Game 13: Seton Hall

then certainly SJ's poor execution failed to stop that fiendishly well designed play. Except that's not what happened. What happened was that the fifth option made a play, the first four options having been thwarted.

This isn’t about Willard’s play design. We broke down on defense, that is why we lost, no other reason.

This isn’t about Willard’s play design. We broke down on defense, that is why we lost, no other reason.

Really? No other reason?

Really? No other reason?

Missed free throws

Mistake/Inadvertent. 

Maybe inadvertent is a term of art when it comes to ruining the game of basketball refereeing, but in common parlance inadvertent means unintentional or involuntary. Like he sneezed or something. As opposed to incompetence or negligence.

I can't see any scenario in which the ball should have gone back to a baseline inbound play for Seton Hall. You can't just wipe away the action that occurred between 3.9 and 3.1 and you can't just have a do over.

If the clock did not start how did any action occur between 3.9 and 3.1? Careful, that might be a trick question.

My live take like everyone else was that he assumed the ball was going out of bounds and was surprised by LJ's great athletic play and blew it dead too early.  I was thinking perhaps he's also a soccer referee and used to the ball being out as soon as it crosses the plain of the sideline, had a brain aneurism and called it that way. I think I once made this same mistake late in a tight championship game. I was lucky my gaffe had no affect on the outcome.

After watching this different angle of it many times, I'm pretty sure my take is accurate.

Which take? That the ref blew "his whistle to correct a timing issue" or that he blew it by mistake?

 

P.S. I'm not Dopey.

Right, and I'm not Grumpy.

Missed free throws

Glad you could clear that up, Marco.

I’m upset at the call like everyone else, but we still had the lead. All we had to do was defend for 3 seconds, and we could have, should have still won.

The main question i have is...why was Simon confused on the last play? Switching on everything is standard practice in that situation. Did he forget? Did the staff not remind them how they should be playing that last possession? Whatever the case was we lost it on that play and gave up a wide open and 3. Credit SH for taking advantage of the opportunity. It doesn’t feel good to lose that way but we still could have won it after ther bad call. If there wasn’t a breakdown on defense I would be upset with the call, but since there was it’s hard for me to see this lose as anything else but on us.

This isn’t about Willard’s play design. We broke down on defense, that is why we lost, no other reason.

No other reason? And certainly not the blown call that created the play that required them to play defense. Here's what you're arguing. You're saying that if you go outside and when crossing the street are run over by a bus and killed that the bus didn't crush you because you could have left the house earlier or later or not at all. That's too existential for basketball and besides that bad law: "If the rule you followed led you to this then what good is the rule?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6GSUuZqybQ

Really? No other reason?

We had the lead with 3 seconds to go. Missed free throws, bad calls or anything else up to that point doesn’t change that fact. A break down on defense gave them a wide open shot for the win. At that point, we lost it.

No other reason? And certainly not the blown call that created the play that required them to play defense. Here's what you're arguing. You're saying that if you go outside and when crossing the street are run over by a bus and killed that the bus didn't crush you because you could have left the house earlier or later or not at all. That's too existential for basketball and besides that bad law: "If the rule you followed led you to this then what good is the rule?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6GSUuZqybQ

I’m speaking about accountability. The analogy you presented is a bit off as there is a third party involved. If an argument with your girlfriend/wife is what caused you to leave the house is it her fault you got hit by the bus? Or maybe if I followed the traffic laws I wouldn’t have gotten hit by the bus? Far be it to take ownership in the role we play in things when it’s much easier and cowardly to point fingers elsewhere imo.

Rarely does a guy take a wide open shot and get fouled. A wAlkon hit a game winning contested shot after, at best, their second option was forced to make a play in which he also got away with a travel. Hard for me to call out the team for a defensive collapse when we all saw the plays they did make the last 5 seconds.

And for what it’s worth I feel bad for the kid who hit the game winner. We got absolutely robbed of a win but his shot is being forgotten about and to an extent so is their win. Can’t hold it against them for the refs doing what refs do.

Hard for me to call out the team for a defensive collapse when we all saw the plays they did make the last 5 seconds.

But that is what happened, pointing it out is not “calling the team out”, it’s a teachable moment that hopefully the team learns and grows from.

Glad you could clear that up, Marco.

I'm here to.help

I didn't think Ponds could play that poorly unless not well. Any talk?

Maybe inadvertent is a term of art when it comes to ruining the game of basketball refereeing, but in common parlance inadvertent means unintentional or involuntary. Like he sneezed or something. As opposed to incompetence or negligence.

Here's the definition in an Ncaa rule book:

Section 16: An inadvertent whistle occurs any time an official blows the whistle by mistake and does not have a call to make. 

That's what happened here.

If the clock did not start how did any action occur between 3.9 and 3.1? Careful, that might be a trick question.

The clock did start.  It started late.  It went from 3.9 to 3.5. I used 3.1 because that's what they settled on after video review. Figueroa and referees clearly did stuff in this timeframe, right? I'm too slick to be fooled by tricks.

Which take? That the ref blew "his whistle to correct a timing issue" or that he blew it by mistake?

They're the same take.

Right, and I'm not Grumpy.

Obviously you're Doc and I'm Sleepy.

But that is what happened, pointing it out is not “calling the team out”, it’s a teachable moment that hopefully the team learns and grows from.

There are worse shots we could have gave up is all I’m saying. He made it so good for him.

Bull. Gil Scott had the ball in the clear and was off to the races with only 3 seconds remaining on the clock. No speculation.

Exactly. No speculation. Game over

Here's the definition in an Ncaa rule book:

Section 16: An inadvertent whistle occurs any time an official blows the whistle by mistake and does not have a call to make. 

That's what happened here.

Okay. So when you said "I believe the referee did blow his whistle to correct a timing issue" you were talking out your ass. Thanks for the clarification.

I’m speaking about accountability. The analogy you presented is a bit off as there is a third party involved. If an argument with your girlfriend/wife is what caused you to leave the house is it her fault you got hit by the bus? Or maybe if I followed the traffic laws I wouldn’t have gotten hit by the bus? Far be it to take ownership in the role we play in things when it’s much easier and cowardly to point fingers elsewhere imo.

You're arguing against yourself. On the one hand you're saying that the call didn't matter because of what preceded it. On the other you're arguing that the bus matters and what preceded it doesn't.

Nobody's saying that if events had transpired differently then the call would have mattered. Obviously it wouldn't have mattered if SJ was up 11 with three seconds left. And everyone acknowledges that the game should not have come down to one play and that SJ made various mistakes that allowed SH back into the game. Fine. But the game did come down to one play and the call on that one play decided the outcome of the game. Referees should not decide the outcome of games, the players should. And in this case the players would have, but for the incompetence of the referees. You might think it's cowardly to acknowledge that, I think it's stupid not to.

I saw a different replay of the fateful play and it changed my take on the refereeing error completely.

I believe the referee did blow his whistle to correct a timing issue and not because he was mistakenly ruling LJ out of bounds. He went up with his hand to stop the clock but never pointed direction as you would for an out of bounds violation.

The clock did start (a little fractions) late.  It should have started as soon as LJ touched the inbound pass but didn't start until his second touch (or close to it) by the sideline.  The ref administering the throw in chopped the play in late so I would say it was his fault and not the clock operators.

So here's the whole brutal error:
a) After a timing mistake, such a mistake shall be corrected:
   1) During the first dead ball and before the ball is touched inbounds or out of bounds by a player other than a thrower-in.

The timing error should have been corrected during a dead ball but the ref. stopped play  to correct it during a live ball. Plus, we're only talking tenths of a second so stopping it there is just awful.

Even though they didn't explain it this way to the announcers, they most likely did rule it an inadvertent whistle and went to the point of interupption restart to the side that had "team control", which was Seton Hall.

Carmine

Appreciate your insight as an experience referee. But, the video I see shows the clock at 3.5 when LJ saved the ball. So, it had in fact started. May have started late by an almost imperceptible and certainly irrelevant fraction of a second. Does look like the baseline ref was a tad slow with his hand signal, but again irrelevant. Still don’t buy that the ref made call based on clock. As you say just a screw up that they tried to recover from.

But the game did come down to one play and the call on that one play decided the outcome of the game.

I see a distinction between winning plays and losing plays. That “one play” you speak of could have won the game for us yes but it also didn’t lose the game for us, we still had the lead. That happen on the subsequent play where the defense broke down and allowed the score.

That is my point, not that the game should have been over if not for the blown call, this is true, but the game wasn’t over and we still could have won quite easily if not for the break down on defense. As you have mentioned, Willard drew up a elementary play at the end. They had no where to go with the ball, if not for the break down on defense we still win. That was the deciding play, not the blown call before it, not the missed free throws. I get it, it shouldn’t have come to that, but it did and yet we still could have, should have won.