Owens Leaving

Kid has been in system for 3 years and at times changed complexion of game, ie butler game and asu game on offense and defense.  This is biggest loss of Mullin era next to Lovett.  He has a nice pnr game with Simon which got better as season went on.   Year 4 not off to start that anyone wants. Good luck to staff trying to get 2 bigs instead of one.

Kid has been in system for 3 years and at times changed complexion of game, ie butler game and asu game on offense and defense.  This is biggest loss of Mullin era next to Lovett.  He has a nice pnr game with Simon which got better as season went on.   Year 4 not off to start that anyone wants. Good luck to staff trying to get 2 bigs instead of one.

I actually think we are ok there with Keita who I think is gonna be pretty good at both ends, and a raw, young Josh Roberts. I’d like one more big guy if some type, but we shall see.  A scoring SF is my biggest priority here.  I still didn’t want to lose Owens who could have helped a ton.

Roberts to me  is a clone of TO, but as a frosh. Staff gets another big, then Roberts can play minimal minutes and be a shot blocker, pogo stick rebounder.

It's absolutely a loss if he leaves.  He is a very good shot blocker, improving offensive player, and plays his tail off.  Sure he has flaws, but I certainly much prefer a front court rotation with him in it.  And while a certain degree of this stuff is unavoidable in the current climate, it would suck to not have this kid in the fold next year. 

I've been very patient with the staff.  Part of it is that I love Chris Mullin and want this to turn out well for him, for me, for everyone who posts here (or at least most of you LOL), and most importantly my Dad who was at SJU just before Mully's time and raised me to be a die-hard.  And part of it is that I recognize what other programs similar to ours have gone through.  Even comparing ours to the Hall -- won their first tourney game in year 8 of this current regime, made their first NCAA in year 6, inherited a much better situation than Mully, and may go on probation in order to have accomplished that.  So I get we need to have a long view, and I understood that so much banked on Lovett and Ponds this year and that we were a lock NIT if not bubble NCAA with him.

Other programs find ways to paper over this stuff.  If Owens leaves this staff needs to do the same. 

I'm shocked nobody linked Owens departure to us getting Jordan Brown!!!!!!

I'm shocked nobody linked Owens departure to us getting Jordan Brown!!!!!!

Sarcasm Hall of Fame inductee very soon Moose!

Quote from: rdstr25 on March 17, 2018, 08:26:53 PM

Kid has been in system for 3 years and at times changed complexion of game, ie butler game and asu game on offense and defense.  This is biggest loss of Mullin era next to Lovett.  He has a nice pnr game with Simon which got better as season went on.   Year 4 not off to start that anyone wants. Good luck to staff trying to get 2 bigs instead of one.

I actually think we are ok there with Keita who I think is gonna be pretty good at both ends, and a raw, young Josh Roberts. I’d like one more big guy if some type, but we shall see.  A scoring SF is my biggest priority here.  I still didn’t want to lose Owens who could have helped a ton.

Interesting, but I think we’re pretty far from ok. We were chicken shit inntge paint and we just replaced a senior to be with Keita - a guy that’s barely played D1 ball. Roberts is a low ranked freshman. There is no reason to expect more than 2 and 2, and even that is asking him to be ready for D1 ball.

We have Clark to play the 3. We also have Simon and Diakite to play the 3. If they recruit another 3, it would be overkill. I wonder if when the staff decides to recruit a player, do they ever bother to look at what they already have first? That would help in preventing a roster that has 6 guys who play the same position. 

Kid has been in system for 3 years and at times changed complexion of game, ie butler game and asu game on offense and defense.  This is biggest loss of Mullin era next to Lovett.  He has a nice pnr game with Simon which got better as season went on.   Year 4 not off to start that anyone wants. Good luck to staff trying to get 2 bigs instead of one.

It’s time for Mullin to start recruiting. He is the laziest coach I’ve ever seen.

Quote from: MCNPA on March 17, 2018, 08:37:24 PM

Quote from: rdstr25 on March 17, 2018, 08:26:53 PM

Kid has been in system for 3 years and at times changed complexion of game, ie butler game and asu game on offense and defense.  This is biggest loss of Mullin era next to Lovett.  He has a nice pnr game with Simon which got better as season went on.   Year 4 not off to start that anyone wants. Good luck to staff trying to get 2 bigs instead of one.

I actually think we are ok there with Keita who I think is gonna be pretty good at both ends, and a raw, young Josh Roberts. I’d like one more big guy if some type, but we shall see.  A scoring SF is my biggest priority here.  I still didn’t want to lose Owens who could have helped a ton.

Interesting, but I think we’re pretty far from ok. We were chicken shit inntge paint and we just replaced a senior to be with Keita - a guy that’s barely played D1 ball. Roberts is a low ranked freshman. There is no reason to expect more than 2 and 2, and even that is asking him to be ready for D1 ball.

We have Clark to play the 3. We also have Simon and Diakite to play the 3. If they recruit another 3, it would be overkill. I wonder if when the staff decides to recruit a player, do they ever bother to look at what they already have first? That would help in preventing a roster that has 6 guys who play the same position.

The staff is very progressive and believes in positionless basketball. 

Quote from: goredmen on March 16, 2018, 10:03:35 PM

Yeah, the first source I go to when I think about college basketball is an opinion piece by a dude at Forbes.

Yeah, and the first source I go to when I think about college basketball isn't you. As usual, YMMV.

<hose>

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I didn't call the guy you were responding to a liar or an idiot because you did a pretty good job of doing that yourself.

Yeah, no I didn't. I was having a pleasant and respectful conversation with a poster with whom I disagreed, which conversation you interrupted to call me a liar.

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If you wan't to not count Jones because he was a Lavin guy that's one thing, but Williams was a Mullin guy and transferred away when all indications were the staff wanted him to stay. If that wasn't the case and the staff pushed him out then I apologize but Williams was a Mullin guy that transferred.

Or he graduated, as did Jones, depending on your perspective, Which difference you in the next sentence you wrote describe as semantics.

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Anyway, that's all semantics.

Huh. So it's all semantics. Which makes me less a liar than someone interested in semantics.

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The hard anti-Mullin people are exaggerating one way and the pro-Mullin guys are doing the opposite. The point is the players leaving this program has been very concerning. You say it's not a big deal

No. I never said it's not a big deal. I said the opposite: "I didn't say the roster churn was good. It's bad. Lack of continuity is bad. Not having enough bodies is bad. It's all very bad."

See? It's all very bad.

Lack of continuity in college basketball rosters is the absolutely worst thing that can happen unless you're Kentucky or dook. Because regular programs cannot hope to compete with elite programs that have access to elite recruits without it.

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because it's only 2 transfers and Mullin can't be blamed for the guys that "went pro". Well the fact is that once Yakwe leaves Mullin's entire 6 man initial recruiting class left before their eligibility expired. So instead of me calling you a cunt

As opposed to just a liar, thanks.

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I'll try to have an actual discussion. Please tell me if you disagree with my assessment of how much each player can be counted against the staff, relatively speaking.

Lovett - He wasn't supposed to be here long originally and his true colors showed this year. This one is not on Mullin at all.
Sima - Was supposed to be one of the building blocks. Got plenty of PT in his first year and a half and wasn't recruited over. This one definitely counts against the staff.
Yakwe - Showed promise in his Freshman season but then regressed drastically the rest of his time here. Him moving on is the obvious decision for both sides. Won't totally count this one against the staff but his regression was concerning.
Williams - A guy that would have had a role on this team this year that chose to leave. Was brought in by this staff. I count this one against the staff.
Ellison - Probably would have had a role this year but felt he got recruited over. Instead chose to go and sit out a year at one of the few power conference programs that's more of a dumpster fire than this one. This is a half count against the staff to me.
Mussini - Definitely got his fair share of minutes his first couple of years here and that would have continued into this year. I don't think the staff only wanted him for 2 years here just to see him leave when he finally had players around him capable of getting him open shots. His two years here didn't really improve his pro stock in Italy so I count this one against the staff.
Freudenberg - Left after one year of not playing much. Everybody knew he would be a project and wasn't going to play much in year 1 anyway. Staff wouldn't have spent time and resources recruiting him from Germany and brought him here if the plan was for him to play minimal minutes and then leave after one year. Another guy who left despite his stock not yet improving. This one is definitely on the staff.

I have no idea how much anything can be counted against the staff nor do I care. What can be counted against the staff is the roster churn. Roster churn is bad and they need to find a way to stabilize things because a second rate program like SJU will never be successful without it. Some of the blame for that is mitigated because of where they started. Some of the blame for that is their own fault. Not being the Christ I don't have to weigh their sins.

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So yes, the guys that count Rysheed and Obekpa in that are definitely either exaggerating, misrepresenting, idiots or all 3. But to me, to say this hasn't been a problem because the guys that graduated or went pro don't count against the staff is almost equally stupid.

Okay, you find me stupid. Which is fine, because I think you're stupid too. Because evidently you can't read. Because I never said it's not a problem and I never said that players leaving had nothing to do with the staff. What I said was - and all I said was - that of the 11 players who left - and it's actually 12, as some helpful poster PM'ed me that I forgot to count Wilson - is that those players were not all transfers and calling them transfers falsifies the record. Which is all said, because as I also said, things are bad enough without mischaracterizing things to make them worse.

So, you have no idea how much can be counted against the staff? Finally, we agree. You sure as shit don’t.

What has happened to your super power of staff analysis? It’s now gone? When Lavin was here, you could analyze every word he said. But Chris Mullin is too complicated of a fellow. Ok.

Let me help you. Lavin has brought in one great player. 3 quality role players. Every other player, recruit and attempt at a recruit has been a complete failure. One isolated incident isn’t a coach’s fault. This entire mess heading into year 4 is.

10th place finish next year

10th place finish next year

10th place needs to happen. He got a B last week. The other site would have given him a higher grade. Rock bottom has to hit. Then we can really start the complete rebuild again.

As noted by many, we can’t afford this level of roster churn. Recruiters like Matt usually have leads on potential transfers well before season’s end.

Sense he has several grad bigs & sit out player on his radar. That said, losing Owens is not the end of the world if Ponds returns, but to dismiss it as nothing does not make sense either. SJU is not good enough at this point to constantly absorb defections of decent players.

Quote from: Marco Baldi on March 18, 2018, 11:57:06 AM

10th place finish next year

10th place needs to happen. He got a B last week. The other site would have given him a higher grade. Rock bottom has to hit. Then we can really start the complete rebuild again.

Utter nonsense. I'm rooting for winning.  Why aren't you?

As noted by many, we can’t afford this level of roster churn. Recruiters like Matt usually have leads on potential transfers well before season’s end.

Sense he has several grad bigs & sit out player on his radar. That said, losing Owens is not the end of the world if Ponds returns, but to dismiss it as nothing does not make sense either. SJU is not good enough at this point to constantly absorb defections of decent players.

+1

Quote from: TONYD3 on March 18, 2018, 12:07:35 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on March 18, 2018, 11:57:06 AM

10th place finish next year

10th place needs to happen. He got a B last week. The other site would have given him a higher grade. Rock bottom has to hit. Then we can really start the complete rebuild again.

Utter nonsense. I'm rooting for winning.  Why aren't you?

I don’t think real wining is possible. We just lost Owens, Ahmed, and yakwe. Lovett quit and hasn’t been replaced. What is the ceiling on Thiis upcoming season ? Are the 4 players we lost being replaced? Is anyone else leaving?
How can you expect to win?

Quote from: RedmenNYC on March 18, 2018, 12:43:16 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on March 18, 2018, 12:07:35 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on March 18, 2018, 11:57:06 AM

10th place finish next year

10th place needs to happen. He got a B last week. The other site would have given him a higher grade. Rock bottom has to hit. Then we can really start the complete rebuild again.

Utter nonsense. I'm rooting for winning.  Why aren't you?

I don’t think real wining is possible. We just lost Owens, Ahmed, and yakwe. Lovett quit and hasn’t been replaced. What is the ceiling on Thiis upcoming season ? Are the 4 players we lost being replaced? Is anyone else leaving?
How can you expect to win?

Do you not realize that we have two transfers and a Top 100 guard playing next year? I'm not totally optimistic about next year, especially in light of losing Owens, but to make it sound like we have zero hope is absolutely ludicrous.

As noted by many, we can’t afford this level of roster churn. Recruiters like Matt usually have leads on potential transfers well before season’s end.

Sense he has several grad bigs & sit out player on his radar. That said, losing Owens is not the end of the world if Ponds returns, but to dismiss it as nothing does not make sense either. SJU is not good enough at this point to constantly absorb defections of decent players.

Well said. In this era of college basketball it is not uncommon to lose 1, 2 or sometimes even 3 players to transfer in a season. However, the concerning thing here is that we are losing some players that generally aren't leaving for better situations. Sima had a role here and transferred to a lateral situation. Same with Ellison. Mussini and Freudenberg both could have played pro before they came here but then left for that option before the staff was ready for their departure. Now Owens is leaving and unless he transfers down a level he won't be a bigger part of the offense than he would be here.

So this means there is an underlying problem within the program. Matt and whoever do a decent job selling their vision to guys but then something is going awry for numerous players after being here for not that long. This has to be fixed otherwise we will never get out of the basement.

Quote from: RedmenNYC on March 18, 2018, 12:43:16 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on March 18, 2018, 12:07:35 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on March 18, 2018, 11:57:06 AM

10th place finish next year

10th place needs to happen. He got a B last week. The other site would have given him a higher grade. Rock bottom has to hit. Then we can really start the complete rebuild again.

Utter nonsense. I'm rooting for winning.  Why aren't you?

Are the 4 players we lost being replaced?

Quote from: RedmenNYC on March 18, 2018, 12:43:16 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on March 18, 2018, 12:07:35 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on March 18, 2018, 11:57:06 AM

10th place finish next year

10th place needs to happen. He got a B last week. The other site would have given him a higher grade. Rock bottom has to hit. Then we can really start the complete rebuild again.

Utter nonsense. I'm rooting for winning.  Why aren't you?

I don’t think real wining is possible. We just lost Owens, Ahmed, and yakwe. Lovett quit and hasn’t been replaced. What is the ceiling on Thiis upcoming season ? Are the 4 players we lost being replaced? Is anyone else leaving?
How can you expect to win?

Have you lost your blanky?  Can you replace your lost blanky? Will you be able to make it through yet another day without your blanky?  Did anyone else lose their blanky? How can you expect to survive without your blanky?  Tune in to Tony's next post for yet another riveting episode of my life sucks because of Mullin

Quote from: TONYD3 on March 18, 2018, 12:55:14 PM

Quote from: RedmenNYC on March 18, 2018, 12:43:16 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on March 18, 2018, 12:07:35 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on March 18, 2018, 11:57:06 AM

10th place finish next year

10th place needs to happen. He got a B last week. The other site would have given him a higher grade. Rock bottom has to hit. Then we can really start the complete rebuild again.

Utter nonsense. I'm rooting for winning.  Why aren't you?

I don’t think real wining is possible. We just lost Owens, Ahmed, and yakwe. Lovett quit and hasn’t been replaced. What is the ceiling on Thiis upcoming season ? Are the 4 players we lost being replaced? Is anyone else leaving?
How can you expect to win?

Do you not realize that we have two transfers and a Top 100 guard playing next year? I'm not totally optimistic about next year, especially in light of losing Owens, but to make it sound like we have zero hope is absolutely ludicrous.

I am aware of the new players. Are they better, equal or worse then the guys who left?