Program NegativeTurning Points

Asisde from obvious mistake in hiring Norm, some turns in the road over the years, however modest, include;
* Losing McCloud from St. Anthony's to Duke after foolishly deferring to Charles Minlend.
* Alienating Bob Hurley with the Ingrahm debacle.
* Failure to bring in savy assistants and retain Kimani.
* Letting the Lapchick tournament disintegrate into a pathetic affair.
*Waiting to let David Cain blossom until senior year.
*Jarvis flirting with Wizards, staying and costing us Jay wright potentailly.
* Failure to embrace three point shooting strategies for many years, constantly recruiting slashers over shooters.
* Inability to pull any poteial out of a cast of big men through the years.
* Recently not realizing kids love the perks of being on SJU recruiting list, but really can't take the risk of playing for Norm and abandoning NBA dreams, no matter how unrealistic. Thus, we focus on big fish, like Sylvan, Lance, Jones (WV), Collier, Moore, etc.

Would love to list some positive turns in the road, but that is a tough task.
 

Asisde from obvious mistake in hiring Norm, some turns in the road over the years, however modest, include;
* Losing McCloud from St. Anthony's to Duke after foolishly deferring to Charles Minlend.
* Alienating Bob Hurley with the Ingrahm debacle.
* Failure to bring in savy assistants and retain Kimani.
* Letting the Lapchick tournament disintegrate into a pathetic affair.
*Waiting to let David Cain blossom until senior year.
*Jarvis flirting with Wizards, staying and costing us Jay wright potentailly.
* Failure to embrace three point shooting strategies for many years, constantly recruiting slashers over shooters.
* Inability to pull any poteial out of a cast of big men through the years.
* Recently not realizing kids love the perks of being on SJU recruiting list, but really can't take the risk of playing for Norm and abandoning NBA dreams, no matter how unrealistic. Thus, we focus on big fish, like Sylvan, Lance, Jones (WV), Collier, Moore, etc.

Would love to list some positive turns in the road, but that is a tough task.

I would say, you have a pretty decent list, paultzman.  Do you think St. John's really alienated Bob Hurley, Sr. with the Ingram situation?  I've heard stories that we did and others that we didn't.  I do not know enough about the Hurley's issues or non-issues with St. John's to say one way or the other.

I definitely agree with you about the "saavy assistants and the retaining of Kimani...."  I was hoping we would retain Young, but we all know how that turned out.  Along, with losing out on some key recruits.

Ahhhhhhh!  The Lapchick Tournament....  I knew it was basketball season when the Lapchick Tournament rolled around.  The Johnnies were able to attract, at least, one pretty decent team to play (in the tournament) of the namesake of their legendary coach. 

I guess due to more tournaments nowadays then 15-20 years ago and the Johnnies falling out of the national spotlight (until the rebirth from 1997-2000) was probably a downfall to the Lapchick Tournament.

"Failure to embrace three point shooting strategies for many years, constantly recruiting slashers over shooters."

IMO, this is something I haven't been able to grasp since the indoctrine of the 3-point line....  Granted, the Johnnies have had players who were very, capable of hitting the 3-ball (ie, Boo Harvey, Thornton, Postell, Artest, Barkley, Shaw, Minlend (sr. season) ) over the years....  They never had a sharpshooter or two....  You see some teams (especially, mid major teams) and they have a sniper, semi-sniper and a couple of other guys who are capable of burning 'ya from deep.

We've never had such thing since the NCAA put the 3-point line in place.  We've had several coaches, who've been in place at St. John's, to not bring in a player of that ilk.

Hopefully, the next coach is able to do such a thing.  Last, but not least....  There haven't been many positives (a few) of the past 10-15 years, paultzman.

Granted, the Johnnies have had players who were very, capable of hitting the 3-ball (ie, Boo Harvey, Thornton, Postell, Artest, Barkley, Shaw, Minlend (sr. season) ) 

Avery "3 point record-holder" Patterson.  Duuh!

I have one question, that a lot of you will comment on.  How come for such a storied program have we not had a big time coach since Louie was there?   

Here are my thoughts and I will let you guys discuss.  I truly believe Louie does not allow this.  He is involved in all the decision making for this program and it is even rumored he was the one that did not want calipari when the job was open before norm.  Now I understand that Cal cheats but has to make me wonder if Cal wanted the job a few years ago how many other big named coaches wanted it as well. 

One more thought on why we lose great kids not like before.  The program has always lost kids from the city to other places.  Our area(ny, NJ and conn) are a hot bed for recruiting so we are going to lose some its just that we were always able to keep some great ones too so no one really said anything.  I think one major negative that hurt us as well was, before we put in dorms we were the only school in America that allowed a stipend to the players so they could live off campus and afford it.   What kid coming out of high school wouldnt want a 1500 dollar a month allowance?  Now, because of the dorms we do not give out the stipend and our facilities do not wow anyone to coming by us. 

Just a few thoughts.

When Lou was here, he wasn't paid like a John Calipari or a Jim Calhoun was paid. He was a local guy who wanted THIS job.

Norm seemed like he'd be a younger version of Lou. In some ways he is. He is respectful of the media, and the fans.

The similarities, as we all know end there.

I don't blame SJU for giving Mahoney a chance.
It was the classy thing to do. He didn't have it,
and it was a shame because he's a very nice guy.

Fran was nuts. He brought in talent, but he couldn't
organize it enough to win a game in the dance with seniors,
3 McD's, and 3 or 4 additional top 100-150 players.

Jarvis was good at a number of things, and shockingly enough
his personality was his biggest problem at first. At GW, he was a class act.
Here, he's a abrasive, uneducated, power hungry and out of control.

As far as Cain goes, I loved the year he gave us under Mahoney,
but I remember Lou giving him chances and he couldn't hang onto the ball.
Jason B wasn't Kenny Anderson, but he was solid. He earned his spot in the line up. 

1. Hiring Norm
2. Firing Jarvis mid-season
3. Keeping Norm
4. Keeping Norm
5. Keeping Norm
6. Keeping Norm

Isn't a real negative turning point bus as I watch the duke fla. St game imagine if derwin kitchen would have stayed @ st johns..he looks(in this game) as if he could have been a pg for us..I wonder how we would have turned out had him quaraan calhoun larry wright would have stuck around..things probably wouldn't have been toooo different I did like how calhoun played..

I would say, you have a pretty decent list, paultzman.  Do you think St. John's really alienated Bob Hurley, Sr. with the Ingram situation?  I've heard stories that we did and others that we didn't.  I do not know enough about the Hurley's issues or non-issues with St. John's to say one way or the other.

If you read the book about Hurley and St. Anthony - Miracle at St. Anthony - he doesn't specifically say that St. John's alienated him but he does talk about the Ingram indicent and says something along the lines of -   If one of our kids comes back from a school and says the school didn't so the right thing by them, that school is dead to us and we will not send players there in the future - .  We haven't gotten a St. Anthony player since.

That was not an exact quote but I think this past recruiting season says alot to the point. St. Anthony has three players who play for Kimani at New Heights and St. Anthony - none of them signed with St. John's and we were recruiting all three at one point.

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 27, 2010, 04:13:29 PM

I would say, you have a pretty decent list, paultzman.  Do you think St. John's really alienated Bob Hurley, Sr. with the Ingram situation?  I've heard stories that we did and others that we didn't.  I do not know enough about the Hurley's issues or non-issues with St. John's to say one way or the other.

If you read the book about Hurley and St. Anthony - Miracle at St. Anthony - he doesn't specifically say that St. John's alienated him but he does talk about the Ingram indicent and says something along the lines of -   If one of our kids comes back from a school and says the school didn't so the right thing by them, that school is dead to us and we will not send players there in the future - .  We haven't gotten a St. Anthony player since.

That was not an exact quote but I think this past recruiting season says alot to the point. St. Anthony has three players who play for Kimani at New Heights and St. Anthony - none of them signed with St. John's and we were recruiting all three at one point.

I'm a little confused.  What did we do thatg was "not right by Elijah?"  My recollection was he was one of the individuals who had sex with the hooker and did not pay her.  We are a Catholic institution.  This was obviously a major offense.  What else could we do?  am I missing something?

Quote from: pmg911 on January 28, 2010, 11:21:47 AM

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 27, 2010, 04:13:29 PM

I would say, you have a pretty decent list, paultzman.  Do you think St. John's really alienated Bob Hurley, Sr. with the Ingram situation?  I've heard stories that we did and others that we didn't.  I do not know enough about the Hurley's issues or non-issues with St. John's to say one way or the other.

If you read the book about Hurley and St. Anthony - Miracle at St. Anthony - he doesn't specifically say that St. John's alienated him but he does talk about the Ingram indicent and says something along the lines of -   If one of our kids comes back from a school and says the school didn't so the right thing by them, that school is dead to us and we will not send players there in the future - .  We haven't gotten a St. Anthony player since.

That was not an exact quote but I think this past recruiting season says alot to the point. St. Anthony has three players who play for Kimani at New Heights and St. Anthony - none of them signed with St. John's and we were recruiting all three at one point.

I'm a little confused.  What did we do thatg was "not right by Elijah?"  My recollection was he was one of the individuals who had sex with the hooker and did not pay her.  We are a Catholic institution.  This was obviously a major offense.  What else could we do?  am I missing something?

You beat me to the punch. Besides Hurley should spend less time complaining about SJU and more time trying to figure out how come his players flame out in the pros.
In addition to having an even worse looking jumper than Avery Patterson Ingram is number 3 on my worst point guards who played a lot list.
1. Geno
2. Gary Coleman
3. Ingram

no Tarik Turnover?

no Tarik Turnover?

Besides the fact that he is a good dude, he was a starting point guard on an NCAA team. So he does not crack the top/bottom three

Quote from: Tha Kid on January 28, 2010, 11:29:08 AM

Quote from: pmg911 on January 28, 2010, 11:21:47 AM

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 27, 2010, 04:13:29 PM

I would say, you have a pretty decent list, paultzman.  Do you think St. John's really alienated Bob Hurley, Sr. with the Ingram situation?  I've heard stories that we did and others that we didn't.  I do not know enough about the Hurley's issues or non-issues with St. John's to say one way or the other.

If you read the book about Hurley and St. Anthony - Miracle at St. Anthony - he doesn't specifically say that St. John's alienated him but he does talk about the Ingram indicent and says something along the lines of -   If one of our kids comes back from a school and says the school didn't so the right thing by them, that school is dead to us and we will not send players there in the future - .  We haven't gotten a St. Anthony player since.

That was not an exact quote but I think this past recruiting season says alot to the point. St. Anthony has three players who play for Kimani at New Heights and St. Anthony - none of them signed with St. John's and we were recruiting all three at one point.

I'm a little confused.  What did we do thatg was "not right by Elijah?"  My recollection was he was one of the individuals who had sex with the hooker and did not pay her.  We are a Catholic institution.  This was obviously a major offense.  What else could we do?  am I missing something?

You beat me to the punch. Besides Hurley should spend less time complaining about SJU and more time trying to figure out how come his players flame out in the pros.
In addition to having an even worse looking jumper than Avery Patterson Ingram is number 3 on my worst point guards who played a lot list.
1. Geno
2. Gary Coleman
3. Ingram

Worry about flaming out in the pros..? Do you really think that is his concern..?

He helps kids, who might otherwise end up in bad sitautions on the streets, get a free college education.

As for the Ingram situation, I guess he is just being loyal to his kids. It wasn't like the other guy that came through St. John's from St. Anthony, McLeod, had a great experience either.

Also, if you were high level coach like Hurley, would you trust Norm Roberts to develop a player you send to him.

Quote from: boo3 on January 28, 2010, 11:47:41 AM

no Tarik Turnover?

Besides the fact that he is a good dude, he was a starting point guard on an NCAA team. So he does not crack the top/bottom three

good point. 

I'm a little confused.  What did we do thatg was "not right by Elijah?"  My recollection was he was one of the individuals who had sex with the hooker and did not pay her.  We are a Catholic institution.  This was obviously a major offense.  What else could we do?  am I missing something?

See, now that's the rub for me.  I think the real turning point in the program was completely overreacting to a small pay scandal and a bunch of dudes without supervision who were caught up in something unsavory.  You know what? They didn't commit a crime.  Morally iffy?  Sure.  Criminal? No.  But after that, Harrington starts talking about the "culture" of the program without acknowledging that he's the one who booted the head coach and left the team with a weak interim guy in place. 

And Ingram was vilified for his role in what happened - put on blast, as they say.  And rightfully so, that's some shady stuff to be in. Hurley's right if he thinks St. John's overreacted, but he's also terribly petty to think the school shouldn't have reacted, or should have given him a warm hug and reinstated him.  I am sure the school could have kissed the Hurley ring and been better about how they dealt with Ingram - did he receive disciplinary charges before transferring?  I think so - but recent history has introduced the idea that maybe the Hurleys are too involved with what's good for their players when it's at odds with the good of the schools involved (see: Fordham, see: sending kids to Rutgers).

Morally iffy?  Sure.  Criminal? No. 

Leaving aside that you find gang bangs "morally iffy," soliciting is a crime in PA:


§ 5902: Prostitution and related offenses [...]

(e) Patronizing prostitutes.--A person commits the offense of patronizing prostitutes if that person hires a prostitute or any other person to engage in sexual activity with him or her or if that person enters or remains in a house of prostitution for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity.

Asisde from obvious mistake in hiring Norm, some turns in the road over the years, however modest, include;
* Losing McCloud from St. Anthony's to Duke after foolishly deferring to Charles Minlend.
* Alienating Bob Hurley with the Ingrahm debacle.
* Failure to bring in savy assistants and retain Kimani.
* Letting the Lapchick tournament disintegrate into a pathetic affair.
*Waiting to let David Cain blossom until senior year.
*Jarvis flirting with Wizards, staying and costing us Jay wright potentailly.
* Failure to embrace three point shooting strategies for many years, constantly recruiting slashers over shooters.
* Inability to pull any poteial out of a cast of big men through the years.
* Recently not realizing kids love the perks of being on SJU recruiting list, but really can't take the risk of playing for Norm and abandoning NBA dreams, no matter how unrealistic. Thus, we focus on big fish, like Sylvan, Lance, Jones (WV), Collier, Moore, etc.

Would love to list some positive turns in the road, but that is a tough task.

C'mon now. Some of these aint legit.

1. Losing Roshown hurt. But Charles was a straight up warrior who deserve his mins on the court. Brother could play on my team 24/7.

2. Man, what was you gonna do wit Elijah? He and the others straight up embarrass the school. Can't have one rule for some (just cause he a St. A's kid) and not the others.

3. Failure to retain Kimani? Brother, do you even know why he left? Trust me, he'd rather still be there than evrytin that went down in his life. Had nuthin to do wit the job and evrytin to do wit his fams, God bless them.

4. The Lapchick Tourney aint disintigrate into nuthin. It was straight up low-level gimmies from day one.

5. David Cain was a revelation, no doubt. But he wudn't all the good til then and he was playin behind Boo and Jason Buchanan. Aint like he playin behind (nah, aint gonna say it).

6. No doubt.

7. No doubt.

8. Gotta recruit talent to develop talent.

9. No doubt.

Wow good list and lots of good points...
1. Our current assistant coaches have never been D1 caliber. Norm brought his buddies and refuses to whack them. Chuckie Martin is the only one to move on to a head coaching level, while Braica and Casey aren't worth the ink their names are printed with.

If the Zen Master himself, Phil Jackson, can recognize that Tex Winters was a better X and O guy then himself...If Calhoun can bring in George Blaney...if countless other head coaches can bring in experienced X and O guys...then wtf!

2. Maybe Louie and his crew have too much to say about who gets hired. Granted Calipari is dirty as the day is long but he did want to be here. Rutledge and his "can't recruit 125th street" comment about another candidate? Mahoney, like Norm, had a losing record in a previous head coaching stint...so that was the guy we went with.

3. I see alot of other Catholic schools that had black eyes doing pretty well. Gary McClain admitting he was coked up during the 1985 season. So does Nova just pull the plug on being competitive? Boston College had game fixing going on in the early 1980s. Did they stop putting a competitive product on the court? How many other programs have had violations, shrug it off, and keep moving forward? Not St Johns, thats for sure.

4. These AAU guys smell blood in the water and know its SJU and Norm DOA. Nobody is sending a kid here until they see SJU has a professional staff with a record of sending kids to the NBA or at least see kids who develop. This situation has proven itself incapable of either.

I promised myself I wouldn't get too involved anymore, sorry for the rant to my fellow readers...no apologies to Harrington though

I threw up when we lost to Cal Irvine.
I suppose if try to schedule cup cakes and they beat you, you deserve to lose on your own court.

Quote from: peter on January 28, 2010, 12:01:10 PM

Morally iffy?  Sure.  Criminal? No. 

Leaving aside that you find gang bangs "morally iffy," soliciting is a crime in PA:


§ 5902: Prostitution and related offenses [...]

(e) Patronizing prostitutes.--A person commits the offense of patronizing prostitutes if that person hires a prostitute or any other person to engage in sexual activity with him or her or if that person enters or remains in a house of prostitution for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity.

Ah. haven't been around enough hookers.

But the players weren't charged with any criminal offense, as I remember it.  She was.  If they just bring a woman to the hotel for sex, it's unsavory; if they didn't intend to pay her, is it still prostitution?