Evaluating progress

Two weeks ago you were posting about moving on from Anderson if he didn't right the ship.  I posted that we would win 3-4 in a row at some point this season and people would overreact.  Our fans are insane.  Here you are asking about progress?  There is no progress at this point.  We are the same as or worse than last year right now.  Just sit back and try not to put too much into everything.

On the contrary, we are not the same as last year. We have 3 BE wins and we haven’t played DePaul yet.

To clarify, I’m posting about progress, but only because that’s the entire point of this. College Basketball, that is.

No one game planned for Postell in 1996.

A typically stupid nonresponse. Postell played with four NBA players over his career and otherwise with some of the better players SJ has ever had, not "the kind of unknown player CMA gets."

A typically stupid nonresponse. Postell played with four NBA players over his career and otherwise with some of the better players SJ has ever had, not "the kind of unknown player CMA gets."

Make a better point. This one failed. Kid helped us beat UConn. He’s playing meaningful minutes. I don’t care what his ranking was if he continues to play like he is.

Go bitch about someone else. This one is a win for Coach Anderson.

Rather have a crash car dummy-more active and eats less.

When I was at Eli Lilly, my roommate was a 5th string TE from Florida. They used the poor guy as a tackling dummy for LB Wilbur Marshall. He was on scholarship, never saw the field, but was used to make their All-American a better LB.

Toro could fill that, and only that, role.

Make a better point. This one failed. Kid helped us beat UConn. He’s playing meaningful minutes. I don’t care what his ranking was if he continues to play like he is.

Go bitch about someone else. This one is a win for Coach Anderson.

Sorry dummy that my point went flying over your head. Allow me to restate it in terms that even a simpleton such as yourself can understand.

You say that you want to "sign up" for the kind of "unknown players" that Coach Home Run recruits. Quite rationally I point out that virtually no coach has ever had sustained success anywhere signing "unknown players," and note that part of Hsususus's success thus far - which I acknowledged - is that no one on the other team cares what he does. You reply with a nonsequitur about Lavor Postell, who played with half a dozen players - including four NBA players - who are in the conversation for a place on the SJU all modern team, as opposed to the sort of "unknown players" that you're clamoring up for. You then reply with another nonsequitur and declare victory. Which is what you usually do, because you're rhetorically feeble.

Sorry dummy that my point went flying over your head. Allow me to restate it in terms that even a simpleton such as yourself can understand.

You say that you want to "sign up" for the kind of "unknown players" that Coach Home Run recruits. Quite rationally I point out that virtually no coach has ever had sustained success anywhere signing "unknown players," and note that part of Hsususus's success thus far - which I acknowledged - is that no one on the other team cares what he does. You reply with a nonsequitur about Lavor Postell, who played with half a dozen players - including four NBA players - who are in the conversation for a place on the SJU all modern team, as opposed to the sort of "unknown players" that you're clamoring up for. You then reply with another nonsequitur and declare victory. Which is what you usually do, because you're rhetorically feeble.

Success with unknown players is what made the Butler, Creighton and Xavier programs. I’m ok with giving it a try seeing how Champagnie, Alexander and Wusu make up a nice core of low ranked kids that are playing like high ranked kids.

When I was at Eli Lilly, my roommate was a 5th string TE from Florida. They used the poor guy as a tackling dummy for LB Wilbur Marshall. He was on scholarship, never saw the field, but was used to make their All-American a better LB.

Toro could fill that, and only that, role.

Toro is the best back-to-the-basket scorer we've had since Lamont Hamilton -- which sadly doesn't mean as much as it should.  Why he isn't utilized more is puzzling to me.  The kid can pass well too. Dump it down to him 8-10x a game if for no other reason then giving the defense something else to worry about.  It's the same reason why good passing teams have to commit to the run early in the NFL and it's the same reason why good strikers in MMA should threaten takedowns. 

I find it hard to believe Toro could put up the stats that he did at an A-10 school and just turned into garbage as a 5th year senior when he arrives here.  Meanwhile, half the conference can utilize D-2 grad transfer big men.  Toro put up 7.5 pts, 7.5 rebounds, and nearly an assist per game his last three years at GW. 

I'd start Toro and get him 2-4 looks down low before the first TV timeout.  Even if he passes out, that has to be better than anything we get in the half court on a normal possession.

Success with unknown players is what made the Butler, Creighton and Xavier programs. I’m ok with giving it a try seeing how Champagnie, Alexander and Wusu make up a nice core of low ranked kids that are playing like high ranked kids.

Have you looked at the rankings of the kids these schools have brought in since they joined the conference?  According to the RSCI rankings, Xavier right now has #29 Paul Scruggs, #54 Dwon Odom, and #83 Kyky Tandy.  They just graduated Naji Marshall and Quintin Gooden who were highly ranked as well. Before that is was top 40 Trevon Bluiett.

Creighton has four top 100 RSCI recruits on the roster now.  They had five in 2017-2018.

Butler lives in the 90-130 range of recruits...and they get skilled kids with high basketball IQs so they miss far less on raw athletes.

We are the only program in the Big East that has a lineup of this many 2* and 3* kids.  We are the only program without a top 100 ranked recruit. Anderson always had top 100 talent to go with his diamonds in the rough. Even for a system program, I don't think you can survive trying to find Champagnie and Wusu types regularly if you don't have a few top 100 kids on the roster at all times.

Success with unknown players is what made the Butler, Creighton and Xavier programs. I’m ok with giving it a try seeing how Champagnie, Alexander and Wusu make up a nice core of low ranked kids that are playing like high ranked kids.

Thank you for your cogent response. I disagree. Champagnie certainly has been better than advertised. Posh plays like a freshman PG, albeit he's capable of overwhelming lesser competition. Hsususu you must be grading on potential. He's been better than advertised and I think he'll be a good four year players but currently he's still a project. Assuming arguendo that these players are playing better than their rankings, it'd be difficult to point to more than a handful of teams that have had sustained success with that model, ie coaching up under the radar players. That's why almost all coaches everywhere strive to get the highest rated players possible and why there's an entire industry devoted to identifying and ranking those players.

Of the three teams you mention, two were coached by certified wunderkind - Brad Stevens and Chris Mack - and the third by Doug McDermott's father, who's for my money the best coach in the league and who over the past five years has coached recruited eight top-100 players: Harrell, Patton, Ballock, Alexander, Epperson, Joseph, O'Connell and someone called Rati Andronikashvili.

Whereas Coach Home Run is far from a wunderkind. He's an old man who's never won anything of significance and has managed a Lou-esque three NCAA tournament wins this decade. He's to my mind at the top of the bottom tier of coaches in the league, above Laetio and Ewing and on about a par with Travis Steele - who's recruited Bluiett, Goodin, Marshall, Scruggs, Tandy, Odom, all top-100 players - and floor slapping dope Wojowosksky, who's an idiot but he's a pretty good recruiter, or at least his boosters are. I don't see how Iron Mike's fabulous system suddenly translates to success, especially at the black hole of coaching that comprises the gym on Utopia Parkway. As usual, YMMV

Thank you for your cogent response. I disagree. Champagnie certainly has been better than advertised. Posh plays like a freshman PG, albeit he's capable of overwhelming lesser competition. Hsususu you must be grading on potential. He's been better than advertised and I think he'll be a good four year players but currently he's still a project. Assuming arguendo that these players are playing better than their rankings, it'd be difficult to point to more than a handful of teams that have had sustained success with that model, ie coaching up under the radar players. That's why almost all coaches everywhere strive to get the highest rated players possible and why there's an entire industry devoted to identifying and ranking those players.

Of the three teams you mention, two were coached by certified wunderkind - Brad Stevens and Chris Mack - and the third by Doug McDermott's father, who's for my money the best coach in the league and who over the past five years has coached recruited eight top-100 players: Harrell, Patton, Ballock, Alexander, Epperson, Joseph, O'Connell and someone called Rati Andronikashvili.

Whereas Coach Home Run is far from a wunderkind. He's an old man who's never won anything of significance and has managed a Lou-esque three NCAA tournament wins this decade. He's to my mind at the top of the bottom tier of coaches in the league, above Laetio and Ewing and on about a par with Travis Steele - who's recruited Bluiett, Goodin, Marshall, Scruggs, Tandy, Odom, all top-100 players - and floor slapping dope Wojowosksky, who's an idiot but he's a pretty good recruiter, or at least his boosters are. I don't see how Iron Mike's fabulous system suddenly translates to success, especially at the black hole of coaching that comprises the gym on Utopia Parkway. As usual, YMMV

Aside from the kids Fran brought it, we’ve had a lousy history of developing local talent.

Post 1992: How many recruits can look back at St.John’s and say it was the right choice for their career?

Champ - improved
Posh - improved
Wusu - improved

We look like we may be a good idea for local talent for the first time in a long time.

Obviously, we have to finish the season with a lot more than we’ve shown, but I’m seeing clear progress with those three guys.

For Wusu, if he can give us 7-10 off the bench the rest of the way, I’m encouraged.

Aside from the kids Fran brought it, we’ve had a lousy history of developing local talent.

Post 1992: How many recruits can look back at St.John’s and say it was the right choice for their career?

Champ - improved
Posh - improved
Wusu - improved

We look like we may be a good idea for local talent for the first time in a long time.

Obviously, we have to finish the season with a lot more than we’ve shown, but I’m seeing clear progress with those three guys.

For Wusu, if he can give us 7-10 off the bench the rest of the way, I’m encouraged.

Post 1992 puts me at a bit of a disadvantage, I spent half the 90s on the road, and you know, cocaine. But yes, based on those limited criteria almost no players who attended SJU since then made a wise decision going to St John's. Because St Johns has in the main stunk since 1992. Anthony Glover I think did okay, he probably would not have thrived elsewhere. Darryl Hill might have, but he got crippled. Lamont Hamilton might have, but Hill got crippled. Kyle Cuffe - who I loathed - had a nice senior year. Gene Lawrence absolutely made a wise decision. Ahmed did okay. Ponds excelled. But yeah, most of our players have stunk, as have most of our teams. Exit question: even if SJ were to become a destination for some NYC players - considering the pull of UConn and SH  and considering the changing face of college BB - are there enough of them to create sustained success.

I like the three players you mentioned. Second exit question: is bringing in three sort of good players every two years enough to create sustained success in a league where other programs are bringing in very good players every year? Or is it a recipe for sixth place and an NCAA tournament every once a while and if it is, why'd they fire the other guys? Anyone can beat DePaul. Even Norm did that.

Post 1992 puts me at a bit of a disadvantage, I spent half the 90s on the road, and you know, cocaine. But yes, based on those limited criteria almost no players who attended SJU since then made a wise decision going to St John's. Because St Johns has in the main stunk since 1992. Anthony Glover I think did okay, he probably would not have thrived elsewhere. Darryl Hill might have, but he got crippled. Lamont Hamilton might have, but Hill got crippled. Kyle Cuffe - who I loathed - had a nice senior year. Gene Lawrence absolutely made a wise decision. Ahmed did okay. Ponds excelled. But yeah, most of our players have stunk, as have most of our teams. Exit question: even if SJ were to become a destination for some NYC players - considering the pull of UConn and SH  and considering the changing face of college BB - are there enough of them to create sustained success.

I like the three players you mentioned. Second exit question: is bringing in three sort of good players every two years enough to create sustained success in a league where other programs are bringing in very good players every year? Or is it a recipe for sixth place and an NCAA tournament every once a while and if it is, why'd they fire the other guys? Anyone can beat DePaul. Even Norm did that.

first question: I’m not sure yet, but I think Champagnie and Alexander are better than sort of good. As I said earlier, our jucos aren’t ready for the BE yet. DePaul doesn’t count.

CMA did well with freshman but not with grad transfers and jucos. Let’s see how he fills out the rest of the roster.

There were exciting moments during both Lavin and Mullin’s time here, but what both of them had in common was that the team was never playing their best in March. That’s why I’m ok with moving on from them. It’s not an easy job, and the coach and staff have to want to do all of it. Even if it means chasing after high school kids. That’s the job.

You left out Justin Burrell. Shoulda gone to Pitt. Cuffe did not have a nice senior year. In fact, that was our worst season in program history. Not city kids, but it wasn’t a good look that McCloud and Ingram both bombed here. Obekpa and Yakwe were disappointments overall. Both regressed after coming here. Balamou never learned how to play.

Sort of good

Like I said before the season 6-10 wins in conference this year and a winning record again. Looks like I'm right on track.

Next season I expect a ticket to the dance, nothing less.

Like I said before the season 6-10 wins in conference this year and a winning record again. Looks like I'm right on track.

Next season I expect a ticket to the dance, nothing less.

Between 6-10 wins really gives you some room for error..

Between 6-10 wins really gives you some room for error..

Room for error or not, it's progress in Year 2.

From last night, Posh took control of this game. He was tremendous. We exploited DePaul’s lousy guard play.

Granted, it’s DePaul, but I really like how fast we were moving the ball. Vince Cole for all of his athletic shortcomings, is improving in other areas. He’s a much better passer lately, and last night he didn’t freeze with the ball.

Wusu is still a bull in a China closet, but I’m excited to see how much he can improve. As it stands now, he’s a solid reserve.

What concerns me is Earlington and Roberts. They are both talented, but I’m baffled by the decisions they make as juniors.

I’m sure Mullin and staff told them plenty, and I’m sure Anderson and staff told them plenty of the same stuff, and they just aren’t listening.

Reminds me of Zendon. Everyone blamed Mahoney for his inability to pass, and no one considered that the kid just wouldn’t pass.

In terms of evaluating the staff, most of the kids seem to be improving. Whether it’s your recruit or not, you still gotta coach em up, and it seems like they’re trying. Greg Williams has improved, but he’s really the only of Mullin’s kids where we can point to clear improvement. Earlington and Roberts will both have games where they look like future pros, and they’ll follow it up what Earlington did last night-I don’t understand a junior dribbling into traffic like it’s not even there over and over again. WTF? If it doesn’t work against DePaul, it’s not gonna work against anyone’s d. Let’s hope coach can somehow make that clear to Earlington.

Aside from the kids Fran brought it, we’ve had a lousy history of developing local talent.

Post 1992: How many recruits can look back at St.John’s and say it was the right choice for their career?

Champ - improved
Posh - improved
Wusu - improved

We look like we may be a good idea for local talent for the first time in a long time.

Obviously, we have to finish the season with a lot more than we’ve shown, but I’m seeing clear progress with those three guys.

For Wusu, if he can give us 7-10 off the bench the rest of the way, I’m encouraged.

Why are you so quick to heap development praise? How can freshmen improve in 15 games beyond what is naturally expected? Wusu and Posh will be up and down all year. That’s what freshmen do.

Posh had 16 and 7 with 5 steals and shot 62.5% from the field his very first game. In his third ever game, against BC of the ACC, he had 18, 5, and 4.

first question: I’m not sure yet, but I think Champagnie and Alexander are better than sort of good. As I said earlier, our jucos aren’t ready for the BE yet. DePaul doesn’t count.

CMA did well with freshman but not with grad transfers and jucos. Let’s see how he fills out the rest of the roster.

There were exciting moments during both Lavin and Mullin’s time here, but what both of them had in common was that the team was never playing their best in March. That’s why I’m ok with moving on from them. It’s not an easy job, and the coach and staff have to want to do all of it. Even if it means chasing after high school kids. That’s the job.

You left out Justin Burrell. Shoulda gone to Pitt. Cuffe did not have a nice senior year. In fact, that was our worst season in program history. Not city kids, but it wasn’t a good look that McCloud and Ingram both bombed here. Obekpa and Yakwe were disappointments overall. Both regressed after coming here. Balamou never learned how to play.

By sort of good I meant three star, outside of the top-100 recruits. It wasn't a diss. Champagnie has been tremendous. Alexander is good enough that I wonder why he didn't end up at Providence or Seton Hall. Hsusu has a man's body and skills that can he honed and he's going to be a beast when he's a senior, if not before. My question remains whether finding under the radar kids is a sustainable model. That's how Norm recruited, but he did it because he had to. My impression of Anderson is that he thinks system trumps personnel. Almost nobody else thinks that and the people who've played the game that way - Pete Carill for example, who was a certifiable genius, which Anderson is not - had no choice. To the contrary, a key part of most everyone's system is recruiting the best players available. I guess we'll see if it works here, but: if Anderson's model produces a couple of NCAA tournament wins a decade - which is what it's produced over most of his career - is that good enough? It was not at Arkansas. At St John's it might be.

PS Cuffe averaged 12 and 7 as a senior and my memory of him (besides that he stayed home when everyone else went to the strip club) is that he showed a toughness his senior year that was lacking before that. I did not like him for three years. He was in your words, soft. He was not soft as a senior, especially considering the team was regularly getting its brains kicked in.

Like I said before the season 6-10 wins in conference this year and a winning record again. Looks like I'm right on track.

Next season I expect a ticket to the dance, nothing less.

You were panicking two weeks ago looking to move on😂

So marginal improvement year to year is okay now with Anderson but wasn’t with Mullin?

As a reminder, Mullin improved his win totals each year from 8 > 14 > 16 > 21 (and an NCAA tournament berth) and you wanted him canned.