Game 7: Georgia Tech (Hoophall Miami Invitational)

I'm just being cautiously optimistic. I want nothing more than for him to win big this year.

Wasn’t implying you just meant in general

I cheer for Mullin and want him to succeed. The team is 7-0 and Mullin should get credit for that as the coach. However my statement was pertaining to the game coaching of Pastner vs. Mullin. Now unless Mullin told the team to deviate from the offensive system which involves ball movement, then I'm reluctant to give Mullin credit (from a coaching adjustment perspective) for something Ponds single handily did.   

You're overanalyzing this stuff.  A win is a win and a loss is a loss and never the twain shall meet.  That's all there is really.

I think you and some others are confusing support for blind loyalty. No one wants to see us lose. That’s insane.

I stand by my statements.  Criticism of Mullin is low down, disgusting and indicative of possessing low moral character.

Damn this isn't that difficult to grasp. I'm not giving the staff credit for the development of Ponds, who as a freshman averaged over 17pts a game and as a sophomore averaged over 21pts a game. If you do, then lets look at other players the staff had a least 2 years to work with and see how they progressed.

Clark and Simon - 3rd year with the program, they have regressed from last year. Hopefully their play improves but as of right now that is the case.
T. Owens - 3 years with the program and didn't show any improvement.   
AA - 3 years, results speak for themselves.
B. Ahmed - Didn't improve in the second year like Ponds showed.
K. Yakwe - Similar to Ponds, the previous staff was recruiting him but the current staff signed him. Top 100 kid, thought he would lay the foundation, we had him for 3 years, had a promising freshman year then dropped off a cliff. 

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Let's just pump the breaks a little on giving the staff credit for developing Ponds non sense. Who else have they developed to warrant that credit? Ponds developed Ponds. He is a once in a generation type of player.

So Simon and Clark have regressed? After 7 games and 2 new go to guys that are better than both of them offensively, they've regressed? You have ZERO idea of what you're talking about. Figuring out your role on a team is different from regressing. Simon doesn't even play the same position he played last year and Clark SHOULD take a lesser role offensively. Clark has fouled too much, obviously, so you want to say that Mullin's fault for not developing him, then go ahead. It's nice personic, but go ahead.

You saying Owens and Yakwe didn't get any better is assuming they wanted to. Do you know why they transferred? Are you sure it wasn't because they had some demands placed on them that they simply didn't want to adhere to? It's a very common tale. And by the way, they are having Tariq and Kassoum type seasons with their new teams. I never thought AA was going to be much and watching Bashir's mechanics, he had a ceiling.

I love Ponds, but he is by no means a once in a generation type player. Once in a generation type players don't get told by the NBA that they aren't ready. Once in a generation type players don't play college ball as juniors. He ABSOLUTELY has been developed, and he continues to be so. Not giving this staff credit for helping to develop that young man is simply being a curmudgeon.

I love Ponds, but he is by no means a once in a generation type player. Once in a generation type players don't get told by the NBA that they aren't ready.

I meant a once in a generation player here at St. John's.  I didn't mean it on a national scale.

Now you're just cherrypicking. All 4 years are on Mullin. It's his program and he has to own that and all of the players who he's coached. Not just Ponds and not just the two guys who played 3 years for him as you say. So far this year is going well but don't act like he's still not firmly on the hot seat after 7 games. That is turning a blind eye to his previous 3 years of complete struggles here.

We shall see how it ends up but don't be naive enough to act like all is well now that he's 7-0 against a lightweight schedule. The upcoming BE season will be the real tell tale on his future.

If you told any reasonable fan that in his fourth season Mullin would have us 12-0 with three top 35 recruits (one all-conference and one all-American), a JUCO All-American who is legit and has 3 years of eligibility, two rookies of the year transfers from smaller conferences, a top 100 big man who averaged 10 mpg for a Final Four Team, another big that played 10 mpg for a Final Four team, and a top 100 transfer from Miss St. in year four, we all would have taken it.

In a perfect world it would have happened last year--and it would have if Lovett didn't f*ck us.

Mullin and his staff will only get better with experience.

So Simon and Clark have regressed? After 7 games and 2 new go to guys that are better than both of them offensively, they've regressed? You have ZERO idea of what you're talking about. Figuring out your role on a team is different from regressing. Simon doesn't even play the same position he played last year and Clark SHOULD take a lesser role offensively. Clark has fouled too much, obviously, so you want to say that Mullin's fault for not developing him, then go ahead. It's nice personic, but go ahead.

You saying Owens and Yakwe didn't get any better is assuming they wanted to. Do you know why they transferred? Are you sure it wasn't because they had some demands placed on them that they simply didn't want to adhere to? It's a very common tale. And by the way, they are having Tariq and Kassoum type seasons with their new teams. I never thought AA was going to be much and watching Bashir's mechanics, he had a ceiling.

I love Ponds, but he is by no means a once in a generation type player. Once in a generation type players don't get told by the NBA that they aren't ready. Once in a generation type players don't play college ball as juniors. He ABSOLUTELY has been developed, and he continues to be so. Not giving this staff credit for helping to develop that young man is simply being a curmudgeon.

I don't understand these guys that breeze past the fact that we only have four returning players from last year and three of them have only played here one season. On top of that, two of them have to play different positions!

We are several weeks away from getting it together.

Wait....Owens didn't improve? How? What?

So Simon and Clark have regressed? After 7 games and 2 new go to guys that are better than both of them offensively, they've regressed? You have ZERO idea of what you're talking about. Figuring out your role on a team is different from regressing. Simon doesn't even play the same position he played last year and Clark SHOULD take a lesser role offensively.

Figuring out your role on a team? This is their 3rd year with the program, if anyone should be "figuring out their role on the team" would be Heron. He appears to be adjusting just fine 7 games in. Not trying to be a A-hole, I'm sure the new additions will impact them, but you are speculating that the reason for their drop off is they need to adjust. That is entirely possible, but until proven otherwise, as of right now, they have regressed. That is not speculative.

Clark has fouled too much, obviously, so you want to say that Mullin's fault for not developing him, then go ahead. It's nice personic, but go ahead.

You stating that it's nice personic to state that means your knowledge base on coaching is limited. Not fouling is 100% coached, that is if the staff values that element and take the time to instill that into their players with drills during practice time. It is clear that the defensive side of the ball has been ignored by this staff. Another area were they are failing in development.

You saying Owens and Yakwe didn't get any better is assuming they wanted to. Do you know why they transferred? Are you sure it wasn't because they had some demands placed on them that they simply didn't want to adhere to? It's a very common tale.

Or there could have been no demands placed on them and they decided to get out while they could. You see, two can play that game. Yes and until proven otherwise that is the assumption and to speculate otherwise absent of any evidence is nice personic. I'm not going down that rabbit hole. Yakwe regressed each year he played. That's not assuming anything, that's fact and that is on the staff.

And by the way, they are having Tariq and Kassoum type seasons with their new teams.

You know when you was writing all that stuff about Simon and Clark only being 7 games in (even though it's their 3rd year in the program) and 2 new guys that are better than them and they need to figure out their role on a team. I was thinking, this is some bullshit, now I read this and know it really was. 

I love Ponds, but he is by no means a once in a generation type player. Once in a generation type players don't get told by the NBA that they aren't ready. Once in a generation type players don't play college ball as juniors.

Ponds is the best player SJU has had in a generation. I could give 2 shits about the NBA or their prospects of playing in the NBA. He could be a complete bust as a pro, like many top college players are and it wouldn't change their impact as a college player.

He ABSOLUTELY has been developed, and he continues to be so. Not giving this staff credit for helping to develop that young man is simply being a curmudgeon.

Ponds came in averaging 17pts a game as a freshmen. Giving the staff credit for all the hard work and dedication he put in to making himself the player he is today is simply being a blow hard.

until proven otherwise, as of right now, they have regressed. That is not speculative.

How has Simon regressed. FG percentage is higher, 3-pt percentage is pretty much identical, FT percentage higher, three fewer points, 1.5 rebounds, assists are down and TO's are down, in about 10 percent fewer minutes per game. How exactly has he regressed.

How has Simon regressed. FG percentage is higher, 3-pt percentage is pretty much identical, FT percentage higher, three fewer points, 1.5 rebounds, assists are down and TO's are down, in about 10 percent fewer minutes per game. How exactly has he regressed.

I'm always looking through the perspective of the defensive side of the ball. I believe if Ponds was developed defensively he would have left for the draft. Simon's rebounding and steals have dropped significantly when we are playing inferior competition. Look I see how I'm coming off, but trust me, I don't expect the staff to make water out of wine. Not every player is going to improve year over year. 

How has Simon regressed. FG percentage is higher, 3-pt percentage is pretty much identical, FT percentage higher, three fewer points, 1.5 rebounds, assists are down and TO's are down, in about 10 percent fewer minutes per game. How exactly has he regressed.

I have to agree. He was great on Saturday in the second half. He did what we want him to do.

Simon's rebounding and steals have dropped significantly

His rebounding is down from 7.1 to 5.9 pg. That's 1.2 pg. His steals are down from 2.5 to 1.6, that's .09 pg. In about 4 fewer minutes per game. You might consider that significant, I do not. It's certainly not proof of regression.

I'm always looking through the perspective of the defensive side of the ball. I believe if Ponds was developed defensively he would have left for the draft. Simon's rebounding and steals have dropped significantly when we are playing inferior competition. Look I see how I'm coming off, but trust me, I don't expect the staff to make water out of wine. Not every player is going to improve year over year. 

(1) How many sophomores are "developed" defensively?!

(2) Ponds is not a super athlete and he's not a big kid so defense will never be his bread and butter. That written, if you can't see improvement in his defense in just the first few games to the last handful then you either don't know the game or you aren't watching close enough.

I think this team plays good defense. You can't just look at shooting percentages. I think they need to do a better job of sticking to there assignments. A lot of times they give up an open 3 because they swarm. They force a lot of turnovers though and play pretty solid on ball defense.

Don't see what most of this has to do with the Ga. Tech game.  Why not start a topic called "General Bitchin" and then folks who want to complain there can and the rest can skip it so they can read about the stated topic; in this case Ga. Tech.game

His rebounding is down from 7.1 to 5.9 pg. That's 1.2 pg. His steals are down from 2.5 to 1.6, that's .09 pg. In about 4 fewer minutes per game. You might consider that significant, I do not. It's certainly not proof of regression.

The competition element is key. Your comparing Simon's numbers so far this year while looking at the totality of last years numbers which includes BE play. You should expect the numbers to come down once the level of competition increases, and vise versa. There is some speculation on my part, but I'm anticipating his numbers to come down even more once BE play starts. After the first 7 games of the season last year, Simon was averaging 33.9 mpg, 8.7 rpg, 2.86 spg, and 1.1 bpg. So far this year, 32.4 mpg, 5.7 rpg, 1.6 spg, and 0.4 bpg.

In 1.5 fewer minutes that's:
-3.00 rpg
-1.3 spg
-0.7 bpg

I believe that's significant. It could all change in a couple of months and my assumptions could be proven false and I will have egg on my face, but right now, the numbers don't lie.

Figuring out your role on a team? This is their 3rd year with the program, if anyone should be "figuring out their role on the team" would be Heron. He appears to be adjusting just fine 7 games in. Not trying to be a A-hole, I'm sure the new additions will impact them, but you are speculating that the reason for their drop off is they need to adjust. That is entirely possible, but until proven otherwise, as of right now, they have regressed. That is not speculative.

You stating that it's nice personic to state that means your knowledge base on coaching is limited. Not fouling is 100% coached, that is if the staff values that element and take the time to instill that into their players with drills during practice time. It is clear that the defensive side of the ball has been ignored by this staff. Another area were they are failing in development.

Or there could have been no demands placed on them and they decided to get out while they could. You see, two can play that game. Yes and until proven otherwise that is the assumption and to speculate otherwise absent of any evidence is nice personic. I'm not going down that rabbit hole. Yakwe regressed each year he played. That's not assuming anything, that's fact and that is on the staff.

You know when you was writing all that stuff about Simon and Clark only being 7 games in (even though it's their 3rd year in the program) and 2 new guys that are better than them and they need to figure out their role on a team. I was thinking, this is some bullshit, now I read this and know it really was. 

Ponds is the best player SJU has had in a generation. I could give 2 shits about the NBA or their prospects of playing in the NBA. He could be a complete bust as a pro, like many top college players are and it wouldn't change their impact as a college player.

Ponds came in averaging 17pts a game as a freshmen. Giving the staff credit for all the hard work and dedication he put in to making himself the player he is today is simply being a blow hard.

You are right on on a couple of things. First, Yakwe and Tariq do need time to adjust. Unfair for me to say otherwise. One hundred percent correct on that. Marvin's foul troubles can absolutely be a deficiency in coaching. That is also true. Ridiculous for me to disregard that as well. Apologies.

I think my overall point sometimes gets lost in my arguments because I feel like the staff gets shit on way more than they should. My overall point is actually very simple.....when it comes to developing players, there are so many variables that one can hardly ever determine the main factors as to why someone exceeds expectations and why another wilts. Your insistence that it's a staff only issue is simply false. And yes, that is your stance.

I have NEVER given the staff full credit for ANYONE'S development because it's NEVER one sided. For you to dismiss them as having zero impact on any positive development and all the impact on those who don't work out is just wrong.

The competition element is key. Your comparing Simon's numbers so far this year while looking at the totality of last years numbers which includes BE play. You should expect the numbers to come down once the level of competition increases, and vise versa. There is some speculation on my part, but I'm anticipating his numbers to come down even more once BE play starts. After the first 7 games of the season last year, Simon was averaging 33.9 mpg, 8.7 rpg, 2.86 spg, and 1.1 bpg. So far this year, 32.4 mpg, 5.7 rpg, 1.6 spg, and 0.4 bpg.

In 1.5 fewer minutes that's:
-3.00 rpg
-1.3 spg
-0.7 bpg

I believe that's significant. It could all change in a couple of months and my assumptions could be proven false and I will have egg on my face, but right now, the numbers don't lie.

Do you think Simon and Clark played better in BE play last year than they did in OOC? Cause I do. 

You are right on on a couple of things. First, Yakwe and Tariq do need time to adjust. Unfair for me to say otherwise. One hundred percent correct on that. Marvin's foul troubles can absolutely be a deficiency in coaching. That is also true. Ridiculous for me to disregard that as well. Apologies.

I think my overall point sometimes gets lost in my arguments because I feel like the staff gets shit on way more than they should. My overall point is actually very simple.....when it comes to developing players, there are so many variables that one can hardly ever determine the main factors as to why someone exceeds expectations and why another wilts. Your insistence that it's a staff only issue is simply false. And yes, that is your stance.

I have NEVER given the staff full credit for ANYONE'S development because it's NEVER one sided. For you to dismiss them as having zero impact on any positive development and all the impact on those who don't work out is just wrong.

I'm guilty of having my point lost as well. I feel through "blind loyalty" the staff doesn't get criticized for things they should be held accountable for and end up taking the extreme position. Like I have said, I want Mullin to succeed. Although I may rarely say it, it would be ignorant of me to think that Mullin and staff has zero positive impact on the team. That is not the message I'm trying to send.