Game 14: #12 Butler, NYE Queens 730P/FS1

The goal is to compete for championships,

The goal at St. Johns is not to compete for championships. The goal is to squeak into the Ncaa tournament.  The unreasonable, pie in the sky goal is to actually win an Ncaa tournament game.  Competing for championships is not even on the radar for us.

This toxic, ridiculous thinking is what was behind the unreasonable expectations for the Mullin regime. It's what will get CFC fired 4 years from now as well.

But that’s what the hero left us.

The hero left us two 2nd team all conference selections plus Roberts, Williams and the Duke.

He was left Alibagavic, Jones and Felix the cat.  And if I'm not mistaken only AA played.

Any success the team has this season will have Mullins finger prints all over it.

Thank you Chris for leaving the team in such better shape than you found it.  Thank you!

This is why you can’t be taken seriously. You consistently post that  this is a rebuilding year (while simultaneously predicting a spot
on the bubble) because we were picked to finish 9th, but you absolutely refuse to apply that same logic to any other team in the league, including Butler who was picked to finish 8th just a few points ahead of us, Creighton picked for 7th or DePaul who was picked to finish behind us in last.

Butler is not the 11th best team in the country...not by a long shot. There is no chance they are ranked that high at the end of the season.

In-season rankings are not predictions. They are a reflection of what a team has achieved to date.

So West Virginia isn’t as good as you. think but is 11-1 and only loss is to us, Arizona isn’t as good as you think, and Butler isn’t as good as you think, so pretty much any team we compete with and either barely beat or lose barely too isn’t very good, maybe you finally have a defensive team, because other posters on here have claimed that Mullin wasn’t a very good defensive coach.

The hero left us two 2nd team all conference selections plus Roberts, Williams and the Duke.

He was left Alibagavic, Jones and Felix the cat.

Any success the team has this season will have Mullins finger prints all over it.

Thank you Chris for leaving the team in such better shape than you found it.  Thank you!

left with two players that have played over 15 minutes a game last year LOL, that’s def not much, Williams, Roberts, and Earlington combined for 5.4 pts a game last year.

It sounds like you're putting more weight into Butler's projected finish in the Big East than looking at their body of work on the court to this point in the 2019-2020 season. I understand that their body of work was out of conference however the NCAA committee looks at every game, not just league opponents. Furthermore if you're going to evaluate a team, are you going to evaluate them off their preseason predicted finish or off their W-L record to date in the current season?
 
No objective pollster would rank Butler as the 8th best team in the BE if they made this prediction today.

Not sure how you're making the connection that losing to Butler last night will make it hard for the Johnnies to beat any team in the league.

I suppose you could say that if you mean that on any given night any team in the Big East can lose to any other team in the conference because it's as deep and there's as much competitive balance as ever. In that sense, sure.

You're making an argument against a point I'm not making.

I'm not dismissing Butler or ignoring their body of work or success or questioning their future success or their NCAA potential.

They were considered to be near the bottom of the conference and we lost to them at home. On our path for a successful season this would have been one you wanted a W in. Same could be said for Vermont.

Our road became a little tougher and its unsettling at how poor conference play can look like.

My point exactly. They've far exceeded that preseason prediction and will continue to do so.

How have they exceeded a preseason prediction? They've only played 1 game!!!

My point is that the fact they were picked to finish 8th in the league before the season started is completely irrelevant to whatever point you’re trying to make because if those predictions were made again last week they would have been predicted to finish 1st and 2nd.

Losing at home is always problematic but we were never going to go 9-0 at home. The fact that the loss was to Butler doesn’t mean we will or won’t struggle at home against other BE teams because Butler is at worst the 2nd best team in this conference right now.

Again, I still don’t see why you keep bringing up the fact they were predicted to finish 8th in what are now wildly outdated predictions. They are undoubtedly one of the two best teams in the conference right now.

Their record to date does not impact conference play. Because they beat Purdue does not increase or decrease their chances against Nova.

Their record to date does not impact conference play. Because they beat Purdue does not increase or decrease their chances against Nova.

Sorry, but this is a pretty ignorant statement.  Oh, yes it does.  Are you telling me, when they do the line on the game vs Villanova their prior ooc record has no bearing?

Their record to date does not impact conference play. Because they beat Purdue does not increase or decrease their chances against Nova.

Dave, this is among the dumbest points ever made here. You're claiming that predictions made in October before any games have been played are more useful and more accurate than the metrics and body of work based on the results of 2 months of games. Again, the fact that they were picked to finish 8th in October has literally zero relevance in January. If today was selection Sunday they'd be a 1 seed. Now, a ton can and will change between now and Mid-March, but the fact you're pointing to preseason predictions to drag down a 13-1 legit top 10 team is mind boggling to me.

I'll ask this one more time but you'll probably avoid answering it again. If those same pre-conference play predictions were made on December 29th, one day before conference play started, rather than mid October, where do you think Butler would be predicted to finish?

Their record to date does not impact conference play. Because they beat Purdue does not increase or decrease their chances against Nova.

And also for the record, if Vegas had to put a point spread on a neutral court game between Villanova and Butler based on what they knew in mid-October the line would have been around Villanova -8. If they are making that line based on what they know now it would be Butler -3.5. This is a fact.

So yeah, the fact they beat Purdue (and Minnesota, and Missouri, and Stanford and Ole Miss and Florida) definitely increases their chances to beat Villanova compared to what those chances were perceived to be in Mid October.

left with two players that have played over 15 minutes a game last year LOL, that’s def not much,

I do admire this clever use of statistics to shine the coaching performance of CFC this season in the best possible light. It does omit that the two over 15 minutes were last seasons 2nd and 3rd leading scorers that averaged 31.7 and 32 minutes respectively. These two were so good that they were both 2nd team pre-season all conference selections. Yeah, not a rebuild.

Williams, Roberts, and Earlington combined for 5.4 pts a game last year.

Yes, not surprising that Mullin was not big on playing freshmen. To be expected as he suckled at the Carnesecca teet who always did the same. Moses over Jackson famously among others. Williams played the most of this trio and showed promise last year. Roberts and the Duke showed this observer nothing last season but have been pleasant surprises.  Any way you slice it, that's 5 holdovers that are huge contributors in this year's lineup. By contrast, legend had 0 holdovers from the Lavin days that contributed.

So West Virginia isn’t as good as you. think but is 11-1 and only loss is to us, Arizona isn’t as good as you think, and Butler isn’t as good as you think, so pretty much any team we compete with and either barely beat or lose barely too isn’t very good, maybe you finally have a defensive team, because other posters on here have claimed that Mullin wasn’t a very good defensive coach.

What are you tying to write, guy? Take a deep breath, have a glass of water and try again.

I do admire this clever use of statistics to shine the coaching performance of CFC this season in the best possible light. It does omit that the two over 15 minutes were last seasons 2nd and 3rd leading scorers that averaged 31.7 and 32 minutes respectively. These two were so good that they were both 2nd team pre-season all conference selections. Yeah, not a rebuild. Yes, not surprising that Mullin was not big on playing freshmen. To be expected as he suckled at the Carnesecca teet who always did the same. Moses over Jackson famously among others. Williams played the most of this trio and showed promise last year. Roberts and the Duke showed this observer nothing last season but have been pleasant surprises.  Any way you slice it, that's 5 holdovers that are huge contributors in this year's lineup. By contrast, legend had 0 holdovers from the Lavin days that contributed.

Come on man. Why don't you admit things that everyone else can see.This coach actually has a system and seems to develop players. Last night if Mullin was coaching that game with Heron out and LJ in foul trouble all game they would have lost by 30 points. The players that did nothing under Mullin last year have seemed to really play better under coach Andersons system. You have to admit that's coaching

left with two players that have played over 15 minutes a game last year LOL, that’s def not much, Williams, Roberts, and Earlington combined for 5.4 pts a game last year.

Who would write this when Earlington, Williams, and Roberts have been playing so well all year, Caraher is starting, and two guys were named preseason second team? And throw in 6’9 260 Steere for sh*ts and giggles. How many players does a coach need in the age of the grad transfer/waiver era?!

Seriously, wtf is wrong with some of you?

Before you ever arrived I said Earlington would be a good player here and that Roberts and Williams had all-league potential as upperclassmen. Nobody liked that trio more and I still didn’t think any of them were ready to contribute meaningful minutes last year. Roberts was raw and way too weak. Williams surprised me a bit and I wrote a post titled something along the lines that of his development was the sign of a healthy program—bringing along a quality freshman at an appropriate pace is a luxury we haven’t had in many years and something some Big East schools have done for decades.

Xavier and Creighton have redshirted at least five players I can name off the top of my head that went on to be drafted such as Justin Patton (drafted as the #16 overall player in 2017 after his redshirt freshman season). David West went to be the AP National Player of the year and was chosen #18 overall after being redshirted.  But Patton really drives the point home. He was a 7’0 center with NBA potential that had no chance at of staying all four years and he was still too frail to be of any use to Creighton. If McDermott had been replaced and Patton would have had the same freshman year he had all the credit would have gone to the new coach from people who don’t understand d the game.

Butler’s McDermott played just 10 mpg as a freshman and is one of the best players in the conference as a senior.

I do admire this clever use of statistics to shine the coaching performance of CFC this season in the best possible light. It does omit that the two over 15 minutes were last seasons 2nd and 3rd leading scorers that averaged 31.7 and 32 minutes respectively. These two were so good that they were both 2nd team pre-season all conference selections. Yeah, not a rebuild. Yes, not surprising that Mullin was not big on playing freshmen. To be expected as he suckled at the Carnesecca teet who always did the same. Moses over Jackson famously among others. Williams played the most of this trio and showed promise last year. Roberts and the Duke showed this observer nothing last season but have been pleasant surprises.  Any way you slice it, that's 5 holdovers that are huge contributors in this year's lineup. By contrast, legend had 0 holdovers from the Lavin days that contributed.

It’s not a “clever use of statistics” it is blatant intellectual dishonesty. It’s
exhausting and it makes middle ground impossible.

The goal at St. Johns is not to compete for championships. The goal is to squeak into the Ncaa tournament.  The unreasonable, pie in the sky goal is to actually win an Ncaa tournament game.  Competing for championships is not even on the radar for us.

This toxic, ridiculous thinking is what was behind the unreasonable expectations for the Mullin regime. It's what will get CFC fired 4 years from now as well.

BE regular season championship, BE tournament championship. These are realistic goals to strive for.

Who would write this when Earlington, Williams, and Roberts have been playing so well all year, Caraher is starting, and two guys were named preseason second team? And throw in 6’9 260 Steere for sh*ts and giggles. How many players does a coach need in the age of the grad transfer/waiver era?!

You say this yet believe the team may still finish in last place? Either the roster isn’t good enough to finish top 3 in the league or It is and the coach cant coach. Which is it?

For the record I agree we may finish last in the league, I’m not letting CMA’s brilliance cloud my assessment of the roster. Hence my position that it’s a rebuilding year. That being said coach has these boys playing hard!

You say this yet believe the team may still finish in last place? Either the roster isn’t good enough to finish top 3 in the league or It is and the coach cant coach. Which is it?

For the record I agree we may finish last in the league, I’m not letting CMA’s brilliance cloud my assessment of the roster. Hence my position that it’s a rebuilding year. That being said coach has these boys playing hard!

No, you are trying to play it both ways. If he wins he’s amazing and if he loses it’s a rebuilding year. We have one of the deepest rosters on the conference. How is that a rebuild? You are either impossibly stupid or first ballot at trolling.

Anderson’s “brilliance” got him got fired after last season. His brilliance doesn’t seem to allow him to draw up anything in the half court or in-bounds plays.

If your goal is to have Anderson accepted as a good coach then stop holding him out to unrealistic standards like brilliant and savior. That will make posters push back.

It’s becoming clear that Anderson had his team prepared, ready to play hard, willing to hit the glass and defend, and that he can squeeze production out of almost anyone. It’s equally as clear that he is not a good tactician.

You say this yet believe the team may still finish in last place? Either the roster isn’t good enough to finish top 3 in the league or It is and the coach cant coach. Which is it?

Do you understand how insane you come off? Does middle ground not exist for you? Top three in the league or nothing?

A rebuilding year with this much talent? Amar, Christian, and Felix is rebuilding. Not this.

We have the best athlete in the conference in Dunn. Roberts is top 5 there too and Williams is probably top 15-20. Earlington is the strongest player in the conference. Our front court is top 5. We are one of the deepest teams. We just lack the PG play most teams in our league have. That’s it. In such a competitive year for the league it is the glaring weaknesses that will make the difference. The one unusual caveat there is that Dunn and Williams are such dynamic athletes and defenders at the position that it mitigates the differential.

If all of the players in the league went in a draft where the drafting team would keep the player for his entire career, Champagnie would be a first round pick. Williams, Earlington, and Roberts would all go in the first four or five rounds. Amar, Christian, and Felix would have gone undrafted in a 13 round draft...perhaps Felix would have been drafted on athletic potential late.

Our two seasons of being ranked in the top 15 in the last two decades came with first year coaches. Your rebuilding argument is one if the worst ever offered on this forum.

A ranking isn’t a prediction. It is a reflection of what the team has achieved to date. Nobody in the country would argue they are the 11th best team in college basketball.

I bet if you did a poll of college basketball writers, some would say Butler is better than 11, some would say worse, but on average they would be 11th. Probably a very similar result if you surveyed college coaches. Too bad no one does that so we can’t verify which of us is right.