Sports Illustrated Article - The Fall of St. John's by Seth Davis

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/the_bonus/11/19/stjohns/index.html


it is very refreshing to finally see more and more media outlets shine light on the fact that Norm is in trouble, and more importantly, the reputation of the program is in trouble...

interesting re: stipend

Though St. John's is still commonly referred to as a "commuter school," this year more than 3,000 of the 15,000-plus undergraduates are living on campus. The new housing has enabled the university to attract students from all over the world, yet many aficionados of St. John's basketball will tell you that the construction of these dorms has damaged the hoops program in a fundamental way.

Here's why: NCAA rules permit schools to give their scholarship athletes a cash stipend to cover living expenses. If a school doesn't have dormitories, the amount of the stipend is calculated according to the cost of living in that school's neighborhood. Best of all, the NCAA allows schools to dispense the full amount regardless of what an athlete's actual living expenses are. That means a local player attending St. John's could either live at home and pocket the entire amount of the stipend, or he could bunk up with several of his teammates, pay well under the stipend amount in rent, and pocket the difference. For decades, this was St. Johns's dirty little secret -- only it wasn't really dirty because it was fully sanctioned by the NCAA.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/the_bonus/11/19/stjohns/index.html


it is very refreshing to finally see more and more media outlets shine light on the fact that Norm is in trouble, and more importantly, the reputation of the program is in trouble...

Excellent overview

interesting re: stipend

Though St. John's is still commonly referred to as a "commuter school," this year more than 3,000 of the 15,000-plus undergraduates are living on campus. The new housing has enabled the university to attract students from all over the world, yet many aficionados of St. John's basketball will tell you that the construction of these dorms has damaged the hoops program in a fundamental way.

Here's why: NCAA rules permit schools to give their scholarship athletes a cash stipend to cover living expenses. If a school doesn't have dormitories, the amount of the stipend is calculated according to the cost of living in that school's neighborhood. Best of all, the NCAA allows schools to dispense the full amount regardless of what an athlete's actual living expenses are. That means a local player attending St. John's could either live at home and pocket the entire amount of the stipend, or he could bunk up with several of his teammates, pay well under the stipend amount in rent, and pocket the difference. For decades, this was St. Johns's dirty little secret -- only it wasn't really dirty because it was fully sanctioned by the NCAA.

Old news and I think Newsie or Bobre or both and more have agreed with my conjecture for years that the loss of the stipend has as much to do with the downfall of the program as some of the coaching hires.

Only thing I learned in this article is that even if the school didn't now insist that hoops players live in the dorms for 1 (or more I'm not sure) years the amount of the stipend would be now based upon dorm fees and on campus board rates not the going rate for a 1BR apartment in the area around STJ and the cost of local groceries.  However room and board in a standard double is still over $12K per year, room only is still $7,600.  If they let kids live at home and offerend them $7,600 per year to $12K per year to do so Norm might not be recruiting like Pitino but he'd be doing just about as well as Louie did.  I'll tell you that.

Also from what I understand the 3000 dorm rooms do not preclude them from offering the stipend as they still house a low enough percentage of the total student population to qualify as a "semi-commuter" school by NCAA standards.

I first heard about the stipends in sports management class last year and that explained a lot imo. Guess we could have always been like this...

I should appreciate Norm's steadfast decision not to go "down and dirty." But, the truth is, I don't. It doesn't matter to me if the kids go to class as long as they win. I'm sure that isn't a popular opinion but imo it's the only one that will do us any good as a bball program. A successful major program doesn't have kids that are worried about their grades imo (and yes I realize I sound pretty uneducated myself saying this) it has kids that want to better themselves as basketball players and win games and make the NBA. I wonder how far off base I am here honestly because it does look a little weird written out but it's how I feel.

(This stems from having a class w/ Evans last year which he never came to and being a step away from all out rage when finding out Norm got a contract renewal because [among other reasons, none of which I've ever been able to figure out] the players were finally going to class. Maybe that's more on Evans than Norm but I do know I have classes now with Sky Lindsay from the girls' team and the team manager or whoever it is comes to make sure she is there everyday. No one ever came looking for Evans. {Sorry to keep rambling lol but I should say I see Burrell, Boothe, Coker and TJ in class pretty often so like I said maybe it was more Evans' fault than Norm's})

As rotten a sentiment as it may be, five years down the line I'm not really gonna be worrying or wondering about someone like Geno Lawrence. I rooted for him for four long long years and what did he get me, 50 wins? I won't exactly lose sleep wondering what he made of himself, whether or not he went to class. However, someone like Hatten who won games for me is a player I continued to follow (from Bucks rookie camp, to Clippers training camp [cut on the last day, I found out when I got back from Gm 6 of 03 WS and it killed me], to Poland, to Nuggets training camp, to Israel, etc, etc.) No homo or stalker lol but that was my boy and while I was younger and that might have been a littttttle overboard lol I wasn't nearly as worried about Omar Cook over the same time period because Hatten won and he didn't.

So all this (likely incoherent) rambling leads me back to why we need to fire Norm lol, at least from my POV. I, as it's pretty clear, could give a rat's ass if they go to class or if they have the highest team GPA ever (which though I may be an overachiever was a lot lower than mine and thus didn't impress me at all). The only thing I care about with regards to SJU basketball is "are they winning?" And ever since Norm got here, the answer has been no. To be fair, he got into a terrible situation and I am sure that's why he's still here. But no excuses anymore IMO these are his guys and he still isn't winning (yes I know we are 5-1 now but if anyone is holding out a lot of hope for the Big East schedule I think you're crazy).

(I got a little carried away here so you'll probably want to skip down to the next set of lines and then just read the one paragraph above that. I'm leaving it all here to make my point though.)
---

For the first time, I haven't been to a game yet this year and I haven't even felt bad about it. Maybe some of you remember a ridiculous post I made after the Rainbow classic last year detailing how I never missed a game. It was all true from when I was like 3 till last year. I remember being devastated at losing to UC Irvine in the last ever Lapchick Tournament. I remember waiting and waiting for Lopez and Hamilton to make it to the tournament and when they finally got there, being so disappointed that they lost the first game to Detroit Mercy. I remember staying up late to watch us beat Samford and demolish Indiana in 1999. I remember handling Maryland and pretty much shaking in excitement when Ohio State beat Auburn because I knew "hey, we got this." I remember Ken Johnson having the game of his life for OSU and Chudney Gray missing free throws and the last possession when I was convinced Scoonie Penn shoved Barkley out of bounds ending our season. I've still never been able to look at a replay but even though I finally believe Barkley dribbled it off his foot I still have an unbelievable hatred of Ohio State (and to be honest the rest of the state in general for other instances).

I remember playing OSU at the Garden the next year and blowing a 10 point lead in like the last 90 seconds and wishing horrible horrible things would happen to that f'ing school lol. I remember seeing our #2 seed come up on Selection Sunday in 2000 and looking the bracket over and really believing that we could make up for the year before. I remember ripping up pretty much everything in the house that said St. John's on it after we lost to Gonzaga in the second round. I want to forget the next season lol. I remember watching the first game in 2001-02 season on TV (imagine that!) against Stony Brook and being convinced Hatten sucked. I remember him taking over the world for the rest of the next two years and until somehow we win a championship he will remain my favorite player ever for it. I remember one of his few bad games coming in a loss to Manhattan in the Holiday Festival and losing it in anger denting a sign at the Garden. I remember being convinced our season was dead going into play Duke at 12-12 and then losing by double digits late in the second half. I remember going on a completely improbable run (Anthony Glover (!) hit a huge three to keep us in it) and tying the game. I remember Hatten stealing it from Daniel Ewing and for the only time I can ever remember (as a lifelong SJU and NYR fan) hearing the sold out (wow, imagine that again!) Garden absolutely silent as Hatten drained the free throw. I remember cheering my lungs out to the point where I couldn't talk the next day and the no joke crying Duke fans in front of me (not douchebag types either, but quiet seemingly nice people) were just asking me to shut up already as the Garden was slow and too excited to file out. I remember being in 8th grade in a class full of people who couldn't care less about college basketball and happily bragging and even being congratulated on our now meaningless NIT championship.

I remember it all falling down after that lol. I remember rapidly hating Jarvis (looking back on it, I'm not even sure how that happened so fast) and embarassing myself by screaming happily when I brought up espn.com on the last day before winter break for high school to see "Storm Clouds: St. John's fires Jarvis" as one of the headlines. I remember the worst season we could have ever gone through and the lowest of low points in Pittsburgh. Even as I have made clear how little I care about this team, I've never (and never will be again) been so disappointed in the team. But even then, I kept coming back and beating Georgetown with half a team to get that one Big East win was surprisingly gratifying. I remember talking myself into a coach who had a 21-82 record at D2 Queens College because, "hey, he can recruit NY." I remember coming back excitedly for a new era only to see Ced who couldn't shoot and Geno who couldn't lead. I remember having some measure of excitement about the team until I opened the newspaper to find out we kicked Epperson (one of our only decent players) off for a transcript problem before we played #19 NC State. I remember thinking the season was over until we held NC State to 10 points in the first half and won easily and I never stopped going. I remember a lot of times for Norm when things looked bleak and he pulled some upset out of his ass to keep me coming, like when we beat undefeated Pitt and then I think Louisville in the same week, or even ND last season. I remember the pain of losing to St. Francis as we rededicated the arena for Louie and the pain of watching Calhoun play a great game to fill in for an injured Hamilton against Providence and being excited at the prospect of watching him work with Burrell next season (which was last season obviously) only to have him be yet another transfer under Norm [I stopped counting somewhere down the line but I think he was up to 11 after Cav and Larry left]. I remember having Senior Basketball in Fitzgerald Gym at Queens College where Norm's number is retired and being full of anger about what happened to my basketball team every time I happened to look up there.

Finally (out of chronological order and only because this is getting WAY out of hand lol), I remember playing undefeated #9 BC in their last visit to CA in the Big East on a day that coincided with an epic snowstorm which rendered us unable to drive to the game. I remember putting like six layers on and walking two miles in a blizzard to see Norm not start Daryl Hill and, though we put up a good fight, eventually lose. I remember the Boston fans in my section (I hate Boston and may or may not have been talking shit when we were ahead early) following me out and throwing snowballs at me. I remember for once not being an idiot and walking away, happy that we at least put up a good fight.

-----------------------------------------

For anyone reading this who doesn't want to wade through all my bullshit, just go read the paragraph above this one and know that the rest of them are just like that. I once, very recently, cared THAT much about this team, a truly inordinate amount. When they announced Norm's extension last season, I finally made the decision to not get season tickets this season, and I can't say I miss them. Maybe I was a little out of control (okay, not maybe) and I still check up here to see how we're doing but it finally doesn't matter to me. Which, on one hand is a relief since obviously I cared a little too much, but on the other hand is sad since I wonder how come I was able to stop caring. I finally decided that if the administration is happy with a coach who shows absolutely no signs of not being a loser, then I can spend time and energy caring about what happens again.

This is with one obvious caveat: despite being pretty engrossed in the game, I'm no expert. Norm has ONE last chance to prove me wrong. If I'm coming to games next year, we either have Lance on the court or a new coach on the sideline (or, ideally, both). If Norm can get Lance to come here (even though I think that decision will come regardless of Norm or, if Lance goes elsewhere, because of Norm; that's right, I give no credit lol), I'll finally cut him some slack. But that is his last chance with me. If Lance is anywhere else in the world playing basketball next year, Norm absolutely positively HAS to go. Hopefully he will prove me wrong, but that's about all I have to hope for with this team now.

BTW, I saved that over to Word so I wouldn't have to type it again if anything happened and it's over three pages in single space, standard fonts and margins lol. So obviously I still care a little bit...but until Norm is gone (or Lance is here) "a little" is all the caring they will get from me.

I'm going to save this for a rainy day. I was definitely intimidated by that long and lengthy post

Quote from: NYCbuckeye on November 25, 2008, 02:31:39 PM

interesting re: stipend

Though St. John's is still commonly referred to as a "commuter school," this year more than 3,000 of the 15,000-plus undergraduates are living on campus. The new housing has enabled the university to attract students from all over the world, yet many aficionados of St. John's basketball will tell you that the construction of these dorms has damaged the hoops program in a fundamental way.

Here's why: NCAA rules permit schools to give their scholarship athletes a cash stipend to cover living expenses. If a school doesn't have dormitories, the amount of the stipend is calculated according to the cost of living in that school's neighborhood. Best of all, the NCAA allows schools to dispense the full amount regardless of what an athlete's actual living expenses are. That means a local player attending St. John's could either live at home and pocket the entire amount of the stipend, or he could bunk up with several of his teammates, pay well under the stipend amount in rent, and pocket the difference. For decades, this was St. Johns's dirty little secret -- only it wasn't really dirty because it was fully sanctioned by the NCAA.

Old news and I think Newsie or Bobre or both and more have agreed with my conjecture for years that the loss of the stipend has as much to do with the downfall of the program as some of the coaching hires.

Only thing I learned in this article is that even if the school didn't now insist that hoops players live in the dorms for 1 (or more I'm not sure) years the amount of the stipend would be now based upon dorm fees and on campus board rates not the going rate for a 1BR apartment in the area around STJ and the cost of local groceries.  However room and board in a standard double is still over $12K per year, room only is still $7,600.  If they let kids live at home and offerend them $7,600 per year to $12K per year to do so Norm might not be recruiting like Pitino but he'd be doing just about as well as Louie did.  I'll tell you that.

Also from what I understand the 3000 dorm rooms do not preclude them from offering the stipend as they still house a low enough percentage of the total student population to qualify as a "semi-commuter" school by NCAA standards.

You are right about that.  Just because we have dorms, doesn't mean we cannot have the stipend.  It is based on a %.  We are stil below that.  During the Jarvis years the stipend was there--although first year players had to dorm.  Norm was quoted as saying that he wanted to get all players living on campus when he frist took over.  

The stipend was the single biggest recruiting tool we had. We NEED to bring it back.  The longer we go without it, the harder it will be to get it back.

yankcranker is right...we've been going back and forth over the stipend for years.  we should be using it where we can.

it won't make roberts a better coach, however.

yankcranker is right...we've been going back and forth over the stipend for years.  we should be using it where we can.

it won't make roberts a better coach, however.

Some All Americans would

The best deal I ever saw was St. John's football players getting stipends even after the program was finished they retained their scholarships and stipends.

Also this article was great, very in depth and I thought it was very well written. I thought there was some really interesting quotes in there as well.

Very, very well written article.  I know Seth well and he and I go back and forth on the state of the program all the time.  He really did his homework here and did a great job looking at the big picture and he certainly did his homework.

The best deal I ever saw was St. John's football players getting stipends even after the program was finished they retained their scholarships and stipends.

Nobody got stipends when I was there and I was on the football team

Quote from: Dave on November 26, 2008, 12:19:59 AM

The best deal I ever saw was St. John's football players getting stipends even after the program was finished they retained their scholarships and stipends.

Nobody got stipends when I was there and I was on the football team

I worked for the soccer team, I had to go up and get their checks all the way up top in CA, and football players along with swimmers would come up and pick up their checks. So I asked the lady at the desk, I forget her name but she was a nazi if you tried to blow by her desk, and she told me they still get paid because it wasn't their fault the program got cut.

Quote from: Dave on November 26, 2008, 12:19:59 AM

The best deal I ever saw was St. John's football players getting stipends even after the program was finished they retained their scholarships and stipends.

Nobody got stipends when I was there and I was on the football team

Maybe they only paid the good players?

Obviously, this article was written before the Loyola game.

Quote from: Marillac on November 26, 2008, 01:42:39 AM

Quote from: Dave on November 26, 2008, 12:19:59 AM

The best deal I ever saw was St. John's football players getting stipends even after the program was finished they retained their scholarships and stipends.

Nobody got stipends when I was there and I was on the football team

Maybe they only paid the good players?

HAHAHA tell me that is from "Lucas." !!1

Quote from: Marco Baldi on November 26, 2008, 02:34:39 PM

Quote from: Marillac on November 26, 2008, 01:42:39 AM

Quote from: Dave on November 26, 2008, 12:19:59 AM

The best deal I ever saw was St. John's football players getting stipends even after the program was finished they retained their scholarships and stipends.

Nobody got stipends when I was there and I was on the football team

Maybe they only paid the good players?

HAHAHA tell me that is from "Lucas." !!1

For sure