ST JOHNS VS DUKE

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ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« on: August 11, 2008, 03:26:59 PM »
Who would be on our team?

DUKE
PG Johnny Dawkins
SG JJ Reddick
SF Grant Hill
PF Christian Laettner
C   Mike Gminski

Bench players listed below


http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/story/8437764/Picking-the-all-time-Duke-team-(Coach-K-edition)

NOTE: Not being 100 years old or having access to lots of old footage, this list is the top players of the COACH K era which means from 1980-present. So for those looking for men like Art Heyman, Gene Banks and Marl Alarie you won't find them. Even though they would all be locks for the all-time team I simply do not know enough about them to give them justice.


PG -- Johnny Dawkins
Even with other greats like Bobby Hurley, Jason Williams and Jeff Capel this is a no-brainer. Dawkins is an amazing point guard who was always able to make the players around him better while still finding moments to take over the game. Dawkins finished his career with 2,556 points, which is the third highest total in the history of the ACC.

His senior year he won the Naismith award and helped lead the Blue Devils to a 37-3 (which was an NCAA-record for wins in a season at the time). Dawkins had 555 assists, sixth best in school history and nearly 200 steals. Dawkins simply did a little bit of everything.

Dawkins was named one of the top 50 players in ACC history and was pegged as the 78th best college basketball player of all-time according to the Sporting News. He went on to a nine-year career in the NBA and became a long-time assistant at Duke before recently accepting a job at Stanford.

Undoubtedly, Dawkins will be a favorite to take over for Coach K when retirement eventually comes, a testament to his leadership and significance to Duke basketball.


SG -- J.J. Redick
Love him or hate him, Redick had one amazing career at Duke. Redick is probably one of the best pure shooters in the history of the game and even if he was not a lockdown defender, he shattered some records that once seemed unbreakable.

Redick broke former Cavalier Curtis Staples' record for 3-pointers in a career and Jeff Lamp's ACC record for most consecutive free throws. He also became the all-time leading scorer at Duke and ACC history with 2,769 points in his career.

Redick won eight different national awards his senior year for player of the year and simply knew how to hit big shots when it mattered. The truth is that teams had to plan against Redick and most of the time that could never really stop him.

Redick will be remembered by Duke-haters for not being able to win a national championship, but he still led his team to a 112-23 and three ACC tournament titles.

I think most teams will take that any day.


SF -- Grant Hill
It's hard not to like Grant Hill. As much as everyone remembers Laettner's miracle shot against Kentucky, it was Hill who made the equally impressive 75-foot pass that most Duke quarterbacks may not have been able to make.

Hill was part of two national championship teams and put up some amazing career numbers. Hill was the first ACC player to have 1,900 points, 700 rebounds, 400 assists, 200 steals and 100 blocked shots. He was also a two-time National Defensive Player of the Year.

Hill, despite the individual accomplishments, is the ultimate team player. He always looked for the extra pass and played with a selfless attitude. It is that persona that helped lead Duke to all those victories during his tenure. If this team could actually happen, he is the kind of guy every team needs to be successful.

Hill has had a long and injury-plagued NBA career but he still will go down as one of the best to ever play the game.


C -- Mike Gminski
The "G-Man" was a ferocious center who could attack the basket and put up some big numbers. Gminski scored over 2,300 points in his career. That is good for fourth in Duke history and seventh in the ACC. He is also second in blocks and rebounds behind Shelden Williams in the Duke history books.

Also, Gminski's ability to hit from the charity stripe was quite impressive. The big man averaged 84 percent for his career. No wonder he made a first or second team All-American for three consecutive years and the ACC Rookie of the Year.

Gminski put up all of these numbers before Duke became the perennial powerhouse that we now know. He helped set the standard for big men in the ACC and since then his legacy has only grown.


PF -- Christian Laettner
So maybe he can't stick with an NBA team, but Laettner was not only one of Duke's top players but one of the best in the history of college basketball.

Forget his miracle shot against Kentucky in the Elite Eight that helped take them to a second straight national championship for a moment.

Laettner is the only man in NCAA history to start a game in the Final Four all four years he was in college. He holds the record for most points scored, most free throws made and attempted, and most games played in NCAA tournament history.

In other words, the man could play in the clutch.

Laettner was also the ONLY college player on the 1992 Olympic Dream Team. That's right he was on the same team as Jordan, Pippen, Magic, Barkley and every other Hall of Famer the NBA could boast at the time.

Laettner finished his career fourth and third respectively in Duke history in scoring and rebounding becoming only one of a handful of players to have both over 2000 points and 1000 rebounds in a career.


Best of the rest
Danny Ferry: He still holds the Duke record for most points scored in a game.

Bobby Hurley: Over 1,000 assists in his career, that is almost twice that of Dawkins. He also has two championship rings.

Shane Battier: He was a great team leader and defensive force, plus he could score too.

Elton Brand: Brand was an amazing player who is near the tops in blocks in school history. He may not have the career numbers of others, but he certainly has the game to compete with any and all comers.

Jeff Capel: He has to be on this list for the half-court shot against UNC alone.


Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2008, 03:31:51 PM »
This is a really interesting concept.

St. John's All-Time

vs

Duke All-Time

hmmm lets get the lineup together guys
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Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2008, 03:32:38 PM »
Also Deng would be a pretty good choice for Duke although he had a short career there.
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Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2008, 03:43:09 PM »
forgot
Also Deng would be a pretty good choice for Duke although he had a short career there.
Also Deng would be a pretty good choice for Duke although he had a short career there.

Carlos Boozer

Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2008, 03:54:17 PM »
PG Mark Jackson
SG Malik Sealy
SF Chris Mullin
PF Walter Berry
C   Bill Wennington

Bench

Ron Artest
MArcus Hatten
Jayson Williams
Felipe Lopez
Zendon Hamilton

Looks like a decent matchup on paper but I still think Duke wins by 30. I cant even say that Coach K calls of the dogs and puts in the bench cause the Duke bench might lightup our starters as well

Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2008, 04:13:34 PM »
PG Mark Jackson
SG Malik Sealy
SF Chris Mullin
PF Walter Berry
C   Bill Wennington

Bench

Ron Artest
MArcus Hatten
Jayson Williams
Felipe Lopez
Zendon Hamilton

Looks like a decent matchup on paper but I still think Duke wins by 30. I cant even say that Coach K calls of the dogs and puts in the bench cause the Duke bench might lightup our starters as well


Bootsy has got to be on the bench too.
Never compared his stats, but I would think he compared favorably over Felipe,
who was a stat leader, but FG% not too good, if I remember.

Also if Artest doesn't start, he's 6th man getting starter minutes.
Molloy '71

Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2008, 04:34:21 PM »
our starting five could give them a run for their money...but their second 5 is as strong as their first 5.

I think Ron Ron should be starting over Sealy...even though Malik is easily my favorite Johnny
When you're a kid from New York and you do it in New York, that lasts forever!

Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2008, 06:18:25 PM »
PG Mark Jackson
SG Malik Sealy
SF Chris Mullin
PF Walter Berry
C   Bill Wennington

Bench

Ron Artest
MArcus Hatten
Jayson Williams
Felipe Lopez
Zendon Hamilton

Looks like a decent matchup on paper but I still think Duke wins by 30. I cant even say that Coach K calls of the dogs and puts in the bench cause the Duke bench might lightup our starters as well


Boo Harvey over Mark Jackson all day long.

Glen Williams > Lopez

George Johnson > Wennington

Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2008, 06:20:34 PM »
PG Mark Jackson
SG Malik Sealy
SF Chris Mullin
PF Walter Berry
C   Bill Wennington

Bench

Ron Artest
MArcus Hatten
Jayson Williams
Felipe Lopez
Zendon Hamilton

Looks like a decent matchup on paper but I still think Duke wins by 30. I cant even say that Coach K calls of the dogs and puts in the bench cause the Duke bench might lightup our starters as well


Boo Harvey over Mark Jackson all day long.

Glen Williams > Lopez

George Johnson > Wennington


Why would you take Boo over Jackson? Ive never seen Johnson or Williams play, so that is my team. BTW we are only considering the Coach K era which is from 1980 on

Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2008, 01:40:54 PM »
this Duke team looks much better on paper. Like it was said before perhaps 1-5 we can hang but 6-10 its a big fall off.
Follow Johnny Jungle on Twitter at @Johnny_Jungle

Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2008, 02:17:12 PM »
PG Mark Jackson
SG Malik Sealy
SF Chris Mullin
PF Walter Berry
C   Bill Wennington

Bench

Ron Artest
MArcus Hatten
Jayson Williams
Felipe Lopez
Zendon Hamilton

Looks like a decent matchup on paper but I still think Duke wins by 30. I cant even say that Coach K calls of the dogs and puts in the bench cause the Duke bench might lightup our starters as well


Boo Harvey over Mark Jackson all day long.

Glen Williams > Lopez

George Johnson > Wennington


don't overrate boo harvey.  he was a good player..but no mark jackson.  glen williams usually was lights out for one half of the game...and a disappearing act in the other.  i liked him and the team did better with him than it did with lopez..but lopez was a far superior player.

george johnson was superior to wennington...but being forced to play center at 6'7 hurt him down the road.  carnesecca said johnson was one of the four most intelligent players who suited up for him.

Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2008, 03:41:39 PM »
don't overrate boo harvey.  he was a good player..but no mark jackson.  glen williams usually was lights out for one half of the game...and a disappearing act in the other.  i liked him and the team did better with him than it did with lopez..but lopez was a far superior player.

george johnson was superior to wennington...but being forced to play center at 6'7 hurt him down the road.  carnesecca said johnson was one of the four most intelligent players who suited up for him.


The numbers don't support your claim about Lopez.

Senior Year

Williams 21 ppg / 104 ass / 3.2 reb

Lopez 17 ppg / 85 ass / 4.7 reb

Career

Williams: 15 ppg / 5 reb / 145 to vs 270 ass / 51 fg %
Lopez:      16 ppg / 6 reb / 350 to vs 275 ass / 41 fg %

No 3 point shot when Williams played either.

=====

Mark Jackson had a brilliant senior year, his first three not so much. Anyway, there's not a lot separating these three. Jackson's edge is in assists, but over four years the others are comparable. And MJ was feeding Berry for two years, Mullin for one. If you want MJ, can't really fault you.


Reggie Carter

15 ppg / 4 reb pg / 250 ass / 47 % (2.5 yrs)

Boo Harvey

14 ppg / 2 reb / 300 ass / 45 % (2 yrs)

M Jackson

10 ppg / 2.5 reb / 700 ass / 51 %

======

David Russell (15 ppg / 7rb) bears consideration as well.

Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2008, 06:14:01 PM »
you can always go back and forth on these.  it's not always about numbers..but the numbers do bear out lopez as a superior player..third leading scorer in team history who played with a "black hole" assistwise in zendon hamilton.  in other words, he could have scored more if z (fifth leading scorer all-time) would have given up the ball a bit more.  lopez was also a very good rebounder...williams also was...but he wasn't as good as lopez.

it's true, williams had a gaudier senior year that was better, pointwise, than any of lopez'..but that had to make up for the 10 and 12 ppg he put up in his first two years.  and williams committed the ultimate sin..being on a team that lost to iona.

harvey over jackson??? don't think so. i remember harvey being more clutch...and he had a 40 point game to his credit.  but jackson is all time in assists...way up there in steals and led the team to more wins than any other point guard at the school.

this aside...even though he was only 6'7". and had to play center..george johnson is the all time career rebounder at st john's...by alot.

Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2008, 06:33:01 PM »
you can always go back and forth on these.  it's not always about numbers..but the numbers do bear out lopez as a superior player..third leading scorer in team history who played with a "black hole" assistwise in zendon hamilton.  in other words, he could have scored more if z (fifth leading scorer all-time) would have given up the ball a bit more.  lopez was also a very good rebounder...williams also was...but he wasn't as good as lopez.

it's true, williams had a gaudier senior year that was better, pointwise, than any of lopez'..but that had to make up for the 10 and 12 ppg he put up in his first two years.  and williams committed the ultimate sin..being on a team that lost to iona.

harvey over jackson??? don't think so. i remember harvey being more clutch...and he had a 40 point game to his credit.  but jackson is all time in assists...way up there in steals and led the team to more wins than any other point guard at the school.

this aside...even though he was only 6'7". and had to play center..george johnson is the all time career rebounder at st john's...by alot.

Felipe and Zendon lost to IONA

http://www.redmen.com/NS-BoxScores-req-viewbxs-gid-566.html

Poison

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Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2008, 07:16:47 PM »
How many people on this board could even attempt that question accurately?

I know I can't.

Never saw Sonny Dove or Tony Jackson.

From the guys I saw...

PG - Mark Jackson
SG - Marcus Hatten
SF - Malik Sealy
PF - Walter Berry
C - Jayson Williams

Bench - 6th man - Artest, next - Werdan, Barkley, Thornton, Glass, Postell and Shelton Jones.

Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2008, 07:36:15 PM »
our starting five could give them a run for their money...but their second 5 is as strong as their first 5.

Sure they can, just like our starting has given their starting five a "run for their money" the last two times we played them.  So lets break this one down: you think our starting five can give a starting five consisting of a 2-time National defensive player of the year winner , the alltime ACC leading scorer and alltime NCAA 3 point king, a Naismith award winner, a three time first team all american, and perhaps the greatest college basketball player in the last 30 years.  On top of that, Coach K would coach circles around anything we would put out there, except maybe Mike Jarvis, since he is the only SJU coach with any type of success vs. Duke.  You make a really, really great argument. :o ::)

I think Ron Ron should be starting over Sealy...even though Malik is easily my favorite Johnny

I think I should be able to cut the line at the supermarket because I am superior to everyone, but unfortunately, that's not the way it works.

If you look at Seally's overall body of work as a college player, it is far better than Ron Artest's, and I, for one, am one of Ron Artest's biggest fans.

Another fantastic post by you!
This signature has been edited at the request of the Mighty Mods of the Jungle.

Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2008, 10:51:12 PM »
Sure they can, just like our starting has given their starting five a "run for their money" the last two times we played them.  So lets break this one down: you think our starting five can give a starting five consisting of a 2-time National defensive player of the year winner , the alltime ACC leading scorer and alltime NCAA 3 point king, a Naismith award winner, a three time first team all american, and perhaps the greatest college basketball player in the last 30 years.  On top of that, Coach K would coach circles around anything we would put out there, except maybe Mike Jarvis, since he is the only SJU coach with any type of success vs. Duke.  You make a really, really great argument. :o ::)

I think I should be able to cut the line at the supermarket because I am superior to everyone, but unfortunately, that's not the way it works.

If you look at Seally's overall body of work as a college player, it is far better than Ron Artest's, and I, for one, am one of Ron Artest's biggest fans.

Another fantastic post by you!
Perhaps you're too young and you were never able to see Mullin and Berry in action.  Mullin was a 3 time Big East player of the year in the best conference in the country and a Wooden award winner.  Berry was a 1 time Big East player of the year in the best conference in the country and a Wooden award winner.

I can't argue about Artest/Sealy because I can definitely see how someone would select Sealy.  JMO that Artest is a better player.

I do believe that Duke has the better team on paper but if a real game was played we would "give them a run for their money" so to speak especially if JJ Redick is in their starting five.  Play by play brought to you by St. John's very own Mike Crispino.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1q0iB9YHKas
When you're a kid from New York and you do it in New York, that lasts forever!

Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2008, 08:50:54 AM »
Sure they can, just like our starting has given their starting five a "run for their money" the last two times we played them.  So lets break this one down: you think our starting five can give a starting five consisting of a 2-time National defensive player of the year winner , the alltime ACC leading scorer and alltime NCAA 3 point king, a Naismith award winner, a three time first team all american, and perhaps the greatest college basketball player in the last 30 years.  On top of that, Coach K would coach circles around anything we would put out there, except maybe Mike Jarvis, since he is the only SJU coach with any type of success vs. Duke.  You make a really, really great argument. :o ::)

I think I should be able to cut the line at the supermarket because I am superior to everyone, but unfortunately, that's not the way it works.

If you look at Seally's overall body of work as a college player, it is far better than Ron Artest's, and I, for one, am one of Ron Artest's biggest fans.

Another fantastic post by you!
Perhaps you're too young and you were never able to see Mullin and Berry in action.  Mullin was a 3 time Big East player of the year in the best conference in the country and a Wooden award winner.  Berry was a 1 time Big East player of the year in the best conference in the country and a Wooden award winner.

I can't argue about Artest/Sealy because I can definitely see how someone would select Sealy.  JMO that Artest is a better player.

I do believe that Duke has the better team on paper but if a real game was played we would "give them a run for their money" so to speak especially if JJ Redick is in their starting five.  Play by play brought to you by St. John's very own Mike Crispino.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1q0iB9YHKas

That's all well and good that this is what you think, but it's just simply incorrect.

Of the 5 starters for SJU, who would be able to go to Duke's starting 5 and step in over their counterpart and start on that team?  Mullin over Reddick?  Since we are going by college careers only, then maybe that's the only one, and reddick has better #'s, more wins, etc etc etc.

Duke is the top program of the last 25 years in college basketball, and unfortunately we are not a patch on their fannie. 

This idea of you thinking Duke and SJU would be close is patently ridiculous.

As for the Seally/Artest argument, it is obvious that Ron is the better pro and Malik (God rest his soul) had his career end pre-maturely, but since we are talking college careers here (again this goes back to reading comprehension 101), it is not even a debate who is a better all-around player: Seally or Artest.  Ron was a good St. John's player who bolted after 2 seasons, had he stayed for 4 seasons, then maybe you would be able to hold a debate where you  "give me a run for my money" but since he left after 2 years, and Malik stayed four and had one of the greatest careers anyone ever to wear an SJU uniform has had, you debating me is still like a Middle-weight stepping into the ring with Mike Tyson in his prime-- a complete mismatch!

Edited by: Jumpinjohnny

You make great points no need for a personal attack in the middle.




« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 09:04:06 AM by jumpinjohnny »
This signature has been edited at the request of the Mighty Mods of the Jungle.

Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2008, 09:07:10 AM »
You're looking at resumes and playing the game on paper and I agree that Duke is better but I'm thinking more along the lines of actually playing the game.  Its understandable since you never seen half of those guys actually play. 
When you're a kid from New York and you do it in New York, that lasts forever!

Re: ST JOHNS VS DUKE
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2008, 09:29:52 AM »
You're looking at resumes and playing the game on paper and I agree that Duke is better but I'm thinking more along the lines of actually playing the game.  Its understandable since you never seen half of those guys actually play. 

You have no idea who I have seen/haven't seen play, but thanks for making another ridiculous assumption.

Additionally, thank you for editting my post.  That was a nice attempt by you to make me humililating you by exposing you for the know-nothing that you are, so keep using those moderator super powers to your advantage.  I'm sure they make you feel special!!

This signature has been edited at the request of the Mighty Mods of the Jungle.