Game 17: DePaul 6P (CBSS, 570 AM)

Maybe "a killer" was an overstatement, but when the team is struggling you don't need your own coach making it harder. The way we play defense, not the refs, accounts for the fouls. Again, CM should concentrate on the other things mentioned to make this team better.

Coach should chill out with the refs.  They are only human. 

If you have one coach that's been complaining about every single call and non-call the entire game and one coach that hasn't said a word - guess who's getting the benefit of the doubt late on borderline calls?

The theory that you argue with the refs to get the "next" call is a fallacy.

Coach should chill out with the refs.  They are only human. 

If you have one coach that's been complaining about every single call and non-call the entire game and one coach that hasn't said a word - guess who's getting the benefit of the doubt late on borderline calls?

The theory that you argue with the refs to get the "next" call is a fallacy.

Don’t buy that for a second. If you think refs at the D1 level aren’t influenced by the coaches getting on them then we will disagree. And maybe you aren’t swayed in games you ref and if that’s the case you deserve every dime and thank god for you, but I can tell you 100% from coaching high school, the annoying, bickering coach gets the calls.

Very sad to me the ref jobs which cost SJU games. Both the Seton Hall and Villanova games had biased refs. How could three officials get a goaltending call wrong? Years back, particularly in Madison Square Garden, the SJU best player gets a second foul early in the first half and sits. The worst ref job was Austin MacArthur calling George Johnson for walks against Indiana. What makes no sense is why St. John's? My only guess is that SJU fans bet heavy on St. John's. The answer here might be to never bet on St. John's. If you have to bet let me suggest playing the Knicks to lose and the Nets to win. As to Coach Mullin, I would suggest sending annotated tapes of the games to the league office.

For the record I don’t think it’s something premeditated by the refs to call an uneven game against us. Just think we have been on the bad end of the whistles more often than not this BE season especially.

Don’t buy that for a second. If you think refs at the D1 level aren’t influenced by the coaches getting on them then we will disagree. And maybe you aren’t swayed in games you ref and if that’s the case you deserve every dime and thank god for you, but I can tell you 100% from coaching high school, the annoying, bickering coach gets the calls.

Yeah they're influenced alright - to go the other way.  The opponent of the annoying, bickering coach gets the calls.

Yeah they're influenced alright - to go the other way.  The opponent of the annoying, bickering coach gets the calls.

Couldn’t disagree more

Couldn’t disagree more

Yup
Coach K scolds refs like they are his children and has gotten every call ever made.

How does denying the ball to DePaul's bigs and boxing out translate into getting foul calls? I don't think Mullin is complaining that their not getting their fare share of over the backs.

In football the refs could call holding and pass interference on every play, they just don't. Same thing in basketball. Everybody hand checks, everybody holds, people get bodied driving in the lane, there's contact on every play. Some teams get those calls and some teams don't, the latter comprising teams whose coach "has turned the refs against us."

So you're talking out of all three sides of your mouth. There is bias, there isn't bias, and to the extent that there is bias it doesn't matter. If there were a fourth option I'm sure you'd propound that as well, as it suited you.

When you don’t play real defense, you tend to compensate for it by fouling. For many bigs in our league, once they have the ball in the paint, it’s too late for us to do anything but foul. So we do. I didn’t think the calls were unfair against us. I think we played poorly, got called for many of the stupid fouls that we’ve been called for in the past, and Mullin, instead of recognizing that his entire defensive strategy play right into DePaul’s hands decided to blame the refs.

Time to look in the mirror. Sometimes, maybe, but I t’s not always the refs fault. Are we the only team that the refs want to see lose? Come on.

When you don’t play real defense, you tend to compensate for it by fouling. For many bigs in our league, once they have the ball in the paint, it’s too late for us to do anything but foul. So we do. I didn’t think the calls were unfair against us. I think we played poorly, got called for many of the stupid fouls that we’ve been called for in the past, and Mullin, instead of recognizing that his entire defensive strategy play right into DePaul’s hands decided to blame the refs.

Time to look in the mirror. Sometimes, maybe, but I t’s not always the refs fault. Are we the only team that the refs want to see lose? Come on.

I'm not complaining about the fouls being called on SJ defense, I'm complaining about the fouls not being called on the other guys. Against Depaul SJ took 65 shots and took 6 FTs, against Villanova 61 shots and shot 8 FTs - seven by Ponds and meanwhile Heron, LJF and Clark played 100 minutes and took 28 shots and never did one Villanova player body them or grab them or hand check them. That seems unlikely to me.

And this isn't new. In the BET a couple of years ago Villanova didn't commit a foul in an entire half. A couple of years ago versus Marquette SJ was called for 43 fouls, leading the usually go-along get-along Gus Johnson to describe the officiating as “terrible” and to wonder how Saint John’s was going to be able to play defense if they could not use their hands. You're an old man like me so farther back: 1988 NCAA's SJU lost by three to Florida, who shot 17 free throws to SJ’s 8; in 1990 they lost to dook (the Singleton technical game) by four, 32 free throws dook, 15 Saint John’s; 1991 again to dook, 28 FTs to SJ’s 6. Was that because Lou's teams didn't box out and defend the post?

I'm not "blaming the refs" for the losses - I think Mullin is as stubborn as his mentor and it hurts him - but they're not helping.

I sat 3 rows behind the bench. Coach was on the refs almost every time down the court and during every timeout. They were not being combative with him in the least. They were very professional. Did the yelling and constant questioning of calls wear on them? I guarantee it did.  The calls late in the second half that were "grey" started going against us, and that's to be expected when you have been riding these guys mercilessly for 30 minutes of play. 

Now, in his defense, coach (along with St Jean) was constantly telling the kids how and where to move on defense.  It was a tough matchup with Keita being so weak and no other big man besides Clark. But his constant harping at the refs cost us those close calls late in the second half. Cragg was 3 seats over from me and wore a blank stare during the second half.

Mitch is there solely to give individual advice to specific players, it seems.  Mullin and St Jean would sometimes point things out to him during in-game situations.  And then in a timeout, Mitch would take the kid aside and point out those things out to him, and give the kids advice.  That's his role.  Not saying that's a bad thing - good to have a coach who fills that role.

Matt A did nothing except chat with Virgilio. He's the Vinny Cerrato of St John's basketball.

I'm not complaining about the fouls being called on SJ defense, I'm complaining about the fouls not being called on the other guys. Against Depaul SJ took 65 shots and took 6 FTs, against Villanova 61 shots and shot 8 FTs - seven by Ponds and meanwhile Heron, LJF and Clark played 100 minutes and took 28 shots and never did one Villanova player body them or grab them or hand check them. That seems unlikely to me.

And this isn't new. In the BET a couple of years ago Villanova didn't commit a foul in an entire half. A couple of years ago versus Marquette SJ was called for 43 fouls, leading the usually go-along get-along Gus Johnson to describe the officiating as “terrible” and to wonder how Saint John’s was going to be able to play defense if they could not use their hands. You're an old man like me so farther back: 1988 NCAA's SJU lost by three to Florida, who shot 17 free throws to SJ’s 8; in 1990 they lost to dook (the Singleton technical game) by four, 32 free throws dook, 15 Saint John’s; 1991 again to dook, 28 FTs to SJ’s 6. Was that because Lou's teams didn't box out and defend the post?

I'm not "blaming the refs" for the losses - I think Mullin is as stubborn as his mentor and it hurts him - but they're not helping.

We are a jump shooting team. You can’t expect us to get a equal amount of foul calls as another team who drives the ball to the basket looking to score inviting contact. We look to pass. Sure refs can be bias, however that should not dismiss the lack of development or complete disregard of fundamental defensive techniques that could reduce the amount of fouls we make.

It’s a glaring problem that many refuse to admit. I’m not sure what everyone’s expectations of the program is, but I think we can be a top 25 program. We can get the players, we just need the coaching to tighten up some of these apparent flaws.

We are a jump shooting team. You can’t expect us to get a equal amount of foul calls as another team who drives the ball to the basket looking to score inviting contact.

I posted evidence in another thread - eyewitness, documentary and other wise - that showed you were wrong. You didn't refute any of that and now repeat you refuted assertion as if it is fact.

The fact is that I do expect SJ to get relatively the same amount of calls as teams that take relatively the same amount of twos and threes that SJ takes - which they have over the last two games - and if they don't I look for another explanation, and I accept Poison's explanation for it, that Mullin's "behavior can turn the refs against us." Which asserts bias. Argue with him.

I posted evidence in another thread - eyewitness, documentary and other wise - that showed you were wrong. You didn't refute any of that and now repeat you refuted assertion as if it is fact.

The fact is that I do expect SJ to get relatively the same amount of calls as teams that take relatively the same amount of twos and threes that SJ takes - which they have over the last two games - and if they don't I look for another explanation, and I accept Poison's explanation for it, that Mullin's "behavior can turn the refs against us." Which asserts bias. Argue with him.

I didn’t respond because I try to ignore propaganda. You must be a consultant for Trump. Just because you say “eyewitness” doesn’t validate your grossly incorrect position. I am an eyewitness of what I see and can guarantee you my position would be supported by coaches across America. A shot chart means nothing and whatever benefits refs extend to Nova and Puke doesn’t include the mighty  DePaul. Just watch the game. We shoot jump shots at a higher rate than other teams plus we don’t know how to move our feet and teams take advantage of that and that is the reason behind the disparity. It’s not that difficult to understand..what has a higher percentage of drawing a foul?  Wide open 3? Or driving the ball to the hoop for a layup challenging the defense? We are a jump shooting team and that usually to equate to trips to the foul line.

I didn’t respond because I try to ignore propaganda. You must be a consultant for Trump. Just because you say “eyewitness” doesn’t validate your grossly incorrect position.

Eyewitness referred to any number of posters how watched the game and directly contradicted your observations, as opposed to no one who agreed with you.

I am an eyewitness of what I see

Everyone is an eyewitness of what they see Tesla. Even the blind.

and can guarantee you my position would be supported by coaches across America.

And I can guarantee that your position would be laughed at by Jesus and Jehovah and John Wooden's ghost. Therefore my appeal to authority trumps yours.

A shot chart means nothing

Yes, facts and evidence means nothing when compared to your subjective surmises, do go on, I'm fascinated.

and whatever benefits refs extend to Nova and Puke

Wait what? There are benefits that the refs extend to certain teams and not others? So all the stuff you said in the Villanova thread denying that the FT disparity had anything to do with the referees and everything to do with "our style" and "We didn’t try" and "they didn’t take it to the basket" and "It speaks to a style" and "It’s a style of play" - that was all bullshit? Okay then, now that you've completely contradicted yourself my work here is done.

There's nothing more satisfying than a witness who thinks he's smarter than he is and is willing to talk and talk until he proves he's not. "Ah, but the strawberries, that's, that's where I had them, they laughed at me and made jokes, but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt, with geometric logic, that a duplicate key to the ward room icebox did exist, and I've had produced that key if they hadn't pulled the Caine out of action. I, I know now they were only trying to protect some fellow officer. Naturally, I can only cover these things from memory. If I left anything out, why, just ask me specific questions and I'll be glad to answer them, one by one."

<flush>
 

Eyewitness referred to any number of posters how watched the game and directly contradicted your observations, as opposed to no one who agreed with you.

Everyone is an eyewitness of what they see Tesla. Even the blind.

And I can guarantee that your position would be laughed at by Jesus and Jehovah and John Wooden's ghost. Therefore my appeal to authority trumps yours.

Yes, facts and evidence means nothing when compared to your subjective surmises, do go on, I'm fascinated.

Wait what? There are benefits that the refs extend to certain teams and not others? So all the stuff you said in the Villanova thread denying that the FT disparity had anything to do with the referees and everything to do with "our style" and "We didn’t try" and "they didn’t take it to the basket" and "It speaks to a style" and "It’s a style of play" - that was all bullshit? Okay then, now that you've completely contradicted yourself my work here is done.

There's nothing more satisfying than a witness who thinks he's smarter than he is and is willing to talk and talk until he proves he's not. "Ah, but the strawberries, that's, that's where I had them, they laughed at me and made jokes, but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt, with geometric logic, that a duplicate key to the ward room icebox did exist, and I've had produced that key if they hadn't pulled the Caine out of action. I, I know now they were only trying to protect some fellow officer. Naturally, I can only cover these things from memory. If I left anything out, why, just ask me specific questions and I'll be glad to answer them, one by one."

<flush>
 

No one has refuted my claim that we are a jump shooting team. No one has refuted my claim that we do not consistently look to drive the ball to the basket for our shot. When we do drive we often look to pass it back out to the perimeter for a shot.

Shot charts don’t reveal how the shot was taken. Its useless for this argument. It’s like Trump using the amount of illegal drugs coming through the ports of entry to justify a wall.

I stand by what I said, we don’t go to the line as much as we could because of our style of play. Whoever feels that we are not a jump shooting team and/ or even so that doesn’t contribute to FT disparity please speak up. Bottom line is we aren’t playing well and that falls on the staff. Not the refs, Jesus, or the ghost of John Wooden.

Don’t buy that for a second. If you think refs at the D1 level aren’t influenced by the coaches getting on them then we will disagree. And maybe you aren’t swayed in games you ref and if that’s the case you deserve every dime and thank god for you, but I can tell you 100% from coaching high school, the annoying, bickering coach gets the calls.

I love Coach Mullin and all but he's about as much of an "annoying, bickering coach" as one could be.

Does he "gets the calls"?

No one has refuted my claim that we are a jump shooting team. No one has refuted my claim that we do not consistently look to drive the ball to the basket for our shot. When we do drive we often look to pass it back out to the perimeter for a shot.

Shot charts don’t reveal how the shot was taken. Its useless for this argument. It’s like Trump using the amount of illegal drugs coming through the ports of entry to justify a wall.

I stand by what I said, we don’t go to the line as much as we could because of our style of play. Whoever feels that we are not a jump shooting team and/ or even so that doesn’t contribute to FT disparity please speak up. Bottom line is we aren’t playing well and that falls on the staff. Not the refs, Jesus, or the ghost of John Wooden.

Maybe we could try looking at this another way. Seemingly everyone disagrees with you, you might even disagree with you, sort of hard to tell.

Here is the STJMBB 2018-19 game log::
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/st-johns-ny/2019-gamelogs.html

This year the team has averaged 19.4 FT’s a game, it was over 21 before the last 2.
There have been 4 games including Nova with over 30 3pt attempts with FTA of 16, 16, 13 and 8, that’s a noticeable difference.

As for the Depaul game, only took 19 3Pt shots and had 6(!) FT’s. There were 3 other games this year with less than 20 3PA and in those games the FTAs were 35, 21 and 22. Not insignificant.

You’re not wrong that a team that shoots more 3’s will generally have less foul shots. This much is obvious. You are wrong on how big of a difference it will make. The discrepancy is not from shooting tendency alone, and as the shot chart demonstrates there were plenty of shots taken in the typical foul shot producing range. Besides, how many times do you remember anybody on St Johns attempting a sky hook?

You’re not wrong that a team that shoots more 3’s will generally have less foul shots. This much is obvious. You are wrong on how big of a difference it will make. The discrepancy is not from shooting tendency alone, and as the shot chart demonstrates there were plenty of shots taken in the typical foul shot producing range

I see where the confusion lies. I said we are a jump shooting team. There is no distinction between shooting 2’s or 3’s. “Plenty of shots taken in the foul shot producing range” doesn’t tell you if that shot was a fade away off the low block or a drive from top of the key straight to the cup into the defenders chest. We shoot a higher rate of jump shots than our competitors. That doesn’t mean just 3 pointers.

Besides, how many times do you remember anybody on St Johns attempting a sky hook?

Go back to the Nova game after the under 8 TV time out in the 2nd half. LJ shot a running semi-skyhook 4 feet from the basket. Simon shot a spinning hook shot from below the free throw line. Now I’m calling them a hook shot because that’s the closes type of shot they looked like. I didn’t even mention the 8 foot push shot air ball Simon shot as well.

The fact is with the exception of one time, each time we took it to the cup into the defenders chest we got the foul call. Nova did it more. Yes Nova shot a lot of threes. But when they weren’t they were taking it to our chest to the basket.

There are other reasons that contribute to the FT disparity, we had 4-5 fouls called against us 40ft from the basket often for our reaching. This is the last I’ll say to this we can agree to disagree. We need a win tomorrow.
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I love Coach Mullin and all but he's about as much of an "annoying, bickering coach" as one could be.

Does he "gets the calls"?

That was more in reference to hs and in general. I honestly think CMs problem is a respect thing. They see a guy who never coached before giving them shit.  Regardless, should it matter to a ref? No nothing should, besides the call in front of them, in my experiences they are swayed far to easily. I don’t like coaches complaining, but I can sure see why they do it.