Lance, Norm, and Poor St Johns fans..

Jumpinjohny..Norm has gotten a verbal from a PG...his name is malik stith (spelled his last name wrong)...He's a PG currently at Bridgeton Academy in Maine. Bridgeton plays in NEPSAC class A, which is arguably THE most competive league in highschool basketball. Bridgeton just won the championship in their league about a week or two ago...Once again though its just a verbal commitment, Malik hasnt signed anything yet.

Have you realized that Stith is NO LONGER a verbal committment to St. John's?  It's been that way for a handful of months now.

Okay!  Back to the regular schedule..... 

PMG911...I dont know how you can say Norm has done a "horrendous" job recuiting. He's done an excellent job. you have to keep in mind St Johns had a 2 year ban on any post season play. What type of player wants to come play at school like that. Aside from that he got Mason Jr. Burrell( Who was ranked as the best post-grad in America in his class by scout.com) he got Horne and Kennedy who averaged in the double digits in the Big East this season. I dont care what anyone says, if you can average double digit points in the Big East, that means you can ball. Next year hes gotten Omari Lawrence, who might not be an immidiate "savior" to the program but he will be a strong contributor. Same with Dwight Hardy who like i mentioned earlier, he single handly took the PSAL championship at the garden. and if malik(whos already given his verbal) comes through theres even more depth at the guard play behind boothe(who was an other solid commitment Norm secured). Hes gotten VERY good players for the situation he was in...and hes gotten even better players for next season.

He screwed up recruting from day 1 one here and this is a fact, not fiction. If he had hired a local coach from Day 1 he wouldn't have had the issues getting local kids that he has had.

He has failed to sign a single elite level recruit since he became caoch.

Justin Burrell was NOT an elite level recruit and PLEASE tell me who Norm fended off for his services, don't forget, JB signed while still at OSL...

Mason JR - come on..  seriously, what has the kid done. He is from Tennesse and neither University of Tennesse or Memphis even offered the kid....

Kids come play for the COACH, Norm was supposed to be a CLOSER on the recruiting trail. I have said multiple times on multiple threads on multiple sites.. Norm Roberts has failed to land every top recruiting target in his time at St. John's and please don't tell me that Mason Jr & JB were his top targets in their classes, they were not.

what Malik are you talking about, because if you mean Stith, you have lost all credibility as poster. He said months ago he was not coming here.

He has very solid players for next season, no doubt, but I wonder who is going to get all those mintues that need to be divided up. If he signs Lance, he will have  7 - 8 guys vying for minutes in similar slots and two of them will be flat out ball hog chuckers (AMJr  & LS)...   who gets them. . the JUCO star off guard Dwight Hardy, this years best player Paris Horne, maybe the 5th year senior Anthony Mason Jr., Quincy Roberts, Ty Ed, star frosh Omari...  oh yeah. . lets not forget about the All American off guard Lance Stephenson who will command 30 minutes a night and can only be effective dominating the ball. Quality reoster balance and quality management of scholarships..    FANTASTIC recuitng, not good recruiting FANTASTIC...

Also, lets not forget about the fact that next year the team will enter another season with out a good point guard, we have NO back up and the starter is not up to the task in the league. Seriously, a Div I team with one legitimate point guard on the roster...   how does that happen...

B BALL - I have no clue who you are but take off the rose colored glasses, step back and look at the program as a basketball fan..      ITS A DISASTER..!!!

Jumpinjohny..Norm has gotten a verbal from a PG...his name is malik stith (spelled his last name wrong)...He's a PG currently at Bridgeton Academy in Maine. Bridgeton plays in NEPSAC class A, which is arguably THE most competive league in highschool basketball. Bridgeton just won the championship in their league about a week or two ago...Once again though its just a verbal commitment, Malik hasnt signed anything yet.

You were bombarded ...nice of you to respond to everyone...but after this response I know your just messing with everyone.

Stith backed out of his verbal.  Said St. John's couldn't win to a newspaper and was quoted.  He's supposedly just like Boothe...so what good woud he be anyway.

BTW 5 years is a long time...its an eternity to a college coach.

This team has noone that can consistently create their own shot.  Coach needs Lance bad.  Hopefully Lance sees the opportunity here.

Poison...there are clauses in the LOIs that can release players if there is a coaching change...thats why all the Indiana recruits left after Sampson got fired, including Devin Ebanks who went to WV...If Norm were to get fired a lot of players would transfer

Kob24...im just posting what i heard from those two...thats all

There is abolutely NO clause in the standard LOI that allows a player to leave if the coach gets fired before he gets to the school.

In the last few years some players have asked for and granted special stipulations (Devin Ebanks) but its not standard.

Quote from: bball_fan on March 12, 2009, 03:40:37 PM

Poison...there are clauses in the LOIs that can release players if there is a coaching change...thats why all the Indiana recruits left after Sampson got fired, including Devin Ebanks who went to WV...If Norm were to get fired a lot of players would transfer

Kob24...im just posting what i heard from those two...thats all

There is abolutely NO clause in the standard LOI that allows a player to leave if the coach gets fired before he gets to the school.

In the last few years some players have asked for and granted special stipulations (Devin Ebanks) but its not standard.

Some schools(not all) have added a clause in recent years.  Not sure if its player specific either or all players get it.  Most likely player specific.

Quote from: bball_fan on March 12, 2009, 03:40:37 PM

Poison...there are clauses in the LOIs that can release players if there is a coaching change...thats why all the Indiana recruits left after Sampson got fired, including Devin Ebanks who went to WV...If Norm were to get fired a lot of players would transfer

Kob24...im just posting what i heard from those two...thats all

There is abolutely NO clause in the standard LOI that allows a player to leave if the coach gets fired before he gets to the school.

In the last few years some players have asked for and granted special stipulations (Devin Ebanks) but its not standard.

exactly, a LOI is a contract. if the coach leaves, tfb.

ok my bad with the stith comment...just havent been keeping track of him like that..

not all LOI's have contract but they can be added in if the University and player agrees upon it. Considering the uncertainty of Norm's job, the new recuits most definitaly added in a clause to release them in case of a coaching change. Omari chose St Johns over Uconn, Pitt, Georgetown, Memphis, WV, Xavier,Louisville...and the list goes on and on. Thats for those of you who say Norm does a bad job recruiting, look who he went up against and he still got the commitment. anyways the point is if Norm was to fired, Omari would be released from his LOI because there IS a clause in there.

PMG..first of all its not garentted that Lance is coming here..like i said before even if he does he'll do more harm then good, hes not your "savior." Omari and Dwight arent going to get burn like that, just ment to be sparks off the bench...and by the way in order for St Johns to bring in Lance they would have to cut a scholarship...most likely Ty's. im tired of people saying Mason hasn't done much. HE MADE ALL BIG EAST. When hes healthy hes a game changer.

peter..how would you fire norm but keep other coaches responsible for recruiting? when i coaching change takes place the new head coach brings in all of his own personel..Norms main recruiting guy, coach Fred Quaterbalm (i probably spelled his name wrong), has already gotten multiple head coaching offers and has chosen to stay with norm at st johns out of loyalty. so your scenerio is most likely not possibe.

First, I would like to say welcome to the board.  and by no means should you take the passionate conversation of frustrated fans as a reason to not post - healthy (sometimes angry as hell) debate is always welcomed.

as for your response to my post: I am not saying that I would want the recruiting staff here.  But for many of the "Norm is making progress" arguments I have heard, the progress is in the inroads he has made with the AAU guys/ the local talent.

If the fear is that by firing him, they lose the pipelines that haven't yet paid off, then the answer is that they can keep part of the staff for continuity.  That would not be my solution, but it is a solution.  Kimani's got connects to Collier and Pinkston, and his name supposedly gets St. John's on their list, so by keeping him... they'd still be on the list.  et cetera.  It's not at all unheard of.  Though you are correct, most coaches want to bring in all their own guys.

What do you think the effect would be of a whole new staff?  I think a new guy can either build a staff with NY connections (again, Oz Cross and Kimani are new to the staff, they might just stay on), hire a head coach with NY contacts on staff, or just get a hardworker (who can coach a winning ballclub) to rebuild those connections now that St. John's name isn't mud. 

and PMG knows Lance isn't a sure thing.  PMG also doesn't think he will necessarily qualify.

newsman i have no idea what your not about. THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY TO COMPARE 1957 TO 2009. ITS IMPOSSIBLE. As for Cleveland St, they going to the tourny because they won theyre conference which a weak conference, no way to compare it to the big east. And when you tell players to "pack their bags." Do you really think thats going to help improve your program? You'll be taking two steps backwards.

i hated when my elders did this to me back in the day...but here i am...an elder.

in 1957 people had jobs...they raised families..they got laid...they watched sports...they sat in front of the t-v, they went to bars...etc.  OK...maybe etta james sang "at last" instead of beyonce and maybe bill russell was on his way to winning 13 rings instead of michael a few years ago. right...and computers were the size of living rooms back then.
i was around in 1957 and i'm obviously around now.  there are MANY things you can compare basketballwise.  the ball still went in the hoop. scandals killed some programs.  CCNY, Brooklyn College, LIU and NYU were national players at one time, believe it or not.  big time.  as you know, CCNY won the nit and the ncaa championship in the same year.  they're gone.  kentucky had two of the top players in the country get caught shaving points.  we had two players who got caught.  both programs moved on and continued to win.

my point is in 1957 as in 2009, some people who run basketball programs have the balls not to make excuses.  they find ways to win.  the losers not only make excuses...they depend on posters who also have no balls blaming the demise of st john's basketball on some guys getting trim in pittsburgh.  the time for excuses is over.  it's time to flush the excuse making losers down the toilet (which many homes had indoors in 1957.)

as far as cleveland state...they won four games four years ago.  now they're in the tournament.  they knew what they had to do to get there.  we have a "braintrust" that's clueless.  if we can't handle the big east..then maybe we should get kicked into cleveland state's conference.  norm has proven over and over and over again that he can't compete in the big east.  he doesn't have the basketball intellect.  he's proven it over and over again.  it's time to move on.

as far as players threatening to leave if norm isn't retained...i'll stand by my original statement.  a competent new coach can take this team to a real tournament next year...not one we have to pay to enter.  it absolutely disgusts me that we would even consider going to one of them.  if these players don't think they're good enough to play for a real coach in a real league...then maybe they can move to a lower level school.  i don't know lance stephenson...but my guess is he'd much rather play for a coach who'll open the door to million dollar contracts than someone who'll make him a shoe shine boy in six years. 

we need that coach here...NOW.  and it's not norm by a long shot.

No your point was there was scandel in 1957 and they bounced back but why cant they do it in modern time..that was your point. the answer to that is that although the Xs and Os of the game maybe be similiar, many things have changed. Especially basketball recruiting, the world of recruiting is completely different now, almost cutthroat...thats why your comparison was a horrible one.

talking about coaches....there is no available coach in America that will be able to take St Johns to the tourny next year....you make it sound so easy "get a new coach and go to the tourny"...it doesnt work like that...

and talking about Lance...Lance will get multimillion dollar contracts regardless of where he goes to college...regardless of where he goes hes only going to be there one year....so what are you saying man?

Oops my bad your right. he was coach at Queens College. Either way you cant compare his situation at queens college to where hes at now. Unless you can name the conference he was in, the other teams in his league, the players he was working with, and the other strong players in his league then you cant make that comparison, its unfair. There is so much to factor into how well a D1 NCAA team plays, people need to realize that before they are ready to chop off Norms head.

I don't understand you.  You like to make excuses.  Norm doing horribly at Queens College and doing horribly at STJ is the same as a nice person failing out of community college, somehow getting into Haravard, and then failing there.

You can be a bad CYO coach--which I'm sure Norm would be able to manage--it doesn't matter.  Failure is failure and success is succes.

Look at Beilein.  The guy coached at JUCO, then D-3, then D-2, then D-1 low major, then D-1 high major.  He enjoyed success at every school he coached at.  His past results indicate that he should be successful in the future.  Norm has NOTHING in his past suggesting he'll be successful.  In fact, everything suggests he will not be successful.

College basketball is the fastest sport to turn around.  Norm inherited a soph Lamont Hamilton and a soph Daryll Hill.  It's not like he had absolutely nothing. 

i'd only fire norm if STJ is committed to getting a big name coach.  if we are going to fire norm for pecora it's a lateral move.

I don't agree.  I think there are probably only 25-50 coaches in the country as bad as Norm Roberts.  I would jump for joy if we had Pecora in here.

Roberts is THAT bad.

No your point was there was scandel in 1957 and they bounced back but why cant they do it in modern time..that was your point. the answer to that is that although the Xs and Os of the game maybe be similiar, many things have changed. Especially basketball recruiting, the world of recruiting is completely different now, almost cutthroat...thats why your comparison was a horrible one.

talking about coaches....there is no available coach in America that will be able to take St Johns to the tourny next year....you make it sound so easy "get a new coach and go to the tourny"...it doesnt work like that...

and talking about Lance...Lance will get multimillion dollar contracts regardless of where he goes to college...regardless of where he goes hes only going to be there one year....so what are you saying man?

that was my point.  ohio state had to give up its final four appearance because it brought in paid players...and still managed to bring in greg oden.  baylor had one player murder another..and a coach who covered it up...and they beat kansas yesterday.  i could go on, but you really don't want to hear about it.

basketball recruiting was cutthroat in 1957.  it didn't have aau mobsters...but the pros were involved because of "territorial picks"...and high school coaches somehow managed to become college assistants.  read "foul" by connie hawkins.  he'll spell it out for you.   

you're really lost if you think there isn't a single coach in the country who can take us to a tournament next year.  i guess you think monasch is an out and out liar when he says we'll go to the ncaa's next year...and that's with that nice person norm.  i'm sure if calipari came here and took us to a sweet 16, you'd say he did it with norm's players.

maybe lance will get a multimillion dollar contract after a year at st john's and maybe he won't.  ask burrell.

Ohio state didnt have a ban on the postseason...that comparison is therefore irrelavant.

Obviously they could recruit players like that in 1957....ask any basketball coach in America and they will garentee to you that you cannot compare bball recruiting in 1957 to 2009....that comparision is therefore irrelevant.

I didnt say all coaches in america...i said "available" coaches...calipari and other coaches of that nature wont leave their jobs. (calipari by the way is one of the most currupt college coaches in America, i witnessed that first hand at Umass)...your point therefore is irrelevant.

Justin Burrell and Lance Stephenson are at two completely different levels of talent. People may have been in Justin's ear and told him he could be a one a done but that was never really possible. Lance can. Burrell never posted close to the numbers Lance did in hs. regardless of where Justin went to college...he could never have been a one and done...Lance on the other hand will only do one year regardless of what college he chooses...your point therefore is once again irrelevant...

stop making bad compariosons that have nothing to do with st johns current situation.

and marilliac....no one is making excuse, i know a lot of blame needs to be placed on Norm. But not all the blame he gets on message boards like this...he continues to make good progress out of a bad situation..he deserves an other season to prove himself because next season will be his best yet with the players he'll have. and by the way...talkin about darryl hill and lamont hamilton...two players is never enough to change a basketball team...unless one of them is Lebron

we didn't have a ban on the post season...that was self-imposed and we didn't have the record to get there, anyway.  of course, you don't want facts to get in the way of a good story.

basketball recruiting was dirty in 1957 and it's dirty now.  that's the comparison i'm making.  it's different dirty...but still dirty.  that's the recruiting i'm talking about.  what are you talking about?

available coaches?  how do you know who's available. 

and i've seen stephenson play several times and he's the real deal.  but he's 6'5" and he needs to learn to play the point.  i'd take my chances with burrell with his nba body as long as he had a coach who can take him to the next level.

couple of things Marquette vtech gtech and nova was schools that was courting burrell. He commited to st.johns when at osl and signed when he went to bridgeton where alot more schools came into the picture but that is another can of worms I don't wish to open. And no one ever thought he was a one and done player. That ludacris. I always thought he could have done three years and step but this year just f that up.

kob, keep JB away from any big man camps this summer.  He should work on his handle, work out with his teammates and learn to enjoy the game when he's on the floor.  He's a gifted athlete whose skills will continue to improve but he looks like he's thinking too much instead of just playing the game.  As a result, he is slow to react and becomes a bit mechanical when he gets the ball in the post.  Tell him to just have fun when he's on the court.

He needs handle for this offense