cause any problems while he was here. He wasn’t Walter Berry, but he wasn’t Dele Coker either.

The Big East has more junior and senior NBA prospects than anyone. Mikal Bridges and Khyri Thomas are projected lottery picks this year. Brunson will be a late first rounder too. Bluiett, Martin, Macura, Spellman, and Ponds have also made mock drafts this year. There are like four programs that collect one-and-domes that routinely get drafted that skew the picks.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 06:10:36 PM by Marillac »

desco80

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #152 on: March 17, 2018, 07:16:51 PM »
Maybe I'm naive but I think there are decent odds that Owens returns.   If you're giving me SJU or the field... I'll take st johns.  Because the minutes here are guranteed, and thats the most essential ingredient for his fathers plan for him to be a pro.   What high major can offer Owens 30 mpg?   None worth transferring to.   

Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #153 on: March 17, 2018, 07:28:07 PM »
Seems less about mpg, and more about not being an afterthought in the offensive scheme and playing position where he can showcase his shot.

He got 30 mpg, this year and dad didn't seem happy with Tariq getting plays made for him


Marillac

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #154 on: March 17, 2018, 07:30:30 PM »
Seems less about mpg, and more about not being an afterthought in the offensive scheme and playing position where he can showcase his shot.

He got 30 mpg, this year and dad didn't seem happy with Tariq getting plays made for him



I don't want him back if he's showcasing SF skills. I'll take the kid that hustles and wants to play big. He's not good enough to cater to.

paultzman

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #155 on: March 17, 2018, 07:37:18 PM »
Maybe I'm naive but I think there are decent odds that Owens returns.   If you're giving me SJU or the field... I'll take st johns.  Because the minutes here are guranteed, and thats the most essential ingredient for his fathers plan for him to be a pro.   What high major can offer Owens 30 mpg?   None worth transferring to.   

I believe the way the family decided to announce his desire for a release, via Evan Daniels through his  AAU coach apparently, may have left a bad taste on SJU side. We’ll see, but I think the ship has sailed. Hope not though.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 07:38:01 PM by paultzman »

Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #156 on: March 17, 2018, 07:43:14 PM »
Seems like an absence of trust if they went to media before talking w/ Mullin

MCNPA

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #157 on: March 17, 2018, 08:08:31 PM »
The fact that we even have this thread is a testament to how much this kid improved under this staff.  This kid improved leaps and bounds and had all the playing time he could ever want.  Everybody thinks the grass is greener, but he improved and worked his way up to a pretty skilled starter getting tons of minutes.  I’m doubtful he will get more somewhere else.  This staff has done about as much as they can to improve this kid and it certainly shows.

TONYD3

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #158 on: March 17, 2018, 08:12:22 PM »
The fact that we even have this thread is a testament to how much this kid improved under this staff.  This kid improved leaps and bounds and had all the playing time he could ever want.  Everybody thinks the grass is greener, but he improved and worked his way up to a pretty skilled starter getting tons of minutes.  I’m doubtful he will get more somewhere else.  This staff has done about as much as they can to improve this kid and it certainly shows.
No!! He isn’t that good. The problem is we have no one else. Currently we have 3 big east players. I am sure they could win hoop it up. Another 9th place season is coming.

Marillac

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #159 on: March 17, 2018, 08:22:52 PM »
The fact that we even have this thread is a testament to how much this kid improved under this staff.  This kid improved leaps and bounds and had all the playing time he could ever want.  Everybody thinks the grass is greener, but he improved and worked his way up to a pretty skilled starter getting tons of minutes.  I’m doubtful he will get more somewhere else.  This staff has done about as much as they can to improve this kid and it certainly shows.

How did he improve? He has no paint moves. He's the same scrawny size. He hustles...that's it. I love kids that hustle, don't get me wrong, but he hasn't improved at all.