Attracting Kids and Pro Desires

Short and simple, most good HS prospects want a team that has won consistently, has an uptempo, exciting style of play, good coaching and a record of sending kids to the pros. Fair or not look at that last issue and compare real pro prospects on BE rivals rosters and ours. Striking and a real detriment! Even Rutgers has two pro prospects, the shot blocker and the rookie will probably get a taste of the NBA. Just my opinion, but run through the other teams and compare.

Short and simple, most good HS prospects want a team that has won consistently, has an uptempo, exciting style of play, good coaching and a record of sending kids to the pros. Fair or not look at that last issue and compare real pro prospects on BE rivals rosters and ours. Striking and a real detriment! Even Rutgers has two pro prospects, the shot blocker and the rookie will probably get a taste of the NBA. Just my opinion, but run through the other teams and compare.

If it is true that (a) good HS prospects want a team that wins consistently, has good coaching, etc and if it is true that (b) every team in the BE, even Rutgers, has pro prospects, and if it is true that (c) most pro prospects in college are good prospects in HS, then it follows that (d) every team in the BE wins consistently, has good coaching, etc - otherwise good HS prospects would have gone elsewhere. Since (d) is obviously false - Fred Hill is not a good coach, De Paul does not win consistently, Marquette does not play up tempo - then one of your premises must be false.

(Despite which I agree more or less with your conclusion about the talent disparity between SJ and the upper half of the conference.)

Quote from: paultzman on February 25, 2010, 11:12:57 AM

Short and simple, most good HS prospects want a team that has won consistently, has an uptempo, exciting style of play, good coaching and a record of sending kids to the pros. Fair or not look at that last issue and compare real pro prospects on BE rivals rosters and ours. Striking and a real detriment! Even Rutgers has two pro prospects, the shot blocker and the rookie will probably get a taste of the NBA. Just my opinion, but run through the other teams and compare.

If it is true that (a) good HS prospects want a team that wins consistently, has good coaching, etc and if it is true that (b) every team in the BE, even Rutgers, has pro prospects, and if it is true that (c) most pro prospects in college are good prospects in HS, then it follows that (d) every team in the BE wins consistently, has good coaching, etc - otherwise good HS prospects would have gone elsewhere. Since (d) is obviously false - Fred Hill is not a good coach, De Paul does not win consistently, Marquette does not play up tempo - then one of your premises must be false.

(Despite which I agree more or less with your conclusion about the talent disparity between SJ and the upper half of the conference.)

For the most part I don't blame Norm for the recruiting. ST John's has too many drawbacks to ever be a big player for top talent anymore. My problem with Norm is the way he puts together his roster and the roster inbalance. With that being said, even a good coach would struggle with this roster's deficiencies at the point, center and shooting.

Quote from: Foad on February 25, 2010, 11:33:50 AM

Quote from: paultzman on February 25, 2010, 11:12:57 AM

Short and simple, most good HS prospects want a team that has won consistently, has an uptempo, exciting style of play, good coaching and a record of sending kids to the pros. Fair or not look at that last issue and compare real pro prospects on BE rivals rosters and ours. Striking and a real detriment! Even Rutgers has two pro prospects, the shot blocker and the rookie will probably get a taste of the NBA. Just my opinion, but run through the other teams and compare.

If it is true that (a) good HS prospects want a team that wins consistently, has good coaching, etc and if it is true that (b) every team in the BE, even Rutgers, has pro prospects, and if it is true that (c) most pro prospects in college are good prospects in HS, then it follows that (d) every team in the BE wins consistently, has good coaching, etc - otherwise good HS prospects would have gone elsewhere. Since (d) is obviously false - Fred Hill is not a good coach, De Paul does not win consistently, Marquette does not play up tempo - then one of your premises must be false.

(Despite which I agree more or less with your conclusion about the talent disparity between SJ and the upper half of the conference.)

For the most part I don't blame Norm for the recruiting. ST John's has too many drawbacks to ever be a big player for top talent anymore. My problem with Norm is the way he puts together his roster and the roster inbalance. With that being said, even a good coach would struggle with this roster's deficiencies at the point, center and shooting.

I've heard that argument before. I have a question for you or anyone that would to answer it. If the facilities, academics and lousy campus are such a drawback, why is not affecting the other sports programs at SJU?

You can play soccer for the University of Virginia if you like, and with it, you can have beautiful scenery, and a top flight education. Our poor facilities don't seem to have prevented any of the women's basketball players from choosing SJU.

And if facilities, are your reason for choosing a college, I hope for your sake you make it to the NBA, because clearly, you are too stupid to do anything else.

I've heard that argument before. I have a question for you or anyone that would to answer it. If the facilities, academics and lousy campus are such a drawback, why is not affecting the other sports programs at SJU?

You can play soccer for the University of Virginia if you like, and with it, you can have beautiful scenery, and a top flight education. Our poor facilities don't seem to have prevented any of the women's basketball players from choosing SJU.

At least partly because: the size and quality of the facilities are less important in other sports (eg Marquette draws 16K fans per home game in basketball, so they need a gym that holds 16K fans, whereas the SJ fencing team doesn't); the competition for players is less intense in sports other than football and BB; players in lesser sports have less of a sense of entitlement to good facilities. You might as well ask why Kentucky doesn't deliver bags of cash to the members of the lacrosse team.

Quote from: Poison on February 25, 2010, 12:04:10 PM

I've heard that argument before. I have a question for you or anyone that would to answer it. If the facilities, academics and lousy campus are such a drawback, why is not affecting the other sports programs at SJU?

You can play soccer for the University of Virginia if you like, and with it, you can have beautiful scenery, and a top flight education. Our poor facilities don't seem to have prevented any of the women's basketball players from choosing SJU.

At least partly because: the size and quality of the facilities are less important in other sports (eg Marquette draws 16K fans per home game in basketball, so they need a gym that holds 16K fans, whereas the SJ fencing team doesn't); the competition for players is less intense in sports other than football and BB; players in lesser sports have less of a sense of entitlement to good facilities. You might as well ask why Kentucky doesn't deliver bags of cash to the members of the lacrosse team.

We play in MSG. That's a pretty good facility to me.

My opoint is that when SJU uses the "lack of facilities" as an excuse for losing recruits,
they are full of it. They are just looking for a hand out.

I wonder, what are Temple's facilities like?

Quote from: Foad on February 25, 2010, 12:19:11 PM

Quote from: Poison on February 25, 2010, 12:04:10 PM

I've heard that argument before. I have a question for you or anyone that would to answer it. If the facilities, academics and lousy campus are such a drawback, why is not affecting the other sports programs at SJU?

You can play soccer for the University of Virginia if you like, and with it, you can have beautiful scenery, and a top flight education. Our poor facilities don't seem to have prevented any of the women's basketball players from choosing SJU.

At least partly because: the size and quality of the facilities are less important in other sports (eg Marquette draws 16K fans per home game in basketball, so they need a gym that holds 16K fans, whereas the SJ fencing team doesn't); the competition for players is less intense in sports other than football and BB; players in lesser sports have less of a sense of entitlement to good facilities. You might as well ask why Kentucky doesn't deliver bags of cash to the members of the lacrosse team.

We play in MSG. That's a pretty good facility to me.

My opoint is that when SJU uses the "lack of facilities" as an excuse for losing recruits,
they are full of it. They are just looking for a hand out.

I wonder, what are Temple's facilities like?

Facilities are just one of the problems. No offense to any of the alumni on this board but the area is not anything to brag about and either is the campus. The coed situation is also lacking. Lastly the team has now been irrelevant for going on 8 years. The last guys we sent to the pros Barkley, Postall and Cook lasted 5 minutes.Big time basketball recruits unlike other sports ALWAYS go to a school with an eye towrds playing professionally. That is not an option at SJU. Well unless you want to play for the Borat all-stars in Khakistan like Geno. 

Has Temple brought in a lot talent that a number of Big East teams say "damn, if only I coulda had him!" They and St. Josephs bring in good talent, not great and known talent, not the guys that get Scout.com and other recruiting sites writing pages of copy over.

The Temple facilities argument doesn't hold here. 

Has Temple brought in a lot talent that a number of Big East teams say "damn, if only I coulda had him!" They and St. Josephs bring in good talent, not great and known talent, not the guys that get Scout.com and other recruiting sites writing pages of copy over.

The Temple facilities argument doesn't hold here.

I am not saying we couldn't recruit better and we def could recruit with a better plan and roster building. But we are never going to be a team that could afford to have a coach just roll the balls out and compete. If we get a good game coach with a recruiting plan to fit his style of play, I think we could at least have the hope of making an NCAA every year. At the minimum any coach outside of Fred Hill would make us more watchable. Get a solid coach with a recruiting plan and you get lucky once in awhile with a stay at home player and you could have a special team.

Has Temple brought in a lot talent that a number of Big East teams say "damn, if only I coulda had him!" They and St. Josephs bring in good talent, not great and known talent, not the guys that get Scout.com and other recruiting sites writing pages of copy over.

The Temple facilities argument doesn't hold here.

Peter, I think it's a valid comparison.

It's a city school that has to compete with Nova for top local talent. Their campus isn't selling anything. It's much worse than ours. They get talented kids because Fran Dunphy has continued to build on a style that was already established. 

They play the same kind of basketball now that they've played for decades.

People that call them a mid major are nuts. They play at a high major level, and they do it every year. Mid majors don't drop 40 points on a top 5 team on the road. I don't care what anyone says about their recruiting. They just gave up 41 points in one game to a bubble team.

That's ridiculous.

norm really highlighted what a joke it was for stjohns to be scouted by nba teams when bt was on campus a week ago. the guy asked him a question regarding how dj's game could fit in the nba and norm goes off on this crazy speech about how paris, jb, dj, hardy, and EVANS deserve a "hard look by nba scouts."

way to sell out the one guy who has overcome your shitty coaching to have a shot at being drafted.

Quote from: peter on February 25, 2010, 12:47:41 PM

Has Temple brought in a lot talent that a number of Big East teams say "damn, if only I coulda had him!" They and St. Josephs bring in good talent, not great and known talent, not the guys that get Scout.com and other recruiting sites writing pages of copy over.

The Temple facilities argument doesn't hold here.

Peter, I think it's a valid comparison.

It's a city school that has to compete with Nova for top local talent. Their campus isn't selling anything. It's much worse than ours. They get talented kids because Fran Dunphy has continued to build on a style that was already established. 

They play the same kind of basketball now that they've played for decades.

People that call them a mid major are nuts. They play at a high major level, and they do it every year. Mid majors don't drop 40 points on a top 5 team on the road. I don't care what anyone says about their recruiting. They just gave up 41 points in one game to a bubble team.

That's ridiculous.

I see your point about Temple also being a city school, but I think they are recruiting from a different pool of athletes - one that sometimes intersects but not always.  After some lean-ish years, Jay Wright recruited some top NY area players and some NJ players.  I won't check up on this so tell me if I'm wrong - were any of his players in the first few years from PA? Buchanan, Sumpter, Nardi, Foye, Ray, Fraser, I'm forgetting a few...

Now he's NJ and national.  That's not the pool of players Temple is drawing from. 

Their campus is likely worse than St. John's.  But they're competing against the non-Nova Big-5 schools, the mid-level Jersey schools and mid Atlantic schools.  They're selling a strong and sustained style of gritty play, and look at their roster - guys from the Virgin Islands, Nigeria, Israel, Argentina - they're fishing everywhere for talent.  It's a different recruiting game.

And they might be a major program, like a few others in the A-10, but they're not competing with the upper Big East teams for talent.  If a kid they like wants to be at Louisville, and Louisville or 'Nova or U Conn wants him, that kid's off the board.  I respect Temple. Just don't think they're all that similar.  We can agree to disagree.

Quote from: Poison on February 25, 2010, 01:09:50 PM

Quote from: peter on February 25, 2010, 12:47:41 PM

Has Temple brought in a lot talent that a number of Big East teams say "damn, if only I coulda had him!" They and St. Josephs bring in good talent, not great and known talent, not the guys that get Scout.com and other recruiting sites writing pages of copy over.

The Temple facilities argument doesn't hold here.

Peter, I think it's a valid comparison.

It's a city school that has to compete with Nova for top local talent. Their campus isn't selling anything. It's much worse than ours. They get talented kids because Fran Dunphy has continued to build on a style that was already established. 

They play the same kind of basketball now that they've played for decades.

People that call them a mid major are nuts. They play at a high major level, and they do it every year. Mid majors don't drop 40 points on a top 5 team on the road. I don't care what anyone says about their recruiting. They just gave up 41 points in one game to a bubble team.

That's ridiculous.

I see your point about Temple also being a city school, but I think they are recruiting from a different pool of athletes - one that sometimes intersects but not always.  After some lean-ish years, Jay Wright recruited some top NY area players and some NJ players.  I won't check up on this so tell me if I'm wrong - were any of his players in the first few years from PA? Buchanan, Sumpter, Nardi, Foye, Ray, Fraser, I'm forgetting a few...

Now he's NJ and national.  That's not the pool of players Temple is drawing from. 

Their campus is likely worse than St. John's.  But they're competing against the non-Nova Big-5 schools, the mid-level Jersey schools and mid Atlantic schools.  They're selling a strong and sustained style of gritty play, and look at their roster - guys from the Virgin Islands, Nigeria, Israel, Argentina - they're fishing everywhere for talent.  It's a different recruiting game.

And they might be a major program, like a few others in the A-10, but they're not competing with the upper Big East teams for talent.  If a kid they like wants to be at Louisville, and Louisville or 'Nova or U Conn wants him, that kid's off the board.  I respect Temple. Just don't think they're all that similar.  We can agree to disagree.

Is there any program that are closer to in campus and style of play? They have the same benefits to sell as we do, and that's where the programs should be compared.

Talent coming out of Philly doesn't routinely choose Temple, but like we used to say here, at least we get ours some of the time. We never got them all. If there is a Richard Hamilton type of talent coming out of Philly, or an Allen Iverson, everyone is on them.

Temple got itself one of the best and newest arenas in the Northeast. Facilities is golden compared.

Temple got itself one of the best and newest arenas in the Northeast. Facilities is golden compared.

And the neighborhood the school is in? Better chance of knifed at Temple than at SJU.