Owens Leaving

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Johnny23

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #120 on: March 16, 2018, 05:04:26 PM »
So poor coaching, lack of player development, lack of quality recruiting, and lack of continuity? Besides Ponds and wins over Duke and Nova, what are the positives this regime has produced?

wpc77

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #121 on: March 16, 2018, 05:07:14 PM »
So poor coaching, lack of player development, lack of quality recruiting, and lack of continuity? Besides Ponds and wins over Duke and Nova, what are the positives this regime has produced?

Nostalgia.

Marillac

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #122 on: March 16, 2018, 05:42:53 PM »
Norm Roberts is in Wichita you think Chris has his number??? :)

I would love Norm here as an assistant and a recruiter.  Norm was. Great guy and could get out and recruit well.  He wasn’t a great head coach, but as an assistant would be fantastic.  I know it would never happen, but it’s not outlandish.
Mullin will have to win 8 big east games just to tie norm after 4 years. That is how bad Mullin is.

Norm inherited three former top 100 recruits and two of them -- Showtime and Lamont Hamilton -- were only sophomores that were all conference. He also inherited Epperson and Ryan
Williams as prior aigneees (although Epperson didn't last long), Phil Missere, and several experienced walkons.

Mullin inherited Alibegovic and Christian Jones with no walkons.

If you don't think Mullin's career record and trajectory don't look very different if he started off with Showtime and Hamilton averaging 35 ppg as sophs, you are being dishonest.

Foad

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #123 on: March 16, 2018, 05:44:07 PM »
Its not about what these guys have done at other schools.  Its the fact that Mullin has had a revolving door at SJU.  Every "Big" that mullin has brought in- Gone, except Yakwe who might as well be gone, because he has gotten worse under this staff.  I didn't even count Obepka or Jordan, because kids leaving with a new coach happens alot.  I only mentioned Mullin's kids.   The fact that most left for worse opportunities shows that whats going on under Mullin's is not good.   Each of these kids who left could of helped this program in some way, but instead our jack ass coach decided in year 3 would be a good year to only have 7 or 8 capable guys suit up.  Maybe if we recruited better in our own back yard, or even in the USA, we would not have to deal with kids leaving to go back to their native countries after a year or 2.

If you're only talking about Mullin's kids then two of them transferred, not nine: Ellison and Sima and I doubt our jackass coach encouraged those two to leave. Sima left mid season and Ellison was his buddy's kid who was scared he was being recruited over, which he was because he wasn't that good. Williams graduated and Yakwe is supposedly on track to graduate.

Anyway I didn't sat the roster churn was good. It's bad. Lack of continuity is bad. Not having enough bodies is bad. It's all very bad. That's pretty obvious. My point to the extent I had one beyond correcting the record is that none of the players who left fared well after doing so and many left what might have been fortunate circumstances for dire ones. Sima and or Williams would have played 30 plus minutes this year and been featured players in the offense, as opposed to being bums, which is what they are. Ellison would have logged major minutes in the BE as opposed to sitting on the bench watching Pitt do worse than St John's, which you wouldn't have thought possible, and now he's going to transfer again and what, sit out another year? I suspect (and being a cynic maybe hope) the same thing will happen to Owens. Because like many of the people who left before him he over estimates his abilities and his prospects, which are minimal.

If a kid played for Mullin or was recruited by Mullin and signed with Mullin, its Mullin's kids.  So yes, if you look at his roster from year 1 till now, he would have 9 kids leave under his watch.  I see what you are saying that these kids never did anything at their next stop, but that does not take a way from the fact that in 3 years, Mullin has not recruited over any of the bigs and yet they still left and are still leaving.

I'm not defending CM's record. But players leaving is not the same as players transferring. Eleven players have left. Two have transferred, as many as have gone pro. Several have quit. Several have graduated. Things are bad enough without exaggerating to make things look worse.

Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #124 on: March 16, 2018, 05:44:45 PM »
The problem isn't too many transfers the problem is the talent level is not where it needs to be or where we thought it would be 3 years ago when this coach was hired.

And that has been my mantra for awhile now, for all the talk about having a full roster of his players next year I am less worried about that then having big time players who can make a difference.  The quantity thing is overrated, I want quality.

The  recruiting by this staff has been a MAJOR disappointment 3 years in.  SJU is not getting the type of kids we thought they would land after all the optimism of his hire.  This needs to be emphasized because it is a big reason why they were hired to begin with.

I asked this question a few months ago, if I gave you a list of 2016, 2017, 2018 top area kids, everyone from Rawle Alkins to Mustapha Heron to Nick Richards to Naz Reid to Moses Brown to Quinerly to Muhammad etc, and told you a few weeks after Mullin/Matt/Slice were hired that despite all the optimism 3 years later SJU would whiff on essentially all those recruits (save Ponds) and have completed their 3rd straight losing season in both the League and overall and Slice would be gone in a messy divorce, you would have laughed me off the board.

Except it is all true.



Mullin has put 0 kids in the pros.  He has never coached before and his staff is below average with no experience.  I am not sure why anyone would think he was going to bring in top talent.  Yes, he had slice and Matty A, but those guys were selling an idea in year one, and guess what, we are in year 3 and now with no slice, they are still selling an idea.  With each year that has gone by,  top kids, coaches, parents are seeing right through the crap which is why SJU is only landing lesser talent

so you expected Mullin to have a kid in the NBA by year 3? you have to be kidding! people bitchin on this board need a reality check. When was the last time SJU was relevant? The last 20 years have been a culture of losing more than winning, that seems pretty obvious. Do you know how hard it is to recruit into that reputation? Have you ever run a basketball program, business or any entity that had to be turned around? it's f'n brutal, I've done it 3 times and coach businesses in these situations for the last 11 years. It take a ton of persistence getting the right people in place and recruiting the right people (players) and a ton of luck. it is such a fragile situation and you people act as though every coach we bring in here is a lazy nice person and should be bringing in top rated recruits asap.

Doesn't work that way, will take awhile to build a winning culture, 5 years min. Mullin, like Lavin had to take players at the start other programs wouldn't, to field a competitive team. Some will work out and others won't, at the beginning that is the way it works. Lovett stays we wouldn't be having this conversation, but he didn't. Losing staff during the first few years of a turnaround is typical and you deal with it, as painful as it is. You don't have a culture that people can count on yet or in this case seniors who are leaders. If the head coach does not have players who leaders, it makes it far more difficult to keep a team together.

I don't know if it will work out for Mullin, but listening to him talk and watching the team, I'm picking him versus most of the opinions on this board. I cannot emphasize how hard it is to turn around long term failing program/business.  blame the school for hiring a coach with little experience not Mullin, he's getting paid a nice buck, but he is not a miracle worker it will take time to where we were during Louie's days.

Of course we can end this experiment and start all over and you can start bitching anew on another no nothing, lazy coach.

Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #125 on: March 16, 2018, 05:44:54 PM »
Really don't understand this. We had a real shot at the Tournament if he stayed. Now I don't see it. Where is he going to go that could offer a better situation? Plus he's familiar with the school, coaches, teammates and is guaranteed 30+ minutes. A real headscratcher.

Agreed.  Don't get it.

it is pretty obvious that the family doesn't believe this program, coaches, and system can set him up for a pro-career in the NBA.  simple as that.

If the family believes he's an NBA player they're delusional.

Well than color his father delusional as he even feels his son doesn't necessarily need to put on weight as he compared him to the former Duke one and doner Ingram of the LA Lakers.

Are you serious?  He compared his son to Brandon Ingram?  If so, then it's straight-jacket time.
Yes serious. Surprised you didn't see it on twitter. Think main reason for transfer may be TO being sensitive to criticism about his weight and I'm only half joking.

I didn't see it.  Regardless, that's straight comical.  The only thing he has in common with Ingram is height and they're both black. 

The problem isn't too many transfers the problem is the talent level is not where it needs to be or where we thought it would be 3 years ago when this coach was hired.

And that has been my mantra for awhile now, for all the talk about having a full roster of his players next year I am less worried about that then having big time players who can make a difference.  The quantity thing is overrated, I want quality.

The  recruiting by this staff has been a MAJOR disappointment 3 years in.  SJU is not getting the type of kids we thought they would land after all the optimism of his hire.  This needs to be emphasized because it is a big reason why they were hired to begin with.

I asked this question a few months ago, if I gave you a list of 2016, 2017, 2018 top area kids, everyone from Rawle Alkins to Mustapha Heron to Nick Richards to Naz Reid to Moses Brown to Quinerly to Muhammad etc, and told you a few weeks after Mull in/Matt/Slice were hired that despite all the optimism 3 years later SJU would whiff on essentially all those recruits (save Ponds) and have completed their 3rd straight losing season in both the League and overall and Slice would be gone in a messy divorce, you would have laughed me off the board.

Except it is all true.


I just got an email from the BMW dealership. It was the owner. He said they needed to sell 42 cars to get some kind of bonus. I am not a salesman but i can sell BMW's if they were on sale. I probably could sell BMW's anyway because they are great cars.
That first season where everyone on these boards gave Mull in his first pass. Him not paying attention, not in control, rarely speaking to his team during games., was noticed. Clearly not to his fans, but it was noticed by everyone else. 

Slice great salesman. BMW would love him. He Was great at PITT and Kentucky. How did he do at Manhattan? How did he do at St. Johns? It didn't take me long (like 15 minutes) to know he wasn't a coach.

Richmond probably could have been a coach. Is he recruiting? Does anyone think he worked a minute today? You can find Louis Orr recruiting. You can also find Patrick Ewing Recruiting.  Where is Mull in?

Matt- How do you hire both Matt and slice? You pick one.  Did Mull in not know that neither of these guys actually coach basketball? Better yet you hire neither. You need coaches to coach as well. Maybe Matt could help a competent staff. With this group we are always down a coach during the game. And usually down a coach recruiting.

If you paid attention in the beginning it was obvious this experiment would not work.

3/4 of the staff doesn't recruit, so it promotes a lazy, recruiting strategy.  Hence, we're always vying for sit-out transfers.  I don't mind doing it from time to time, but to make it part of your recruiting strategy just seems lazy, IMO. 

We continue to strike out on our targets, too.  Camp Sunshine going on at Utopia.

Marillac

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #126 on: March 16, 2018, 05:52:34 PM »
I want to get to a point where we have continuity, but the reality is we are better off without him if he wants a Brandon Ingram role. Ingram is a legit skilled SF and Owens is an unskilled big man.

We need guys that will accept the PF and C roles. The NBA is always looking for guys that will rebound, defend, and so the dirty work.  Jared Dudley is a 6'6 225 PF/SF who has played a decade in the NBA because he accepts that role so many 6'8-6'11 guys don't want.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 05:53:19 PM by Marillac »

Foad

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #127 on: March 16, 2018, 05:55:00 PM »
Mullin has put 0 kids in the pros. 

You mean the NBA obviously. Because Missini and the German are being paid to play basketball. Ponds will play professional basketball. So will Simon. So will Clarke. According to Owens father, so will Owens. Expecting him to have stocked the NBA with professional players after three years is silly. Ed Cooley has put four players in the NBA after eight years and one of those he inherited. Kevin Willard has one and that guy he paid for. Greg McDermott has one, his kid. 

goredmen

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #128 on: March 16, 2018, 05:57:39 PM »
Its not about what these guys have done at other schools.  Its the fact that Mullin has had a revolving door at SJU.  Every "Big" that mullin has brought in- Gone, except Yakwe who might as well be gone, because he has gotten worse under this staff.  I didn't even count Obepka or Jordan, because kids leaving with a new coach happens alot.  I only mentioned Mullin's kids.   The fact that most left for worse opportunities shows that whats going on under Mullin's is not good.   Each of these kids who left could of helped this program in some way, but instead our jack ass coach decided in year 3 would be a good year to only have 7 or 8 capable guys suit up.  Maybe if we recruited better in our own back yard, or even in the USA, we would not have to deal with kids leaving to go back to their native countries after a year or 2.

If you're only talking about Mullin's kids then two of them transferred, not nine: Ellison and Sima and I doubt our jackass coach encouraged those two to leave. Sima left mid season and Ellison was his buddy's kid who was scared he was being recruited over, which he was because he wasn't that good. Williams graduated and Yakwe is supposedly on track to graduate.

Anyway I didn't sat the roster churn was good. It's bad. Lack of continuity is bad. Not having enough bodies is bad. It's all very bad. That's pretty obvious. My point to the extent I had one beyond correcting the record is that none of the players who left fared well after doing so and many left what might have been fortunate circumstances for dire ones. Sima and or Williams would have played 30 plus minutes this year and been featured players in the offense, as opposed to being bums, which is what they are. Ellison would have logged major minutes in the BE as opposed to sitting on the bench watching Pitt do worse than St John's, which you wouldn't have thought possible, and now he's going to transfer again and what, sit out another year? I suspect (and being a cynic maybe hope) the same thing will happen to Owens. Because like many of the people who left before him he over estimates his abilities and his prospects, which are minimal.

If a kid played for Mullin or was recruited by Mullin and signed with Mullin, its Mullin's kids.  So yes, if you look at his roster from year 1 till now, he would have 9 kids leave under his watch.  I see what you are saying that these kids never did anything at their next stop, but that does not take a way from the fact that in 3 years, Mullin has not recruited over any of the bigs and yet they still left and are still leaving.

I'm not defending CM's record. But players leaving is not the same as players transferring. Eleven players have left. Two have transferred, as many as have gone pro. Several have quit. Several have graduated. Things are bad enough without exaggerating to make things look worse.

I'm mostly in the middle of the whole Mullin thing but you are exaggerating things in the opposite direction or are purposely misrepresenting the situation but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Just because Christian Jones and Damien Williams graduated doesn't mean they didn't transfer. It is called grad transfer for a reason, because it's a transfer. They were here in school, still had eligibility remaining and went to another school to complete that eligibility. That's a transfer. I'm not saying they were good or bad but they transferred. That plus Ellison and Sima equals 4 transfers. That's still actually probably less than the D1 average but those guys are transfers. Those combined with the other guys leaving well before the staff had planned for them to leave is a very concerning trend


TONYD3

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #129 on: March 16, 2018, 06:30:02 PM »
Norm Roberts is in Wichita you think Chris has his number??? :)

I would love Norm here as an assistant and a recruiter.  Norm was. Great guy and could get out and recruit well.  He wasn’t a great head coach, but as an assistant would be fantastic.  I know it would never happen, but it’s not outlandish.
Mullin will have to win 8 big east games just to tie norm after 4 years. That is how bad Mullin is.

Norm inherited three former top 100 recruits and two of them -- Showtime and Lamont Hamilton -- were only sophomores that were all conference. He also inherited Epperson and Ryan
Williams as prior aigneees (although Epperson didn't last long), Phil Missere, and several experienced walkons.

Mullin inherited Alibegovic and Christian Jones with no walkons.

If you don't think Mullin's career record and trajectory don't look very different if he started off with Showtime and Hamilton averaging 35 ppg as sophs, you are being dishonest.
You are really making an argument that Norm Roberts had a better opportunity then Chris Mullin? Wow! Year 4 of complete rebuild will end the same as 1-3.

nudginator59

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #130 on: March 16, 2018, 07:16:48 PM »
Norm Roberts is in Wichita you think Chris has his number??? :)

I would love Norm here as an assistant and a recruiter.  Norm was. Great guy and could get out and recruit well.  He wasn’t a great head coach, but as an assistant would be fantastic.  I know it would never happen, but it’s not outlandish.
Mullin will have to win 8 big east games just to tie norm after 4 years. That is how bad Mullin is.

Norm inherited three former top 100 recruits and two of them -- Showtime and Lamont Hamilton -- were only sophomores that were all conference. He also inherited Epperson and Ryan
Williams as prior aigneees (although Epperson didn't last long), Phil Missere, and several experienced walkons.

Mullin inherited Alibegovic and Christian Jones with no walkons.

If you don't think Mullin's career record and trajectory don't look very different if he started off with Showtime and Hamilton averaging 35 ppg as sophs, you are being dishonest.
You are really making an argument that Norm Roberts had a better opportunity then Chris Mullin? Wow! Year 4 of complete rebuild will end the same as 1-3.

-Years 1-3 for Mullin the team has improved...Not as fast as everyone here would have liked.
People talk about his  BE record this year which wasn’t good, but what about his 11-2 OOC record, which is the best in a few decades to include a win over Duke.
-I hear Mullin’s 1st year doesn’t count on this board, it seems to count when people want to use it to show how many BE loses he has. Of you don’t like him it does count...

Year 3 was supposed to be an NIT year and they just missed it despite everything. The hemorrhaging of players is frustrating. This also goes to show why a basketball team shouldn’t graduate players as if they are a football team (lesson learned). The balancing act of this roster has been going on for over a damn decade.

There’s still time for player and personnel to be figured out. The venom on this board is unbelievable. 

Some of you just need to create another thread titled why I hate Coach Mullin use that as a carthasis for your frustration of this team.  It will be a no judgement thread, as long as you don’t threatened mayhem. This could be your Johnny Jungle dream journal thread...


Cougar O' Malley

TONYD3

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #131 on: March 16, 2018, 07:34:05 PM »
Peeing on yourself is an improvement from shitting on yourself. Doesn’t mean you should be proud that you peed on yourself.

Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #132 on: March 16, 2018, 07:39:39 PM »
Norm Roberts is in Wichita you think Chris has his number??? :)

I would love Norm here as an assistant and a recruiter.  Norm was. Great guy and could get out and recruit well.  He wasn’t a great head coach, but as an assistant would be fantastic.  I know it would never happen, but it’s not outlandish.
Mullin will have to win 8 big east games just to tie norm after 4 years. That is how bad Mullin is.

Norm inherited three former top 100 recruits and two of them -- Showtime and Lamont Hamilton -- were only sophomores that were all conference. He also inherited Epperson and Ryan
Williams as prior aigneees (although Epperson didn't last long), Phil Missere, and several experienced walkons.

Mullin inherited Alibegovic and Christian Jones with no walkons.

If you don't think Mullin's career record and trajectory don't look very different if he started off with Showtime and Hamilton averaging 35 ppg as sophs, you are being dishonest.
You are really making an argument that Norm Roberts had a better opportunity then Chris Mullin? Wow! Year 4 of complete rebuild will end the same as 1-3.

-Years 1-3 for Mullin the team has improved...Not as fast as everyone here would have liked.
People talk about his  BE record this year which wasn’t good, but what about his 11-2 OOC record, which is the best in a few decades to include a win over Duke.
-I hear Mullin’s 1st year doesn’t count on this board, it seems to count when people want to use it to show how many BE loses he has. Of you don’t like him it does count...

Year 3 was supposed to be an NIT year and they just missed it despite everything. The hemorrhaging of players is frustrating. This also goes to show why a basketball team shouldn’t graduate players as if they are a football team (lesson learned). The balancing act of this roster has been going on for over a damn decade.

There’s still time for player and personnel to be figured out. The venom on this board is unbelievable. 

Some of you just need to create another thread titled why I hate Coach Mullin use that as a carthasis for your frustration of this team.  It will be a no judgement thread, as long as you don’t threatened mayhem. This could be your Johnny Jungle dream journal thread...




Oh cone on this improved stuff is nonsense.  Improving is going from 4 wins,to 11 wins.  This step by step improving is for grade school.  Are you seriously going to argue that if SJU wins 7 league games next year that is an improvement based on the 4 wins prior year?  Stop that.

Lastly stop dismissing every legitimate criticism as hating on Coach.

With no major NCAA restrictions, no scholarship restrictions, a large staff budget a good coach would have had SJU much farther ahead at this point.  Does that mean he should be fired now, no.  But stop telling me about improvement. 

And by the way how many league games did SJU win by double digits since January?  If you are going to give them credit for close losses how about the 4 league wins and the Duke win being by single digits?  What, SJU only is allowed to win close games not lose them?

4-14 and tie for last is what it is.  And that is not good in year 3.

Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #133 on: March 16, 2018, 07:46:40 PM »
Maybe he's leaving because Keita is better than him
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 07:46:56 PM by Marco Baldi »

ras

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #134 on: March 16, 2018, 07:56:21 PM »
Maybe he's leaving because Keita is better than him
Maybe he’s leaving because Matt has a great grad transfer and JUCO Bigs coming in lol.

nudginator59

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #135 on: March 16, 2018, 08:35:16 PM »
Norm Roberts is in Wichita you think Chris has his number??? :)

I would love Norm here as an assistant and a recruiter.  Norm was. Great guy and could get out and recruit well.  He wasn’t a great head coach, but as an assistant would be fantastic.  I know it would never happen, but it’s not outlandish.
Mullin will have to win 8 big east games just to tie norm after 4 years. That is how bad Mullin is.

Norm inherited three former top 100 recruits and two of them -- Showtime and Lamont Hamilton -- were only sophomores that were all conference. He also inherited Epperson and Ryan
Williams as prior aigneees (although Epperson didn't last long), Phil Missere, and several experienced walkons.

Mullin inherited Alibegovic and Christian Jones with no walkons.

If you don't think Mullin's career record and trajectory don't look very different if he started off with Showtime and Hamilton averaging 35 ppg as sophs, you are being dishonest.
You are really making an argument that Norm Roberts had a better opportunity then Chris Mullin? Wow! Year 4 of complete rebuild will end the same as 1-3.

-Years 1-3 for Mullin the team has improved...Not as fast as everyone here would have liked.
People talk about his  BE record this year which wasn’t good, but what about his 11-2 OOC record, which is the best in a few decades to include a win over Duke.
-I hear Mullin’s 1st year doesn’t count on this board, it seems to count when people want to use it to show how many BE loses he has. Of you don’t like him it does count...

Year 3 was supposed to be an NIT year and they just missed it despite everything. The hemorrhaging of players is frustrating. This also goes to show why a basketball team shouldn’t graduate players as if they are a football team (lesson learned). The balancing act of this roster has been going on for over a damn decade.

There’s still time for player and personnel to be figured out. The venom on this board is unbelievable. 

Some of you just need to create another thread titled why I hate Coach Mullin use that as a carthasis for your frustration of this team.  It will be a no judgement thread, as long as you don’t threatened mayhem. This could be your Johnny Jungle dream journal thread...




Oh cone on this improved stuff is nonsense.  Improving is going from 4 wins,to 11 wins.  This step by step improving is for grade school.  Are you seriously going to argue that if SJU wins 7 league games next year that is an improvement based on the 4 wins prior year?  Stop that.

Lastly stop dismissing every legitimate criticism as hating on Coach.

With no major NCAA restrictions, no scholarship restrictions, a large staff budget a good coach would have had SJU much farther ahead at this point.  Does that mean he should be fired now, no.  But stop telling me about improvement. 

And by the way how many league games did SJU win by double digits since January?  If you are going to give them credit for close losses how about the 4 league wins and the Duke win being by single digits?  What, SJU only is allowed to win close games not lose them?

4-14 and tie for last is what it is.  And that is not good in year 3.

What is it with not acknowledging SOME improvement?  The fact is,  his win total has improved each year. The fact is that he beat real teams and had one of the best weeks ever in college basketball ever. The fact is he is the first SJU coach to beat a #1 team since he was a player...

This  year wasn’t  good enough, and overall was a disappointing. Next year has to be much better and the expectation should be making the tournament. There is a difference between criticism and just teeing off and dumping on the program and the coach...The board looks like Facebook where it’s nothing but he left and right ripping  on each other without in interest in a real discussions.

If this program is making you that emotionally mad, take a step back and take a break. I had to do it during the 11 game losing streak, I was get overly frustrated over a game... I watched the Duke game and then took my daughter to a Daddy daughter dance. That was a great game and day! I understand there passion and frustration, but the venom pouring out sometimes I don’t.

My wife went to TCU, they had a great football season AND basketball season. She has only two shits to give and they are not for football or basketball...I wish I could be that spoiled. I wouldn’t be a Johnny fan. We are St John’s.
Cougar O' Malley

Marillac

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #136 on: March 16, 2018, 08:50:21 PM »
Peeing on yourself is an improvement from shitting on yourself. Doesn’t mean you should be proud that you peed on yourself.

You'll get there one day.

Marillac

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #137 on: March 16, 2018, 08:54:54 PM »
Norm Roberts is in Wichita you think Chris has his number??? :)

I would love Norm here as an assistant and a recruiter.  Norm was. Great guy and could get out and recruit well.  He wasn’t a great head coach, but as an assistant would be fantastic.  I know it would never happen, but it’s not outlandish.
Mullin will have to win 8 big east games just to tie norm after 4 years. That is how bad Mullin is.

Norm inherited three former top 100 recruits and two of them -- Showtime and Lamont Hamilton -- were only sophomores that were all conference. He also inherited Epperson and Ryan
Williams as prior aigneees (although Epperson didn't last long), Phil Missere, and several experienced walkons.

Mullin inherited Alibegovic and Christian Jones with no walkons.

If you don't think Mullin's career record and trajectory don't look very different if he started off with Showtime and Hamilton averaging 35 ppg as sophs, you are being dishonest.
You are really making an argument that Norm Roberts had a better opportunity then Chris Mullin? Wow! Year 4 of complete rebuild will end the same as 1-3.

Norm didn't have a "complete rebuild" idiot. Complete rebuilds don't start with a top 30 PG that scores 20 ppg out of the gate, a top 75 big man that makes all league, a top 100 senior big man, a solid JUCO reserve, Phil Missere, and experienced walkons.

Add Lamont Hamilton and Showtime to Ponds, Simon, and Clark and tell me that team doesn't win tournament games.

Foad

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #138 on: March 16, 2018, 08:59:30 PM »
I'm mostly in the middle of the whole Mullin thing but you are exaggerating things in the opposite direction or are purposely misrepresenting the situation but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Gosh thanks, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt too as to who's purposefully misrepresenting, so I won't call you a liar yet as you've called me or a cunt as I might end up calling you later. Hold your breath. Let's see how the evening unfolds.

Quote
Just because Christian Jones and Damien Williams graduated doesn't mean they didn't transfer. It is called grad transfer for a reason, because it's a transfer. They were here in school, still had eligibility remaining and went to another school to complete that eligibility. That's a transfer.

Yeah possibly, it might be called a grad transfer because it's a transfer or it might be called a grad transfer because they graduated. Let's google and see what turns up. Huh. Here's an article that disagrees with you. It's in Forbes (that's a newspaper) and it's called "Why It's Wrong to Call Graduate Transfers in College Sports Transfers"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bdavidridpath/2015/09/04/graduate-transfers-in-college-sports-even-calling-them-transfers-is-wrong/#5e6963eb4a2c
 
WTF.  Evidently Forbes thinks you're full of shit. Those bastards.

Oddly the NCAA doesn't count players who graduate and thereafter transfer against the APR - that's an advanced analytic the NCAA uses to gauge a school's academic progress for its student athletes - and in fact transferring following graduating is benefical to APR because the player has - wait for it - graduated. Still, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as to whether you're purposefully misrepresenting reality, or as I like to cal it, lying out your ass. Because maybe you're just woefully misinformed. Without further data I hesitate to call you stupid or a liar, as you've called me.

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I'm not saying they were good or bad but they transferred. That plus Ellison and Sima equals 4 transfers. That's still actually probably less than the D1 average but those guys are transfers. Those combined with the other guys leaving well before the staff had planned for them to leave is a very concerning trend

You're very concerned about me "exaggerating." Poster A says nine guys transferred - and he qualifies that but saying that he was only talking about Mullin's players. I correct the record, saying no, two guys transferred. You extend the definition of transfer to include players who graduated and transfered and include players who weren't Mullin's which taking into that account means four players transferred. So I said two and you say four and he said nine and your problem is with me. I know that you're into all this advanced math I'm not capable of understanding but 2 versus a sketchy 4 versus 9, you might want to call the other gut on the carpet before me. Unless you're a cunt obviously, in which case never mind. 

goredmen

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Re: Owens Leaving
« Reply #139 on: March 16, 2018, 10:03:35 PM »
I'm mostly in the middle of the whole Mullin thing but you are exaggerating things in the opposite direction or are purposely misrepresenting the situation but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Gosh thanks, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt too as to who's purposefully misrepresenting, so I won't call you a liar yet as you've called me or a cunt as I might end up calling you later. Hold your breath. Let's see how the evening unfolds.

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Just because Christian Jones and Damien Williams graduated doesn't mean they didn't transfer. It is called grad transfer for a reason, because it's a transfer. They were here in school, still had eligibility remaining and went to another school to complete that eligibility. That's a transfer.

Yeah possibly, it might be called a grad transfer because it's a transfer or it might be called a grad transfer because they graduated. Let's google and see what turns up. Huh. Here's an article that disagrees with you. It's in Forbes (that's a newspaper) and it's called "Why It's Wrong to Call Graduate Transfers in College Sports Transfers"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bdavidridpath/2015/09/04/graduate-transfers-in-college-sports-even-calling-them-transfers-is-wrong/#5e6963eb4a2c
 
WTF.  Evidently Forbes thinks you're full of shit. Those bastards.

Oddly the NCAA doesn't count players who graduate and thereafter transfer against the APR - that's an advanced analytic the NCAA uses to gauge a school's academic progress for its student athletes - and in fact transferring following graduating is benefical to APR because the player has - wait for it - graduated. Still, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as to whether you're purposefully misrepresenting reality, or as I like to cal it, lying out your ass. Because maybe you're just woefully misinformed. Without further data I hesitate to call you stupid or a liar, as you've called me.

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I'm not saying they were good or bad but they transferred. That plus Ellison and Sima equals 4 transfers. That's still actually probably less than the D1 average but those guys are transfers. Those combined with the other guys leaving well before the staff had planned for them to leave is a very concerning trend

You're very concerned about me "exaggerating." Poster A says nine guys transferred - and he qualifies that but saying that he was only talking about Mullin's players. I correct the record, saying no, two guys transferred. You extend the definition of transfer to include players who graduated and transfered and include players who weren't Mullin's which taking into that account means four players transferred. So I said two and you say four and he said nine and your problem is with me. I know that you're into all this advanced math I'm not capable of understanding but 2 versus a sketchy 4 versus 9, you might want to call the other gut on the carpet before me. Unless you're a cunt obviously, in which case never mind. 


Yeah, the first source I go to when I think about college basketball is an opinion piece by a dude at Forbes. I don't exactly how APR works but I'd think that players that transfer from a school after a semester in good academic standing don't hurt that program's APR either. If it did, every program in the country would have APR issues as there will probably be 1,000 D1 transfers this year.

I didn't call the guy you were responding to a liar or an idiot because you did a pretty good job of doing that yourself. If you wan't to not count Jones because he was a Lavin guy that's one thing, but Williams was a Mullin guy and transferred away when all indications were the staff wanted him to stay. If that wasn't the case and the staff pushed him out then I apologize but Williams was a Mullin guy that transferred.

Anyway, that's all semantics. The hard anti-Mullin people are exaggerating one way and the pro-Mullin guys are doing the opposite. The point is the players leaving this program has been very concerning. You say it's not a big deal because it's only 2 transfers and Mullin can't be blamed for the guys that "went pro". Well the fact is that once Yakwe leaves Mullin's entire 6 man initial recruiting class left before their eligibility expired. So instead of me calling you a cunt, I'll try to have an actual discussion. Please tell me if you disagree with my assessment of how much each player can be counted against the staff, relatively speaking.

Lovett - He wasn't supposed to be here long originally and his true colors showed this year. This one is not on Mullin at all.
Sima - Was supposed to be one of the building blocks. Got plenty of PT in his first year and a half and wasn't recruited over. This one definitely counts against the staff.
Yakwe - Showed promise in his Freshman season but then regressed drastically the rest of his time here. Him moving on is the obvious decision for both sides. Won't totally count this one against the staff but his regression was concerning.
Williams - A guy that would have had a role on this team this year that chose to leave. Was brought in by this staff. I count this one against the staff.
Ellison - Probably would have had a role this year but felt he got recruited over. Instead chose to go and sit out a year at one of the few power conference programs that's more of a dumpster fire than this one. This is a half count against the staff to me.
Mussini - Definitely got his fair share of minutes his first couple of years here and that would have continued into this year. I don't think the staff only wanted him for 2 years here just to see him leave when he finally had players around him capable of getting him open shots. His two years here didn't really improve his pro stock in Italy so I count this one against the staff.
Freudenberg - Left after one year of not playing much. Everybody knew he would be a project and wasn't going to play much in year 1 anyway. Staff wouldn't have spent time and resources recruiting him from Germany and brought him here if the plan was for him to play minimal minutes and then leave after one year. Another guy who left despite his stock not yet improving. This one is definitely on the staff.

So yes, the guys that count Rysheed and Obekpa in that are definitely either exaggerating, misrepresenting, idiots or all 3. But to me, to say this hasn't been a problem because the guys that graduated or went pro don't count against the staff is almost equally stupid. That said, I realize Mullin isn't going anywhere and unlike some others here I am rooting for him to succeed and think he still has a chance to. I'm willing to see how the roster shakes out over the spring before entering complete panic mode over yet another defection, but this massive amount of defections are definitely concerning and unsustainable for a program like ours.