If I was the Coach I would press all game

We have and play 12 players. Our second team is not really worse then our 1st team. If I was coach I would press and trap all game. Norm is playing everyone anyway. Depth wont be an issue and we have some really athletic players.

This should have been decided in Nov.

Instead, everyone works really hard in practice,
and then they show up limp come gametime.

SJU used to play defense. Like 10 years ago.
Jarvis had his kids defending. The longer Norm is here
the more respect I have for Jarvis.

The devil you know.

We have and play 12 players. Our second team is not really worse then our 1st team. If I was coach I would press and trap all game. Norm is playing everyone anyway. Depth wont be an issue and we have some really athletic players.

It would be one thing if our guards were quick enough but we are playing against teams that are faster then we are, pressing them will not work to any advantage.

Quote from: TONYD3 on January 11, 2010, 09:48:07 PM

We have and play 12 players. Our second team is not really worse then our 1st team. If I was coach I would press and trap all game. Norm is playing everyone anyway. Depth wont be an issue and we have some really athletic players.

It would be one thing if our guards were quick enough but we are playing against teams that are faster then we are, pressing them will not work to any advantage.

You don't think our guards are quick enough? I disagree and I also have been an advocate of pressing full court more. All we do is have our PG defend the full length of the court which slows down their offensive flow but also wears our PG out

Quote from: pmg911 on January 12, 2010, 11:56:07 AM

Quote from: TONYD3 on January 11, 2010, 09:48:07 PM

We have and play 12 players. Our second team is not really worse then our 1st team. If I was coach I would press and trap all game. Norm is playing everyone anyway. Depth wont be an issue and we have some really athletic players.

It would be one thing if our guards were quick enough but we are playing against teams that are faster then we are, pressing them will not work to any advantage.

You don't think our guards are quick enough? I disagree and I also have been an advocate of pressing full court more. All we do is have our PG defend the full length of the court which slows down their offensive flow but also wears our PG out

Our gaurds are not quick enough to press all game...

Did you see any of Nova - L'ville game last night...   those type of guards can press all night, not the guys we have playing for St. John's.

Quote from: Dave on January 12, 2010, 12:03:55 PM

Quote from: pmg911 on January 12, 2010, 11:56:07 AM

Quote from: TONYD3 on January 11, 2010, 09:48:07 PM

We have and play 12 players. Our second team is not really worse then our 1st team. If I was coach I would press and trap all game. Norm is playing everyone anyway. Depth wont be an issue and we have some really athletic players.

It would be one thing if our guards were quick enough but we are playing against teams that are faster then we are, pressing them will not work to any advantage.

You don't think our guards are quick enough? I disagree and I also have been an advocate of pressing full court more. All we do is have our PG defend the full length of the court which slows down their offensive flow but also wears our PG out

Our gaurds are not quick enough to press all game...

Did you see any of Nova - L'ville game last night...   those type of guards can press all night, not the guys we have playing for St. John's.

I think you don't give our guys enough credit sometime. We have athletes and the bodies we need. Also you're telling me an Ivy league team can't run an effective press?

You don't think our guards are quick enough? I disagree and I also have been an advocate of pressing full court more. All we do is have our PG defend the full length of the court which slows down their offensive flow but also wears our PG out

The problem with this sort of one note solution - we should press full court, we should use the 2-3 zone, whatever - is that it presumes that we'd do the one note solution well, whereas the evidence is that we would do it as poorly as we do everything else. The fact is that not all our players are suited to playing 90 feet of pressure basketball. A good coach would figure out which players are and would use them thusly. So, for example, a unit that presses led by Horne, who plays great defense and excels in the open court, that uses maybe Coker as the center fielder. But do you want Evans playing in the open court? Burrell? Wouldn't Hardy be better off in a structured half court set? Not everyone does everything well. Bottom line, this team is not good enough to be one strategy away from success, whatever the strategy.

Quote from: Dave on January 12, 2010, 12:03:55 PM

You don't think our guards are quick enough? I disagree and I also have been an advocate of pressing full court more. All we do is have our PG defend the full length of the court which slows down their offensive flow but also wears our PG out

The problem with this sort of one note solution - we should press full court, we should use the 2-3 zone, whatever - is that it presumes that we'd do the one note solution well, whereas the evidence is that we would do it as poorly as we do everything else. The fact is that not all our players are suited to playing 90 feet of pressure basketball. A good coach would figure out which players are and would use them thusly. So, for example, a unit that presses led by Horne, who plays great defense and excels in the open court, that uses maybe Coker as the center fielder. But do you want Evans playing in the open court? Burrell? Wouldn't Hardy be better off in a structured half court set? Not everyone does everything well. Bottom line, this team is not good enough to be one strategy away from success, whatever the strategy.

Yes you're right however it would be great if we did run different looks at different points in the games based on our personnel.

I also agree with you that even if we did press who is to say we'd do it well? Even though I think IF we did this all offseason and in the out of conference games (that weren't televised to avoid scouting getting out) then we could run effective looks like this in conference play.

Quote from: Dave on January 12, 2010, 12:03:55 PM

You don't think our guards are quick enough? I disagree and I also have been an advocate of pressing full court more. All we do is have our PG defend the full length of the court which slows down their offensive flow but also wears our PG out

The problem with this sort of one note solution - we should press full court, we should use the 2-3 zone, whatever - is that it presumes that we'd do the one note solution well, whereas the evidence is that we would do it as poorly as we do everything else. The fact is that not all our players are suited to playing 90 feet of pressure basketball. A good coach would figure out which players are and would use them thusly. So, for example, a unit that presses led by Horne, who plays great defense and excels in the open court, that uses maybe Coker as the center fielder. But do you want Evans playing in the open court? Burrell? Wouldn't Hardy be better off in a structured half court set? Not everyone does everything well. Bottom line, this team is not good enough to be one strategy away from success, whatever the strategy.

This is spot on except for two minor points. I think Hardy and Burrell would benefit from playing a pressing game. Burrell can block shots and is athletic and playing in a pressing game Hardy would get a lot of open looks for threes on turnovers and such.
I do not think either Malik is suited for this style, but then again I am not sure what style they would be suited for.

Evans playing in a pressing situation would be great for pure comedic value though.

Quote from: Foad on January 12, 2010, 12:23:24 PM

Quote from: Dave on January 12, 2010, 12:03:55 PM

You don't think our guards are quick enough? I disagree and I also have been an advocate of pressing full court more. All we do is have our PG defend the full length of the court which slows down their offensive flow but also wears our PG out

The problem with this sort of one note solution - we should press full court, we should use the 2-3 zone, whatever - is that it presumes that we'd do the one note solution well, whereas the evidence is that we would do it as poorly as we do everything else. The fact is that not all our players are suited to playing 90 feet of pressure basketball. A good coach would figure out which players are and would use them thusly. So, for example, a unit that presses led by Horne, who plays great defense and excels in the open court, that uses maybe Coker as the center fielder. But do you want Evans playing in the open court? Burrell? Wouldn't Hardy be better off in a structured half court set? Not everyone does everything well. Bottom line, this team is not good enough to be one strategy away from success, whatever the strategy.

This is spot on except for two minor points. I think Hardy and Burrell would benefit from playing a pressing game. Burrell can block shots and is athletic and playing in a pressing game Hardy would get a lot of open looks for threes on turnovers and such.
I do not think either Malik is suited for this style, but then again I am not sure what style they would be suited for.

Evans playing in a pressing situation would be great for pure comdic value though.

I don't like Evans as a defender however one thing he does do well is jump passing lanes for steals. This is the reason he's put into so many coast to coast situations which make us all cringe.

This is spot on

You had me up to here.

except for two minor points. I think Hardy and Burrell would benefit from playing a pressing game. Burrell can block shots and is athletic and playing in a pressing game Hardy would get a lot of open looks for threes on turnovers and such.

Whatever hypothetical personnel solution you arrive at ultimately, the root problem remains: Norm, square peg, round hole. That is, if Hardy were my player, I'd run screens for him all day long; you might think he'd get more looks in the open floor. Either way we're trying to get him shots. But Norm has him penciled as an "energy guy," a phrase he uses all the time that I hate, and so getting him shots isn't a priority. Similarly Burrell might thrive in the open court, and he certainly could not be worse than he is down in the blocks, but Norm crams him down there because he's the four, and that's where the four goes in his nice personic dribble dribble variation on the dribble drive. You don't have  to be Jim Calhoun to figure out that Burrell setting picks for Malik is not a formula for success. But anyway it's just not one thing. If Norm's as incompetent as we think he is he must be doing many things awfully, it's not like he only needs  a tweak.

I do not think either Malik is suited for this style, but then again I am not sure what style they would be suited for.

Evans playing in a pressing situation would be great for pure comdic value though.

If you don't see how much better this team is with Boothe playing you're not paying attention. Evans was a point guard in HS, if he ever grows into his dribble he'll be a monster.

Have you seen our press?

The opponents guards start to giggle then they proceed to dribble right through it or pass over it with ease with the end result being a highlight reel dunk for the other team.

Quote from: pmg911 on January 12, 2010, 12:10:41 PM

Quote from: Dave on January 12, 2010, 12:03:55 PM

Quote from: pmg911 on January 12, 2010, 11:56:07 AM

Quote from: TONYD3 on January 11, 2010, 09:48:07 PM

We have and play 12 players. Our second team is not really worse then our 1st team. If I was coach I would press and trap all game. Norm is playing everyone anyway. Depth wont be an issue and we have some really athletic players.

It would be one thing if our guards were quick enough but we are playing against teams that are faster then we are, pressing them will not work to any advantage.

You don't think our guards are quick enough? I disagree and I also have been an advocate of pressing full court more. All we do is have our PG defend the full length of the court which slows down their offensive flow but also wears our PG out

Our gaurds are not quick enough to press all game...

Did you see any of Nova - L'ville game last night...   those type of guards can press all night, not the guys we have playing for St. John's.

I think you don't give our guys enough credit sometime. We have athletes and the bodies we need. Also you're telling me an Ivy league team can't run an effective press?

Not sure what this means..

If you you are saying Ivy League kids are slow..    then yes, their press will be less effective then quicker & faster players.

They is a big diffrence tween a press and a trapping press, so I aint sure what all y'all is referrin' to.

St. John put on a press. Hells, they pick they man up right away and quick. What it do? Much of nuthin.

St. John dont put on a trappin press 'less they is in desperation mode. Its always a gamble and y'all best think twice before you do it fo 40 'less you sure you got the horses cause thats mad taxin on the team.

But it work great if y'all mix it up. Throw it in here and there after a made basket and it can become mad disruptive.

But St. John dont do that.

Quote from: we are sju on January 12, 2010, 01:09:21 PM

This is spot on

You had me up to here.

Quote

except for two minor points. I think Hardy and Burrell would benefit from playing a pressing game. Burrell can block shots and is athletic and playing in a pressing game Hardy would get a lot of open looks for threes on turnovers and such.

Whatever hypothetical personnel solution you arrive at ultimately, the root problem remains: Norm, square peg, round hole. That is, if Hardy were my player, I'd run screens for him all day long; you might think he'd get more looks in the open floor. Either way we're trying to get him shots. But Norm has him penciled as an "energy guy," a phrase he uses all the time that I hate, and so getting him shots isn't a priority. Similarly Burrell might thrive in the open court, and he certainly could not be worse than he is down in the blocks, but Norm crams him down there because he's the four, and that's where the four goes in his nice personic dribble dribble variation on the dribble drive. You don't have  to be Jim Calhoun to figure out that Burrell setting picks for Malik is not a formula for success. But anyway it's just not one thing. If Norm's as incompetent as we think he is he must be doing many things awfully, it's not like he only needs  a tweak.

Quote

I do not think either Malik is suited for this style, but then again I am not sure what style they would be suited for.

Evans playing in a pressing situation would be great for pure comdic value though.

If you don't see how much better this team is with Boothe playing you're not paying attention. Evans was a point guard in HS, if he ever grows into his dribble he'll be a monster.

Teams that pressure the ball, then yes we need Boothe. The problem is once he gets the ball past half court he basically is not part of the offense. He mostly just stands there ignored. We have enough problems scoring without giving the other team a 4 on 5 power play on defense. The amazing thing about Boothe is not that he can't shoot it is his lack of passing skills. I know  we run the stand around the perimeter offenseand I know he is only 4-11, but Boothe can't penetrate and dish.
Defensively Boothe's man goes by him regularly. That has been the most shocking thing about his play. .

Teams that pressure the ball, then yes we need Boothe. The problem is once he gets the ball past half court he basically is not part of the offense. He mostly just stands there ignored. We have enough problems scoring without giving the other team a 4 on 5 power play on defense. The amazing thing about Boothe is not that he can't shoot it is his lack of passing skills. I know  we run the stand around the perimeter offenseand I know he is only 4-11, but Boothe can't penetrate and dish.
Defensively Boothe's man goes by him regularly. That has been the most shocking thing about his play. .

I didn't say anything about what Boothe does well or doesn't so well, whether he can shoot, whether he can't, how tall he is, how short he is, whether he can shoot free throws, whether he can penetrate, whether he plays defense, whether its 4 on 5 or 3 on 5 or 2 on 5 when he's in there. What I said was that if you don't see how much better the team plays when he's in the game, you are not paying attention. If the PU debacle and the second half of the UL didn't disabuse you of the Hardy plays the point theory, I don't know what to tell you.

Quote from: we are sju on January 12, 2010, 03:09:28 PM

Teams that pressure the ball, then yes we need Boothe. The problem is once he gets the ball past half court he basically is not part of the offense. He mostly just stands there ignored. We have enough problems scoring without giving the other team a 4 on 5 power play on defense. The amazing thing about Boothe is not that he can't shoot it is his lack of passing skills. I know  we run the stand around the perimeter offenseand I know he is only 4-11, but Boothe can't penetrate and dish.
Defensively Boothe's man goes by him regularly. That has been the most shocking thing about his play. .

I didn't say anything about what Boothe does well or doesn't so well, whether he can shoot, whether he can't, how tall he is, how short he is, whether he can shoot free throws, whether he can penetrate, whether he plays defense, whether its 4 on 5 or 3 on 5 or 2 on 5 when he's in there. What I said was that if you don't see how much better the team plays when he's in the game, you are not paying attention. If the PU debacle and the second half of the UL didn't disabuse you of the Hardy plays the point theory, I don't know what to tell you.

I thought the combination of Hardy and DJ could play the point. Against pressing teams they can't! Against non ball pressure teams I think they can.
The failure to land a halfway decent point guard is Norm's biggest recruiting failure without a doubt!

Quote from: Dave on January 12, 2010, 12:19:01 PM

Quote from: pmg911 on January 12, 2010, 12:10:41 PM

Quote from: Dave on January 12, 2010, 12:03:55 PM

Quote from: pmg911 on January 12, 2010, 11:56:07 AM

Quote from: TONYD3 on January 11, 2010, 09:48:07 PM

We have and play 12 players. Our second team is not really worse then our 1st team. If I was coach I would press and trap all game. Norm is playing everyone anyway. Depth wont be an issue and we have some really athletic players.

It would be one thing if our guards were quick enough but we are playing against teams that are faster then we are, pressing them will not work to any advantage.

You don't think our guards are quick enough? I disagree and I also have been an advocate of pressing full court more. All we do is have our PG defend the full length of the court which slows down their offensive flow but also wears our PG out

Our gaurds are not quick enough to press all game...

Did you see any of Nova - L'ville game last night...   those type of guards can press all night, not the guys we have playing for St. John's.

I think you don't give our guys enough credit sometime. We have athletes and the bodies we need. Also you're telling me an Ivy league team can't run an effective press?

Not sure what this means..

If you you are saying Ivy League kids are slow..    then yes, their press will be less effective then quicker & faster players.

Yes basically I was equating that to inferior athletes. I disagree because with proper scheming, timing, and rotation a press can be very effective especially in different situations.

I thought the combination of Hardy and DJ could play the point. Against pressing teams they can't! Against non ball pressure teams I think they can.

They played bwn 5 and 10 minutes in the second half vs UL without a point guard. If we scored a point I don't remember it. In fact, the only time they threw the ball inside all game was then, when they had three shooting guards. It's offensive genius.

The failure to land a halfway decent point guard is Norm's biggest recruiting failure without a doubt!

I will respond to yet another non sequitur, but its the last one this week: I disagree. Boothe is at least halfway decent.