Rebranding to Consider Red Men/Indian if We Rise Again

In today’s environment I thought having a gendersepcific team name wouldn’t work, like Redmen. I saw parts of the UMASS women’s game and they are called the minute women, and it did not sound terrible.

Redwomen could would as well (were they called something else before).

The school would have to clamp down hard on anything resembling an Indian.

To do a retro night would be interesting to see if there is genuine interest in Bringing the name back, or is it really just a bunch of old timers just talking about their glory days.

It would be great to end the Redmen curse.

In today’s environment I thought having a gendersepcific team name wouldn’t work, like Redmen. I saw parts of the UMASS women’s game and they are called the minute women, and it did not sound terrible.

Redwomen could would as well (were they called something else before).

The school would have to clamp down hard on anything resembling an Indian.

To do a retro night would be interesting to see if there is genuine interest in Bringing the name back, or is it really just a bunch of old timers just talking about their glory days.

It would be great to end the Redmen curse.

If they did a retro night and brought back the Indian they deserve what that would do to the program’s reputation.

They would have to be completely clueless to do something like that.

Notice you haven’t seen Kentucky having a whites only retro game either.

Which they stole from someone else.

Myth. There's one documented case of weaponized small pox, by a Brit, long before there was a United States.

List of things CA finds equally offensive: germ warfare, genocide and John Wayne movies. Good list man.



Completely false and ridiculous. Did you learn American history by watching F Troop?

We being evidently the Swiss, who stripped the medals and have since restored them.

The reason sports team have various forms of Indians as mascots is because Indians were commonly thought of as brave and fierce. If you think calling someone an Indian is derogatory, that's your problem. Still, I bet Native Americans are happy to have you to explain for them why they should be offended by this and that, hashtag white privilege. That said, Redmen would be a public relations disaster. Which is why I like Red Tide.

There is nothing brave or fierce about the way St.John’s depicted their Indian. Theirs was much closer to what the Cleveland Indians did.

It’s all in how you do it.

Wow you’re stupid! “cournal”?! Are you trying to write colonel? Holy sh*t.

And redskins refer to the tone of a Native American’s skin. They self-identified as red before Columbus.

Asians are described as yellow, Europeans as white, sub-Saharan Africans as black, and several groups near the equator as brown. The purported scalped head meaning is an after-the-fact hit job by liberals.

And St. John’s became known as the Redmen because they had red uniforms. The Indian mascot was added later.

I’m just not as good a writer as you are Marillac. I’ll have to live with that.

But not in Florida.

Myth. There's one documented case of weaponized small pox, by a Brit, long before there was a United States.

There are numerous articles of history which state this had occurred. To dismiss it as it never occurred is ignorant

Which they stole from someone else.

Really? Who was that? Buffalo doesn’t count.

Completely false and ridiculous.

So you don’t believe there was a genocide of the Native Americans? What would you call what happened to them over the centuries through colonization and the American government? Do you believe the Jewish holocaust occurred?

If they did a retro night and brought back the Indian they deserve what that would do to the program’s reputation.

They would have to be completely clueless to do something like that.

Notice you haven’t seen Kentucky having a whites only retro game either.

Not saying the team bring back the Indian. I’m saying not allowing fans enter the arena with any Indian costumes.

It would be tricky. Wearing red paint means something different going to a Redstorm game compared to a Redmen game.

The colonists were not saints, but neither were the indians. There was violence on both sides, but there were also peaceful alliances as history will tell us. Let us also not forget there was also Indian on Indian violence to conquer land/tribes. Who would you put as the native in those scenarios as they fought each other over "original" land? History is filled with exploration and conquering in just about every civilization between many types of people. 

The concept of the "Indian" so to speak as a mascot for us was a symbol of school spirit and energy at games, not "oh my - let us make fun of ourselves, our own mascot, team name and every nearby tribe". And no I am not an old timer but I do have an appreciation for the history and tradition of the school and the program. This talk of offense reflects a very soft and PC era sadly that seeks to twist everything.

Fine- don't overemphasize the "Indian" or "Redmen" with fear of bad press, but at least a retro night with some Redmen gear or Johnny T and "Indian" coming back for a half time hoops contest would be cool.

Not saying the team bring back the Indian. I’m saying not allowing fans enter the arena with any Indian costumes.

It would be tricky. Wearing red paint means something different going to a Redstorm game compared to a Redmen game.

If fans want to bring more red into the building, no one is stopping them.

I think this is a particularly ill timed thread. The fans have been terrific this season.

If we build a winner people will come to games, they will buy hats and t-shirts because they will be proud to wear them. That’s sports. No one wants to wear the mark of a loser.

The colonists were not saints, but neither were the indians. There was violence on both sides, but there were also peaceful alliances as history will tell us. Let us also not forget there was also Indian on Indian violence to conquer land/tribes. Who would you put as the native in those scenarios as they fought each other over "original" land? History is filled with exploration and conquering in just about every civilization between many types of people. 

The concept of the "Indian" so to speak as a mascot for us was a symbol of school spirit and energy at games, not "oh my - let us make fun of ourselves, our own mascot, team name and every nearby tribe". And no I am not an old timer but I do have an appreciation for the history and tradition of the school and the program. This talk of offense reflects a very soft and PC era sadly that seeks to twist everything.

Fine- don't overemphasize the "Indian" or "Redmen" with fear of bad press, but at least a retro night with some Redmen gear or Johnny T and "Indian" coming back for a half time hoops contest would be cool.

You’re not getting it. This will never happen. You are living in the wrong part of the country if you think a University in NY would be dumb enough to bring the Indian back for anything ever again - except to make a point about how thoughtless they once were.

Go to a Florida State game. They truly don’t know the difference either.

This team has been in the shitter for years now...  Johnnies is totally appropriate..

the outhouse got me thinking.  How about rednecks.  The mascot would be great and it is OK to make fun of white folk.

There are numerous articles of history which state this had occurred. To dismiss it as it never occurred is ignorant

According to Paul Kelton, a historian who's written several books on the role of epidemics in the European takeover of the Americas, there is "one documented case" of weaponized small pox on the frontier. It involved two blankets and occurred in 1763, before there was a United States. I'll take his word over whatever "articles of history" you're pretending to have read.

https://www.history.com/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blankets

So you don’t believe there was a genocide of the Native Americans?

No.

What would you call what happened to them over the centuries through colonization and the American government?

I'd call it bad luck.

The US came into being in 1776. Before then the New World was controlled by various Euro-powers, chiefly England, Spain, and France. The decimation of the indigenous population (pre-contact estimates are between 5 and 15 million) that occurred between 1500 and 1800 is chiefly (ugg) laid at Europe's feet. In defense of the Euros, most of the deaths were the result of disease -- small pox and measles and the like, to which the native population was not immune -- rather than the usual barbarous methods by which they dealt with troubling minority populations, ie, mass disembowelment, decapitation, and starvation. By 1800 the estimated Native population was one million. The 1900 US census counted 250,000.

The Indians Wars -- which, evidently, you've seen portrayed in whatever comic books it is that you read -- ran from about 1870-1900. They were fought by about 100,000 US troops, who suffered 10,000 fatalities. If they inflicted even five times as many fatalities as they suffered that would be about 50,000; alas, there don't seem to be any figures available, since most indians were notoriously poor bookkeepers. You're free to think that 50 K troops patrolling several million square miles murdered 750 thousand people but the fact is that the majority of those deaths were the result of poverty, disease and attrition.

Do you believe the Jewish holocaust occurred?

Nice attempted ad hominem stupid.

I took one of those 23 and me DNA tests recently. Turns out I'm 10 percent Ashkenazi. (Which accounts for my super genius IQ.) So anyhoo, you just accused a one of the chosen people of denying the holocaust. Pretty repulsive stuff. Antisemitic even.

If fans want to bring more red into the building, no one is stopping them.

I think this is a particularly ill timed thread. The fans have been terrific this season.

If we build a winner people will come to games, they will buy hats and t-shirts because they will be proud to wear them. That’s sports. No one wants to wear the mark of a loser.

-You’re right winning cures all ills, even team names that people don’t like.

-What I was saying is that having fans wear red paint on their faces for a team called Red Storm is completely different from fans wearing a red face going to a Redmen game. The sensitivity levels would be off the charts.

-The fans have been great, and motivated all year. To do a retro night of Redmen propbaly would be over complicated and a headache for the school. Especially in NYC and in this type of politically charged environment.

-It’s unfortunate that the bulk of St. John’s successful history is with a name that cannot be celebrated, even in a retro type of night.

-It is also interesting that this type of topic comes up every few years, even after the team has been Red storm for over 20 years. Maybe if the team wasn’t mostly terrible during this time, it would not be as big of a deal as it is.

Do other programs that changed their names for similar reasons have these discussions on a constant basis as SJU fans do?

Thanks to all those that willingly jumped into the fray of my Indian tiff with the good Doc.

He's a big meanie.

I like the 59ers as a team name.

You’re not getting it. This will never happen. You are living in the wrong part of the country if you think a University in NY would be dumb enough to bring the Indian back for anything ever again - except to make a point about how thoughtless they once were.

Go to a Florida State game. They truly don’t know the difference either.

First of all, stop using “Indian.” You are a terrible liberal. Are you an octogenarian?

Secondly, you are competitively stupid. You should turn pro. Florida State works very closely with the Seminole tribe. Not only has the tribe offered its “unequivocal support” to the university continuing to use the Seminole name, it is a source of deep of pride to members of the “unconquered” tribe.

But please step in an save these savages, honkie. Be outraged on their behalf...do some whitesplainin’.

I’m just not as good a writer as you are Marillac. I’ll have to live with that.

But not in Florida.

Born - NY
Elementary School - NY
Middle School - NY
High School - NY
College - NY
Grad School - NY
Bar Exam Passed - NY
Apartment - NY

Nickname from Poison - Florida

a retro night with some Redmen gear or Johnny T and "Indian" coming back for a half time hoops contest would be cool

You misspelt disastrous public relations nightmare. I agree that mascots like the Cleveland Indian and the Washington Redskin and the Florida Seminole are not meant pejoratively. But a college hoop mascot is not the hill to die on to fight PC culture. Consider:

Iona’s sports team are called the Gaels, Gael being a reference to fierce medieval blue faced Scottish warriors of the sort portrayed by Mel Gibson in Braveheart, which in this case have morphed into belligerent Hibernians spoiling for a drunken St Patrick’s Day fight.

The great Gaels of Ireland
the men that God made mad
all their wars are merry
all their songs are sad

which is almost a Dennis Leary song but not quite (it’s GK Chesterton), if for no other reason that it’s not stolen from Bill Hicks. In these politically correct times it’s a perverse sort of white privilege that allows for dismissive references to primitive Caucasian savages – Fighting Irish, Gaels, Vikings, Hilltoppers, Cornhuskers – to pass upon unremarked, whereas references to primitive non white savages requires cultural flagellation. Me, I agree with Dr King: hopefully they’ll come a day when all men are judged by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin, when put upon micks and sheep shaggers and frogs and wogs and lint heads are accorded the same respect as are Warriors, Braves, Indians, and Blackhawks. Until then let us hope that white lives matter, at least as much as all the other ones.

https://youtu.be/wbeLu_3Wf_k

According to Paul Kelton, a historian who's written several books on the role of epidemics in the European takeover of the Americas, there is "one documented case" of weaponized small pox on the frontier. It involved two blankets and occurred in 1763, before there was a United States. I'll take his word over whatever "articles of history" you're pretending to have read.

https://www.history.com/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blankets

No.

I'd call it bad luck.

The US came into being in 1776. Before then the New World was controlled by various Euro-powers, chiefly England, Spain, and France. The decimation of the indigenous population (pre-contact estimates are between 5 and 15 million) that occurred between 1500 and 1800 is chiefly (ugg) laid at Europe's feet. In defense of the Euros, most of the deaths were the result of disease -- small pox and measles and the like, to which the native population was not immune -- rather than the usual barbarous methods by which they dealt with troubling minority populations, ie, mass disembowelment, decapitation, and starvation. By 1800 the estimated Native population was one million. The 1900 US census counted 250,000.

The Indians Wars -- which, evidently, you've seen portrayed in whatever comic books it is that you read -- ran from about 1870-1900. They were fought by about 100,000 US troops, who suffered 10,000 fatalities. If they inflicted even five times as many fatalities as they suffered that would be about 50,000; alas, there don't seem to be any figures available, since most indians were notoriously poor bookkeepers. You're free to think that 50 K troops patrolling several million square miles murdered 750 thousand people but the fact is that the majority of those deaths were the result of poverty, disease and attrition.

Nice attempted ad hominem stupid.

I took one of those 23 and me DNA tests recently. Turns out I'm 10 percent Ashkenazi. (Which accounts for my super genius IQ.) So anyhoo, you just accused a one of the chosen people of denying the holocaust. Pretty repulsive stuff. Antisemitic even.

So just the question if you believe the Jewish holocaust existed is repulsive and I’m anti Semitic. Yet the massacre of of an entire race of people was mostly due to poverty and that there wasn’t many Indians anyway. Well the fact that more Jews died from famine and disease than actual gassing shouldn’t somehow diminish what occurred.

History is often written by the winners and it’s often skewed towards the victor making it truly His-story. American history has tried to hide the greatest mass Genocide in history due to their role and I’m speaking of Genocide of the Natives and Africans, which begun during the trans Atlantic Slave trade.

There is this false narrative of population size. Africa, Europe, Asia had tens of millions of people but that didn’t exist in the America’s? There were millions of Native’s men, women, and children slaughtered by the hands of Americans whether through brutal force or political policy and relocation efforts. Why would they admit to it? Oh I forgot...they did.

“Damn any man who sympathizes with Indians! ... I have come to kill Indians, and believe it is right and honorable to use any means under God's heaven to kill Indians. ... Kill and scalp all, big and little; nits make lice.”

— Col. John Milton Chivington, U.S. Army


He made it pretty clear what the army’s mission was. If you don’t believe this Genocide existed you are either consciously stupid, a racist, or a Nimrod.

In today’s environment I thought having a gendersepcific team name wouldn’t work, like Redmen. I saw parts of the UMASS women’s game and they are called the minute women, and it did not sound terrible.

Redwomen could would as well (were they called something else before).

The school would have to clamp down hard on anything resembling an Indian.

That's probably the only way it would work.  They'd have to pound home the fact that it's the color red, in which case using Redmen and Redwomen would only help.

I'm not a fan of gender neutrality. Monroe College's men and women's basketball teams are called the Mustangs.

The men should be Mustangs...the women can be Poontangs.

So just the question if you believe the Jewish holocaust existed is repulsive and I’m anti Semitic.

Right. Asking a jew - even newly minted - if he's a self hating jew who denies the holocaust is repulsive and and antisemitic. I'm glad we could agree on that.

Yet the massacre of of an entire race of people was mostly due to poverty and that there wasn’t many Indians anyway. Well the fact that more Jews died from famine and disease than actual gassing shouldn’t somehow diminish what occurred.

I don't know if you can't read or are just dumb and uneducated; I'm guessin all three. Genocide is an intentional action taken to destroy a group of people. Columbus and his euto trash cohort did not set out to destroy the native population; on the contrary, they sought to enslave and exploit it and destroyed it by accident. Hitler on the other hand set out to destroy the Jewish people. Not a subtle difference and yet it seems to have gone flying over your head.

History is often written by the winners and it’s often skewed towards the victor making it truly His-story. American history has tried to hide the greatest mass Genocide in history

The "greatest Mass genocide"? As opposed to what? The tiniest insignificant genocide? If you can't be interesting at least write tight.

And anyway you're wrong. Stalin killed 30 million people, and Mao about the same. Leopold killed about 15 million Congolese. If the US government had murdered every Indian in existence in 1776 it would barely have added up to a million corpses; that's not even Pol Pot territory.

due to their role and I’m speaking of Genocide of the Natives and Africans, which begun during the trans Atlantic Slave trade.

I wouldn't think there was a subject you knew less about than basketball, but it turns out I underestimated your ignorance. The African slave trade was perpetrated mostly by mainly the Portuguese and the Spanish, and after them by the French, Germans, Dutch, and English. Of the 10 million ish slaves transported from Africa, seven million landed in Brazil and 2 million in Cuba. About half a million landed in the United States. Which means most of the trans atlantic slave trade was Africans selling Africans to Iberians as a source of cheap labor on Latin American plantations.

There is this false narrative of population size. Africa, Europe, Asia had tens of millions of people but that didn’t exist in the America’s? There were millions of Native’s men, women, and children slaughtered by the hands of Americans whether through brutal force or political policy and relocation efforts. Why would they admit to it? Oh I forgot...they did.

Are you drunk or is English your second language? Because this is gibberish.

“Damn any man who sympathizes with Indians! ... I have come to kill Indians, and believe it is right and honorable to use any means under God's heaven to kill Indians. ... Kill and scalp all, big and little; nits make lice.”

— Col. John Milton Chivington, U.S. Army

He made it pretty clear what the army’s mission was.

Argumentum ad verecundiam.

If you don’t believe this Genocide existed you are either consciously stupid, a racist, or a Nimrod.

It's impossible to be consciously stupid, stupid. If you're going to attempt insult at least put some effort into it.