Game 14: #12 Butler, NYE Queens 730P/FS1

Everyone of y’all didn’t know what to expect for Williams, Earlington, And Roberts and now that they have played well, which has been not credited at all to development.

This is what I wrote about this merely a couple of posts up in this very thread.  We're bipolar?

"Williams, Dr. Roberts and the Duke have been pleasant surprises. I'm willing to give credit to the current staff for this."

The hardy team certainly could have won the big east. They definitely competed for it. Harrison’s junior and senior year teams were good enough. Our current team has a shot.

"The hardy team certainly could have won the big east" if not for the fact that they squeaked by Rutgers on a Wednesday night when Jim Burr suffered a nervous breakdown late, then they lost to Syracuse in the quarterfinals.

"Harrison’s junior and senior year teams were good enough." except for the fact that both teams got beat by Providence in the quarterfinals. Crushed their senior year.

"Our current team has a shot" - Not!

Your credo should be "I type - therefore I'm wrong."

Do you understand how insane you come off? Does middle ground not exist for you? Top three in the league or nothing?

A rebuilding year with this much talent? Amar, Christian, and Felix is rebuilding. Not this.

We have the best athlete in the conference in Dunn. Roberts is top 5 there too and Williams is probably top 15-20. Earlington is the strongest player in the conference. Our front court is top 5. We are one of the deepest teams. We just lack the PG play most teams in our league have. That’s it. In such a competitive year for the league it is the glaring weaknesses that will make the difference. The one unusual caveat there is that Dunn and Williams are such dynamic athletes and defenders at the position that it mitigates the differential.

If all of the players in the league went in a draft where the drafting team would keep the player for his entire career, Champagnie would be a first round pick. Williams, Earlington, and Roberts would all go in the first four or five rounds. Amar, Christian, and Felix would have gone undrafted in a 13 round draft...perhapsz a Felix would have been drafted on athletic potential late.

Our two seasons of being ranked in the top 15 in the last two decades came with first year coaches. Your rebuilding argument is one if the worst ever offered on this forum.

Can we stop comparing what Anderson inherited to what Mullin did as if what Mullin inherited is the rebuilding standard. Rutherford is playing very well so you can’t point to the PG position as a glaring weakness.

Here is were your argument is faulty. Since the PG play has been good based on the assessment of the other players you laid out why would they finish in last place?

I’ll tell you why and it goes to why this is a rebuilding year. Roberts wouldn’t be starting on any other BE team. Earlington and Williams are backups. The only difference between Roberts and Earlington game from last year to this year is the way they are being used. Outside of LJ and Heron, coach inherited backups. You need more than 2 players.

Dunn, Champagnie, Rutherford, and Sears Anderson brought in and were single handily responsible for few wins and make for the depth you speak of.

Just like your argument for Butler not being as good as their ranking I believe you will see Roberts stats begin to fall during conference play.

Top 5 front court yet we should finish in last place the way Rutherford and Dunn has been playing makes no sense unless it’s a terrible coaching job. I take the opposite position and believe the roster isn’t that good but Anderson is good enough to win some games he shouldn’t, he’s done so already and it’s not because of Heron or LJ.

"The hardy team certainly could have won the big east" if not for the fact that they squeaked by Rutgers on a Wednesday night when Jim Burr suffered a nervous breakdown late, then they lost to Syracuse in the quarterfinals.

Heading into the BE tournament anybody who followed us wouldn’t have been surprised if we won the tournament championship that year. The fact that we didn’t isn’t the point.

"Our current team has a shot" - Not!

Agreed, which is why it’s a rebuilding year.

"The hardy team certainly could have won the big east" if not for the fact that they squeaked by Rutgers on a Wednesday night when Jim Burr suffered a nervous breakdown late, then they lost to Syracuse in the quarterfinals.

"Harrison’s junior and senior year teams were good enough." except for the fact that both teams got beat by Providence in the quarterfinals. Crushed their senior year.

"Our current team has a shot" - Not!

Your credo should be "I type - therefore I'm wrong."

I am well aware we didn’t win those years. Thanks carmine. However they were good enough to win. It was a realistic goal. The hardy team beat the top teams in conference that year. The Lavin teams also won their share not only with providence, but with everyone that wasn’t nova.
It wasn’t a realistic goal the last 4 years. Guess why? And it wasn’t a realistic goal the years Norm was here.
Assuming we are not playing Wednesday night, why couldn’t our current team win 3 games vs this kind of competition?
I wouldn’t bet they would win this year. But I can’t wait for the big east. I know they will fight hard and not embarrass us.
The talent is only going to get better here. Plenty of of games will be won. Including games in March.

Heading into the BE tournament anybody who followed us wouldn’t have been surprised if we won the tournament championship that year. The fact that we didn’t isn’t the point.

I followed us and not only would I have been surprised but I would have been near heart attack inducing shocked.

The fact that we didn’t isn’t the point.

Yes, it is the point. While it is true on some level that we COULD win the Be championship. We just haven't actually had a realistic shot in 20 years. Back to my previous example - I COULD bang Victoria Secrets models - but it ain't happening.

Agreed, which is why it’s a rebuilding year.

Wrong. The fact that we have no shot at winning the Be tournament this season doesn't make this a rebuilding year. It makes it another typical year for St. John's basketball.

However they were good enough to win. It was a realistic goal.

If they were good enough to win, then why didn't they win?  They didn't lose a tight final or even get to the semis. Anybody can state a goal. That's the easy part.  They showed next to nothing that tournament.

Assuming we are not playing Wednesday night, why couldn’t our current team win 3 games vs this kind of competition?

I don't know how you can make any assumption about when we'll be playing. We're 0 - 1. (remember the number to the left is the wins and to the right the losses ) Check that - it's you so I get it. Again, they COULD hypothetically win 3 games in the Be tournament, it might take 4, but they won't.  Why? Because We Are...St. Johns!

If they were good enough to win, then why didn't they win?  They didn't lose a tight final or even get to the semis. Anybody can state a goal. That's the easy part.  They showed next to nothing that tournament.I don't know how you can make any assumption about when we'll be playing. We're 0 - 1. (remember the number to the left is the wins and to the right the losses ) Check that - it's you so I get it. Again, they COULD hypothetically win 3 games in the Be tournament, it might take 4, but they won't.  Why? Because We Are...St. Johns!

I am not sure if you really believe the nonsense that you post. It’s beyond ridiculous.
Those teams didn’t win. That’s a fact. The hardy team was playing great until DJ got hurt. They still competed against a very good Syracuse team.
Harrison’s junior year we were the hottest team in the big east. From memory we played a poor first half. That team was plenty good.
Senior year they got killed.
That’s not the point. All 3 of those teams were good.
You and your ilk continually say we have been bad for 20 years. That’s not true. We were not bad when Jarvis, Fran, and Lavin were coaches.
We were ONLY bad when norm and lazy ass were coaches. Norm looked like he tried. He was completely overmatched. Honestly I can’t believe that you actually believe that mullin was a real coach. He barely spoke to his players. Did you watch  him with you eyes closed?
Anderson is just getting started here. So far he is exceeding just about everyone’s expectations.

You and your ilk continually say we have been bad for 20 years. 

That's not true. You don't seem capable of understanding the topic at hand then put words in my mouth to promote your twisted anti-St. John's agenda.

I never said we've been bad for 20 years. I said that we haven't won a conference championship in 20 years. We've been bad for MOST of the last 20 years. I know that we've had some high points in this millennial (last seasons hugely successful campaign for instance). I was there for all of them.  My point is simply that even our best teams never even got close to sniffing a BE conference championship. Which I've pointed out in my other posts.

So it's easy to say our goal is to do this and do that with no recent history to show it's even remotely possible. To me it's disingenuous.

That's not true. You don't seem capable of understanding the topic at hand then put words in my mouth to promote your twisted anti-St. John's agenda.

I never said we've been bad for 20 years. I said that we haven't won a conference championship in 20 years. We've been bad for MOST of the last 20 years. I know that we've had some high points in this millennial (last seasons hugely successful campaign for instance). I was there for all of them.  My point is simply that even our best teams never even got close to sniffing a BE conference championship. Which I've pointed out in my other posts.

So it's easy to say our goal is to do this and do that with no recent history to show it's even remotely possible. To me it's disingenuous.

Last year was not a success. The team looked great early but the team tired because of Mullin’s poor use of the roster....overplaying his key players lead to exhaustion, particularly for Ponds who was never in good shape. I’m a big Mullin fan but after 2 years I could see the writing on the wall. Last year there should have been at least 23 wins. You will argue the freshman were raw. They needed to play during the cupcake schedule so that they could play 8-15 minutes. From the little I saw last year of the three kids, they were all capable of playing enough to help. The Duke in particular looked good in the few minutes he played.  Successful teams don’t fold down the stretch.

I followed us and not only would I have been surprised but I would have been near heart attack inducing shocked.Yes, it is the point. While it is true on some level that we COULD win the Be championship. We just haven't actually had a realistic shot in 20 years. Back to my previous example - I COULD bang Victoria Secrets models - but it ain't happening. Wrong. The fact that we have no shot at winning the Be tournament this season doesn't make this a rebuilding year. It makes it another typical year for St. John's basketball.

If you don’t believe a top 25 team has a realistic chance on winning their conference tournament you don’t understand basketball.

If you don’t believe a top 25 team has a realistic chance on winning their conference tournament you don’t understand basketball.

If you believe a St. Johns team has a realistic chance of winning their conference tournament regardless of their ranking than you don't understand St. John's basketball.

Last year was not a success.

I'll agree with this statement only if you believe that no St. John's basketball team has had a successful year this millennium. Because last season matched the best outcome of any team last 20 years.

Last year there should have been at least 23 wins.

How did you arrive at that arbitrary number?

You will argue the freshman were raw.

I'm perfectly capable of coming up with my own ideas.
 

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1212199190815760384

This is awesome!  Nice we are getting some love from Fran.

I'll agree with this statement only if you believe that no St. John's basketball team has had a successful year this millennium. Because last season matched the best outcome of any team last 20 years.How did you arrive at that arbitrary number?I'm perfectly capable of coming up with my own ideas.

2 more wins against DePaul which should have been no problem. What do you think caused last year’s fade? 

If they were good enough to win, then why didn't they win? 

Based on that same logic, if we finish in last place or second to last, would that mean the roster Anderson inherited wasn’t good enough to not finish in that position? If the roster isn’t good enough, then we need to rebuild.

Ok. I wouldn't want to be labeled a contrarian. 
Yes he does. 40 minutes of hell, defensive pressure and trapping to force turnovers and easy baskets and fast break offense.

Mullin had a system too. Pro style, star dominated offense with individual decision making and freedom to create one on one, drive confidently or shoot the three without conscience at a premium.   
Williams, Dr. Roberts and the Duke have been pleasant surprises. I'm willing to give credit to the current staff for this. Yet, I'm also aware that freshmen becoming better players as sophomores is not an uncommon occurrence.

Mullin developed players too. Walden, LJ and Garfunkel spring to mind. 
I don't know what hypothetically would have happened in some alternate universe. Neither do you.
See above.

How about the players that did something? Gil Scott's been good playing against the Sisters of the Poor. Against decent teams - not so much. In the smallest of sample sizes, LJ was horrific in the conference opener.

I actually agree with mostly all of your post here. I guess what I am trying to say is that with Andersons system they do not need to be the most talented team to be able to win every night. I totally agree with you about Mullins system but the problem that I have with it is that he is a brilliant basketball mind, and a lifer. He sees the game way differently than most people do. He has an extremely high basketball IQ and basketball awareness, and he seemed to expect his team and college kids to see what he saw and it just did not translate. He also never seemed to correct anything or discipline a player if they did something wrong during the game, he was to busy complaining to the refs. We have differing pinions but I do respect and appreciate your opinion.

Are you as stupid as the rest of the holdovers? I wrote that they’ve earned their spot based on their resume to date. That doesn’t make them the 11th best team, though. They may have the 11th best resume or even the best f*cking resume on January 2nd, but they aren’t even remotely close to the 11th best team in the country on the court. Nobody with half a brain would make that claim.

They haven’t won a single game against a top 25 ranked team.

They're #7 on KenPom FWIW

I actually agree with mostly all of your post here. I guess what I am trying to say is that with Andersons system they do not need to be the most talented team to be able to win every night. I totally agree with you about Mullins system but the problem that I have with it is that he is a brilliant basketball mind, and a lifer. He sees the game way differently than most people do. He has an extremely high basketball IQ and basketball awareness, and he seemed to expect his team and college kids to see what he saw and it just did not translate. He also never seemed to correct anything or discipline a player if they did something wrong during the game, he was to busy complaining to the refs. We have differing pinions but I do respect and appreciate your opinion.

How can you agree with carmine and praise the coach Chris mullin as a basketball genius. Then a few sentences later admit you watched him not coach his team?

That's not true. You don't seem capable of understanding the topic at hand then put words in my mouth to promote your twisted anti-St. John's agenda.

I never said we've been bad for 20 years. I said that we haven't won a conference championship in 20 years. We've been bad for MOST of the last 20 years. I know that we've had some high points in this millennial (last seasons hugely successful campaign for instance). I was there for all of them.  My point is simply that even our best teams never even got close to sniffing a BE conference championship. Which I've pointed out in my other posts.

So it's easy to say our goal is to do this and do that with no recent history to show it's even remotely possible. To me it's disingenuous.

The topic at hand is the butler game. In that game our new coach who is 11-3 almost beat a top 10 team in the country. He did that without his top 2 players. That’s reality. All of you mullintards were quiet until we lost a game.
Now butler is over rated. Even though they are rated high by every metric. Last a MAC school was a good win. But this year a loss to a top 10 team is a bad loss?
Last year mullin had no bench. Now Anderson has all of these great players to work with. You and you ilk are full of crap!
Carmine if you want to bang super models get off you ass and try. You might not ever achieve you goal. But you are never going get there if you don’t give it a shot. So you just like St. John’s basketball isn’t cursed. St. John’s basketball got rid of their dead weight you should to. (I started my diet yesterday)