When do the excuses run out?

I responded to you and then transitioned to the group.  I thought using "you guys" to start that transition would make that clear.

You are absolutely wrong if you think the problem has been us "making awful choices when it comes to hiring a coach."  The problem is this program and its fans.

When you fire a coach, you are committing to a rebuild. Lavin's rebuild was delayed a year thanks to being bequeathed 10 seniors. His name recognition and personality allowed him to keep everyone.

Anderson is far from perfect.  Our half court offense is basic.  We have no inbounds plays.  We don't outrecruit any major schools for highly regarded recruits. But we are a deeply flawed program, so what can we expect? This is why I pushed back against some of the early outlandish comments made by posters.  I even wrote then that I'd be the one defending him when the firing squad comes around. Hell, our official nickname should be St. John's Firing Squad.  Nobody fires more coaches than us.

So what you are basically saying is that since we are a flawed program we will never get a good recruit or a good coach? I think he should be given 4-5 years to see if he can turn the program around. Why were Lavin and Mullin(although they weren't able to develop or in game coach well) able to recruit some solid talent here and a coach who has never had a losing season and a solid track record can't bring any?

The problem is the program. Not the fans. Blaming the fans is a suckers game. People go in NY when the team wins. Our former head coaches have gone on to do absolutely nothing. Just like evaluating a player is a talent, evaluating a coach is a talent, too.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.  Anderson is either close to the best or the best we can hope for. Look at his resume. Nobody wanted this job when it was available last.  We were a national embarrassment. It only gets harder after each subsequent firing. 

A man who never had a losing season in two decades has faced the prospect of losing seasons his first two years here.  Who wants to follow that up?  And a system coach too with a roster of 2 and 3* kids geared to a very specific style.

When you fire a coach you have to expect to lose any pledged recruits and half of the current roster. You also lose two years of recruiting inroads made by the past staff. Losing for two years is unacceptable to our fans so the negativity starts and the calls for firing make it harder to recruit.  That is our pattern.  And every time we think next time will be different.

Let's just ride this Anderson wave for better or worse.  And maybe the maniacs that shouted his praise last year can kindly STFU.

The problem is the program. Not the fans. Blaming the fans is a suckers game. People go in NY when the team wins. Our former head coaches have gone on to do absolutely nothing. Just like evaluating a player is a talent, evaluating a coach is a talent, too.

Jarvis was on a hall of fame trajectory before coming here. Lavin was solid, but not good enough for the ridiculous expectations at UCLA. Anderson is a borderline hall of fame coach himself when you factor in his resume as an assistant. Realistically, Mullin overperformed by quite a bit for someone with no previous coaching experience at any level. St. John's is where coaching careers come to die.

Every AAU and high school coach in the area thinks they are owed respect. Every fan that buys season tickets thinks they deserve a say. It's just mom and pop enough of a program that many of those people have influenced the program too. We also have beat writers that play politics on a level not seen anywhere else in the sports world.

Fran said he wouldn't wish the St. John's job on anyone because of all those negative elements.  He couldn't get out of town fast enough and wanted to be on a big state school campus.

Jarvis was on a hall of fame trajectory before coming here. Lavin was solid, but not good enough for the ridiculous expectations at UCLA. Anderson is a borderline hall of fame coach himself when you factor in his resume as an assistant. Realistically, Mullin overperformed by quite a bit for someone with no previous coaching experience at any level. St. John's is where coaching careers come to die.

Every AAU and high school coach in the area thinks they are owed respect. Every fan that buys season tickets thinks they deserve a say. It's just mom and pop enough of a program that many of those people have influenced the program too. We also have beat writers that play politics on a level not seen anywhere else in the sports world.

Fran said he wouldn't wish the St. John's job on anyone because of all those negative elements.  He couldn't get out of town fast enough and wanted to be on a big state school campus.

I had nothing against Jarvis when he came here. It was incredible in the first year, but from there, the signs of his deterioration were there.

He could not get along with people. He wasn’t Bobby Knight, but ESPN’s The Season showed everyone what his coaching style was like in practice. Did it turn Anthony Glover into an All BE player when Jarvis repeatedly called him fat? Future recruits saw this, their parents saw this, and I think that finished him.

The last straw was when Jarvis said that he wasn’t going to waste his time chasing after these local princess kids who wanted to be treated like stars. The problem is, that’s the job.

All that said, he was our head coach for the best moments we’ve had since Coach Carnesecca was here. Johnnies aren’t ones for accountability. They pinned Pittsburgh on Jarvis, even though he had been fired by then.

And BTW, you are probably too young to remember, but people used to walk out of MSG calling for Coach Carnesecca to be fired - because the game had passed him by.

people used to walk out of MSG calling for Coach Carnesecca to be fired - because the game had passed him by.

Hadn't it though?

And BTW, you are probably too young to remember, but people used to walk out of MSG calling for Coach Carnesecca to be fired - because the game had passed him by.

That is before my time, but that lines up perfectly with the fanbase that I know today.  The changes brought on by the college football arms race left us in the dust and our fans haven't been able to accept that new reality. College programs have been proliferating upgrades and technology while Jarvis was picking up recruits in a station wagon from Laguardia with no practice facility and a home court that looked like a high school gym.

This isn't directed at you, but I cannot understand how anyone could look back at the Jarvis firing and think it was a mistake.  He just landed Top 25 Daryll Hill, McDonald's All-American Elijah Ingram, top 100 Lamont Hamilton, Hatten two years earlier, top 5 JUCO Rodney Epperson for the following year, a ton of top 75 recruits, and who knows what he would have done for the following year after getting canned in the first month of the season.  Just think of 3 years with Ingram-Showtime-Hamilton could have been with some nice pieces added around them.  He brought in a stud every year.  Omar Cook, Marcus Hatten, Showtime/Hamilton.

The thing with St. John's is you can't miss. Jarvis missed on Lenny Cooke and #52 RSCI Mo Diakate. Had Jarvis gone after Melo, he probably has another Final Four on his resume.  On top of those misses he got really unlucky having Barkley chased out by the NCAA and Omar Cook going pro in the 11th hour.

That is before my time, but that lines up perfectly with the fanbase that I know today.  The changes brought on by the college football arms race left us in the dust and our fans haven't been able to accept that new reality. College programs have been proliferating upgrades and technology while Jarvis was picking up recruits in a station wagon from Laguardia with no practice facility and a home court that looked like a high school gym.

This isn't directed at you, but I cannot understand how anyone could look back at the Jarvis firing and think it was a mistake.  He just landed Top 25 Daryll Hill, McDonald's All-American Elijah Ingram, top 100 Lamont Hamilton, Hatten two years earlier, top 5 JUCO Rodney Epperson for the following year, a ton of top 75 recruits, and who knows what he would have done for the following year after getting canned in the first month of the season.  Just think of 3 years with Ingram-Showtime-Hamilton could have been with some nice pieces added around them.  He brought in a stud every year.  Omar Cook, Marcus Hatten, Showtime/Hamilton.

The thing with St. John's is you can't miss. Jarvis missed on Lenny Cooke and #52 RSCI Mo Diakate. Had Jarvis gone after Melo, he probably has another Final Four on his resume.  On top of those misses he got really unlucky having Barkley chased out by the NCAA and Omar Cook going pro in the 11th hour.

For the most part, that’s all accurate, but you left out that Epperson was never academically eligible, and he stopped playing after a few games.

For the most part, that’s all accurate, but you left out that Epperson was never academically eligible, and he stopped playing after a few games.

and there was a better Juco that was supposed to come but wound but lightening it up at Fresno St.

and there was a better Juco that was supposed to come but wound but lightening it up at Fresno St.

Quinton Hosley, I believe.

and there was a better Juco that was supposed to come but wound but lightening it up at Fresno St.

Quentin Hosley was a STUD.  NYC kid who wanted to play for Jarvis and St. John's.  He averaged 18.6 and 9.2 for Fresno St. his first year after JUCO.

Here is a quote from him after he went undrafted in the NBA draft: 

"He was all set to go to St. John's, his dream school. But when Norm Roberts
took over for the fired Mike Jarvis, St. John's showed no interest in him
because it couldn't afford to give him the year away he needed to get his
grades up."

Epperson was a stud too. Back in those days when the admission hurdles were much higher, coaches stashed players in JUCO and monitored them regularly.  When Jarvis was canned like six games in, Epperson didn't have that oversight. IMO it would have made the difference, but obviously that can never be proven.  I remember really liking the class Jarvis had coming in the year after he was fired. I'd rather not go back and remember, because it's too disappointing.  Showtime-Ingram-Hosley-Epperson-Hamilton would have been a Sweet Sixteen group.

Quinton Hosley, I believe.

Yes

Epperson was a stud too. Back in those days when the admission hurdles were much higher, coaches stashed players in JUCO and monitored them regularly.  When Jarvis was canned like six games in, Epperson didn't have that oversight. IMO it would have made the difference, but obviously that can never be proven. 

Yeah, that's not exactly what happened. Exactly what happened was that Epperson was academically ineligible for college despite attending high school for six years and only became eligible because he went to Barton County CC and played for Randy Wolf, who was shortly thereafter indicted on federal charges related to among other things "providing ... false academic credentials to athletes." The judge who sentenced Wolf said that fraud was "something everybody knew was going on at Barton County Community College," which everybody I'd assume included Jarhead, who was according to you regularly monitoring the situation.

Yeah, that's not exactly what happened. Exactly what happened was that Epperson was academically ineligible for college despite attending high school for six years and only became eligible because he went to Barton County CC and played for Randy Wolf, who was shortly thereafter indicted on federal charges related to among other things "providing ... false academic credentials to athletes." The judge who sentenced Wolf said that fraud was "something everybody knew was going on at Barton County Community College," which everybody I'd assume included Jarhead, who was according to you regularly monitoring the situation.

I would assume that statement was regarding people inside Barton. As someone who coached JUCO I don’t see how a coach could possibly know that information. Epperson wouldn’t have needed a doctored transcript if he was meeting minimum requirements. Having no coach hanging over him couldn’t have helped. It’s also possible that he was one of those kids that was beyond help. JUCO staffs have to deal with a ton of sh*t like walking kids to class, talking to professors/tutors, and making sure players go to study hall and actually do work. It really helps when there is a strict 4-year college coach hanging over them.

I would assume that statement was regarding people inside Barton. As someone who coached JUCO I don’t see how a coach could possibly know that information. Epperson wouldn’t have needed a doctored transcript if he was meeting minimum requirements. Having no coach hanging over him couldn’t have helped. It’s also possible that he was one of those kids that was beyond help. JUCO staffs have to deal with a ton of sh*t like walking kids to class, talking to professors/tutors, and making sure players go to study hall and actually do work. It really helps when there is a strict 4-year college coach hanging over them.

I disagree with your assertion that the Jarvae was "strict." He ran according to a Sports Illustrated article from a few years ago the 24th most corrupt basketball program in human history. When he wasn't recruiting sexual predators, women beaters, and crack dealers in waiting he was paying his players under the table.

Odd thing I notice. On the one hand you decry posters whose feelings about Anderson do not allow for gray areas. And yet here, with Jarhead, he's a strict disciplinarian on a hall of fame trajectory who was on the fast track to the sweet 16. Whereas he was on the fast track to 76-112 in the Sunbelt conference

I disagree with your assertion that the Jarvae was "strict." He ran according to a Sports Illustrated article from a few years ago the 24th most corrupt basketball program in human history. When he wasn't recruiting sexual predators, women beaters, and crack dealers in waiting he was paying his players under the table.

Odd thing I notice. On the one hand you decry posters whose feelings about Anderson do not allow for gray areas. And yet here, with Jarhead, he's a strict disciplinarian on a hall of fame trajectory who was on the fast track to the sweet 16. Whereas he was on the fast track to 76-112 in the Sunbelt conference

A lot of things were different 24 years ago.  Cosby was still America's dad and not the single greatest serial rapist in the history of humankind. Every major program in the country has either directly or indirectly been outed for cheating since that line about Jarvis was penned.  The only difference with Jarvis is that he was caught -- and he was only caught because he was fired by a fake AD in the middle of the year which allowed a scandal to develop. I also believe his cheating was of the JV variety -- because everything is JV at St. John's.

I allow for criticism of Jarvis.  I have a few of my own...he didn't run an advanced system and wasn't an X's and O's guru.  He missed on some huge recruits which cost us some very good ones. He was certainly arrogant and rubbed some people the wrong way.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard Carmelo Anthony wanted to come to St. Johhn's since he was originally from Brooklyn and was very proud of his NY roots. Jarvis, I'm told, went hard after the then more highly ranked Lenny Coooke in spite of the red flags. This was when high school players had to be one year removed from their graduating class in order to qualify for the draft.

Jarvis was certainly a flawed coach, but he's better than anything we had since. We could have also avoided the scandal and Norm Roberts years.

No coach has been successful after St. John's and that is really irrelevant to his firing. We fired a coach that took three schools to the dance, had been to multiple Sweet Sixteens, took us to to within a shot of the Final Four three years earlier, won the Big East the year after that, and who made the tournament and won the NIT the two years immediately prior.  We fire that guys six games into the 2003-2004 season.  We deserved everything that has happened to us since.

A lot of things were different 24 years ago.  Cosby was still America's dad and not the single greatest serial rapist in the history of humankind. Every major program in the country has either directly or indirectly been outed for cheating since that line about Jarvis was penned.  The only difference with Jarvis is that he was caught -- and he was only caught because he was fired by a fake AD in the middle of the year which allowed a scandal to develop. I also believe his cheating was of the JV variety -- because everything is JV at St. John's.

I allow for criticism of Jarvis.  I have a few of my own...he didn't run an advanced system and wasn't an X's and O's guru.  He missed on some huge recruits which cost us some very good ones. He was certainly arrogant and rubbed some people the wrong way.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard Carmelo Anthony wanted to come to St. Johhn's since he was originally from Brooklyn and was very proud of his NY roots. Jarvis, I'm told, went hard after the then more highly ranked Lenny Coooke in spite of the red flags. This was when high school players had to be one year removed from their graduating class in order to qualify for the draft.

Jarvis was certainly a flawed coach, but he's better than anything we had since. We could have also avoided the scandal and Norm Roberts years.

No coach has been successful after St. John's and that is really irrelevant to his firing. We fired a coach that took three schools to the dance, had been to multiple Sweet Sixteens, took us to to within a shot of the Final Four three years earlier, won the Big East the year after that, and who made the tournament and won the NIT the two years immediately prior.  We fire that guys six games into the 2003-2004 season.  We deserved everything that has happened to us since.

Respect your opinion a lot Marillac, however.

Jarvis never won with his recruits. That was Fran's team. And, he was no where near refilling the funnel as Fran's guys moved on. jarvis told the NYC HS/prep community he was NOT going to recruit their kids. The recruits he did turn off would be an NBA all star team...Ben Gordon, Russell Robinson, Jason Fraser, and now we hearing Carmelo Anthony.

Jarvis was probably the best X and O guy short of Mike Dunlap we've had this century. Poor recruiter, poor masthead for the school and the program.

At the time of Jarvis' firing Francesa commented that he had been a no-show at the President's annual dinner at SJU in an apparent effort to get himself fired rather than coach what was anticipated to be a depleted losing team.

A lot of things were different 24 years ago.  Cosby was still America's dad and not the single greatest serial rapist in the history of humankind. Every major program in the country has either directly or indirectly been outed for cheating since that line about Jarvis was penned.  The only difference with Jarvis is that he was caught -- and he was only caught because he was fired by a fake AD in the middle of the year which allowed a scandal to develop. I also believe his cheating was of the JV variety -- because everything is JV at St. John's.

I allow for criticism of Jarvis.  I have a few of my own...he didn't run an advanced system and wasn't an X's and O's guru.  He missed on some huge recruits which cost us some very good ones. He was certainly arrogant and rubbed some people the wrong way.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard Carmelo Anthony wanted to come to St. Johhn's since he was originally from Brooklyn and was very proud of his NY roots. Jarvis, I'm told, went hard after the then more highly ranked Lenny Coooke in spite of the red flags. This was when high school players had to be one year removed from their graduating class in order to qualify for the draft.

Jarvis was certainly a flawed coach, but he's better than anything we had since. We could have also avoided the scandal and Norm Roberts years.

No coach has been successful after St. John's and that is really irrelevant to his firing. We fired a coach that took three schools to the dance, had been to multiple Sweet Sixteens, took us to to within a shot of the Final Four three years earlier, won the Big East the year after that, and who made the tournament and won the NIT the two years immediately prior.  We fire that guys six games into the 2003-2004 season.  We deserved everything that has happened to us since.

I have no interest in relitigating the Jarvis years or in rehabilitating Bill Cosby - although it should be noted that when Attila's soldiers found a baby to gang rape if all other orifices were occupied they made their own with their daggers, so there's at least a couple other contenders - and I don't disagree with much of this, especially "we deserved everything that has happened to us," to which I would add we deserve it good and hard. But here's an alternative take: if Mike Jarvis was not so lazy, stupid and arrogant, there would have been no Norm Roberts years. Jarvis, as a minority coach handed an elite eight team in New York City, was given the keys to the kingdom. Which keys to the kingdom he parlayed into obscurity. As usual, YMMV

It was a bush move firing Jarvis mid-season and we paid for it dearly.

No Butler thread?  We won.

It was a bush move firing Jarvis mid-season and we paid for it dearly.

No Butler thread?  We won.

Crazy week with work I didn't get to start a thread and looks like no one else did.