Business of Game Quells Thrill [NY Times]

I know I'm jacking a lot of this article, but this is important, and curious to read.  Nice of NY Times' Rhoden to put Boeheim on blast.  Riiight, he doesn't know what "bend the rules" means.  And note that Boeheim works in a "you have to get to the tournament to keep your job," which is an oblique reference to his stumping for the expansion of the Tournament to 96 teams.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/sports/ncaabasketball/22rhoden.html

Before Syracuse took on Gonzaga, Boeheim reflected on the firing of Coach Norm Roberts last week after six seasons at St. John’s. Roberts, regarded as one of the gentlemen of the Big East, was hired to pull the Red Storm from the ashes after the Mike Jarvis  era.

“I know he’s a great guy; he’s as good a guy as anybody I’ve known in the league,” Boeheim said. “I have tremendous respect for him. The reality is in this business, wherever you coach, if you don’t go to the N.C.A.A. tournament, you are not going to keep your job. Period.”

Roberts never did.

Boeheim simply reminded us of the realities of the game. A more troubling assessment was offered by Russell Smith, the coach of the New York Gauchos, one of the major arteries in New York’s Amateur Athletic Union scene.

Smith essentially criticized Roberts for being too laid-back, for not playing the game. “You got to hustle, bend some rules or do something,” Smith said....

For a coach with integrity, bending the rules is problematic. Can you win without operating in a gray area?

You have to talk to A.A.U. coaches, Boeheim said. “That doesn’t mean you have to go in a gray area — I don’t even know what that means,” he said. “Bend the rules, I don’t know what that is. You can’t bend the rules; you either break it or you don’t. There is not bending to me. You either do or don’t.”

There is a story told of the time this season that Roberts met with a McDonald’s all-American from New York about attending St. John’s. Roberts told the recruit that he would play behind the incumbent, and the recruit’s mother, who was in the meeting, hit the ceiling.

Kenny Charles, a major figure in the New York City youth basketball scene, said Roberts should have told the recruit that in all likelihood he would be starting. “You could say that’s bending the rules because typically a coach won’t say, ‘You’re going to start,’ ” Charles said. “That’s a kid you can bend the rules for without breaking the rules: Look, you come here and you’re starting. That might be bending the rules you normally use, but in that case, that’s what you needed to do.”

haha norm u little saint...i thought bending the rules meant something fishy, something that could lead to ncaa investigations...norm told lance he would back up dj? wtf lol...normie normie normie, u crack me up man...why wouldnt he just tell him he would start?...if we got any all american we would shift around the roster to let him start if we had to...if we got lance of course he starts, and dj can play the 2...i had no idea norm was like that to that scale...this guys job was on the line for the last 3 yrs or so and he wont even tell a little white lie to an all american? guy deserves some sort of medal lol

I'd like to know what McDonald’s All-American doesn't start on our team?

The idea for players is to earn their playing time, not just come in expecting things to be handed to them.  Look at, let's say, Lance (though I think this bit has to be about JayVaughn, since it's this year).  Did you watch Lance play for Cincy?  He didn't deserve a starting job in all games.  In fact, a lot of the time, he didn't look that great.  A player should be earning his starting job.  I would bet the conversation wasn't "you'll be behind this guy," it might have been "you'll have to earn a starting job"... but that's guesswork on my part.

And funny that you two are focused on the "didn't get the McD-AA" and not the look inside what "bend the rules" might mean.

The idea for players is to earn their playing time, not just come in expecting things to be handed to them.  Look at, let's say, Lance (though I think this bit has to be about JayVaughn, since it's this year).  Did you watch Lance play for Cincy?  He didn't deserve a starting job in all games.  In fact, a lot of the time, he didn't look that great.  A player should be earning his starting job.  I would bet the conversation wasn't "you'll be behind this guy," it might have been "you'll have to earn a starting job"... but that's guesswork on my part.

And funny that you two are focused on the "didn't get the McD-AA" and not the look inside what "bend the rules" might mean.

Kids expect to start. Even our lower guys came here because it was a chance to play in the BE, and it was a chance to play. Maybe we have 1 or 2 legit BE starters? The rest wanted to actually play. It's too bad, they're only so good.

Lance Stephenson was, IMOP, the worst player to ever win the BE ROY.
He was careless, and simply can't the shoot the ball.

The good news for Cinci is he might be back because of that. Maybe he's Omar Cook Dumb, and goes pro? Who knows, but my team had a lottery pick, I'd stay far away from him. I bet he'd tear it up in China, though.

The idea for players is to earn their playing time, not just come in expecting things to be handed to them.  Look at, let's say, Lance (though I think this bit has to be about JayVaughn, since it's this year).  Did you watch Lance play for Cincy?  He didn't deserve a starting job in all games.  In fact, a lot of the time, he didn't look that great.  A player should be earning his starting job.  I would bet the conversation wasn't "you'll be behind this guy," it might have been "you'll have to earn a starting job"... but that's guesswork on my part.

And funny that you two are focused on the "didn't get the McD-AA" and not the look inside what "bend the rules" might mean.

Come on Peter.  That's not how this game is played.  St. John's was a CBI team last year.  If you are going after a NYC top talent, you TELL him he's going to start.  If you want to make him "earn it" in practice, fine, but you tell him he's going to start and you start him the first few games until he loses it (which he WOULDNT on this team).  That's DUMB recruiting by a DUMB coach.

Quote from: peter on March 22, 2010, 01:26:43 PM

The idea for players is to earn their playing time, not just come in expecting things to be handed to them.  Look at, let's say, Lance (though I think this bit has to be about JayVaughn, since it's this year).  Did you watch Lance play for Cincy?  He didn't deserve a starting job in all games.  In fact, a lot of the time, he didn't look that great.  A player should be earning his starting job.  I would bet the conversation wasn't "you'll be behind this guy," it might have been "you'll have to earn a starting job"... but that's guesswork on my part.

And funny that you two are focused on the "didn't get the McD-AA" and not the look inside what "bend the rules" might mean.

Come on Peter.  That's not how this game is played.  St. John's was a CBI team last year.  If you are going after a NYC top talent, you TELL him he's going to start.  If you want to make him "earn it" in practice, fine, but you tell him he's going to start and you start him the first few games until he loses it (which he WOULDNT on this team).  That's DUMB recruiting by a DUMB coach.

Exactly. The John Wooden's of the college game are gone. These prissy little girly men need to be made to feel like they are kings. Even as freshman.

Norm was loyal to his guys,nothing wrong with that.

If Pinkston is eligible I would be very suprised. He wont have to worry about starting at his prep school

Quote from: peter on March 22, 2010, 01:26:43 PM

The idea for players is to earn their playing time, not just come in expecting things to be handed to them.  Look at, let's say, Lance (though I think this bit has to be about JayVaughn, since it's this year).  Did you watch Lance play for Cincy?  He didn't deserve a starting job in all games.  In fact, a lot of the time, he didn't look that great.  A player should be earning his starting job.  I would bet the conversation wasn't "you'll be behind this guy," it might have been "you'll have to earn a starting job"... but that's guesswork on my part.

And funny that you two are focused on the "didn't get the McD-AA" and not the look inside what "bend the rules" might mean.

Come on Peter.  That's not how this game is played.  St. John's was a CBI team last year.  If you are going after a NYC top talent, you TELL him he's going to start.  If you want to make him "earn it" in practice, fine, but you tell him he's going to start and you start him the first few games until he loses it (which he WOULDNT on this team).  That's DUMB recruiting by a DUMB coach.

I wouldn't do it - but only out of desperation.  There are probably solid coaches out there (such as Bo Ryan, let's say, and possibly Coach K) who won't promise starting jobs.  I think it's bad practice.  Having players come in with assumptions that they are the new star can be very bad for chemistry...

But in truth, at where St. John's is, you got to make promises that are a little less than genuine.  Consider that such promises may be why some Norm's former players transferred. 

Norm was loyal to his guys,nothing wrong with that.

How loyal was he to Cedric Jackson?  Larry Wright?  Do you want me to keep going?  Norm was NOT a saint.

Quote from: Marco Baldi on March 22, 2010, 03:12:53 PM

Norm was loyal to his guys,nothing wrong with that.

How loyal was he to Cedric Jackson?  Larry Wright?  Do you want me to keep going?  Norm was NOT a saint.

 Sure keep going. The players that stuck around seemed to love him. Rob Thomas is a great example

  I see nothing wrong with promising a McD all-american a starting spot.  Especially at St.John's.  Duke or UNC is a different ballgame, they are all AA's.
  I'd be shocked if Norm told Omari that he would ride the pine as a freshman.

How loyal was he to Cedric Jackson?  Larry Wright?  Do you want me to keep going?  Norm was NOT a saint.

People say that, but do we know what went down (if you do have good info or even relatively credible rumors, I'd love to see)?  Did Norm stop talking to them?  Or did he say he didn't foresee a starting spot for each player?

We make lots of assumptions, but we don't know.  Just food for thought.

Quote from: Tha Kid on March 22, 2010, 04:03:43 PM

How loyal was he to Cedric Jackson?  Larry Wright?  Do you want me to keep going?  Norm was NOT a saint.

People say that, but do we know what went down (if you do have good info or even relatively credible rumors, I'd love to see)?  Did Norm stop talking to them?  Or did he say he didn't foresee a starting spot for each player?

We make lots of assumptions, but we don't know.  Just food for thought.

Cedric Jackson was ALWAYS a better player than Geno lawrence.  Their PT and Norm's reactions to each of them on the bench showed exactly how "loyal" norm was to his non-favorite players. 

He treated Geno as if he was Norm Roberts II and Cedric like a Whipping Boy.